I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

ForumBully

If I said Sorc should be able to strip off all of an enemies armor, gap close to them getting Major Berserk, stun them through block and then pummel them mercilessly...that suggestion might be OP

StaticWave

@Jsmalls
Crushing shock is pressure in the same way that most spammables are. You cast it every GCD to chip away at the target until your burst is lined up. Yes, Crushing Shock deals 3-4k non crit damage, but a crit one can still hit for 5k+ plus other debuffs like Burning and Concussed.

While the damage is mostly negated by healing, it’s still better to apply that pressure whether small or big.

OBJnoob

I'm not worried about buffing sorc at all. It needs to happen. I just don't think their execute is one of their problems.

Incidentally, two of the three OP classes you just named don't have an execute.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm not worried about buffing sorc at all. It needs to happen. I just don't think their execute is one of their problems.

Incidentally, two of the three OP classes you just named don't have an execute.

Agreed, but it's not about an execute, it was about adding a little DoT pressure. On any skill, that isn't a radical suggestions that will tip the current "balance".
I'm pretty much OK with Sorc damage as is, really. With what I've seen on PTS, I'm a fan of the defensive change too and I'd rather see future changes centered around passives and, for the love of all that is good and pure, quit making us double bar pets...an idea who's time has a complete pain since the beginning of the game. How is this still a thing?

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

MetallicMonk

Sorcs do have good pressure, it's easily noted that the two classes that keeping SSC active against is most difficult is DK and sorc because they're generally parsing on your hp and it is hard to stay topped off.

Also Frags is not the ability that needs worked on or changed, frags is good and has always been good, look to our defense and passives/utility for buffs.

I don't want proc frags damage reduced for an insta cast spammable frags, that means your burst would be lower and you wouldn't be able to hold onto frags procs for your burst combo as it would be your spammable and burst ability.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

I’m saying Magsorc has pressure because their burst damage comes in waves (mostly due to Cfrag).

I assume you’re on console so you don’t have access to an addon like CMX that records data of a fight. When I duel a good magsorc like @MetallicMonk, he’s usually dealing 3.5-4k average DPS on me over the course of a long fight, and upwards of 4.5k DPS if he’s in a full damage build. 3.5k is considered good DPS by PvP standards, and anything above 4k DPS is reaching into elite damage territory (what DKs normally have and some builds like Savage WW bowsorc). Most players usually average 2k-2.5k DPS.

If Magsorc was just a burst class, then it wouldn’t be able to deal 4k DPS over the course of a long fight. So, the only possible explanation for this is Magsorc’s burst also acts as pressure because it comes in waves. The same cannot be said about NB. I don’t think I’ve seen a NB have more than 3.5k DPS due to the fact that their burst is so front loaded into 1 ability that when the majority of it gets dodged the DPS isn’t counted by CMX.

Edit: I also specifically said “over the course of a long fight” because DPS is more accurate when measured over a longer duration vs a shorter one. You could have a 6k DPS if you manage to 1 shot someone in 5 seconds, but you probably can’t deal 6k DPS over a 2 minute fight.

Sergykid

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

u r comparing a ranged ability with a melee one, while one has on demand damage while the other has conditions to hit the same. Also class kits add even more variables to an ability.

there's too much attention brought to points that don't need that much attention. A problem needs to be properly pinpointed with invariable data, or the main point risks being lost in clutter

Not exactly, it's only melee or ranged dependent on the weapon.

i meant class, like frags vs conceal or whip

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'd argue this game direction is already lost in the clutter so why not just put our thoughts out there and see which one ZOS lands a dart on next update.

ha nice one, but even though the darts direction is a fun meme, i doubt they don't have an idea what they're doing, they just like silence and secrecy, and dare say pride

Zabagad

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Also Frags is not the ability that needs worked on or changed, frags is good and has always been good, look to our defense and passives/utility for buffs.

I don't want proc frags damage reduced for an insta cast spammable frags, that means your burst would be lower and you wouldn't be able to hold onto frags procs for your burst combo as it would be your spammable and burst ability.

Ty for your thoughts.
Just to make it clear - I was never ever asking to reduce the proc frag damage!
It was all about barspace, but Static said it would be absolutely broken and even if it's not (I'm still not convinced) I'm 100% convinced that ZOS would never implement that in my way, because they look in the same way like Static does.
So any implementation would be nerfed somehow and that's nothing I want at all.

So I'm done with that suggestion

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Also Frags is not the ability that needs worked on or changed, frags is good and has always been good, look to our defense and passives/utility for buffs.

