Please stop introducing OP mythics/sets that breaks game balance

kapachia

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

FluffyBird

I'm more concerned with the inevitable nerf of said mythics after they done their job selling the DLC. But I agree that a new class is a better way to spend database space than bloating sets pool. Not sure if the game could handle bigger Cyro though.

Dr_Con

FluffyBird wrote: »

Not sure if the game could handle bigger Cyro though.

They need to rethink how data is being processed i.e. vigor hitting infinity targets. We have more lag with less players due to this impossible heal amount meta shift.

Billium813

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

Players need to realize that PTS is Alpha testing and LIVE is a constant Beta testing for the previous patch.

DrSlaughtr

They can't stop. Every update has to have dungeon sets, crafted sets, Mythics, etc etc. They've decided this is the business model. Unfortunately it means nothing is ever properly play tested.

They put out new stuff for the sake of it, not because we want it. Not because we need it. And they forsake the people who play the content to chase theoretical new casual players.

Kappachi

I feel like the point of mythics and why they're so hard and grindy to get is because they're overpowered and fun to have. I absolutely love how they break the game balance and wouldn't have it any other way.

Billium813

The reason I love mythics is because they are fun, "build around" items that you get from completing a myriad of tasks (combat, non-combat) and revisiting old zones / content! Mythics (and really the whole Antiquities system) feel like a well integrated feedback loop. It feels integrated into MANY non-combat segments of the game (treasure hunting, achievement farming, non combat tasks, collecting, exploring completed zones). And it rewards players with fun things that feedback into the core gameplay; combat (PvE & PvP). Antiquities FEELS like a well thought out system and I think that is why players like it.

That's not to say it couldn't be better. It's like 80% there though! There are a couple improvements that I think it could use to really pump it up... but overall, Antiquities and Mythics are the best DLC mechanic we have had (more than Jewelry or Companions and DEFINITELY more than ToT).

Kappachi

I feel like the mythic items add more to the RPG first MMO second aspect of ESO... I want to feel like I'm playing a grand online RPG with the capability to become grossly overpowered because that's fun and that's what happens when you reach the endgame of an RPG. Nerfing and not releasing powerful items just makes progression feel meaningless, so I'm all for more mythics and endgame sets that "break the balance".

WrathOfInnos

Strange, from a PVE perspective they already did this. Now we all get to wear the harpooner's kilt for 2 years and get nothing new or interesting.

Billium813

Kappachi wrote: »

I feel like the mythic items add more to the RPG first MMO second aspect of ESO... I want to feel like I'm playing a grand online RPG with the capability to become grossly overpowered because that's fun and that's what happens when you reach the endgame of an RPG. Nerfing and not releasing powerful items just makes progression feel meaningless, so I'm all for more mythics and endgame sets that "break the balance".

Can you define "endgame" in ESO? When would it be acceptable to bestow "grossly overpowered" items to players in ESO? It would have to be at a time that doesn't end up completely oversimplifying the rest of the game that the player hasn't experienced yet. It can be unfun to be too strong; where's the challenge in that? This isn't a game you just install a mod or enable hax for.

VaranisArano

ninjagank wrote: »

They can't stop. Every update has to have dungeon sets, crafted sets, Mythics, etc etc. They've decided this is the business model. Unfortunately it means nothing is ever properly play tested.

They put out new stuff for the sake of it, not because we want it. Not because we need it. And they forsake the people who play the content to chase theoretical new casual players.

I'd say they put new OP stuff out because people will buy the content for the Mythics, whether because they want it's gimmick or feel they need it to be competitive. Look no further than how Oakensoul drummed up a lot of interest in High Isle.

And as long as people buy content for the exclusive Mythics (forgetting history that it will inevitably be nerfed to sell the next amazing Mythic to make them competitive again), ZOS will continue to make $$$ off this cycle.

This is indeed a business model, and it's profitable for ZOS.

DrSlaughtr

VaranisArano wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

They can't stop. Every update has to have dungeon sets, crafted sets, Mythics, etc etc. They've decided this is the business model. Unfortunately it means nothing is ever properly play tested.

They put out new stuff for the sake of it, not because we want it. Not because we need it. And they forsake the people who play the content to chase theoretical new casual players.

I'd say they put new OP stuff out because people will buy the content for the Mythics, whether because they want it's gimmick or feel they need it to be competitive. Look no further than how Oakensoul drummed up a lot of interest in High Isle.

