Why Snake in the Stars needs a further adjustment after 8.3.3 before hitting the live server

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

It's going to be so funny when you folks get exactly what you want and ballgroups use this to destroy pugs, small-scalers, zergs, and faction stacks alike.

Saying "groups have too many HoTs, this set won't dent it," and saying "the more HoTs my solo NB uses the more oppressive this will be," in the same conversation. LOL.

The bias against groups is reaching a disgusting level. I guess Xing 65 people just isn't enough for some folks.

1 person killing 12 is purely skill-- no broken sets or mechanics need considering. 12 killing 1? Something is wrong, oh God, we can't find a solution, let's beg the developers to literally lower grouped people's stats.

-vomit-

1 isn't killing 12, it's reducing their wall of incoming HoTs. No one is saying anyone in the group should have multiple stacks of SitS on them, just one a piece that is limiting the effectiveness of the 15-20k/sec incoming healing.

I don't want to argue with you-- I like your input. Let's just say last time I came to a SiTS thread I said this is really going to suck if it turns into yet another big red circle in the minefield of pulls and crap that is currently cyrodiil. And that IS what these conversations are not so slowly turning into.

So get ready for another DC/plaguebreak-like experience. The ongoing desire of skilled players to have tools to combat otherwise insurmountable numbers IS the cancer in this game. It gave birth to the aforementioned sets, gave birth to the tank meta, gave birth to tower trolls, mist formers...

But asking for something so unnatural is obviously going to create an abomination of mechanisms... I for one am not surprised or confused on how we got where we are. Egos. BIG egos.

Its a shame that good players command so much respect since being good at video games has NOTHING to do with being honest or mature.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to hate this set no matter what flavor we get...but right now the set doesn't do what the devs said they were trying to do.

The_Titan_Tim

ForumBully wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

React wrote: »

Unblockable siege should be fixed, for sure. But to suggest that something other than ball grouping is "PVP ez mode" is very telling. It quite literally cannot get any easier than having 15k+ HPS at any given moment, every single possible buff and set bonus in the game, often times more numbers than your opponents, etc.

Did my eyes deceive me? Did you concede that siege should be mitigated by block? How are you going to block a giant catapult? I get that if we want to talk Roleplay, a character could hold their shield over their head to prevent Oil, but you are not blocking a massive siege weapon.

The same way we block a meteor falling from the sky. Its a game and we're talking about a mechanic, not reality.

Sure, but when that mechanic is detrimental to the overall counterplay of being outnumbered and winning through adversity, it’s a problem.

You can tackle it both mechanically and logically, it makes no sense, while this game is fantasy, its physics are based on reality, you jump off a ledge, you take fall damage.

If my Javelin can go through your shield, a Ballista bolt definitely should too.

Edit: Keep in mind, “Syrabane’s Ward” gives EVERYONE around you 30% block mitigation and 950 Health Recovery.

Krone23

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups. [/quote]

But it also brakes the healing in a Zerg and gives a 4 second time Window to put high damage into every person around.
Just have 3 Wardens with Subs and Dawnbreaker and 1 Person in the back spamming Altar, thats enough to easy wipe Every Zerg with Cross healing xD

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups.

But it also brakes the healing in a Zerg and gives a 4 second time Window to put high damage into every person around.
Just have 3 Wardens with Subs and Dawnbreaker and 1 Person in the back spamming Altar, thats enough to easy wipe Every Zerg with Cross healing xD[/quote]

Then maybe that's what we'll see, so be it. The set doesn't do what the devs claim they wanted it to do if it's one target per one cast.

ForumBully

See, I think even those opposing the suggest change in the OP know that this set as it is doesn't do what is intended, and they don't want it to do what is intended. I don't want another misfire with a set that only hits single players and small groups when the intent is to limit excessive HoTs.
I like this proposed change because it actually has a chance of being effective in the way the devs claim they want it to be.
If they want to target large group HoT stacking it just can't be released in it's current form.
This isn't ideal for me no matter what form its released in because I'd rather they deal with the mechanic directly...but they don't seem keen on that.

Krone23

Ahhhh i get the point. Cause the set doesnt do what the devs claim they wanted it to do ( what we cant exactly say to what point they want it to do this) we just say it should ruin PvP for everyone.