I don't want proc frags damage reduced for an insta cast spammable frags, that means your burst would be lower and you wouldn't be able to hold onto frags procs for your burst combo as it would be your spammable and burst ability.

Ty for your thoughts.
Just to make it clear - I was never ever asking to reduce the proc frag damage!
It was all about barspace, but Static said it would be absolutely broken and even if it's not (I'm still not convinced) I'm 100% convinced that ZOS would never implement that in my way, because they look in the same way like Static does.
So any implementation would be nerfed somehow and that's nothing I want at all.

So I'm done with that suggestion

I think a good compromise for bar space can be Major Savagery/Prophecy in one of the currently slotted abilities. I would argue that Dark Deal could be a decent candidate, provided that the resource return and healing is reduced. Another candidate would be Curse. They could rework Curse to give Major Savagery/Prophecy when slotted.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Also Frags is not the ability that needs worked on or changed, frags is good and has always been good, look to our defense and passives/utility for buffs.

I don't want proc frags damage reduced for an insta cast spammable frags, that means your burst would be lower and you wouldn't be able to hold onto frags procs for your burst combo as it would be your spammable and burst ability.

Ty for your thoughts.
Just to make it clear - I was never ever asking to reduce the proc frag damage!
It was all about barspace, but Static said it would be absolutely broken and even if it's not (I'm still not convinced) I'm 100% convinced that ZOS would never implement that in my way, because they look in the same way like Static does.
So any implementation would be nerfed somehow and that's nothing I want at all.

So I'm done with that suggestion

I think a good compromise for bar space can be Major Savagery/Prophecy in one of the currently slotted abilities. I would argue that Dark Deal could be a decent candidate, provided that the resource return and healing is reduced. Another candidate would be Curse. They could rework Curse to give Major Savagery/Prophecy when slotted.

My bad static, sounds like he was asking for damage to stay the same on the proc and my guess is that would have lead to problems requiring some kind of nerf

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Also Frags is not the ability that needs worked on or changed, frags is good and has always been good, look to our defense and passives/utility for buffs.

I don't want proc frags damage reduced for an insta cast spammable frags, that means your burst would be lower and you wouldn't be able to hold onto frags procs for your burst combo as it would be your spammable and burst ability.

Ty for your thoughts.
Just to make it clear - I was never ever asking to reduce the proc frag damage!
It was all about barspace, but Static said it would be absolutely broken and even if it's not (I'm still not convinced) I'm 100% convinced that ZOS would never implement that in my way, because they look in the same way like Static does.
So any implementation would be nerfed somehow and that's nothing I want at all.

So I'm done with that suggestion

I think a good compromise for bar space can be Major Savagery/Prophecy in one of the currently slotted abilities. I would argue that Dark Deal could be a decent candidate, provided that the resource return and healing is reduced. Another candidate would be Curse. They could rework Curse to give Major Savagery/Prophecy when slotted.

My bad static, sounds like he was asking for damage to stay the same on the proc and my guess is that would have lead to problems requiring some kind of nerf

Oh yea it would lol. A spammable that has a 33% chance to deal 100% extra damage... Most spammables currently hit for 5-6k crits. Imagine if it has a 33% chance to hit for 10-11k crits. Idk lol that would be wayy too strong.

AdamLAD

I'd much prefer frags to have a quicker travel time and increased proc chance. The damage doesn't need altering. Curse doesn't necessarily need any change. Sorcs offensive capabilities arnt the issue, we have an amazing kit for that. Its our defence, Sustain and passives that need reworking

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

I’m saying Magsorc has pressure because their burst damage comes in waves (mostly due to Cfrag).

I assume you’re on console so you don’t have access to an addon like CMX that records data of a fight. When I duel a good magsorc like @MetallicMonk, he’s usually dealing 3.5-4k average DPS on me over the course of a long fight, and upwards of 4.5k DPS if he’s in a full damage build. 3.5k is considered good DPS by PvP standards, and anything above 4k DPS is reaching into elite damage territory (what DKs normally have and some builds like Savage WW bowsorc). Most players usually average 2k-2.5k DPS.

If Magsorc was just a burst class, then it wouldn’t be able to deal 4k DPS over the course of a long fight. So, the only possible explanation for this is Magsorc’s burst also acts as pressure because it comes in waves. The same cannot be said about NB. I don’t think I’ve seen a NB have more than 3.5k DPS due to the fact that their burst is so front loaded into 1 ability that when the majority of it gets dodged the DPS isn’t counted by CMX.