And as long as people buy content for the exclusive Mythics (forgetting history that it will inevitably be nerfed to sell the next amazing Mythic to make them competitive again), ZOS will continue to make $$$ off this cycle.

This is indeed a business model, and it's profitable for ZOS.

I don't think they purposefully put out content they know will be used to cheese the game. It doesn't seem malicious to me. But the result is the same. They continually underestimate the impact these additions will have and then ignore warnings telling them so during pts because by the time the pts begins they are so rigid they rarely walk anything back.

Kappachi

Billium813 wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

I feel like the mythic items add more to the RPG first MMO second aspect of ESO... I want to feel like I'm playing a grand online RPG with the capability to become grossly overpowered because that's fun and that's what happens when you reach the endgame of an RPG. Nerfing and not releasing powerful items just makes progression feel meaningless, so I'm all for more mythics and endgame sets that "break the balance".

Can you define "endgame" in ESO? When would it be acceptable to bestow "grossly overpowered" items to players in ESO? It would have to be at a time that doesn't end up completely oversimplifying the rest of the game that the player hasn't experienced yet. It can be unfun to be too strong; where's the challenge in that? This isn't a game you just install a mod or enable hax for.

It should be given as it already is, at the end of antiquities line which takes a long time to grind out for master/ultimate level scries or as rewards from veteran trials/other hard endgame content.

vgabor

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

Billium813

vgabor wrote: »

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

I really like the design for Mora's Whispers and how it uses non-combat stats for scaling! Bummer it's a shoulder piece and conflicts with Monster Sets... but still a great Mythic design in my book.

Mora's Whispers

1 item: Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and 15% monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected.

I think the bigger issue is that ESO needs more non-combat activities in general (agility courses, puzzle trap mazes, parkour, jumping puzzles, jousting and other medieval faire activities). I think the latest dungeon Graven Deep had some great puzzle traps that would be awesome in more places in the game.

Mesite

I agree but only because I can't be bothered to do any scrying

FluffyBird

Billium813 wrote: »

vgabor wrote: »

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

I really like the design for Mora's Whispers and how it uses non-combat stats for scaling! Bummer it's a shoulder piece and conflicts with Monster Sets... but still a great Mythic design in my book.

Mora's Whispers

1 item: Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and 15% monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected.

I think the bigger issue is that ESO needs more non-combat activities in general (agility courses, puzzle trap mazes, parkour, jumping puzzles, jousting and other medieval faire activities). I think the latest dungeon Graven Deep had some great puzzle traps that would be awesome in more places in the game.

I do love me some non-combat activities, and ESO does have a bit (but I'm picky)

• Fishing - boring (I'd prefer either actively doing something to catch a fish, or have it as a completely AFK activity)
• Crating - boring too, imo
• ToT I found frustrating
• Antiquities are still moderately pleasant
• Hunting for museum pieces by clues was sooooo fun, it's a shame that now they are leads we are supposed to stumble upon by chance. At least clues could stay.
• That grappling hook course in Southern Elsweyr was also very enjoyable, I'd love to see more.
• Dungeon secrets, like the indrik or additional bosses are awesome, but I'm so salty that we can't solo/duo some of them #FUFinn

Billium813

FluffyBird wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

vgabor wrote: »

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

I really like the design for Mora's Whispers and how it uses non-combat stats for scaling! Bummer it's a shoulder piece and conflicts with Monster Sets... but still a great Mythic design in my book.

Mora's Whispers

1 item: Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and 15% monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected.

I think the bigger issue is that ESO needs more non-combat activities in general (agility courses, puzzle trap mazes, parkour, jumping puzzles, jousting and other medieval faire activities). I think the latest dungeon Graven Deep had some great puzzle traps that would be awesome in more places in the game.

