update 35 almost kill the game

blue_peaceful_Manticore

yes or no?

it was not only U35 It was all the mountaion of **** ZoS change before it. But now... game is almost death. I Spend 30 minutes easy just to find people for one vTrial. No tanks, no Healers....
and after that time. DPS start living group and go other games too...


so sad...

Jaimeh

I can only speak for my own perspective and communities, but things have definitely quieted down since U35. My prog group is on infinite hiatus, social guilds struggle to fill even casual runs, and a lot of players have swapped to other games. The game is not dead by any means, but the constant combat chages and U35 in particular have chased away a lot of people or at the very least impacted their playtime (sending courage to templar mains ). At least ZOS listened and the changes this patch were minimal, but I don't know if it was enough to bring people back.

blue_peaceful_Manticore

Jaimeh wrote: »

I can only speak for my own perspective and communities, but things have definitely quieted down since U35. My prog group is on infinite hiatus, social guilds struggle to fill even casual runs, and a lot of players have swapped to other games. The game is not dead by any means, but the constant combat chages and U35 in particular have chased away a lot of people or at the very least impacted their playtime (sending courage to templar mains ). At least ZOS listened and the changes this patch were minimal, but I don't know if it was enough to bring people back.

bring people back?! There's almost noone in game.
This is my bigest guild with most active players:

Amottica

The game population has been fairly steady the past few months and each of the past three months we have had a larger average population than the same months in 2019, the last set of these months before COVID increase the population. Peak population is slightly down but the average shows a more sustain population.

While Steam only shows Steam users which is specific to PC it is unbiased information and the only source of actual population data we have. It indicates the game was not even close to being killed by any recent update since it would be hard to argue that only players that avoid Steam have quit the game and did so in droves.

blue_peaceful_Manticore

Amottica wrote: »

The game population has been fairly steady the past few months and each of the past three months we have had a larger average population than the same months in 2019, the last set of these months before COVID increase the population. Peak population is slightly down but the average shows a more sustain population.

While Steam only shows Steam users which is specific to PC it is unbiased information and the only source of actual population data we have. It indicates the game was not even close to being killed by any recent update since it would be hard to argue that only players that avoid Steam have quit the game and did so in droves.

invite me to your vTrial group please. After 1:30 minutes of waiting in Craglorn... i see no vTrial shouting

DemonicGoat

Amottica wrote: »

The game population has been fairly steady the past few months

Hey Ask NefasQS how his trial prog group is going?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

CrashTest

Don't know about other content bc I'm only in PvE endgame rn. I can definitely say PvE endgame has much less players. You know things are bad when you start a raid in primetime and struggle to fill DPS spots.

redspecter23

I don't think U35 almost killed the game, but I do think it was a monumentally horrible idea on a very core level that should have been spotted long before PTS even began.

New game updates should ALWAYS be exciting, fun events that players anticipate with joy. We should be looking forward to new features and bug fixes. New interesting mechanics, skills, gear, etc.

If it's EVER realized internally that any update will do the opposite and fill the community with fear, anger, regret, distrust or anything along those lines just don't do it! ZOS knew ahead of time that players would have a "knee jerk" reaction. They knew they were releasing something that people wouldn't really like.

Why?

Was it worth it? I would say a huge NO on every level.

And that's the big takeaway right there. This game is 8+ years old. Producing any update that essentially pushes players out the door is an idea and concept so mind boggling that you might want to toss in some sort of Q & A along with that update to attempt to explain logically why you would ever want to do such a thing.

peacenote

Unless a patch is released where absolutely no one can log in for a long time, no single update will "kill" the game in such an obvious way. That's why the population still looks ok. There are people who mostly just do housing. Who mostly just quest. Who mostly just log in to do events. And so on.

From what I can tell anecdotally, end game PvE is not doing well. There just seem to be no fills, still... at least not when I play on my server. Very little Crag advertising for trials unless there is an event for double drops. And the lack of fills causes people to call runs faster and faster.

What people don't realize is that if end game PvE gets worse, it will probably slowly seep into the rest of the game. A lot of those folks teach others, invest heavily in the Crown Store, carry others when they are new so they don't quit, and participate in all of the more casual content.