Edit: I also specifically said “over the course of a long fight” because DPS is more accurate when measured over a longer duration vs a shorter one. You could have a 6k DPS if you manage to 1 shot someone in 5 seconds, but you probably can’t deal 6k DPS over a 2 minute fight.

@StaticWave
@MetallicMonk

That entire statistic is dependent on the type of fight it is and which two classes are fighting.... A NB would drag those values down (if they use cloak), a templar would drag it down from purges, a roll heavy class would drag down a projectile setup, DK would drag it down from blocking a lot, etc etc etc

You could do little to no damage for a whole fight and be waiting for an opponent to make a mistake to capitalize. Could be letting them wear out their resources to go offensive. There are so many different ways to play this game that a DPS statistic for PvP can show you some things but definitely not representative of the success of a setup or the player.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

I’m saying Magsorc has pressure because their burst damage comes in waves (mostly due to Cfrag).

I assume you’re on console so you don’t have access to an addon like CMX that records data of a fight. When I duel a good magsorc like @MetallicMonk, he’s usually dealing 3.5-4k average DPS on me over the course of a long fight, and upwards of 4.5k DPS if he’s in a full damage build. 3.5k is considered good DPS by PvP standards, and anything above 4k DPS is reaching into elite damage territory (what DKs normally have and some builds like Savage WW bowsorc). Most players usually average 2k-2.5k DPS.

If Magsorc was just a burst class, then it wouldn’t be able to deal 4k DPS over the course of a long fight. So, the only possible explanation for this is Magsorc’s burst also acts as pressure because it comes in waves. The same cannot be said about NB. I don’t think I’ve seen a NB have more than 3.5k DPS due to the fact that their burst is so front loaded into 1 ability that when the majority of it gets dodged the DPS isn’t counted by CMX.

Edit: I also specifically said “over the course of a long fight” because DPS is more accurate when measured over a longer duration vs a shorter one. You could have a 6k DPS if you manage to 1 shot someone in 5 seconds, but you probably can’t deal 6k DPS over a 2 minute fight.

@StaticWave
@MetallicMonk

That entire statistic is dependent on the type of fight it is and which two classes are fighting.... A NB would drag those values down (if they use cloak), a templar would drag it down from purges, a roll heavy class would drag down a projectile setup, DK would drag it down from blocking a lot, etc etc etc

You could do little to no damage for a whole fight and be waiting for an opponent to make a mistake to capitalize. Could be letting them wear out their resources to go offensive. There are so many different ways to play this game that a DPS statistic for PvP can show you some things but definitely not representative of the success of a setup or the player.

Yea of course, but that doesn’t change the fact that the class still has pressure even though it’s a burst class.

Any form of defense will slightly decrease the DPS, and that includes Streaking from the Sorc. But I have done too many duels against magsorcs with a lot of blocking on my part to conclude that a magsorc with a full damage build will have at least 4k DPS on most players. The only times it doesn’t is when facing an OP class like pre-nerfed Templar.

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

I’m saying Magsorc has pressure because their burst damage comes in waves (mostly due to Cfrag).

I assume you’re on console so you don’t have access to an addon like CMX that records data of a fight. When I duel a good magsorc like @MetallicMonk, he’s usually dealing 3.5-4k average DPS on me over the course of a long fight, and upwards of 4.5k DPS if he’s in a full damage build. 3.5k is considered good DPS by PvP standards, and anything above 4k DPS is reaching into elite damage territory (what DKs normally have and some builds like Savage WW bowsorc). Most players usually average 2k-2.5k DPS.

If Magsorc was just a burst class, then it wouldn’t be able to deal 4k DPS over the course of a long fight. So, the only possible explanation for this is Magsorc’s burst also acts as pressure because it comes in waves. The same cannot be said about NB. I don’t think I’ve seen a NB have more than 3.5k DPS due to the fact that their burst is so front loaded into 1 ability that when the majority of it gets dodged the DPS isn’t counted by CMX.

Edit: I also specifically said “over the course of a long fight” because DPS is more accurate when measured over a longer duration vs a shorter one. You could have a 6k DPS if you manage to 1 shot someone in 5 seconds, but you probably can’t deal 6k DPS over a 2 minute fight.

@StaticWave
@MetallicMonk

That entire statistic is dependent on the type of fight it is and which two classes are fighting.... A NB would drag those values down (if they use cloak), a templar would drag it down from purges, a roll heavy class would drag down a projectile setup, DK would drag it down from blocking a lot, etc etc etc

You could do little to no damage for a whole fight and be waiting for an opponent to make a mistake to capitalize. Could be letting them wear out their resources to go offensive. There are so many different ways to play this game that a DPS statistic for PvP can show you some things but definitely not representative of the success of a setup or the player.