I do love me some non-combat activities, and ESO does have a bit (but I'm picky)

• Fishing - boring (I'd prefer either actively doing something to catch a fish, or have it as a completely AFK activity)
• Crating - boring too, imo
• ToT I found frustrating
• Antiquities are still moderately pleasant
• Hunting for museum pieces by clues was sooooo fun, it's a shame that now they are leads we are supposed to stumble upon by chance. At least clues could stay.
• That grappling hook course in Southern Elsweyr was also very enjoyable, I'd love to see more.
• Dungeon secrets, like the indrik or additional bosses are awesome, but I'm so salty that we can't solo/duo some of them #FUFinn

Ah, museum pieces and collectable items! I did love Kari's Hit List and Litany of Blood when I first found these were a thing. It's a shame they don't do these zone collectables anymore (or haven't since the Bards College in Greymoor). They were really well designed and full of flavor! The first ones were spread around Tamriel and a great quest. They later became more of a zone specific DLC mechanic, but still fun. Now they don't even do them anymore (Just like Arenas). And people wonder what I mean when I say "recent zone mechanics have been lazy and copy/paste". Now I'm sad

virtus753

Billium813 wrote: »

vgabor wrote: »

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

I really like the design for Mora's Whispers and how it uses non-combat stats for scaling! Bummer it's a shoulder piece and conflicts with Monster Sets... but still a great Mythic design in my book.

Mora's Whispers

1 item: Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and 15% monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected.

Now if only they’d let us test it on the PTS efficiently. I suspect one reason it gets overlooked a lot is that there is no way to do so. Template characters start with full Mages Guild through the same crown store mechanism that opens the line without granting any of the 297 books that power Mora’s Whispers. Who wants to spend double digit hours just to get a piece ready for testing, especially when that progress will get erased?

Billium813

virtus753 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

vgabor wrote: »

Would be nice actually to have some non-combat mythics as well... Apart from wild hunt there's no any else currently...

I really like the design for Mora's Whispers and how it uses non-combat stats for scaling! Bummer it's a shoulder piece and conflicts with Monster Sets... but still a great Mythic design in my book.

Mora's Whispers

1 item: Gain up to 1528 Critical Chance and 10% increased Inspiration, Alliance Rank, Alliance skill, and 15% monster kill experience based off how many books of Shalidor's Library have been collected.

Now if only they’d let us test it on the PTS efficiently. I suspect one reason it gets overlooked a lot is that there is no way to do so. Template characters start with full Mages Guild through the same crown store mechanism that opens the line without granting any of the 297 books that power Mora’s Whispers. Who wants to spend double digit hours just to get a piece ready for testing, especially when that progress will get erased?

Oh, interesting! I never tested Mora's Whispers on the PTS; the stats seemed pretty straight forward. I didn't realize that they didn't update the template character to give all lore books. The books are a stable feature in base game, right? IOW, they aren't expanding Shalidor's Library. Should be safe to update the template. I guess it wasn't high on the priority list, but it SHOULD be easy to do...

YandereGirlfriend

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

The core problem of the post-Elsweyr expansions are that they've all introduced new, non-combat systems and each of these systems requires developer resources on an ongoing basis.

Given the (probable) assumption that developer personnel have not increased, this means that as Antiquities, Companions, and ToT gain, core combat and zone content must necessarily lose. It's zero-sum and the non-combat folks are the ones who have been winning over the last three years.

This is likely why every expansion feels like it's smaller than the one before - because so much developer time is already siphoned away supporting these new systems that there is only a fraction of what used to be available to do anything else.

Billium813

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

The core problem of the post-Elsweyr expansions are that they've all introduced new, non-combat systems and each of these systems requires developer resources on an ongoing basis.

Given the (probable) assumption that developer personnel have not increased, this means that as Antiquities, Companions, and ToT gain, core combat and zone content must necessarily lose. It's zero-sum and the non-combat folks are the ones who have been winning over the last three years.

Not sure I agree completely. Specifically that "non-combat" folks are the ones who have been winning. What "non-combat" mechanics specifically have they provided (don't you dare say "ToT")? I don't include ToT, while a great example, because it's too far removed from the entire base game. It might as well be a completely separate app in the PlayStore.

For instance, before Antiquities, we had museum collections.

Some examples:

• Southern Elsweyr - Pieces of History — Gather pieces of the priceless Khajiit tapestry, Khajiit of the Moons, to honor its history and inspire the citizens of Senchal.
• Gold Coast - Litany of Blood — Assassinate targets marked by the Dark Brotherhood and send their souls to the Void.
• Murkmire - Xinchei-Konu Monument — Retrieve the 12 tablets stolen from the Xinchei-Konu Monument.
• Western Skyrim - Bards College — Locate and retrieve all 19 musical instruments and deliver them to the Bards College in Solitude.

These zone mechanics are chock full of flavor and lore! They are fun scavenger hunts and some require exploration of many zones, not just the DLC zone they are centered on.

THEN we got Antiquities in Greymoor...

