Reactive Gameplay and Molten Whip

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?

It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.

It’s so insignificant that it leaves doubt.

robpr · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

That whip you’re referencing where the character does a flip is from when you attack an Off-Balance target, it has nothing to do with the fully charged 60% whip, and it has the same cast time as a normal whip. Those visuals you’re referencing are indistinguishable from Flames of Oblivion like previously mentioned. They need to be more distinct.

Molten Whip 3 charges do a flip like Flame Lash. 1 and 2 charges do not. Molten have no interaction with off-balance at all.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

That whip you’re referencing where the character does a flip is from when you attack an Off-Balance target, it has nothing to do with the fully charged 60% whip, and it has the same cast time as a normal whip. Those visuals you’re referencing are indistinguishable from Flames of Oblivion like previously mentioned. They need to be more distinct.

Molten Whip 3 charges do a flip like Flame Lash. 1 and 2 charges do not. Molten have no interaction with off-balance at all.

Yet it shares the same animation, leaving people doubt whether it’s a Power Lash or a Molten Whip, regardless, it leaves you with the same problem.

We’re talking about reactionary gameplay, the animation doesn’t matter if the ability has no cast time. Whether they do a flip or not, does not give the receiver any way to mitigate the damage other than through prevention using wards.

It doesn’t meet the burst standard of other classes as the “visuals” that people keep referencing are nowhere near acceptable, and are the equivalent of trying to determine a character’s exact lipstick color in a fight.

It’s insufficient, it involves a hyper focus on a character model and can be masked by other abilities, unlike a giant ray of light, big rings and a distinct noise when beetles are casted, dark clouds around the victim, a creeping skeleton, or a loud spectral bow with a travel time.

Also, edited out that part to avoid spreading misinformation, I didn’t bother looking into that variable as it’s irrelevant to the OP.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

An easy solution to this lack of visible animations, could be adding the same animation the game currently uses with every NPC to indicate that enemy is “Enraged” and have it override Dragon’s Blood.

Molten Whip stacks are called Seething Fury so having the “Enraged” red visual override would be quite fitting, and help mindful players prepare for the incoming burst without having to go in first person.

robpr · February 2023

I'd opt for a sound or red outline, akin to Death Dealer's aura. Molten has its sound when its active but so insignificant you dont even notice it practicing on a dummy.

Add DSR first boss "AAAAAAA" sound when its enraged dodging its heavy, i'd love it.

Edit, while we are at it, can we also look at transparency effects? Dark Cloak, Lightning Form, Dragon Blood, Acuity. Just for sake of visual consistency.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

I'd opt for a sound or red outline, akin to Death Dealer's aura. Molten has its sound when its active but so insignificant you dont even notice it practicing on a dummy.

Add DSR first boss "AAAAAAA" sound when its enraged dodging its heavy, i'd love it.

Edit, while we are at it, can we also look at transparency effects? Dark Cloak, Lightning Form, Dragon Blood, Acuity. Just for sake of visual consistency.

100% agree. Damage abilities need to prioritize over defensive ones in terms of masking.

VaranisArano · February 2023

"Molten Whip needs a unique visual animation when charged up"

"It has one"

"Well, it's not obvious enough"

Proposal for a visual effect that players can't miss: put a giant "1 -> 2 -> 3" above the DK's head as Whip buffs up.

The Uninvited · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Every other class has strengths and weaknesses. As these patches over the past year or so have gone: the dk quite literally gains a strength and loses a major weakness almost every patch. Why is this class balanced differently?

Because we've got screwed over for the first 7 years of the game.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Molten Whip needs a unique visual animation when charged up"

"It has one"

"Well, it's not obvious enough"

Proposal for a visual effect that players can't miss: put a giant "1 -> 2 -> 3" above the DK's head as Whip buffs up.

You’re trying to be funny, but it’s an instant cast, zero travel time, 60% damage increase.