Yeah unfortunately there are a whole lot of variables that go into fights and there's also build and playstyle. I think this is why it's sometimes hard to agree on what to do because people want different aspects of fights to be better and they often base it on what they experience which makes sense of course.

I want sorc to have more of an ability to secure the kill against skilled opponents where you'll likely end up in stalemate or possibly dying to their class just having a better overall kit. I also want sorc to have stronger healing for outnumbered situations which what I look for / run into more often.

But I can admit that if those changes were made then I would also be killing potatoes more easily and sorcs who are far better than me would possibly become nightmares for potatoes and mid tier players alike.

But then you look at dk and nb which are having a field day with top tier defense and offense and say well how does this make sense?

Point being I can truly understand all sides who say it's just fine and those who say we need change because it really depends on what you're looking for as an end result and there's many possible ways that could shake out.

Kali_Despoine

Since I've mained a sorc since 2015 I have nothing to say but,
This is what I remember of sorcs
best shields in the game
toggle abilities we could back bar
overload had it's own bar for execute
hard cast frag had a stun
insta frag really hit hard like on up to 80k
streak for days

now sorc be um I'll just heavy attack

Bushido2513

Kali_Despoine wrote: »

Since I've mained a sorc since 2015 I have nothing to say but,
This is what I remember of sorcs
best shields in the game
toggle abilities we could back bar
overload had it's own bar for execute
hard cast frag had a stun
insta frag really hit hard like on up to 80k
streak for days

now sorc be um I'll just heavy attack

I remember literally thinking seriously can it be this easy to kill other players. I actually put sorc down at one point because it felt like a cheesy win. LONGggggg gone are those days. Now I'm just a shell of myself lol.

Jsmalls

@Kali_Despoine

Yeah you used to put magelight on your overload bar and glitch it so you had more bar space was great. That being said I'll take overload how it is not over how it was then any day.

But honestly the damage wasn't much different back in those times. What was different was people's playstyle. No one ran tanky builds everyone went full damage and played to kill not to survive and run away.

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

With overload (an ultimate) sure we have good pressure (but let's be real overload doesn't always functionally work the best). But you're saying MagSorcs have good pressure when 2/4 of their gcds will be a mediocre ability? Idk....

I’m saying Magsorc has pressure because their burst damage comes in waves (mostly due to Cfrag).

I assume you’re on console so you don’t have access to an addon like CMX that records data of a fight. When I duel a good magsorc like @MetallicMonk, he’s usually dealing 3.5-4k average DPS on me over the course of a long fight, and upwards of 4.5k DPS if he’s in a full damage build. 3.5k is considered good DPS by PvP standards, and anything above 4k DPS is reaching into elite damage territory (what DKs normally have and some builds like Savage WW bowsorc). Most players usually average 2k-2.5k DPS.

If Magsorc was just a burst class, then it wouldn’t be able to deal 4k DPS over the course of a long fight. So, the only possible explanation for this is Magsorc’s burst also acts as pressure because it comes in waves. The same cannot be said about NB. I don’t think I’ve seen a NB have more than 3.5k DPS due to the fact that their burst is so front loaded into 1 ability that when the majority of it gets dodged the DPS isn’t counted by CMX.

Edit: I also specifically said “over the course of a long fight” because DPS is more accurate when measured over a longer duration vs a shorter one. You could have a 6k DPS if you manage to 1 shot someone in 5 seconds, but you probably can’t deal 6k DPS over a 2 minute fight.

@StaticWave
@MetallicMonk

That entire statistic is dependent on the type of fight it is and which two classes are fighting.... A NB would drag those values down (if they use cloak), a templar would drag it down from purges, a roll heavy class would drag down a projectile setup, DK would drag it down from blocking a lot, etc etc etc

You could do little to no damage for a whole fight and be waiting for an opponent to make a mistake to capitalize. Could be letting them wear out their resources to go offensive. There are so many different ways to play this game that a DPS statistic for PvP can show you some things but definitely not representative of the success of a setup or the player.

Yea of course, but that doesn’t change the fact that the class still has pressure even though it’s a burst class.

Any form of defense will slightly decrease the DPS, and that includes Streaking from the Sorc. But I have done too many duels against magsorcs with a lot of blocking on my part to conclude that a magsorc with a full damage build will have at least 4k DPS on most players. The only times it doesn’t is when facing an OP class like pre-nerfed Templar.