So it is too soon to tell but things don't feel great. My own prog trial group just keeps backsliding with progress because we keep losing the experienced players. Are some groups doing ok? Sure. But I think right now end game is mostly comprised of people who "just got there" and weren't following it before, and have that optimistic newness, and people who are loyal to the game and hanging around to see if things get better. I don't have proof, though... just a general feeling from my experiences and watching Discords and whatnot.

One other thing I will say. Somehow, it seems concerningly significant that we got a sincere apology and a pet for the issues with the Firesong release, compared to the continued silence on the BIG issues u33 and u35 brought. The Firesong release was obviously just errors that definitely would ultimately be fixed.... not nearly as big of a deal as game-disrupting changes with broad objections from large swaths of players. It makes me feel like they don't care about what they did to the community with u33 and u35.

Ariordin

Between U35 and U36 the recent reviews on Steam are now down to Mixed. The game has been crusing along at Very Positive with a few dips to Mostly Positive for years. Looking at the reviews themselves, the negative ones are a mix of angry longtime players and newer ones.

So yeah it looks like overall the last few months have seen ESO tank.

Amottica

EnKor wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The game population has been fairly steady the past few months and each of the past three months we have had a larger average population than the same months in 2019, the last set of these months before COVID increase the population. Peak population is slightly down but the average shows a more sustain population.

While Steam only shows Steam users which is specific to PC it is unbiased information and the only source of actual population data we have. It indicates the game was not even close to being killed by any recent update since it would be hard to argue that only players that avoid Steam have quit the game and did so in droves.

invite me to your vTrial group please. After 1:30 minutes of waiting in Craglorn... i see no vTrial shouting

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The game population has been fairly steady the past few months

Hey Ask NefasQS how his trial prog group is going?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

The title clearly stated the game is dead. I merely pointing out thanksgiving was incorrect with proof.

Once specific segment being less than stellar doesn’t mean the game is deaf. It just means that area of interest or at least some parts of that area have declined.

kargen27

To be fair even way before 35 dropped there were nights when nobody was starting pug trials for vet content. For quite a long time any shout out in chat has usually been a guild filling a spot or two. With few exceptions most vet trials take more coordination than what a pug can produce.
The guilds I am in still run like they have for a while. Trial groups still fill and we still have good participation in our trial learning runs.


There has been a drop in players starting normal trial groups. I see people asking to join a group, sometimes enough that if someone would just start the group it would fill. Seems nobody wants to be the one that organizes the group though. So maybe the players that were stepping up to start groups have moved on to either other games or different content in ESO?

I also think part of the problem with finding trial groups is we have way to many special events. Seems we get a two week event every three weeks. I'm not really seeing less players, just players doing different things.

Noerra

I personally unsubbed - but I still got gametime as I was an on annual subscription. I'm honestly disappointed with ESO. I don't want to quit as ESO has been my favorite game for quite sometime and I have lots of fun memories. But it's just that... memories... ESO lost it's roots it feels like and I don't feel like a respected player and customer anymore... I feel like I'm just being fed more Crown Store stuff than actually fun and challenging content. I feel not like a player/customer, but like a cash cow they want to milk for all I got with the Crown Store.

The foundation of the game is there, but the philosophy, theory, and execution feels off. I'm just not the player/customer that ZoS wants

I've pretty much completely switched to GW2. I play it a lot. I still WANT to play ESO. I WANT Eso to be my main game... but It's just not worth it with the current state of the game. The direction of the game has me very concerned and if there isn't any positive shifts or promises to do better by the developers, I will quit forever when my sub ends in February and not look back.

But until then, I'll stay up to date with ESO developments hoping for a brighter future.

Carcamongus

ESO has a wide range of activities in which players can partake. While it's reasonable to say the endgamers took a nasty beating with U35, it's not reasonable to claim the entire game was almost killed because devs wrecked one group's fun. What worries me is if they're fine with what they did to endgamers, they might be equally fine to make comparable mistakes regarding other groups.