Now, that isn't to say that I dislike Antiquities. I think it's the best game mechanic they have added... ever. However, Mythics and Antiquities have no flavor or lore... and yet they have replaced museum collections entirely! Flavor has been sacrificed for a game mechanic that is MUCH easier to copy/paste into each new DLC. I mean... it's lazy design, let's be honest. Antiquities is great and fun and awesome, but it's designed to be copy/paste with minimal work from ZOS and just a conduit for giving players Mythics (a fine mechanic, but also entirely devoid of lore). I just ask "why can't we have both Antiquities AND Museum collections? Why is it apparently one or the other? Western Skyrim had both.

FluffyBird

Well, Antiquities actually do have associated lore. I'm not sure if it's considered to be good and interesting lore, but it is there.

YandereGirlfriend

Billium813 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

The core problem of the post-Elsweyr expansions are that they've all introduced new, non-combat systems and each of these systems requires developer resources on an ongoing basis.

Given the (probable) assumption that developer personnel have not increased, this means that as Antiquities, Companions, and ToT gain, core combat and zone content must necessarily lose. It's zero-sum and the non-combat folks are the ones who have been winning over the last three years.

Not sure I agree completely. Specifically that "non-combat" folks are the ones who have been winning. What "non-combat" mechanics specifically have they provided (don't you dare say "ToT")? I don't include ToT, while a great example, because it's too far removed from the entire base game. It might as well be a completely separate app in the PlayStore.

For instance, before Antiquities, we had museum collections.

Some examples:

• Southern Elsweyr - Pieces of History — Gather pieces of the priceless Khajiit tapestry, Khajiit of the Moons, to honor its history and inspire the citizens of Senchal.
• Gold Coast - Litany of Blood — Assassinate targets marked by the Dark Brotherhood and send their souls to the Void.
• Murkmire - Xinchei-Konu Monument — Retrieve the 12 tablets stolen from the Xinchei-Konu Monument.
• Western Skyrim - Bards College — Locate and retrieve all 19 musical instruments and deliver them to the Bards College in Solitude.

These zone mechanics are chock full of flavor and lore! They are fun scavenger hunts and some require exploration of many zones, not just the DLC zone they are centered on.

THEN we got Antiquities in Greymoor...

Now, that isn't to say that I dislike Antiquities. I think it's the best game mechanic they have added... ever. However, Mythics and Antiquities have no flavor or lore... and yet they have replaced museum collections entirely! Flavor has been sacrificed for a game mechanic that is MUCH easier to copy/paste into each new DLC. I mean... it's lazy design, let's be honest. Antiquities is great and fun and awesome, but it's designed to be copy/paste with minimal work from ZOS and just a conduit for giving players Mythics (a fine mechanic, but also entirely devoid of lore). I just ask "why can't we have both Antiquities AND Museum collections? Why is it apparently one or the other? Western Skyrim had both.

I mean, you might not want to hear it but ToT definitely appears as though it is the single largest sink of developer resources over the last year - and this trend is only going to continue as they seem prepared to continue adding new decks and such with every new content drop. All of the effort spent in generating the art, implementation, and balance for ToT are resources not spent on the regular game.

The next largest resource sink is Companions. Each expansion, they require a great deal of VA time plus all of the effort spent on creating their unique storyline that stands independent from that of the overall zone. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that no Companions likely equals a larger zone area and storyline.

And then I'll defer to your expertise on the topic of the old Museum quests versus Antiquities. For end-game players of both PvE and PvP, Antiquities are the only one of the recent systems that actually gives us anything - it just unfortunately comes via a very long and repetitive grind. Since this is basically all we get from any recent expansion, they have to make it "worth our while" and that's why they end up being so OP, as the current thread laments.

I actually left out one more important constituent group of ESO players that the recent siphoning away of developer resources has seemingly impacted - the housing community, which has seen the supply of new, non-Crown Store houses completely dry up.

In any case, I would have hoped that for a game as seemingly profitable as ESO, that they would have increased their staffing to accommodate the increased numbers of systems currently being developed. But that appears not to be the case. And the folks interested in the original heart of the game, combat and end-game content, are the ones losing out. And like, I am happy that Isobel exists and such - I just wish that we could have her PLUS new classes and guild/weapon lines, etc. Whenever I see a FFXIV expansion drop that has three new classes plus a bunch of raids, all I can think is that that used to be us.