Edit: and normally when you Nerf the Best play style in healing and damage in any area you nerf everyone else also. Was always like this and will always be like this

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

Ahhhh i get the point. Cause the set doesnt do what the devs claim they wanted it to do ( what we cant exactly say to what point they want it to do this) we just say it should ruin PvP for everyone.

Edit: and normally when you Nerf the Best play style in healing and damage in any area you nerf everyone else also. Was always like this and will always be like this

They seem determined to ruin something for someone. I'm just hoping it's the right someones.

Again, I'd rather they limit stacks than proc damage

React

OBJnoob wrote: »

Saying "groups have too many HoTs, this set won't dent it," and saying "the more HoTs my solo NB uses the more oppressive this will be," in the same conversation. LOL.

What do you mean? The developer comment about the set is that it is intended to nerf the scenarios where there are many heals being layered. The comparison I made is to show that the set does not accomplish that whatsoever in the most problematic scenarios.

I am asking for it to be buffed - there is no reason it should be more punishing to a solo player than a group of players, when the issue the developers are targeting with this set stems from groups. I'm not even suggesting that it should be any less effective than it currently is against solo/small scale players.

OBJnoob wrote: »

1 person killing 12 is purely skill-- no broken sets or mechanics need considering. 12 killing 1? Something is wrong, oh God, we can't find a solution, let's beg the developers to literally lower grouped people's stats.

-vomit-

I'm not sure if you saw, but I suggested lowering stats based on group size would be a mistake and the worst solution to the problem.

Nobody is suggesting one person should be able to take on 12. I'm not sure where you're coming up with that.

Tommy_The_Gun

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

[snip] It’s literally a group based game. Cyrodiil is LARGE SCALE pvp first and foremost. You CHOOSE not to take advantage of the benefits of grouping. The benefits are there for EVERYONE. You shoot yourself in the foot, no one else… it’s not even just grouping. It’s coordinated gameplay which will always come out on top no matter what. Again… this is available for everyone to take advantage of. Discord is free. Teamspeak is free. If you don’t want to use them, it’s your fault. You can’t punish everyone else for YOUR choices.

I guess it depends on points of view. I mean, no one complains about solo players or zergs. It is always "Ball Groups".

Here is how I see it:

Cyro is a giant "free for all" team death match with objectives. More or less. It is a mixture of play-styles. We have Solo play, Ganking, Bombing, Group play, Small Scale, Large scale, "Zergs" (mostly a bunch of solo players running in the same direction to have a large fight) and of course - Ball Groups. On top of that we have different activities (PvP & PvE).

Cyrodill is one big bag of mixed content. If this was a small scale game, we would also have a Match Maker that would create "fair" gameplay scenarios. Of course, it is impossible to have any kind of Match Maker in Cyrodill. That is why we have Battle Spirit - to add some kind of basic balance.

Whenever we have a class or skill or set or play style - in time it gets adjusted (mostly that means nerfed). Snipe ganking is a good example, as this tactic was way too strong in the past and now it is very hard (pretty much impossible) to use this type of tactics effectively.

My point is - The only play-style that has not received any significant nerf since the game exists are... Ball Groups.

This Play-style remains dominant, despite ZOS trying to nerf it countless times. ESO has A LOT of Play-styles (like I have mentioned earlier). Whenever something becomes dominant in a PvP video game - it gets nerfed. The reason why ZOS is unable to reduce ball group effectiveness is because they are always trying to do it in a wrong way. They have not played as a ball group, they do not understand how that works. All of the ball groups nerfs are for the most part either not affecting this play-style, or are making it stronger.

Right now, Ball Groups are pretty much unkillable. We have gotten this far. Even a Ball Group sometimes is not enough to stop other Ball group. I don't think it is like this solely because of player communication advantage. No. It is because Something like this on the screenshot in the 1st top page of this thread is possible in a 1st place. That is the reason. No cap on anything, stacking multiple (same) effects, infinite resource management, perma buffs with no cooldown etc). That is the problem.

When something like this happens in a PvP video game (one tactics becomes un-counterable by any tools available), then well... lets just say that there are some core balance issue.