Cadbury

Carcamongus wrote: »

ESO has a wide range of activities in which players can partake. While it's reasonable to say the endgamers took a nasty beating with U35, it's not reasonable to claim the entire game was almost killed because devs wrecked one group's fun. What worries me is if they're fine with what they did to endgamers, they might be equally fine to make comparable mistakes regarding other groups.

The AwA change seems to suggest they are equally adept at targeting all groups. It just takes time.

Agenericname

Cadbury wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

ESO has a wide range of activities in which players can partake. While it's reasonable to say the endgamers took a nasty beating with U35, it's not reasonable to claim the entire game was almost killed because devs wrecked one group's fun. What worries me is if they're fine with what they did to endgamers, they might be equally fine to make comparable mistakes regarding other groups.

The AwA change seems to suggest they are equally adept at targeting all groups. It just takes time.

Not to mention that they're not all back in the office yet. Give 'em some time and they'll be able to get the others.

Kusto

EnKor wrote: »

yes or no?

it was not only U35 It was all the mountaion of **** ZoS change before it. But now... game is almost death. I Spend 30 minutes easy just to find people for one vTrial. No tanks, no Healers....
and after that time. DPS start living group and go other games too...


so sad...

On PC/NA Craglorn is packed during primetime, multiple instances. Dps spots always fill quick for vets. The reason you cant find support roles easily is the same as with dungeons - everyone wants to play dps, even if they only do 5k dps. Also no decent tank wants to join pug vet trial unless for lul's. Its because most of the pug runs fail, often at 1st boss. You can only guarantee clear if vHRC and vAA with full pug. The rest, it depends if someone is actually leading, everyone in voice, partly guild etc.
Last night I saw in zone "LF 2 tanks 2 heals 7 dps for vHoF" lol. I did some dungeons and an hour later saw the same guy still spamming "LF 2 tanks vHoF then gtg".

PS
Also the block bug we have currently is a turnoff for many tanks.

Thorntongue

no

FeedbackOnly

Ariordin wrote: »

Between U35 and U36 the recent reviews on Steam are now down to Mixed. The game has been crusing along at Very Positive with a few dips to Mostly Positive for years. Looking at the reviews themselves, the negative ones are a mix of angry longtime players and newer ones.

So yeah it looks like overall the last few months have seen ESO tank.

And prices are increasing fast as nobody is selling

Sockermannen

While i would not say that U35 killed the game, it is most certainly in a much less lively now than before on the PvE scene. One prog guild i was a part of closed down because raid leads went ”if we’re gonna have another one of these patches then i’m not sticking around”, my other more casual raid guilds are struggling to fill up and craglorn is a shell of what it once was for trials.

i have some friends that are way more casual than i am and they say that they have not noticed much which is good for them. That said the PvE endgame scene is much less lively now than it was before and since i play this game for raids and vet HM DLC dungeons i can say that U35 did indeed kill the game for me by quite a bit.

me_ming

Most guild ads I see in zone chat (PC/NA) are either casual social PvE guilds or RP guilds, and they are the same guilds I see over and over again. Nothing wrong with those guilds per se, but where are the PvP guilds, the end game PvE guilds, the trading guilds?

robwolf666

Honestly, with the way I play, I've not noticed that much of a difference. I think the biggest adjustment I've had to make is adapting the timing on some skills, pretty easy when you've been playing for so long. I haven't had to drastically change any builds, primarily because my builds are my builds, I don't care about having them optimised to superhero status, I play what I like, even if it's "weaker" than others.

AcadianPaladin

Experience has taught me to dread updates that involve combat changes and U35 really took the cake on that count.

UnabashedlyHonest

me_ming wrote: »

Most guild ads I see in zone chat (PC/NA) are either casual social PvE guilds or RP guilds, and they are the same guilds I see over and over again. Nothing wrong with those guilds per se, but where are the PvP guilds, the end game PvE guilds, the trading guilds?

me_ming wrote: »

Most guild ads I see in zone chat (PC/NA) are either casual social PvE guilds or RP guilds, and they are the same guilds I see over and over again. Nothing wrong with those guilds per se, but where are the PvP guilds, the end game PvE guilds, the trading guilds?

They've been so neglected for so long that they have come to the conclusion that things will never change. ESO is just for casual questers now.