VaranisArano

ninjagank wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

They can't stop. Every update has to have dungeon sets, crafted sets, Mythics, etc etc. They've decided this is the business model. Unfortunately it means nothing is ever properly play tested.

They put out new stuff for the sake of it, not because we want it. Not because we need it. And they forsake the people who play the content to chase theoretical new casual players.

I'd say they put new OP stuff out because people will buy the content for the Mythics, whether because they want it's gimmick or feel they need it to be competitive. Look no further than how Oakensoul drummed up a lot of interest in High Isle.

And as long as people buy content for the exclusive Mythics (forgetting history that it will inevitably be nerfed to sell the next amazing Mythic to make them competitive again), ZOS will continue to make $$$ off this cycle.

This is indeed a business model, and it's profitable for ZOS.

I don't think they purposefully put out content they know will be used to cheese the game. It doesn't seem malicious to me. But the result is the same. They continually underestimate the impact these additions will have and then ignore warnings telling them so during pts because by the time the pts begins they are so rigid they rarely walk anything back.

I mean, they already had the Oakensoul nerfs in mind, but let it go Live as is for High Isle so they could gather data to figure out if the nerfs were necessary (despite players warning that it was), and lo and behold, they decided that, yep, it needed to be nerfed.

So yes, ZOS does purposefully let powerful mythics go Live for players to cheese content for three months, then changes it according to the Live data showing that *surprise* players cheesed it. In the case of Oakensoul, we know they had concerns and pushed it out anyway.

If this were a simple case of continual underestimating, you'd think we wouldn't have a whole club of overpowered mythics who got nerfed. Instead, we've got Thrassians Stranglers, Malacath's Band, Ring of the Pale Order, Harpooner's Wading Kilt, and good old Oakensoul. If this were a problem for ZOS, they'd balance things properly. Instead, it works just fine for them to sell players powerful items for three months and nerf them later...or if its unintended, then that's exactly what ZOS has been doing.

Billium813

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

The core problem of the post-Elsweyr expansions are that they've all introduced new, non-combat systems and each of these systems requires developer resources on an ongoing basis.

Given the (probable) assumption that developer personnel have not increased, this means that as Antiquities, Companions, and ToT gain, core combat and zone content must necessarily lose. It's zero-sum and the non-combat folks are the ones who have been winning over the last three years.

Not sure I agree completely. Specifically that "non-combat" folks are the ones who have been winning. What "non-combat" mechanics specifically have they provided (don't you dare say "ToT")? I don't include ToT, while a great example, because it's too far removed from the entire base game. It might as well be a completely separate app in the PlayStore.

For instance, before Antiquities, we had museum collections.

Some examples:

• Southern Elsweyr - Pieces of History — Gather pieces of the priceless Khajiit tapestry, Khajiit of the Moons, to honor its history and inspire the citizens of Senchal.
• Gold Coast - Litany of Blood — Assassinate targets marked by the Dark Brotherhood and send their souls to the Void.
• Murkmire - Xinchei-Konu Monument — Retrieve the 12 tablets stolen from the Xinchei-Konu Monument.
• Western Skyrim - Bards College — Locate and retrieve all 19 musical instruments and deliver them to the Bards College in Solitude.

These zone mechanics are chock full of flavor and lore! They are fun scavenger hunts and some require exploration of many zones, not just the DLC zone they are centered on.

THEN we got Antiquities in Greymoor...

Now, that isn't to say that I dislike Antiquities. I think it's the best game mechanic they have added... ever. However, Mythics and Antiquities have no flavor or lore... and yet they have replaced museum collections entirely! Flavor has been sacrificed for a game mechanic that is MUCH easier to copy/paste into each new DLC. I mean... it's lazy design, let's be honest. Antiquities is great and fun and awesome, but it's designed to be copy/paste with minimal work from ZOS and just a conduit for giving players Mythics (a fine mechanic, but also entirely devoid of lore). I just ask "why can't we have both Antiquities AND Museum collections? Why is it apparently one or the other? Western Skyrim had both.

I mean, you might not want to hear it but ToT definitely appears as though it is the single largest sink of developer resources over the last year - and this trend is only going to continue as they seem prepared to continue adding new decks and such with every new content drop. All of the effort spent in generating the art, implementation, and balance for ToT are resources not spent on the regular game.

The next largest resource sink is Companions. Each expansion, they require a great deal of VA time plus all of the effort spent on creating their unique storyline that stands independent from that of the overall zone. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that no Companions likely equals a larger zone area and storyline.