Now, I am not saying that 12 People that are well coordinated and they have synergy between their builds should be weak, or a single bomber should be able to stop them, no. Obviously not. They should be a force to be reckon with. But, definitely - they should at the very least still remain mortal and they should be able to be defeated at some point. Right now - this is not the case.

Also just a though: Maybe we should not care about any balance at all and just treat Cyro as one big PvP Sandbox with no real meaning & sense of accomplishment. IDk.

[edited to remove quote]

Billium813

ForumBully wrote: »

Krone23 wrote: »

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups.

I agree that applying to 1 person is not going to do almost anything in a 12 person ball. Even 1 person in a 4 man group won't really do that much. However, 1 person should not be able to proc on 12 people with -50% healing.... that's just WAY too much for one set to do.

What about?

(5 items) Whenever a Major or Minor Debuff is applied to an enemy, if that enemy does not have Star Venom, a stack of Star Venom is applied to them for 4 seconds and Daedric energy will then bounce to a nearby group member within 8 meters, applying a stack of Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds.

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 850 Oblivion Damage for each stack of Star Venom, up to once every 0.1 seconds.

ForumBully

Billium813 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Krone23 wrote: »

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups.

I agree that applying to 1 person is not going to do almost anything in a 12 person ball. Even 1 person in a 4 man group won't really do that much. However, 1 person should not be able to proc on 12 people with -50% healing.... that's just WAY too much for one set to do.

What about?

(5 items) Whenever a Major or Minor Debuff is applied to an enemy, if that enemy does not have Star Venom, a stack of Star Venom is applied to them for 4 seconds and Daedric energy will then bounce to a nearby group member within 8 meters, applying a stack of Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds.

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 850 Oblivion Damage for each stack of Star Venom, up to once every 0.1 seconds.

The amount might need some tuning, and that amount might need to be on live to find out, but the function has to be more than one proc on one person to even come close to the intent.

ssewallb14_ESO

How about if you actually have more than 10 hots on you your character just dies of cringe.

Krone23

Ball Groups got nerfed in the past (Plaguebreak for example), the problem with nerfing a Ball Group is we use so many Sets skills etc. that you cant nerf them without nerving something else. If you nerf for example the set Spell Power Cure what is a rly strong set for all types of gameplay. You will also nerf PvE then all the PvEers will cry.
If you nerf heal stacking in PvP many Zerglings will Cry cause they cant get healed anymore by other + PvP healer will be unplayable.
If you nerf healing in the Group depending on how many Players are in the Group many big Zerg Guilds will Cry cause they have no healing anymore in the Group but dont want to play solo.
What ever you will do to nerf Ball Groups many players will get the same nerf and cry about this. Ball Grouping is the strongest way to gain maximum healing and damage in PvP and because of this it rly hard to nerf it without nerfing something else.
Same in PvE if you need to nerf the damage because the score pushing Groups have to much damage in their runs and everything is easy for them everyone below them will also suffer form that.

And as i already said if you know how to its easy to wipe a ball Group with 3-4 Players just put some thinking into it and iam sure you will find a way, their are multiple ones trust me

Billium813

ForumBully wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Krone23 wrote: »

Tbh if you remove the 12s cooldown on application for the caster it will just complety break the game for most players not just 12 man raid Group players. In every 1vX fight or just normal Zerg fight you get healed basically every second and not for high amounts maybe if you are lucky around 2-3k hps. Now a set that does 2848 Oblivion damage every second disables basically the healing for 4 seconds. Now having 1 Person in the Zerg that can apply the set how often it wants to how many people it wants and disable their healing for 4 seconds ??? Sorry but when that will go live everyone will suffer under that set not just the 12 man Groups, cause how i know many people form cyrodill they will just have one Person in the back sitting spamming Altar all the time and then 3 people with high damage builds in front just wiping the floor with Zergs cause they cant heal. Doesnt sound like fun to me tbh.
And in my Opinion 12 man raid Groups deserve that they cant get wiped by a singel person we put legit days every patch in our builds and tactics but then a single person that didnt do much should be able to easy wipe them ?
In real life you are also not able to win in idk Soccer against a team of people that trains and plays together since years and puts days of effort in their tactics. So why should it be like this in a game ?