DemonicGoat

redspecter23 wrote: »

They've been so neglected for so long that they have come to the conclusion that things will never change. ESO is just for casual questers now.

It makes sense, they(casual questers)are easier to cater to when a server is in maintenance mode,.. pvp and endgame communities that traditionally expect high levels of engagement and a stable,robust game not only are lots of work but the relationship ESO(devs) has with endgame and pvp communities has been strained for years over the lack of follow through when it comes to promises made to those communities and It also appears that the toxicity resulting from that has affected the devs and how they see and treat those communities.

peacenote

kargen27 wrote: »

To be fair even way before 35 dropped there were nights when nobody was starting pug trials for vet content.

Well u33 impacted end gamers too. Now, there were pro-AwA end gamers who wanted titles to show on any alt and wanted achievements to be account-wide because it was frustrating to not be able to switch toons when the meta switched. And, as a Templar main post u35, I do get it. However, those folks, despite the complaints, were still playing and would work through the content again when they swapped toons. "Getting you your clear" is a big end game teamwork thing. The people in the pro-AwA camp are probably happier post-AwA but the end result is likely that they are playing less, I bet, because now they don't need the clears.

On the flip side, there were lots of people (like myself) who were actively motivated to repeat content pre-AwA... to be a fill, to start over, etc. whose entire game went from a wide variety of content to be completed to it just being "done." Pre-AwA comments like, "oh I haven't taken my necro tank through that yet, that'll be fun" or "oh my new stamplar hasn't done that yet, I'll go if you don't mind if I bring a baby toon" were quite common. I know that I for one used to run pledges all the time, and I would get excited to swap to a toon that hadn't completed all the achievements yet. Post-AwA I almost NEVER do pledges because my fun little to-do list is gone. So all the folks who raised this as an issue also either quit or play less.

My point is, many people said AwA would "kill" end game too. And iirc the other thing that pushed a bunch of players out the door was the decision on vMA weapons. So this HAS been going on for a while and that's why U35 was so problematic. It was the last straw for a lot of folks. Step by step changes are being released which are either accidentally or intentionally gutting many of the reasons end gamers enjoyed and spent time in PvE end game. It adds up, and I think that's what we are feeling. Not dead but definitely wounded.

FlopsyPrince

The root problem is that ESO has no good feedback loop from players.

Many here will instantly proclaim they cannot respond to all care bear requests, so that reinforcing the feeling of being ignored.

When was the last time any significant number of players (or at least posters here, which represent the group as those willing to comment) had their concerns directly and properly addressed? I would be curious to know if I am missing some cases where player feedback had an impact.

FlopsyPrince

DemonicGoat wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

They've been so neglected for so long that they have come to the conclusion that things will never change. ESO is just for casual questers now.

It makes sense, they(casual questers)are easier to cater to when a server is in maintenance mode,.. pvp and endgame communities that traditionally expect high levels of engagement and a stable,robust game not only are lots of work but the relationship ESO(devs) has with endgame and pvp communities has been strained for years over the lack of follow through when it comes to promises made to those communities and It also appears that the toxicity resulting from that has affected the devs and how they see and treat those communities.

Many of us "casuals" would like some engagement as well.

Kappachi

update 35 saved the game for me, it was too easy before and it was getting to the point you wouldn't even see boss mechanics in veteran dungeons; now everything is balanced, dungeons are fun and challenging to go through again, ETC.

BlakMarket

Kappachi wrote: »

update 35 saved the game for me, it was too easy before and it was getting to the point you wouldn't even see boss mechanics in veteran dungeons; now everything is balanced, dungeons are fun and challenging to go through again, ETC.

I dont know what game you're playing, Update 35 didn't make the game harder it made the game mind numbingly easier.

Kappachi

BlakMarket wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

update 35 saved the game for me, it was too easy before and it was getting to the point you wouldn't even see boss mechanics in veteran dungeons; now everything is balanced, dungeons are fun and challenging to go through again, ETC.

I dont know what game you're playing, Update 35 didn't make the game harder it made the game mind numbingly easier.

It made weaving and light attacks less effective which in turn turned the difficulty of content up by about 10%, what do you mean easier?