Literally no proposed feedback has been considered

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is even the point of having PTS feedback threads when 99% of the feedback is either entirely ignored and goes unanswered by the devs, or takes several patches after the feedback is given to finally be acted upon?

Discussions like DK chains, changes to harmony traits affecting/nerfing PvP necromancer, how poor destruction staves are performing in endgame PvE and how awful Templar and Sorc are - they’re *now* problems and not “wait 3 months to hopefully see 1 or 2 of these things get acted upon” and this is just scraping the surface of how much feedback is given in this patch alone that doesn’t seem to have a resolution or even acknowledgement for most of it, considering these are considered legitimate issues in combat balance.

In any customer facing situation it's usually good to maintain some level of seeming like you care about them. That way if asked you can say hey we do xyz to work with our customers. It might not even function that week but at least you can say you made the effort. You're basically saying a technical example of a complaint box at any given corporation. It's there to say we listen lol.

You've got the worst vision of companies. And i don't think you think theres any market forces applying ever.

Generally speaking when your company grows to a sufficient size there are just certain principles that start to apply. Find me any large corporation and I'll show you where it's about numbers vs people. There are exceptions to every rule of course but I've worked for enough good and bad corporations to know how these things play.

Any company that doesnt listen to its customers ultimately goes under. There's no other rule in a market economy. If you can't sell your stuff, you're toast.

Not really, it's done all the time though I admit you need to meet certain conditions which ZOS sort of is.

See in a way they do listen, it's just that they really do stuff that's ok that enough people are ok with.

I'd trade this new class for performance and balance but they know they can make more easy money on the class and technically they can say they listened even though it was really about making money.

In business you can really manipulate things to your favor and push your customers around a bit if you have the right product and manipulate them correctly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_video_game_companies_of_the_United_States

Dozens and dozens of failed companies just in the us alone. Even with big titles. You are just talking utter utter nonsense. 'In business you can really manipulate the customer' lol 😆

Sunk cost fallacy and other principles at play here.

But ok if you can't manipulate customers what do you think banks, pharmaceutical companies, politicians, etc, do? And no I'm not talking about conspiracies or anything like that. Just simple understanding that human psychology is a big factor in business and a tool that can dominaten when used correctly.

See you make it sound as simple as oh if this game sucks go play another but you're missing soooo many factors as to why people will continue to let ZOS do this and pay them at the same time. I know this from experience and talking to other players.

It's what Microsoft does, be big enough and make products that are just good enough at that they do.

This ip certainly isn't in that realm but ZOS knows the game, get em hooked in several easy ways and then create a mill to churn in fresh players.

This is truly a more unique situation than your link makes it out to me. ZOS had the fortune to just start out from a great built up fan base, and turn it into this steady stream we see today. And yes players are quitting but more new ones are joining at an almost even rate. Should they ever become truly lopsided we might see some interesting change.

Caribou77

I'd like to see the data. I don't know anyone, not a single person, who plays the card game.

I know more people who enjoy fishing in the game, for some perspective.

Pelanora

Holycannoli wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

I think they've got the data on the card game that says it's being played. I think they would not add to it, if it werent.

And I've seen an old old thread in here with someone asking for a game to play in the taverns.

We wanted chess, checkers, blackjack, poker, maybe darts. Games like that. Give the taverns an active vibe and make them a place you want to be.

That would have been awesome.

Pelanora

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is even the point of having PTS feedback threads when 99% of the feedback is either entirely ignored and goes unanswered by the devs, or takes several patches after the feedback is given to finally be acted upon?

Discussions like DK chains, changes to harmony traits affecting/nerfing PvP necromancer, how poor destruction staves are performing in endgame PvE and how awful Templar and Sorc are - they’re *now* problems and not “wait 3 months to hopefully see 1 or 2 of these things get acted upon” and this is just scraping the surface of how much feedback is given in this patch alone that doesn’t seem to have a resolution or even acknowledgement for most of it, considering these are considered legitimate issues in combat balance.

In any customer facing situation it's usually good to maintain some level of seeming like you care about them. That way if asked you can say hey we do xyz to work with our customers. It might not even function that week but at least you can say you made the effort. You're basically saying a technical example of a complaint box at any given corporation. It's there to say we listen lol.