And then I'll defer to your expertise on the topic of the old Museum quests versus Antiquities. For end-game players of both PvE and PvP, Antiquities are the only one of the recent systems that actually gives us anything - it just unfortunately comes via a very long and repetitive grind. Since this is basically all we get from any recent expansion, they have to make it "worth our while" and that's why they end up being so OP, as the current thread laments.

I actually left out one more important constituent group of ESO players that the recent siphoning away of developer resources has seemingly impacted - the housing community, which has seen the supply of new, non-Crown Store houses completely dry up.

In any case, I would have hoped that for a game as seemingly profitable as ESO, that they would have increased their staffing to accommodate the increased numbers of systems currently being developed. But that appears not to be the case. And the folks interested in the original heart of the game, combat and end-game content, are the ones losing out. And like, I am happy that Isobel exists and such - I just wish that we could have her PLUS new classes and guild/weapon lines, etc. Whenever I see a FFXIV expansion drop that has three new classes plus a bunch of raids, all I can think is that that used to be us.

Couldn't agree more!

I do think it's a shame how much developer resources they impart to ToT for each release. The design direction of ESO is to release a DLC mechanic (Antiquities/Mythics, Companions, ToT), then each subsequent release, add more content that incentivizes players to get those zone DLC mechs. TBF, it's a good idea! Making the DLCs link together more instead of making them standalone packs is good business and decent design!

And, I have no issues with Antiquities/Mythics or, really, Companions. I already said I think Antiquities is the poster child for how ZOS should create these mechanics and I think it was a homerun. I could write an entire 4 page report on the intricacies of Antiquities and how it's good for the game. Companions... it's ok. I appreciate it for what it is and think it's a good new player / solo player system. I have no real issues (other than the overcrowding and solo gameplay it encourages...), but they seem to be handling that decently (hiding models and keeping them out of endgame playability).

ToT tho... I mean, I could also write a 4 page report on how it was a terrible choice. Where Antiquities and Companions form a symbiotic relationship with the core game, ToT forms a parasitic relationship. Not only for the obvious developer resources that are being consumed for this segment of the game, but for the much more subtle way ToT feeds nothing back into the core game. ToT should have been released as a separate mobile game. Antiquities and Companions are a means to an end (Mythics/Furnishings, improved solo gameplay). ToT is the means AND the end.
I know that many players love ToT. That's fine, loads of players enjoy Candy Crush and Clash of Clans. I have listened to a couple reviews of ToT on youtube and it seems like a good enough game to be it's own thing. Listening to the top players too, it seems a common thread is that players who are REALLY into ToT don't really do anything else in the game (dungeons, quests, furnishings) ... Again, I don't mind that it exists, I just don't think it should be in ESO, getting ESO development resources.

VaranisArano

Billium813 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

Every update we go through same thing. OP sets and mythics that break the game balance. Subsequent nerf. How about expanding Cyrodiil map or adding more class/contents?

The core problem of the post-Elsweyr expansions are that they've all introduced new, non-combat systems and each of these systems requires developer resources on an ongoing basis.

Given the (probable) assumption that developer personnel have not increased, this means that as Antiquities, Companions, and ToT gain, core combat and zone content must necessarily lose. It's zero-sum and the non-combat folks are the ones who have been winning over the last three years.

Not sure I agree completely. Specifically that "non-combat" folks are the ones who have been winning. What "non-combat" mechanics specifically have they provided (don't you dare say "ToT")? I don't include ToT, while a great example, because it's too far removed from the entire base game. It might as well be a completely separate app in the PlayStore.

For instance, before Antiquities, we had museum collections.

Some examples:

• Southern Elsweyr - Pieces of History — Gather pieces of the priceless Khajiit tapestry, Khajiit of the Moons, to honor its history and inspire the citizens of Senchal.
• Gold Coast - Litany of Blood — Assassinate targets marked by the Dark Brotherhood and send their souls to the Void.
• Murkmire - Xinchei-Konu Monument — Retrieve the 12 tablets stolen from the Xinchei-Konu Monument.
• Western Skyrim - Bards College — Locate and retrieve all 19 musical instruments and deliver them to the Bards College in Solitude.

These zone mechanics are chock full of flavor and lore! They are fun scavenger hunts and some require exploration of many zones, not just the DLC zone they are centered on.

THEN we got Antiquities in Greymoor...