This set applying to every member of a group that gets hit isn't one person wiping a group, that's a complete exaggeration. It's a brake being applied to the excessive incoming healing and it opens up a window of opportunity where it might take a few less bombs and siege to make a dent. Even then, it might not be enough. But, applying this to one person per one cast does absolutely nothing but punish solo and small scale groups.

I agree that applying to 1 person is not going to do almost anything in a 12 person ball. Even 1 person in a 4 man group won't really do that much. However, 1 person should not be able to proc on 12 people with -50% healing.... that's just WAY too much for one set to do.

What about?

(5 items) Whenever a Major or Minor Debuff is applied to an enemy, if that enemy does not have Star Venom, a stack of Star Venom is applied to them for 4 seconds and Daedric energy will then bounce to a nearby group member within 8 meters, applying a stack of Star Venom to them for 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds.

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 850 Oblivion Damage for each stack of Star Venom, up to once every 0.1 seconds.

The amount might need some tuning, and that amount might need to be on live to find out, but the function has to be more than one proc on one person to even come close to the intent.

Hmm, the biggest issue I think is the uptime, which is why I kept it at 12 seconds. If that were removed, then it's possible players could keep this up on enemies with 100% uptime; which seems bad IMO. With the cooldown though, it would take multiple players to effectively keep it up on more than 2 players

I suppose it could be raised to bounce twice, but I really don't think it should go more than that. Even with 1 bounce, I think 3-4 SitS users could still very quickly blanket an entire 12 person ball group! Plus, notice that the bounces get progressively much worse! With 3 players spamming PotL on an entire 12 person ball group, some poor soul in there could have 8 stacks! More bounces per proc I think means a stack cap is needed; perhaps at 4-5 stacks.

(5 items) Whenever a Major or Minor Debuff is applied to an enemy, if that enemy does not have Star Venom, a stack of Star Venom is applied to them for 6 seconds and Daedric energy will then bounce to a nearby group member within 8 meters, up to 2 times, applying a stack of Star Venom to them for 6 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

Whenever an enemy with Star Venom is healed, they take 850 Oblivion Damage for each stack of Star Venom, up to once every 0.1 seconds.

I changed the timings so that a single SitS user could, very slowly and with accuracy, spread the stacks around a group since the cooldown and the duration now leave a small gap. It would still be most efficient to spread with multiple SitS users though. Of course, duration extending abilities might ruin this design tho.

Thecompton73

I completely agree the set needs a bit more tuning to actually put a dent in ball groups. However I believe allowing an unlimited number of applications by one person on a single ability cast without a CD would absolutely turn this into just another tool better used by those groups than against them.
I think it likely they'd assign someone to wear the set and spam caltrops so everyone they're fighting has it on them as often as the ballgroup does.
I think an application cooldown of 4 seconds would be ideal so you can always have it applied to someone. Thus you wouldn't need as many people to keep good uptime on a a fair number in the ball group but only being able to apply it to one person at a time would keep it from being worthy of becoming another BG staple set.

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

Ball Groups got nerfed in the past (Plaguebreak for example), the problem with nerfing a Ball Group is we use so many Sets skills etc. that you cant nerf them without nerving something else. If you nerf for example the set Spell Power Cure what is a rly strong set for all types of gameplay. You will also nerf PvE then all the PvEers will cry.
If you nerf heal stacking in PvP many Zerglings will Cry cause they cant get healed anymore by other + PvP healer will be unplayable.
If you nerf healing in the Group depending on how many Players are in the Group many big Zerg Guilds will Cry cause they have no healing anymore in the Group but dont want to play solo.
What ever you will do to nerf Ball Groups many players will get the same nerf and cry about this. Ball Grouping is the strongest way to gain maximum healing and damage in PvP and because of this it rly hard to nerf it without nerfing something else.
Same in PvE if you need to nerf the damage because the score pushing Groups have to much damage in their runs and everything is easy for them everyone below them will also suffer form that.

And as i already said if you know how to its easy to wipe a ball Group with 3-4 Players just put some thinking into it and iam sure you will find a way, their are multiple ones trust me

Are you telling players or ZOS? The set and it's intent is their idea. They made the set and stated the intent.