You've got the worst vision of companies. And i don't think you think theres any market forces applying ever.

Generally speaking when your company grows to a sufficient size there are just certain principles that start to apply. Find me any large corporation and I'll show you where it's about numbers vs people. There are exceptions to every rule of course but I've worked for enough good and bad corporations to know how these things play.

Any company that doesnt listen to its customers ultimately goes under. There's no other rule in a market economy. If you can't sell your stuff, you're toast.

Not really, it's done all the time though I admit you need to meet certain conditions which ZOS sort of is.

See in a way they do listen, it's just that they really do stuff that's ok that enough people are ok with.

I'd trade this new class for performance and balance but they know they can make more easy money on the class and technically they can say they listened even though it was really about making money.

In business you can really manipulate things to your favor and push your customers around a bit if you have the right product and manipulate them correctly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_video_game_companies_of_the_United_States

Dozens and dozens of failed companies just in the us alone. Even with big titles. You are just talking utter utter nonsense. 'In business you can really manipulate the customer' lol 😆

Sunk cost fallacy and other principles at play here.

But ok if you can't manipulate customers what do you think banks, pharmaceutical companies, politicians, etc, do? And no I'm not talking about conspiracies or anything like that. Just simple understanding that human psychology is a big factor in business and a tool that can dominaten when used correctly.

See you make it sound as simple as oh if this game sucks go play another but you're missing soooo many factors as to why people will continue to let ZOS do this and pay them at the same time. I know this from experience and talking to other players.

It's what Microsoft does, be big enough and make products that are just good enough at that they do.

This ip certainly isn't in that realm but ZOS knows the game, get em hooked in several easy ways and then create a mill to churn in fresh players.

This is truly a more unique situation than your link makes it out to me. ZOS had the fortune to just start out from a great built up fan base, and turn it into this steady stream we see today. And yes players are quitting but more new ones are joining at an almost even rate. Should they ever become truly lopsided we might see some interesting change.

Not a single sentence in that i agree with or reflects what I've said, or the reality of the extremely tough gaming industry. You say this one point in every thread i see you in, this is your only take on every topic, so at this point i think you're trolling, and I'm muting.

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

What is even the point of having PTS feedback threads when 99% of the feedback is either entirely ignored and goes unanswered by the devs, or takes several patches after the feedback is given to finally be acted upon?

Discussions like DK chains, changes to harmony traits affecting/nerfing PvP necromancer, how poor destruction staves are performing in endgame PvE and how awful Templar and Sorc are - they’re *now* problems and not “wait 3 months to hopefully see 1 or 2 of these things get acted upon” and this is just scraping the surface of how much feedback is given in this patch alone that doesn’t seem to have a resolution or even acknowledgement for most of it, considering these are considered legitimate issues in combat balance.

In any customer facing situation it's usually good to maintain some level of seeming like you care about them. That way if asked you can say hey we do xyz to work with our customers. It might not even function that week but at least you can say you made the effort. You're basically saying a technical example of a complaint box at any given corporation. It's there to say we listen lol.

You've got the worst vision of companies. And i don't think you think theres any market forces applying ever.

Generally speaking when your company grows to a sufficient size there are just certain principles that start to apply. Find me any large corporation and I'll show you where it's about numbers vs people. There are exceptions to every rule of course but I've worked for enough good and bad corporations to know how these things play.

Any company that doesnt listen to its customers ultimately goes under. There's no other rule in a market economy. If you can't sell your stuff, you're toast.

Not really, it's done all the time though I admit you need to meet certain conditions which ZOS sort of is.

See in a way they do listen, it's just that they really do stuff that's ok that enough people are ok with.

I'd trade this new class for performance and balance but they know they can make more easy money on the class and technically they can say they listened even though it was really about making money.

In business you can really manipulate things to your favor and push your customers around a bit if you have the right product and manipulate them correctly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_video_game_companies_of_the_United_States

Dozens and dozens of failed companies just in the us alone. Even with big titles. You are just talking utter utter nonsense. 'In business you can really manipulate the customer' lol 😆

Sunk cost fallacy and other principles at play here.

But ok if you can't manipulate customers what do you think banks, pharmaceutical companies, politicians, etc, do? And no I'm not talking about conspiracies or anything like that. Just simple understanding that human psychology is a big factor in business and a tool that can dominaten when used correctly.