Now, that isn't to say that I dislike Antiquities. I think it's the best game mechanic they have added... ever. However, Mythics and Antiquities have no flavor or lore... and yet they have replaced museum collections entirely! Flavor has been sacrificed for a game mechanic that is MUCH easier to copy/paste into each new DLC. I mean... it's lazy design, let's be honest. Antiquities is great and fun and awesome, but it's designed to be copy/paste with minimal work from ZOS and just a conduit for giving players Mythics (a fine mechanic, but also entirely devoid of lore). I just ask "why can't we have both Antiquities AND Museum collections? Why is it apparently one or the other? Western Skyrim had both.

I mean, you might not want to hear it but ToT definitely appears as though it is the single largest sink of developer resources over the last year - and this trend is only going to continue as they seem prepared to continue adding new decks and such with every new content drop. All of the effort spent in generating the art, implementation, and balance for ToT are resources not spent on the regular game.

The next largest resource sink is Companions. Each expansion, they require a great deal of VA time plus all of the effort spent on creating their unique storyline that stands independent from that of the overall zone. I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that no Companions likely equals a larger zone area and storyline.

And then I'll defer to your expertise on the topic of the old Museum quests versus Antiquities. For end-game players of both PvE and PvP, Antiquities are the only one of the recent systems that actually gives us anything - it just unfortunately comes via a very long and repetitive grind. Since this is basically all we get from any recent expansion, they have to make it "worth our while" and that's why they end up being so OP, as the current thread laments.

I actually left out one more important constituent group of ESO players that the recent siphoning away of developer resources has seemingly impacted - the housing community, which has seen the supply of new, non-Crown Store houses completely dry up.

In any case, I would have hoped that for a game as seemingly profitable as ESO, that they would have increased their staffing to accommodate the increased numbers of systems currently being developed. But that appears not to be the case. And the folks interested in the original heart of the game, combat and end-game content, are the ones losing out. And like, I am happy that Isobel exists and such - I just wish that we could have her PLUS new classes and guild/weapon lines, etc. Whenever I see a FFXIV expansion drop that has three new classes plus a bunch of raids, all I can think is that that used to be us.

Couldn't agree more!

I do think it's a shame how much developer resources they impart to ToT for each release. The design direction of ESO is to release a DLC mechanic (Antiquities/Mythics, Companions, ToT), then each subsequent release, add more content that incentivizes players to get those zone DLC mechs. TBF, it's a good idea! Making the DLCs link together more instead of making them standalone packs is good business and decent design!

And, I have no issues with Antiquities/Mythics or, really, Companions. I already said I think Antiquities is the poster child for how ZOS should create these mechanics and I think it was a homerun. I could write an entire 4 page report on the intricacies of Antiquities and how it's good for the game. Companions... it's ok. I appreciate it for what it is and think it's a good new player / solo player system. I have no real issues (other than the overcrowding and solo gameplay it encourages...), but they seem to be handling that decently (hiding models and keeping them out of endgame playability).

ToT tho... I mean, I could also write a 4 page report on how it was a terrible choice. Where Antiquities and Companions form a symbiotic relationship with the core game, ToT forms a parasitic relationship. Not only for the obvious developer resources that are being consumed for this segment of the game, but for the much more subtle way ToT feeds nothing back into the core game. ToT should have been released as a separate mobile game. Antiquities and Companions are a means to an end (Mythics/Furnishings, improved solo gameplay). ToT is the means AND the end.
I know that many players love ToT. That's fine, loads of players enjoy Candy Crush and Clash of Clans. I have listened to a couple reviews of ToT on youtube and it seems like a good enough game to be it's own thing. Listening to the top players too, it seems a common thread is that players who are REALLY into ToT don't really do anything else in the game (dungeons, quests, furnishings) ... Again, I don't mind that it exists, I just don't think it should be in ESO, getting ESO development resources.

I think I can hazard a guess as to what ZOS thinks it's getting out of Tales of Tribute in ESO, based off of Rich Lambert's recent interview: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/building-an-mmo-for-solo-players-in-the-elder-scrolls-online-1

"The hardest part in all of that is trying to figure out the roadmap of things," he adds. "It's a persistent world so players are always in there; what other alternate activities that they're doing? The story only takes you so far. We launch a chapter that has 30 to 40 hours of content in it and hardcore players will polish that off in a week and they're like 'Give us more'. We can't build content fast enough. We have to have all those supporting systems on top."