Krone23

Iam telling the players xD. ZOS for sure knows that their are ways you are able to kill this groups otherwise they wouldnt exist since the release of the game. This set would just be an easy way for players that dont have much Skill or Game knowledge to easy kill Ball Groups.

ForumBully

Krone23 wrote: »

Iam telling the players xD. ZOS for sure knows that their are ways you are able to kill this groups otherwise they wouldnt exist since the release of the game. This set would just be an easy way for players that dont have much Skill or Game knowledge to easy kill Ball Groups.

But the set doesn't kill...honestly I'm not even sure how big of a dent it puts in a group that's stays up on healing. Good groups have an absurd amount of overhealing

Billium813

ForumBully wrote: »

Krone23 wrote: »

Iam telling the players xD. ZOS for sure knows that their are ways you are able to kill this groups otherwise they wouldnt exist since the release of the game. This set would just be an easy way for players that dont have much Skill or Game knowledge to easy kill Ball Groups.

But the set doesn't kill...honestly I'm not even sure how big of a dent it puts in a group that's stays up on healing. Good groups have an absurd amount of overhealing

Maybe it should only proc damage on overhealing

ForumBully

Billium813 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Krone23 wrote: »

Iam telling the players xD. ZOS for sure knows that their are ways you are able to kill this groups otherwise they wouldnt exist since the release of the game. This set would just be an easy way for players that dont have much Skill or Game knowledge to easy kill Ball Groups.

But the set doesn't kill...honestly I'm not even sure how big of a dent it puts in a group that's stays up on healing. Good groups have an absurd amount of overhealing

Maybe it should only proc damage on overhealing

That would be interesting too

Krone23

As it is atm it will not kill however if you have lets say 10-15 Players with the set it will put a significant dent in the groups healing what in combination with siege and other damage will have a high impact on this kind of Play style. If you change it from how it is atm it will for sure easy kill Ball Groups with rly low damage around them with way less Players casting this set. How it is atm you can put a significant dent in the healing and with some timed damage from siege and ults you are rly able to kill this groups. So you would need around 10 Players with the set and 10 Players with Siege and then 15 Players that just do normal Damage to them. So in total 35 Players to kill a Group of 12 People that is completely Optimizes with Voice communication and all the other Stuff. Sounds fair to me tbh

bachpain

Maybe, Just maybe we should address heal stacking by addressing HEAL STACKING and not even introduce a set like SitS in the first place? Use battle spirit to limit the number of incoming HOTs stacking or something. I am sure it can be done.

ForumBully

bachpain wrote: »

Maybe, Just maybe we should address heal stacking by addressing HEAL STACKING and not even introduce a set like SitS in the first place? Use battle spirit to limit the number of incoming HOTs stacking or something. I am sure it can be done.

Now that's an idea.

Billium813

Remember when there was all that Cyrodiil testing? ZOS was testing a bunch of stuff for performance testing and whatnot? Did they do any testing with removing heal stacking in PvP?

ForumBully

Billium813 wrote: »

Remember when there was all that Cyrodiil testing? ZOS was testing a bunch of stuff for performance testing and whatnot? Did they do any testing with removing heal stacking in PvP?

They did group only heals for awhile...and loads of cast times...I don't remember no stacking. However, organized groups, and as I recall a lot of players in general sat out some of the testing because it was a real pain to deal with.

Cloudrest

React wrote: »

snip

Big agree with what React says here. Ballgroups can only do what they do because of the massive amounts of healing that they can stack ontop of one another. His suggestion would go a long way to making Snake in the Stars effective against Ballgroups, but not crippling towards Solo/Smallscale players.

Or we can just limit stacks of unique sources of healing to 2-4. Having 11-12 echoing vigors ticking at the same time is ridiculous.

Brrrofski

Whatever they do, they can't make it oppressive for solo or very small groups.

I shouldn't be punished when fighting outnumbered and casting one of my two heals for 8k.

It does slightly worry me that secondary heals (blood magic, using animals companion skill etc) will proc it.