Having your fight ruined in a fighting game because your win was stolen by an essentially random, unpreventable, easily maskable 60% damage spike on your spammable is not a great experience.

Do you suggest that what we are bringing up is not worth being serious? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but that “1 -> 2 -> 3” seems a little sarcastic.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

The Uninvited wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Every other class has strengths and weaknesses. As these patches over the past year or so have gone: the dk quite literally gains a strength and loses a major weakness almost every patch. Why is this class balanced differently?

Because we've got screwed over for the first 7 years of the game.

Not at all, Magicka Dragonknights were the best at launch on PC, so widely overperforming that the Devs couldn’t pinpoint what was actually wrong with the class, leading to the inevitable shelving that happened from Imperial City to Homestead.

They’ve been in a great place since, and Stamina Dragonknights have ALWAYS been great.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

The Uninvited wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Every other class has strengths and weaknesses. As these patches over the past year or so have gone: the dk quite literally gains a strength and loses a major weakness almost every patch. Why is this class balanced differently?

Because we've got screwed over for the first 7 years of the game.

So we’re several other classes at several points. This does not make it okay whatsoever. Like please, my friend.

Caribou77 · February 2023

DK is already the go-to easy pvp class. ~50% of battleground populations. These new, significant damage buffs are only going to make this worse. My primary concern is that PvP is becoming less diverse and dynamic in every way: Templars are stuck with spamming Radiant Opression, Wardens are stuck with ice staff, DKs are cc/whip repeat until Corrossive or Leap, repeat.

The changes to combat are giving us fewer options for viable/competitive play.

VaranisArano · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

"Molten Whip needs a unique visual animation when charged up"

"It has one"

"Well, it's not obvious enough"

Proposal for a visual effect that players can't miss: put a giant "1 -> 2 -> 3" above the DK's head as Whip buffs up.

You’re trying to be funny, but it’s an instant cast, zero travel time, 60% damage increase.

Having your fight ruined in a fighting game because your win was stolen by an essentially random, unpreventable, easily maskable 60% damage spike on your spammable is not a great experience.

Do you suggest that what we are bringing up is not worth being serious? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but that “1 -> 2 -> 3” seems a little sarcastic.

By all means, ask ZOS for a better visual as whip upgrades that you can't possibly miss.

As for sarcasm? Yes, but you've got to admit, it would do the job.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2023

I wouldn't mind a more obvious sign for a loaded whip. At best in conjunction with cutting back other over the top visuals.

OBJnoob · February 2023

As an Xbox player without add-ons who is pretty good but not great... I play more by intuition than by literally keeping track of every single thing.

It is enough to know you're gonna get whipped about once every five seconds. You can see the DK clawing you and spamming FoO, it isn't that hard to count to 3. Similarly you won't know when their ultimate is ready, but if you're decent you'll FEEL that it's been a while since their last one and know that another one is coming soon.

Honestly DKs are a pretty strong pressure class and can build up stacks for whip without going outside their natural rotation. You should expect it early and often. You should keep your buffs and HoTs up always.

DKs being so crazy strong has very little to do with visual indicators honestly. And whip, while being a strong ability, isn't the sort of ability that's going to delete you from over half health. Just, you know, have more than half health. And if you have less than half health prepare to block cast some stuff. Yes, he's about to whip you.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

As an Xbox player without add-ons who is pretty good but not great... I play more by intuition than by literally keeping track of every single thing.

It is enough to know you're gonna get whipped about once every five seconds. You can see the DK clawing you and spamming FoO, it isn't that hard to count to 3. Similarly you won't know when their ultimate is ready, but if you're decent you'll FEEL that it's been a while since their last one and know that another one is coming soon.

Honestly DKs are a pretty strong pressure class and can build up stacks for whip without going outside their natural rotation. You should expect it early and often. You should keep your buffs and HoTs up always.

DKs being so crazy strong has very little to do with visual indicators honestly. And whip, while being a strong ability, isn't the sort of ability that's going to delete you from over half health. Just, you know, have more than half health. And if you have less than half health prepare to block cast some stuff. Yes, he's about to whip you.