So as I see it, Tales of Tribute is a massive timesink of a supporting system. It keeps some players online in ESO long after they've finished the quest content. If it's addictive to players who otherwise don't touch dungeons, trials, or PVP, that's probably all to the better for ZOS!

And since ESO is an MMO, it really wants players spending time online, as well as money. So by that metric, ToT may well be a success for the Devs' point of view.

chrisfeng

Kilt has been around for quite a while. Plus, I don't see any problem for players to access 5% more dps even if they can't do trials.
Complaining about mythics, which at least give players something to do in old zones, while not complaining about new trials sets, don't seem fair.

KingExecration

Can’t, money printer go brrr.

Also makes balance team look like they balance and pay attention to things when they nerf overpowered mythics. Reality is that the big nerf prepares the next set of overpowered mythics to repeat the process with.
Apply the same to classes, necro looking awfully lame? Prob another class coming

Billium813

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think I can hazard a guess as to what ZOS thinks it's getting out of Tales of Tribute in ESO, based off of Rich Lambert's recent interview: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/building-an-mmo-for-solo-players-in-the-elder-scrolls-online-1

"The hardest part in all of that is trying to figure out the roadmap of things," he adds. "It's a persistent world so players are always in there; what other alternate activities that they're doing? The story only takes you so far. We launch a chapter that has 30 to 40 hours of content in it and hardcore players will polish that off in a week and they're like 'Give us more'. We can't build content fast enough. We have to have all those supporting systems on top."

You know, I feel for the developers in that regard.

But, I mean, this comment seems to be discussing things like quest lines and zone content, which I am personally not complaining about. I think the zone story quests are great and well planned out. I think they do a good job telling a story and filling out 40 hours of content there! There will be players that speed through the story, then complain the game has no content, but I don't think devs should focus on that feedback.

This comment doesn't seem to speak towards the big DLC mechanics (Antiquities/Mythics, Companions). Perhaps ToT was created to address this, but I think it was a flawed idea from inception.

It seems to me that they should focus on more content that has no cap on content, like PvP or instanced content that has variable change. Just look at content like Battle Grounds or Dungeons. There is an infinite amount of repeatability. They didn't need to build a new game and jam it into ESO to make content. I suppose you could argue that ToT IS PvP content... but if so, that would be an absolute slap in the face to players that have been clamoring for PvP content for years.

VaranisArano

chrisfeng wrote: »

Kilt has been around for quite a while. Plus, I don't see any problem for players to access 5% more dps even if they can't do trials.
Complaining about mythics, which at least give players something to do in old zones, while not complaining about new trials sets, don't seem fair.

You can make a similar criticism about new trials sets, i.e. ZOS keeps introducing power creep with shiny new group-oriented sets, which only exacerbates the gap between floor and ceiling.

And it might be instructive to review what ZOS did to Harpooners Wading Kilt.

At Blackwood launch:
"Harpooner’s Wading Kilt – Medium Legs
1 – Dealing direct damage grants you a stack of Hunter’s Focus for 1 minute, up to 10 stacks max. You can only gain 1 stack of Hunter’s Focus per second. Each stack of Hunter’s Focus increases your Critical Chance by 125 and your Critical Damage by 1%. Taking direct damage removes 5 stacks of Hunter’s Focus and has a 1 second cooldown. Removing Harpooner’s Wading Kilt removes all stacks of Hunter’s Focus."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/575323/pc-mac-patch-notes-v7-0-5-blackwood-update-30

At High Isle Launch:
"Harpooner’s Wading Kilt:
Reduced the duration of the stacks granted from this set to 20 seconds, down from a minute.
Reduced the Critical Chance granted per stack to 110, down from 125.
Developer Comment:
We’re toning down the duration of this set to reinforce the need to stay in the fight and help this set become slightly more contextual than it is now, as it’s overshadowing a lot of other Mythic items in power and use by a significant margin. The reduction in Critical Chance isn’t huge but also helps shorten the gap ever so slightly against other options."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/606776/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-0-5-high-isle-update-34

So while Harpooner's Wading Kilt is still very usable, I'll point out that ZOS made the reasoning behind the nerfs pretty obvious. It was overshadowing other Mythic Items. (And presumably had been for a whole year before they nerfed it.)

Perhaps it's completely coincidental that ZOS finally took action in the same patch that sold the new (and subsequently overused) Mythic Oakensoul.

"The king is dead. Long live the King!"