We literally just talked about how there are portions of the burst that do no damage, and then portions that do mediocre damage... And we agreed on that....

Maybe we're not defining pressure as the same.... Pressure to me is applying 3-5 dots and having extra damage in spammables on top of that. You're constantly doing high damage.

Burst is where you forgo high pressure like that in exchange for bursting your opponent from 100-0 in 1-2 gcds.

Can a Sorc apply a curse and use a spammable and frag when it procs and disregard timing? Of course they can. But any skilled player will mitigate all of that through heals, CCs, and counter pressure (same can be said about a skilled player avoiding the burst but whatever). The point is the gcds during the application of curse and the usage of a mediocre spammable can't be considered pressure, that's 3 gcds that your're doing like 6k damage total, that's 2k DPS per second according to your standard, that's low enough to let your HoTs take care of yourself and be counter offensive. Sure let's say you add a frag and a curse to that next gcd for another 14k damage bringing it to 20k over 4 gcds being 5k damage a second. But that not an example of high pressure, that's an example of high burst. You spent 3 gcds doing little to no damage, then 1 gcd doing really good damage (but guess what you can't follow that up because both those abilities cannot go off the next gcd).

If you're doing little to no damage and back loading your damage that's considered burst not pressure... And if you space out your curse and frag then you're giving your opponent a better chance at mitigating your damage. And at the end of the day due to the functionally of curse and frag you're going to be spending gcds where you aren't doing much damage. And you can't say well on average over the course of 8 gcds you did 4k DPS when 6 of those gcds you were doing 1-2k DPS then 2 of those gcds you were doing 4-6k DPS. That's not pressure that's burst lol. Pressure is constant damage every gcd. If any of those gcds are mediocre damage expect your opponent to have recovered during those times.

OBJnoob

I know where your disconnect is @Jsmalls

The Overload Ult is where the extra pressure is coming from that you're not considering. People that manage it well seem to have it up almost always, or more pointedly, when they're pressuring.

Jsmalls

@OBJnoob

I stated earlier that MagSorc is very strong with overload, don't disagree that.

But it's just like DKs corrosive, you can avoid it by knowing it's happening. Whether that's blocking, rolling, or being defensive.

Open world sure a MagSorc might seem like they always have it up. But not in a 1 v 1 scenario, it burns rather quickly.

But how much can an ultimate be considered in the balance of a class. What if I want to use dawnbreaker (I know you can use both but not if you're using overload that much) etc.

StaticWave

@Jsmalls

I’m defining pressure as the ability to prevent a class from reaching full HP. Magsorc falls into this regard with light attack weave, Crushing Shock, Curse, Cfrag, and Overload. Yes, there will be moments where it does not deal any damage in 1 GCD, but that doesn’t matter because

1) You’re always light weaving for added pressure
2) The burst from Curse + Cfrag drops the opponent’s HP low enough at a constant frequency that it can be considered pressure.

This is even more pronounced in a duel where the Magsorc controls the fight. The magsorc will be spamming their offensive abilities and forcing the opponent to be defensive 90% of the time. I have had seen it happened to many people including myself. Those fights are where the DPS of the magsorc can reach 4.5k.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

1) As is every class... don't think we can consider light attacks as pressure as well.... Like are we going to add in the staff enchant and call that pressure too? Or maybe the status effect proc for 300 damage lmao
2) Literally using the word burst then back tracking and calling it pressure? It's burst... Mag Sorc's have burst. High pressure is strong damage every gcd, burst is high damage spread into fewer gcd with low damage gcds between.

What's going to be the "pressure" after the curse and frag go off? Light attack crushing shock isn't pressure it's a mediocre filler lol (I mean any damage can be called pressure.... But there is a fine line between pressure that can be felt and pressure that is casually mitigated while staying offensive, and I'll thank you for your 3k crushing shock gcds)

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

1) As is every class... don't think we can consider light attacks as pressure as well.... Like are we going to add in the staff enchant and call that pressure too? Or maybe the status effect proc for 300 damage lmao
2) Literally using the word burst then back tracking and calling it pressure? It's burst... Mag Sorc's have burst. High pressure is strong damage every gcd, burst is high damage spread into fewer gcd with low damage gcds between.

What's going to be the "pressure" after the curse and frag go off? Light attack crushing shock isn't pressure it's a mediocre filler lol (I mean any damage can be called pressure.... But there is a fine line between pressure that can be felt and pressure that is casually mitigated while staying offensive, and I'll thank you for your 3k crushing shock gcds)

1) You definitely can lol. Ranged classes are going to have better light attack weaving than a melee one. On a sorc that can create distance at will, this is a clear advantage.