Are you insinuating that I’m not decent? Or that people having this issue are likewise, not decent?

I also play Xbox, want to meet up? I’ve been slamming the vast majority of the playerbase excluding exploitative DKs and desync MagBlades with a Stamplar, being the worst playable spec in the game right now, next to Sorcerer.

The OP plays everything at an extremely high level aswell, probably higher than anyone on this thread, maybe even these forums, and he’s the one bringing it up, also an Xbox player. Don’t write off the opinions of people too easily,

ForumBully · February 2023

They could change the animation to something like a chest getting all puffed up, something like when a player thinks someone doesn't think they're OP? I think this would be more recognizable to a lot of the player base since it's so familiar.

Maybe a chip animation on the shoulder that gets larger as stacks build?
Just spit balling animation ideas

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

They could change the animation to something like a chest getting all puffed up, something like when a player thinks someone doesn't think they're OP? I think this would be more recognizable to a lot of the player base since it's so familiar.

Maybe a chip animation on the shoulder that gets larger as stacks build?
Just spit balling animation ideas

Or they could change the animation to better represent the massive ego and ignorance of DK mains by making the character grow 3x as big, but only the head of the model.

Edit; Sorry 4x as big, I forgot to add the 3rd stack, can’t do that now as we wouldn’t want your head to be less inflated than it should be.

OBJnoob · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

As an Xbox player without add-ons who is pretty good but not great... I play more by intuition than by literally keeping track of every single thing.

It is enough to know you're gonna get whipped about once every five seconds. You can see the DK clawing you and spamming FoO, it isn't that hard to count to 3. Similarly you won't know when their ultimate is ready, but if you're decent you'll FEEL that it's been a while since their last one and know that another one is coming soon.

Honestly DKs are a pretty strong pressure class and can build up stacks for whip without going outside their natural rotation. You should expect it early and often. You should keep your buffs and HoTs up always.

DKs being so crazy strong has very little to do with visual indicators honestly. And whip, while being a strong ability, isn't the sort of ability that's going to delete you from over half health. Just, you know, have more than half health. And if you have less than half health prepare to block cast some stuff. Yes, he's about to whip you.

Are you insinuating that I’m not decent? Or that people having this issue are likewise, not decent?

I also play Xbox, want to meet up? I’ve been slamming the vast majority of the playerbase excluding exploitative DKs and desync MagBlades with a Stamplar, being the worst playable spec in the game right now, next to Sorcerer.

The OP plays everything at an extremely high level aswell, probably higher than anyone on this thread, maybe even these forums, and he’s the one bringing it up, also an Xbox player. Don’t write off the opinions of people too easily,

Wow. No I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying that i am not personally one able to keep track of visual indicators and it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I'm only taking that approach to be honest because it turns out there IS a visual indication after all and now people are just complaining that it isn't big ENOUGH. Which strikes me as a little silly. Like if you're that good just uh... Pay more attention I guess?

But sure we can duel if you want. Yes, that sounds good. There's a lot of chest puffing around here and everybody's personal group of friends seems to be "the best." I would very much like to see this in person.

Just do me a favor though. I'm playing a Warden. If I happen to win I don't want to hear a bunch of crap about how you're playing a stamplar. So bring a toon you can win on.

kojou · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.

Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.

Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.

Necro’s obvious blast bones.

Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.

Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.

Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.

My suggestion, given that there are no significant indicators to whip charge level as of now: a visual indicator (or a sound like nb bow at full proc) of some sort on the player character that will allow information on the charge level.

Giving innate time of visually or audibly recognizing the charge level, by definition, will allow players a little more reaction time and even give the user more information on when it’s ready to use at full strength as well (which helps avoid tedious micromanagement also).

Whip is melee... the others that you mentioned all work at a much longer range. That is one difference.