See you make it sound as simple as oh if this game sucks go play another but you're missing soooo many factors as to why people will continue to let ZOS do this and pay them at the same time. I know this from experience and talking to other players.

It's what Microsoft does, be big enough and make products that are just good enough at that they do.

This ip certainly isn't in that realm but ZOS knows the game, get em hooked in several easy ways and then create a mill to churn in fresh players.

This is truly a more unique situation than your link makes it out to me. ZOS had the fortune to just start out from a great built up fan base, and turn it into this steady stream we see today. And yes players are quitting but more new ones are joining at an almost even rate. Should they ever become truly lopsided we might see some interesting change.

Not a single sentence in that i agree with or reflects what I've said, or the reality of the extremely tough gaming industry. You say this one point in every thread i see you in, this is your only take on every topic, so at this point i think you're trolling, and I'm muting.

I respect your opinion and your choices and agree to disagree then. I'm glad we all have the opportunity to at least share our thoughts and feelings on this matter and that's the important thing even if we don't all agree.

Red99

As i wrote 3 months ago, no feedback has been considered, templars and necro are still rubbish in pvp, mara's balm still too strong, another 3 months have passed and nothing has been done
@ZOS_Kevin

Gadamlub14_ESO

are these your first few patch cycles Red? Because this has been the norm for most of the games life.

Bodycounter

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The quality of player feedback this PTS cycle seems lower than ever before. Most of the forum has become "nerf DK because they killed/outparsed me" or "I hate templar jabs". It's obvious that most players are not doing any real PTS testing, just reading patch notes and complaining.

This describes very well what im experiencing in this forum. There are like 50 people left who are just circlejerking the same ideas. Within this small bubble they feel heavily supported in their ideas and are now trying to enforce them. There are millions of players without issues though who do not care for any significant changes. Most of them won't even notice any changes because they don't keep up with the latest patch notes.

The biggest Elder Scrolls Online YouTubers have very low viewer numbers in comparison to other games. The general interest in maximizing their character's potential just isn't there. For many people this is a relatively casual and solo player friendly game. They are more interested in the story progression than Major Berserk on chains for 4 seconds.

bachpain

Could it be that the other voices have given up and moved on to other games because of the status quo? The player base has literally been chunked apart year after year with updates that have decimated whole subsets of the gameplay be it endgamers and their DPS expectations, or PVPers, or Achievement chasers etc. And all of them have come in the name of some reasonable need like server performance or storage space all the while we get classes and sets that are literally process hogs in themselves changing their stats with every state of a players movement while a million graphics whirl about them.

The general interest isn't here anymore because it has been sucked out of us one crown sale at a time. These poor new posts and posters are all a new crop that don't even know what they are in for.

peacenote

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Going to follow up here because it's important to mention here. There has been feedback taken this cycle that has either been implemented to some degree or we've stated that we will continue to observe for future changes, based on feedback and player behavior. We've had several meetings with the combat team to go over feedback and respond accordingly.

Having said that, we do understand when there are specific changes player(s) wants that either were not addressed this go-around or not implemented in the way players wanted. We will continue to take your feedback to the dev team and work toward solutions for issues going forward. Your feedback is an important step in the evaluation process for our various teams making changes.

Lastly, we do want to highlight that sometimes player expectation does not line up with dev implementation, as there are a multitude of consideration factors at play. That is okay and we understand this will lead to some being frustrated at times, as you are allowed to be as a player. We try to explain those

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, we do want to highlight that sometimes player expectation does not line up with dev implementation, as there are a multitude of consideration factors at play.

@ZOS_Kevin this isn't directed at you as you do a very good job interacting with the community but player expectations are really just basic customer service expectations such as communication - something that the Studio has repeated vowed to improve over the years and then goes back to ignoring their paying customers by not communicating, and the even handed application of class and skill balancing creating space for all classes to be played.