Destruction Staff also has a passive increasing status effect proc rate by 100%, so combined with CP you can proc all 3 of the elemental status effects for ~900 extra damage per cast. That's extra pressure too.

For example, this is my DPS against a hybrid NB in Rallying Cry. I was on a hybrid bow sorc:



Over a 2 minute 4 second fight, my total DPS was 3313, which is a respectable amount considering the average player usually has around 2k-2.5k DPS. Let's look at the top 5 abilities contributing to this DPS:

- Crushing Shock: 814 DPS or 24.4% of total
- Haunting Curse: 598 DPS or 17.9% of total
- Procced Cfrag: 527 DPS or 15.8% of total
- Bow light attacks: 449 DPS or 13.5% of total
- Bound Arms: 397 DPS or 11.9% of total

These 5 abilities make up 83.5% of my total DPS, the rest comes from DoTs, back bar light attacks, enchants, status effects, etc. Keep in mind, I was using a Sharpened Bow, not Charged.

Light attacks alone make up 13.5% of my total DPS. How can you say that isn't pressure when it's literally top 4 in terms of damage output lol?

2) Burst can also be pressure when there's enough of it thrown out. I have stated many times that Sorc's burst comes in waves, aka consistent damage, and therefore can be considered pressure.

The pressure is always applied with Crushing Shock between Cfrag weaves and Curse. Pressure is pressure. Whether it can be felt or not is a different topic of argument. By that logic I can also say DK isn't a pressure class but a burst class because I can heal through their 5 DoTs on my stamsorc until he Fossilizes and hits me with a 10k Whip. I don't feel the DoT pressure from the DK, so by your logic, DK isn't really a pressure class, is it?

OBJnoob

Jsmalls wrote: »

@OBJnoob

I stated earlier that MagSorc is very strong with overload, don't disagree that.

But it's just like DKs corrosive, you can avoid it by knowing it's happening. Whether that's blocking, rolling, or being defensive.

Open world sure a MagSorc might seem like they always have it up. But not in a 1 v 1 scenario, it burns rather quickly.

But how much can an ultimate be considered in the balance of a class. What if I want to use dawnbreaker (I know you can use both but not if you're using overload that much) etc.

If you want to use Dawnbreaker then I guess you want to play in a burstier manner. I'm gonna go ahead and share my LOLs with you... My phone tried very hard to make me say "bustier" right there.

Anyway... overload can be spent quickly, yes, and it doesn't take long to build either. Really depends on how much you want to save up and whether you're going to dump it all at once or activate and deactivate it a few times. It doesn't change the fundamental point on how it functions though-- it functions more like pressure than burst.

I just thought it was worth mentioning that you both seem to be leaving that out of your math. Curse and Frags completely aside, as they will indeed be your burst when they/you are ready, doing 2 spammables worth of damage every GCD for 3...4...5...8 GCDs in a row... That's pressure. And we can talk about roll dodging and blocking if we want to. But what you're dodging and blocking is THE PRESSURE.

And when you think it's time to kill you streak through.

I'll say it's kinda a mixture of pressure and burst. But why argue so long about such a thing?

Luede

Zabagad wrote: »

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.

it's a good way to open a fight when the opponent doesn't see you, due to the spell time the global cooldown runs out during the cast and you can in case of a procc, instant cast the second frag after it. then both spells hit at the same time.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

I feel like you're treating this like PvE and not PvP...

Of course % DPS is going to go to your spammables and light attacks because that's what used most often. It doesn't mean it's the source of pressure though. Let's break that data down a bit further to get into the nitty gritty of what's actually happening...

Crushing Weapons deals (3600+1200=4800) on average each gcd.
Haunting curse deals (4400+3600+1200=10200) or (4400+6600+1200=12200) on average for the gcd in which it damages.
Crystal Fragments deals (6600+1200=7800) on average each gcd.

While I'll admit I wasn't expecting crushing to deal almost 5k on average each gcd I'd like to also point out that crushing weapons scales better than crushing shock in a base stat sense as well as for passives (crushing shock is increased by 5% for 1/3 of it's damage versus crushing weapons being 100% of it's damage from Sorc passive).

Something I'm also not considering in the above, there is non crit damage versus crit damage. Considering you crit 40% of the time and was critting for 5200 then that means non crits values equal 2600 + 1000 LA = 3600 for a spammable gcd. And that's more in line with what I would expect and is happening the majority of the time. Now take my previous section into consideration and you're probably looking at 3000~ per GCD for crushing shock (probably higher for those gcds with a status proc).