I wouldn't mind if they added some indicator that the proc was available, but with all the other effects (FoO, Deep Breath, Engulfing Flames, etc), do you really think you will see it? I'm not sure how easy it would be to add one more fire effect that would be distinguishable from all the other fire effects.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

As an Xbox player without add-ons who is pretty good but not great... I play more by intuition than by literally keeping track of every single thing.

It is enough to know you're gonna get whipped about once every five seconds. You can see the DK clawing you and spamming FoO, it isn't that hard to count to 3. Similarly you won't know when their ultimate is ready, but if you're decent you'll FEEL that it's been a while since their last one and know that another one is coming soon.

Honestly DKs are a pretty strong pressure class and can build up stacks for whip without going outside their natural rotation. You should expect it early and often. You should keep your buffs and HoTs up always.

DKs being so crazy strong has very little to do with visual indicators honestly. And whip, while being a strong ability, isn't the sort of ability that's going to delete you from over half health. Just, you know, have more than half health. And if you have less than half health prepare to block cast some stuff. Yes, he's about to whip you.

Are you insinuating that I’m not decent? Or that people having this issue are likewise, not decent?

I also play Xbox, want to meet up? I’ve been slamming the vast majority of the playerbase excluding exploitative DKs and desync MagBlades with a Stamplar, being the worst playable spec in the game right now, next to Sorcerer.

The OP plays everything at an extremely high level aswell, probably higher than anyone on this thread, maybe even these forums, and he’s the one bringing it up, also an Xbox player. Don’t write off the opinions of people too easily.

Wow. No I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying that i am not personally one able to keep track of visual indicators and it doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I'm only taking that approach to be honest because it turns out there IS a visual indication after all and now people are just complaining that it isn't big ENOUGH. Which strikes me as a little silly. Like if you're that good just uh... Pay more attention I guess?

But sure we can duel if you want. Yes, that sounds good. There's a lot of chest puffing around here and everybody's personal group of friends seems to be "the best." I would very much like to see this in person.

Just do me a favor though. I'm playing a Warden. If I happen to win I don't want to hear a bunch of crap about how you're playing a stamplar. So bring a toon you can win on.

Dueling is perhaps the only form of PvP that is enjoyable on this game. You get 3rd partied in all other forms of content, as a Duelist, it’s extremely annoying to deal with so I can’t imagine dealing with this is in Cyrodiil as you’re getting hit by multiple people, you say to just pay attention to however many times players hit Ardent Flame abilities, tell me, why do all players have to play a counting game when fighting Dragonknights?

Quite literally only Dragonknights.

Every other class gives an indication that burst is about to hit, and is noticeable, and enables reactive gameplay. To prepare for a Molten Whip, you have to be in first person to see the players animations assuming they don’t have a hundred different animations on, or play a counting game while also managing all of your timed buffs?

Ever play a Necromancer? You can’t micro-manage your weirdly timed tethers and Spirit Guardian, while counting down on your opponent.

Also, no “chest puffing” over here, just proving a point that you can’t invalidate someone’s opinion by simply stating “if your decent” because you have absolutely no idea who you’re talking to. My handle is my GT, you’re gonna have to message me, the Gamertag “OPJNoob” doesn’t exist on Xbox.

OBJnoob · February 2023

I wasn't trying to invalidate anyone. I can see why you took it that way but in reading it again I don't think I actually said anything that specific or hurtful. I was just saying how I feel as a B+ maybe A- player. I don't really notice the visual effects but I just don't feel that is why DKs are so strong.

There might be a space in my name. OBJ noob or OBJnoob, not sure, but will let you know tonight. I'm at work now.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

If that wasn’t your intent…

OBJnoob wrote: »

…It is enough to know you're gonna get whipped about once every five seconds. You can see the DK clawing you and spamming FoO, it isn't that hard to count to 3. Similarly you won't know when their ultimate is ready, but if you're decent you'll FEEL that it's been a while since their last one and know that another one is coming soon…

…why did you say it?

