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Reactive Gameplay and Molten Whip
Wuuffyy
✭✭✭✭✭
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✭
It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
My suggestion, given that there are no significant indicators to whip charge level as of now: a visual indicator (or a sound like nb bow at full proc) of some sort on the player character that will allow information on the charge level.
Giving innate time of visually or audibly recognizing the charge level, by definition, will allow players a little more reaction time and even give the user more information on when it’s ready to use at full strength as well (which helps avoid tedious micromanagement also).
Edited by Wuuffyy on February 11, 2023 10:15PM Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
My suggestion, given that there are no significant indicators to whip charge level as of now: a visual indicator (or a sound like nb bow at full proc) of some sort on the player character that will allow information on the charge level.
Giving innate time of visually or audibly recognizing the charge level, by definition, will allow players a little more reaction time and even give the user more information on when it’s ready to use at full strength as well (which helps avoid tedious micromanagement also).
Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions
7
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Every other class has strengths and weaknesses. As these patches over the past year or so have gone: the dk quite literally gains a strength and loses a major weakness almost every patch. Why is this class balanced differently?Edited by Wuuffyy on February 9, 2023 5:54PMWuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions8 -
Melzo✭✭✭✭I see no reason to somehow spread rot on the whip. You can't spam them with a hold of charges. You missed it once and then you have the standard melee spam ability. By and large, this is not a very strong DK bu the rest of the classes are very weak. The DK's only strong point is the fire and poison status effects. So they have not been changed in patch 35 and at the same time have bonus damage in the passives of the DK.
From patch to patch, all classes became weaker. It's just that for some classes it had a stronger effect, while for others it was weaker.1 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭
Molten Whip is widely considered Dragonknight’s burst tool, and I personally love changes like the addition of Seething Fury as they promote more strategic gameplay.
While I enjoy abilities that involve combos, I recognize that it hits significantly harder than every other spammable in the game when fully proc’ing Seething Fury, although this stacking buff used to be a lot stronger, the core issue with it in regards to PvP was left unaddressed.
It’s never been a matter of how hard it hits, but of how the Power Lash has no warning, preventing active counterplay. What allows Spec Bow or any of the other class burst abilities justification, is that there’s a visual animation and then a time-until-effect giving players that are paying attention, the ability to react in most scenarios.
When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?
I would also be in favor of a visual indicator representing when Nightblade’s have a Spectral Bow chambered, as this kind of approach, encouraging active counterplay and awareness help to alleviate talk of nerfs.7 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.1 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone remember a few years back when DK used to think they'd never get anything? I do...we never would have believed the bounty available now compared to every other class...kinda says more about how badly every other class has been wrecked in that time.1 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.6 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?3 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.1 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.8 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
This is for anyone browsing this post that may think this way about me personally. I play all classes, rather well in PVP, I’d say myself.
Templar is one of my least favorite classes and I like to think I have no severe bias about any 1 particular class.
And I absolutely agree that this may not have been as much of a problem if it wasn’t so common. However, with all the nerfs on other classes and subsequent buffs on DK…
DK mains or DK-only users (relatively) are becoming more and more common and things that are technically an issue, but are controlled by a small population; are an increasing and prevalent impassable problem when roughly 60-70% of the player base is using it. Such as the current meta rotation for dk.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions2 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions2 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.
Not common. Uncommon. Outlier.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions4 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.
Not common. Uncommon. Outlier.
You're saying the Molten Whip should be put on the level of other classes skills, I'm saying that other classes skills should be elevated to the level of Molten Whip.1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.
Not common. Uncommon. Outlier.
You're saying the Molten Whip should be put on the level of other classes skills, I'm saying that other classes skills should be elevated to the level of Molten Whip.
They all are on the same or similar level now. Molten whip overperforms simply due to the lack of significant counters and indicators (especially from a typical whip or non-fully-charged whip) when the opponent is running this very common iteration of the whip.Edited by Wuuffyy on February 9, 2023 9:28PMWuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions3 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »I’mForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.
Not common. Uncommon. Outlier.
You're saying the Molten Whip should be put on the level of other classes skills, I'm saying that other classes skills should be elevated to the level of Molten Whip.
They all are on the same or similar level now. Molten whip overperforms simply due to the lack of significant counters and indicators (especially from a typical whip or non-fully-charged whip) when the opponent is running this very common iteration of the whip.