With all that on the table....

You're now comparing a 3-5k GCD for a spammable to a 8-9.5k GCD for frags and a 9k-14k GCD for curse.

The 3-5k GCD will be mostly mitigated with healing leaving very little health missing (little to no pressure) on these gcds.

If there are gcds where you are dealing that low of damage my argument is that that's not pressure. And then you have gcds where you're dealing 2-3x that amount of damage in one GCD, and that's called burst...

If you add 5 dots and a spammable that's consistent pressure that can be done for the duration of the dots every gcd. That's high pressure because it's consistent every gcd.

I'd also like to point out that you have a pretty strong damage build overall. So what happened to those 10k frags that you were going on about? I know you said Metallic was hitting them, but your build is very similar to his. You have similar penetration, like for like crit damage, and any other stat sheet disadvantage is covered by the extra minor berserk in your setup. Yet the highest frag you hit was 8.5k very close to the 8k statement I made... Very odd.... Then on top of that you're dueling a nightblade, and I can't speak for every nightblade build but nightblades are ALWAYS the class I get the highest hits on. Frags on a Warden, DK, or Templar with this setup (both yours and his) would be well below 8k due to their better active and passive defenses. Thought we were hitting 10k frags and 8k curses all day every day!? Lmao...

Once again this is all disregarding Overload. Feel like I have to make that statement.

Edit: At the end of the day we're debating about what to call damage in a fight. Mostly irrelevant because we agree on the actual damage... Mostly.

Jsmalls

@OBJnoob

Bustier lmao love autocorrect.

I don't disagree that OL is awesome open world, and yes it creates high pressure and burst. Using static's numbers up top you can create burst using OL light attack+crushing weapon+curse+frag and deal 21k BURST (lol) damage on average in 1 gcd. That's what I try to setup personally in fights for tankier opponents followed by a dawnbreaker or streak. But it's a lot of no damage gcds and it also depends on RNG frags.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

It would be very strong. Shields used to take zero crit damage and received zero mitigation from armor. Now, most sorcs run around in sub 20k armor, so the mitigation from armor applying to shield is useless as most of them are being fully penned anyways. However shields would be very tanky if it can't be critted like before.

It's also very very hard to stay below 25k HP in today's meta. Imagine a sorc with 25k+ HP and 25-26k total shields that can't be critted and also dealing very high damage.

This is also not counting for CPs like Ward Master, Relentless, and Pain's Refuge giving you upwards of 40% damage mitigation that can also work on shields that can't be critted.

Yea, it's not fun to fight against lol.

Depends on how you manage scaling

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

They’re doing very well afaik.

no

elaborate?

I know for a fact that they don’t fare well against competent players on other classes like DK
Their opinion differs from players from PC EU because

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Jsmalls you don’t need major resolve or 25k HP with old shields. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Old shields were uncrittable and didn’t benefit from armor, so Major Resolve was useless. And when you can spam 25k pseudo HP, you don’t need 25k HP.

I must have missed something. I wouldn't think anyone would ever vote for no crit shields. Pretty much anything but no crit shields, they were ridiculous. Rallying cry already shows what things look like when you start taking crit dmg down.

Just asking for a reliable burst heal or even a reliable strong hot maybe!

I was responding to someone's question about how old shields would compete in today's meta.

It wasn't really a response, and it was hypothetical. Just showing a max mag build isn't putting a Sorc of old in the damage of today. I know what sorcs were, I was there. Compared to the level of passive healing and tankiness of today's sets, the active defensive power of sorcs in their prime might not seem like the advantage it used to be.
Just showing me a a max stats build of today doesn't do much to make a point.

This is what you said:

ForumBully wrote: »

I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong

I responded with a hypothetical scenario where old shields would stack up to the damage of now. It's pretty obvious how strong they would be when the current meta is stacking crit damage.

Show you a max stat builds of today is a valid argument. Old sorcs didn't need Major Resolve or Impen because shields weren't crittable nor benefit from from armor. They'd be able to pump everything into damage and also have the healing of today's hybridization.

But I know what it looks like...why make the build? Even that isn't what sorcs were because you can't make that anymore unless youve got a build editor time machine. It's not in a live environment fighting a DK today....it was just "here's a build and it's OP today, trust me"

Why make the build? Because you literally said "I am curious to see how the shields of then would stack up to the damage of now...but they were pretty strong"

If you know they were pretty strong, then I don't understand why you don't think it would also be strong in today's meta where everyone builds for crit damage and hybridization is also a thing. Old shield being uncrittable is a perfect counter for today's damage.