Templar and Sorc being ignored yet again after the nerfs in U35 and U36 and then DK getting a rather large buff that the high performing class did not need is case in point. Who thought it necessary to buff a must have class while ignoring classes that have been sidelined like Templar, Sorc, and even Necro? How is the player base supposed to take that? Sorc and Templar are currently not bringing much to the table in end game PVE at the moment and from the earlier post that is intentional? Someone on the combat team should be tested for narcotics because that just doesn't make any sense. Every class should bring something unique to the table for group comp or that class will be left out of group comp for one that does. So much for "play how you want" when your class has intentionally been knee capped and ignored. It's been 7 months since U35 and to rub salt in the wound we still have that horrendous new flailing fishing animation for Templar sweeps/jabs with the vampire shovel model but the devs haven't even acknowledged the Templar community's revulsion to this specific set of changes and how it negatively impacts player enjoyment and willingness to play the class. You have customized actions in the game now, let us customize sweeps/jabs back to the original action with the original spear model.

The only positive aspect of this patch cycle is that at least we don't have any public developer social media posts intentionally antagonizing large sections of the end game community again. That is a win I'll gladly take.

Thank you Kevin for your continued interaction with the community. Often times it feels like you're the only one who takes time out of your day to answer the community's concerns even if you can't personally solve them so keep up the solid work.

I also want to jump in and say first, thank you to Kevin.

And second, I'll keep saying it.... what ZOS is missing is the engagement piece in the feedback conversation. ZOS asks for feedback. Playerbase gives feedback. [Engagement Step Missing] Feedback is heard, and sometimes we get changes based on feedback later, when the why is nicely explained.

However, we OFTEN do not get the step before implementation. The "we heard you, and we are or aren't / can or can't do something about this at this time or in the future, because that is / isn't in our vision or because of technical hurdles / resources etc."

I'm still waiting for acknowledgement from ZOS about what we lost with AwA and if they support the alt life style in general still. If someday map progress will be fixed. We were asked for feedback on PTS. Much was given. The FAQ that was released didn't address many of the sentiments. Sometimes, little fixes are released to quests but we have no idea of the larger intention.

I feel like Templars are in the same spot where we were told "not now" but we are left guessing as to whether that is because you feel Templars are in a good spot, or because of competing priorities or becauseyou haven't decided what to do next. It is an unsatisfying end to what started as a conversation.

When you ask for feedback, commenting on the specific feedback is the engagement part. Obviously not every tiny piece of feedback. But when a sentiment generates hundreds of posts, hundreds of pages... the re-stating of feedback (to illustrate it is understood) with some kind of explanation of what will be done with the feedback is almost always missing.

I almost never have specific expectations that feedback will be incorporated. There are so many considerations. Personally I have always been fine with that. The expectations I have are updates on yes/no/maybe, why/why not, and some insights into what ZOS is thinking. And I have those because it is the minimum anyone would look for in a conversation where they were solicited for and then took the time to give feedback!

Again, this is not feedback for Kevin but for the folks in the company and how they choose to pass along the news he has (or doesn't have) to share.

Stx

News flash:

The quality of ptr feedback is lower because the committed testers and hardcore players have left the game due to patch after patch of no improvements to the game.

Also, this is a public forum for anyone to use. Just because you don’t agree with or think someone’s feedback is useful doesn’t mean anything. Everyone is allowed to voice their concerns.

valenwood_vegan

I get that not all feedback is going to be agreed with and implemented. Communication could be better, along the lines of "we hear a lot of people asking for ____ and we can't / won't do it because ____", but that's nothing new. AwA and u35 were recent, particularly bad examples of this that turned a lot of people I know away from getting invested in PTS.

For me at least, the reason I don't bother with PTS anymore is because of the bugs, at times severe, that are identified on PTS and pushed live anyway. Then pushed to console. Then maybe fixed down the road if they're bad *enough*. What's the point? I think many of us have better things to do with our time.

Stx

Exactly.

There are too many other games out there and life is too short. After the atrocities of update 35, I haven’t played much, but I’ve been following every update and engaged in some PTS testing.

If they do listen to testers with constructive feedback, they don’t act on it at a reasonable rate. Way too many bugs and imbalanced items make it live. Testers aren’t listened to. So every update there are less testers.

You can’t put minimal effort into something and expect huge results.

TechMaybeHic

Probably not getting any better. I mean; mid day yesterday they were looking at login issues PCNA after PCEU was resolved and there has been no update on dev tracker. Obviously fixed but discussion just left as is. That's the way the game itself is.