(Also, neither of those GT worked)

Wuuffyy · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I wasn't trying to invalidate anyone. I can see why you took it that way but in reading it again I don't think I actually said anything that specific or hurtful. I was just saying how I feel as a B+ maybe A- player. I don't really notice the visual effects but I just don't feel that is why DKs are so strong.

There might be a space in my name. OBJ noob or OBJnoob, not sure, but will let you know tonight. I'm at work now.

They are not noticeable. I have asked several people on this matter. Regardless, given how the skills functions, it should be very obvious (bow should be too but at least it doesn’t moonlight as a spammable).

OBJnoob · February 2023

Can't help you right now with the name thing-- not sure what might be up but don't worry we'll have our little spar. I know plenty of people that are better than me. If you're one of them then it'll be my pleasure.

As for the othe thing -shrug- I stand by it. All I was saying is I am decent and I wouldn't think anyone better than me would have a problem since I don't feel that I do. If YOU expanded that then that's what you did. I was talking about me, using myself as a benchmark.

Vevvev · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?

It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.

It’s so insignificant that it leaves doubt.

Not really, but as someone pointed out it can get lost in the shuffle, but on it's own it's glaring obvious.

No stacks

1 Stack

2 Stacks

3 Stacks

edit to put the images in spoiler tags.

Billium813 · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I personally love changes like the addition of Seething Fury as they promote more strategic gameplay.

I would love to see ESO make large scale changes to promote more strategic gameplay and encourage proficiency over raw damage.

For instance, a couple patches back, they changed Ritual of Retribution a to increase in damage over time, ticking up 12% each time. I still think RoR was over-nerfed, but I LOVE the ticking up of damage for an AOE. It punishes players that spam abilities or aren't good at maintaining a proper rotation. That adds an element of skill to the game, requiring proficiency with rotations. Maintaining stacks on single dots and full durations on AOES are great sources of skill. I want to see ZOS do more of that.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?

It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.

It’s so insignificant that it leaves doubt.

Not really, but as someone pointed out it can get lost in the shuffle, but on it's own it's glaring obvious.

No stacks

1 Stack

2 Stacks

3 Stacks

edit to put the images in spoiler tags.

Our Xbox Network is currently unavailable so do me a favor, post three more pictures, but instead of a tiny character, put on any of the atronach polymorphs, use the blue one…

Picture 1; Stack 3
Picture 2; Stack 3 + Flames of Oblivion
Picture 3; Stack 3 + FoO and Dragon Blood

As soon as our service is back up, I’ll upload them, then I want you to tell me how visible that is.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?

It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.

It’s so insignificant that it leaves doubt.

Not really, but as someone pointed out it can get lost in the shuffle, but on it's own it's glaring obvious.

No stacks

1 Stack

2 Stacks

3 Stacks

edit to put the images in spoiler tags.

So I’ve finally been able to grab my pictures, here is the same effect shown earlier, but with a Polymorph on, and it is MUCH worse with the Iron Atronach one...

3 Stack, no other effects

3 Stack, with Flames of Oblivion

3 Stack, with FoO and Green Dragon’s Blood

Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that there is zero chance you are going to be able to track the stacks from any of these animations. It’s completely masked, leading back to discussion…

Are the visual queues enough?

No.

Should they be more prominent?

Yes.

StaticWave · February 2023

The problem is more complicated than just having a poorly visible indicator. It actually doesn't matter if there's an indicator that a whip is fully stacked. Most DKs will rotate through Claw + Breath + FoO to gain 3 stacks, then Fossilize someone to guarantee the Whip hit. Fossilize is too buggy most of the times and when combined with latency it's really difficult to avoid getting hit.

There could be a huge flashing light above the DK's head indicating that he has 3 whip stacks, but unless you break free fast enough AND roll dodge fast enough, which needs to happen within 1 second, you're still going to get hit lol. Big burst without a clear indicator is problematic. Big burst without a clear indicator and a skill that guarantees it's going to land 99% of the time is even more problematic.