So you want telegraphs and cast times and channels to be the norm?0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »I’mForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »ForumBully wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »It should have a cast type, minimum travel time, a unique animation, or something.
Compared to NB’s bow proc that doesn’t have an attached spammable, a unique animation, a noise, a min travel time, etc.
Sorc’s crystal wep with a long obvious animation, frag with a min travel time and innate cast time, and curse with a unique animation.
Necro’s obvious blast bones.
Warden’s obvious and very avoidable beetles.
Templar’s over-nerfed and very obvious light.
Not to mention, dk has two other burst moves already (flames of oblivion+deep breath); one of which is an instant spammable with an added burst mechanic that is used to proc the whip too.
Just looking for symbolic payback and dragging down the last class standing? I'd rather trying to pull the others up myself, but I understand the impulse.
How is that symbolic payback? He has a good point, it’s the only class that gives no indication when it’s about to burst you.
Also, if it’s the last class standing, it’s the only class standing, that’s a problem.
It is a problem, so those classes need to be changed for the better, not the last class getting changed for the worse.
Does anyone anywhere think there's actually going to be a reason why it is the way it is?
How could an alter to any other class compensate for the inability to prepare or react to Molten Whip?
Inability? I don't think any of the other classes should have the handicap of telegraphs and cast times and channels, etc. Just because they do doesn't mean I want that nonsense extended again to the one class that doesn't.
Look for buffs not nerfs.
In combat oriented fighting games, back and forth exchanges and reactionary gameplay are staples.
Should it be easy to react to abilities? No.
Should it be possible? Yes.
Well maybe I'm unusual, but I can tell I'm about to get whipped when I can see that my opponent is a DK...I just can't do much of anything about it.
And that’s the problem. No significant indicator that you are about to be hit with a normal whip or one that hits as hard as a blastbones/beetles. Not to mention: 0 travel time. Something very common place with many other abilities like it.
It is common with other abilities, I think that's what needs to be fixed.
Not common. Uncommon. Outlier.
You're saying the Molten Whip should be put on the level of other classes skills, I'm saying that other classes skills should be elevated to the level of Molten Whip.
They all are on the same or similar level now. Molten whip overperforms simply due to the lack of significant counters and indicators (especially from a typical whip or non-fully-charged whip) when the opponent is running this very common iteration of the whip.
So you want telegraphs and cast times and channels to be the norm?
Telegraphs and cast times have always been the norm, it keeps the game competitive. If half your health bar just randomly gets eaten by any class at any given time, it’s not a fight, it’s a beatdown, and players looking for an experience like that have lists upon lists of games that whoever draws first, wins, and that’s the type of gameplay you’re advocating.4 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_Kevin I feel per standards of other moves of it’s caliber, the DK molten whip morph allows the least overall reaction time; which is further clouded with the concept than it can also be used as a normal spammable or even a non-fully charged proc whip as well. Do you feel that this may be examined in the future given the seeming lack of counterplay?Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions4 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This absolutely needs to be addressed.
Massive damage always needs to be telegraphed.
DKs should not be an exception.
The current state isn't okay.5 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i always felt that DK were pretty predictable when they were going to try to burst you...right after they hit you with fossilize lol
there have been sometimes ive seen them use it as a normal spammable, but in the vast majority of cases its almost always right after a fossilize or leapplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i always felt that DK were pretty predictable when they were going to try to burst you...right after they hit you with fossilize lol
there have been sometimes ive seen them use it as a normal spammable, but in the vast majority of cases its almost always right after a fossilize or leap
Or any time you want it. And the fact IT CAN be used as a normal spammable OR a burst move with little to no visual difference. Imagine if nightblade’s bow worked like that?Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions2 -
Quasaur✭✭Great news!
DK does, in fact, already have a telegraph that the Molten Whip morph is buffed! If they are aiming at you - because they must aim the whip, it can't do a 360 - you can see their eyes become the same bright orange as the fire-cloud they're now wearing over their chest.
Another way to tell if a DK is about to use a buffed Molten Whip follows.
The experienced players accustomed to fighting in CP Cyrodiil know you need a combo and a bit of luck to take anyone out in Cyrodiil (or hope they're AFK or forgot to change out of PvE setups). Who is using a buffed whip straight out of the gate? Someone who doesn't know how to do a combo and that's who you experienced players won't be dying to unless that DK has a friend or 10 with them.