Dr_Con

I still don't see why they can't just make it negate all healing

Hesperax79

React wrote: »

This is an image of my buff tracker while standing in a typical "ball group",

@ZOS_Kevin

If the goal of the set is negating the heal stack the damage must be based on active healing effect / target. In this case the 12 sec cooldown will be OK, no problem for single player, but if the set will make f.e.1000 oblivion dmg / healing effect - so in this case, together with plaguebraker set the Ball Group problem could be solved.
In this special case you will have ~13K oblivion burst damage, and if you die, you could proc the Plaguebreak. Ball Group will gone in this case.

Tommy_The_Gun

React wrote: »

I have been thinking about this and... I know what am I going to do.

Warning ! Tactical Rant ! Incoming !

I am just gonna... right click... save as... then... file... print... Ok, now I am gonna grab scissorsand cut it... Ok now I am gonna put it... right there in the frame and put it here.

Ok, now I have this screen shot in a frame next to my monitor. And every time I am gonna encounter a Ball Group I am gonna look at this screen shot - just to remind myself what kind of Monster is running there in circles.

They have 12 Vigors. I and other 30 players around me don't. So... what should I do next ? A quick evaluation of chances I have:

Obviously, I am not an NPC or someone new to PvP. I am not gonna charge at them, "Leroy Jenkins" style. There are better ways to do something pointless. I see some players trying to hit them with sieges. They somehow are able to coordinate and hit the Ball Group with 10 balistas at once. Impressive for random / solo players. But... It did nothing. Oh, we also have a "Ball Group" on our side... they fight each other but... both of them "12 Vigors". No one is able to stop them. Nothing is. After a while even Ball Group are ignoring each other.

^ After seeing this type of things happening countless times I know what is the best thing players can do. I am just gonna fix a random wall & hide to maybe get deff tick. If not, then I am gonna wait for someone to take the keep so I can get some AP.

I will be honest. Sometimes I just go back to my Allaiance Base instead and quit. Because there is no fun left in this game. Game should be fun for all players. But when the "fun" is one-sided, then I get the feeling that someone else is having tons of fun at the expense of others.

I consider myself an experienced player. And I realised one thing. The more knowledge I have the more I think that against a ball group (even if I have like 30 - 40 decent players on my side) best thing we can do is to either wait till "Ball Group" gets bored or quit the game & play something different.

Now, going back to this screen shot. I mean... lets just say that... "that is a lot of healing" stacked. 10 - 12 Echoing Vigor is like what 20K - 30K healing per second. Almost as if you had like 40K health recovery.

It is an MMO, I get it, but... just look at it ! Don't you think that maybe, somehow, in some way... this screen shot feels kinda um... wrong ?

Just think of what a player new to ESO or player who plays other PvP games would say if you would show them this screen shot.

"Nice cheat code" or "It is probably some bug exploit in which you multiple the effects" would most certainly be the answers.

But... it is not a cheat or an exploit. It is an actual gameplay.
Game allows to stack things indefinitely. No limit. You have no player collision hit box, you can stack 100 players in one 1x1 square meter and if they all cast AOE healing - they will all be all healed 100x times.

Again, I know it is an MMO, but I also know that Devs behind this game are kinda experienced. Making MMO rpg is their job. They are professionals. And yet... how they did allowed something like this to happen ? Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. Even I know that.

Ok, let's simplify it a bit and pretend that we are not balancing a complicated video game, but rather an audio file. The wave & the volume needs to be optimized for every device, so it would not blow everyone's ears out. Quite simple, right ? But then comes the time in which the audio file is being played by a "Ball group" device which automatically boost the wave & it's volume by 1200%... You can not balance stuff if you have this much disparity between "lows" & "highs". The only way would be to make the sound file to reach tones that human ears cannot even hear.

Or, maybe just try different approach and maybe, just maybe add a "cap" to maximum volume setting ? So instead of being boosted by 1200% it would like only 300%.

How that translate to ESO ?

TLDR:
Well, maybe having a cap on how many same effects stacked could be a good idea ? Instead of having no cap at all, imagine if it would be 3 or something. If 7 people are for example healing you with Echoing Vigor, you would only be healed by 3. Every other cast will be ignored or if someone casted it split second after it would just refresh / replace the existing one.