I made the build because a sorc with old shields can just build into full damage and indirectly benefit from it defensively instead of having to build into damage and defense. It's a byproduct of shields being uncrittable. You don't need to slot Rallying Cry or Chudan or use any Impen traits.

You have to look at it as a whole picture. The ripple effects exist.

I disagree completely with this

I can bet you they bought back old shields I will be 1vx’ing whole zergs of sorcs.

I pretty sure only the top 1% know how to apply shields properly

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

I feel like you're treating this like PvE and not PvP...

Of course % DPS is going to go to your spammables and light attacks because that's what used most often. It doesn't mean it's the source of pressure though. Let's break that data down a bit further to get into the nitty gritty of what's actually happening...

Crushing Weapons deals (3600+1200=4800) on average each gcd.
Haunting curse deals (4400+3600+1200=10200) or (4400+6600+1200=12200) on average for the gcd in which it damages.
Crystal Fragments deals (6600+1200=7800) on average each gcd.

While I'll admit I wasn't expecting crushing to deal almost 5k on average each gcd I'd like to also point out that crushing weapons scales better than crushing shock in a base stat sense as well as for passives (crushing shock is increased by 5% for 1/3 of it's damage versus crushing weapons being 100% of it's damage from Sorc passive).

Something I'm also not considering in the above, there is non crit damage versus crit damage. Considering you crit 40% of the time and was critting for 5200 then that means non crits values equal 2600 + 1000 LA = 3600 for a spammable gcd. And that's more in line with what I would expect and is happening the majority of the time. Now take my previous section into consideration and you're probably looking at 3000~ per GCD for crushing shock (probably higher for those gcds with a status proc).

With all that on the table....

You're now comparing a 3-5k GCD for a spammable to a 8-9.5k GCD for frags and a 9k-14k GCD for curse.

The 3-5k GCD will be mostly mitigated with healing leaving very little health missing (little to no pressure) on these gcds.

If there are gcds where you are dealing that low of damage my argument is that that's not pressure. And then you have gcds where you're dealing 2-3x that amount of damage in one GCD, and that's called burst...

If you add 5 dots and a spammable that's consistent pressure that can be done for the duration of the dots every gcd. That's high pressure because it's consistent every gcd.

I'd also like to point out that you have a pretty strong damage build overall. So what happened to those 10k frags that you were going on about? I know you said Metallic was hitting them, but your build is very similar to his. You have similar penetration, like for like crit damage, and any other stat sheet disadvantage is covered by the extra minor berserk in your setup. Yet the highest frag you hit was 8.5k very close to the 8k statement I made... Very odd.... Then on top of that you're dueling a nightblade, and I can't speak for every nightblade build but nightblades are ALWAYS the class I get the highest hits on. Frags on a Warden, DK, or Templar with this setup (both yours and his) would be well below 8k due to their better active and passive defenses. Thought we were hitting 10k frags and 8k curses all day every day!? Lmao...

Once again this is all disregarding Overload. Feel like I have to make that statement.

Edit: At the end of the day we're debating about what to call damage in a fight. Mostly irrelevant because we agree on the actual damage... Mostly.

The thing is, over the course of a long fight the sorc’s burst will behave as pressure.

Yes you will waste 1 GCD to apply Curse, but that Curse’s damage is worth 2 of DKs DoTs combined. Since DoTs tick every 2s, over that 3 second the DK’s initial direct dmg of Noxious Breath + the Noxious Breath DoT and Venom Claw DoT + its initial direct damage will deal about the same damage as a Curse or slightly more.

So basically, you’re trading consistent damage for a hard hitting one every X seconds, but due to the fact that Curse is unblockable and undodgable, it’s always top 2 in terms of DPS.

This is why I said sorc still has pressure despite being a burst class. Most of its abilities hit hard and the damage is distributed over 3 abilities (4 if you count Overload). The downside is it’s avoidable with dodge rolling, so it’s not always going to have the chance to behave as pressure.

However I can even argue that the fact that players have to constantly dodgeroll the damage of a sorc is evident that the class has pressure. If the class was truly a burst class, then you would only need to roll dodge once every X seconds like when fighting a NB.

Also as for your question about my Frag hitting 8.5k, the guy was in Rallying Cry and probably in several impen pieces. As you can see my crit damage is only 79%, so he’s probably mitigating somewhere around 50-55% of my crit dmg. The Frag number seems about right to me. When I fight people without Rallying Cry, I regularly hit 10-11k crit Frags, and I have screenshots to prove that.