The DK must cast 3 Ardent Flame skills before the Molten Whip is fully buffed for the ballerina backflip, otherwise this whip version is weaker than Rapid Strikes/Dizzying Swing/Snipe. If the DK is allowed to set up a combo while we watch and presumably start our own combo, they may spam Flames of Oblivion (or Cauterize) and they will try to place some DoTs on us, then go for the stun, because otherwise we'd just dodge or block their whip. Once stunned, they may either try to leap and then whip, or whip and then leap. If they try to leap without us being stunned, it does so little damage when blocked and they are vulnerable during the leap. Once the whip is used, it must be charged again, and if we are still doing well, this DK has likely decided to line-of-sight us (run away) to regain a bit of health/buffs/resources and try again.
Now, the other whip morph Flame Lash that becomes Power Lash [snip] is procced by an enemy that is Off-Balance. A DK can proc Off-Balance by hitting an immobilised or stunned person or have help from someone else, and this whip hits about as hard as Dizzying Swing, but not for long - Off-Balance has a cool-down.
If Mara's Balm, Rallying Cry, and some Ult-Gen sets disappeared, life would become very difficult for most DKs.
The whip is fine. The class is doing well and needs no additional buffs at this time.
Nerfing DK won't stop people from taking 15k+ Incaps and 15-20k+ Assassin's Wills. If we focus DK, we may forget that these numbers are a thing.
ZOS, please give some love to Sorcs, Stamplars, and non-bomber Cros in PvP, thank you.
[Minor edit for Bait.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on February 10, 2023 1:52AM3 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Molten whip does have an indicator for its charge level.
At level one, the character's eyes glow red. At level two, that also gives a glow around their head. Level 3 is eyes, head, and it looks like there's another particle effect on top of their head.
The animation of a level 3 whip is also different. That's the one where they jump and spin around instead of just whipping.2 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭…DK does, in fact, already have a telegraph that the Molten Whip morph is buffed! If they are aiming at you - because they must aim the whip, it can't do a 360 - you can see their eyes become the same bright orange as the fire-cloud they're now wearing over their chest.
ZOS, please give some love to Sorcs, Stamplars, and non-bomber Cros in PvP, thank you.
The fact that it’s a question whether or not it gives off a visual effect, shows just how bad of an indicator it is, it’s camouflaged by all of the other effects the class gets from abilities like Flames of Oblivion.tomofhyrule wrote: »Molten whip does have an indicator for its charge level.
At level one, the character's eyes glow red. At level two, that also gives a glow around their head. Level 3 is eyes, head, and it looks like there's another particle effect on top of their head.
The animation of a level 3 whip is also different. That's the one where they jump and spin around instead of just whipping.
Those visuals you’re referencing are indistinguishable from Flames of Oblivion like previously mentioned. They need to be more distinct.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 10, 2023 10:43PM3 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭At the end of the day, providing an effective and minor fix, like making an indication that whip is charged more visible, is not how corrections are made for this game. Things do not happen in fine-tuned increments.
Look at what happened to jabs. I don’t enjoy playing Templar, but I know that jabs were an integral part of its class identity. And that piece is no longer viable for PVP.
My guess is that one day DK will get hit with the hammer. But it won’t be soon.Edited by Caribou77 on February 10, 2023 1:55AM0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Molten whip does have an indicator for its charge level.
At level one, the character's eyes glow red. At level two, that also gives a glow around their head. Level 3 is eyes, head, and it looks like there's another particle effect on top of their head.
The animation of a level 3 whip is also different. That's the one where they jump and spin around instead of just whipping.
Not hardly visible enough and clearly far more prevalent for the actual player. If anything, way too small for such a significant action.
Very similar to corrosive where as many effects are going on, it is not a great indicator.
Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions3 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »When a player has all three stacks of Seething Fury, there needs to a visual indicator on that player, similar to Flames of Oblivion, that they have a Power Lash, otherwise why are we putting clouds around people that have a Haunting Curse or a giant ray above players with a Power of the Light active?
It already exists as their eyes will be glowing with fire with a bit of a flame like halo over their head when they have all 3 seething fury stacks.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK3 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great news!
DK does, in fact, already have a telegraph that the Molten Whip morph is buffed!
My dude the eyes are pixels among particle vomit overload in 10FPS.
You are also definitely stunned because nothing stops their 2 stage stun from going off,
and already tried to break free twice with 300 ping. And that's not just me that's most folks.
3