Magsorc is terrible for PvP (issues & suggestions for Update 36)

Aces-High-82

MetallicMonk wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Did what ? NB still not a threat for DK, Warden or necro. And btw NB's buffs have a cost - losing a target stun that was blockable. Are u ready for streak without stun ?

Nb has massive damage and is a threat to everything.

Also stun being removed from the spammable and playing around off balance lets you control the stun and your burst, it was actually a buff for any good player on nightblade. So like 3 whole nightblades.

That's debatable bc 17sec Offbalnce immunity vs 8sec stun immunity is quite a loss on your enemy's stam and hp sustain if you don't slot another stun - which cost you resources and an additional gcd.

axi

Vey good points mentioned in the videos. I am all for buffing magsorc in PvP BUT only after streak will be balanced aswell. Just buffing magsorc will only cause further issues with already slightly oveperforming stamsorc which completly ubuses strenght of streak. I would start either from creating some heavy drawback on streak or redesigning how the stun works and then start adding more stuff to the class after that because lets be honest cost increase is also and outdated drawback that is easily mitigated these days.

Bergzorn

axi wrote: »

I am all for buffing magsorc in PvP BUT only after streak will be balanced aswell.

Ok, let's touch that one really great skill the class has left and then maaaaybe buff the rest of the toolkit a bit. That is what ZOS is good at as we learned in the past multiple times.

Caribou77

^^ Hard Agree

You don’t want this.

axi

Bergzorn wrote: »

axi wrote: »

I am all for buffing magsorc in PvP BUT only after streak will be balanced aswell.

Ok, let's touch that one really great skill the class has left and then maaaaybe buff the rest of the toolkit a bit. That is what ZOS is good at as we learned in the past multiple times.

Ok let's not touch that one overperforming skill and not maybe but for sure after the buffs we will see new broken meta setups running wild. We also learned that past multiple times. It's basically the reason why we can never get balanced PvP.

Also who said buffs to magsorc needs to be minor? My idea for tuning down the streak is that after this change sorc kit would have way more potential to buffs. Buff it now without touching streak and every decently buffed skill will land in stamsorc menu. Prime time magsorc in this game was when streak was not even stunning as it is right now and somehow sorc was stronger than it is atm. I would say streak for magsorc is in a similar position that cloak is for a magblade. It's holding the class back because due to how strong these skills can be when used properly rest of the kit needs to be kept in check.

MetallicMonk

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

That's debatable bc 17sec Offbalnce immunity vs 8sec stun immunity is quite a loss on your enemy's stam and hp sustain if you don't slot another stun - which cost you resources and an additional gcd.

Sustain is a joke currently with red CP/sustain foods and possibly a mundus. That's why the worst players in the game can hold block infinitely and roll dodge constantly, you aren't draining anyone of resources by stunning them every 8 seconds, if even that because they can still block or roll it.

Being able to effectively control your combos and burst is way better and more reliable, especially in a meta like this where heavy burst is way more successful.

Turtle_Bot

axi wrote: »

Vey good points mentioned in the videos. I am all for buffing magsorc in PvP BUT only after streak will be balanced aswell. Just buffing magsorc will only cause further issues with already slightly oveperforming stamsorc which completly ubuses strenght of streak. I would start either from creating some heavy drawback on streak or redesigning how the stun works and then start adding more stuff to the class after that because lets be honest cost increase is also and outdated drawback that is easily mitigated these days.

Why does streak always have to be nerfed before we are allowed to even start talking about buffing magsorc. Why can we not do both at the same time or let magsorc run around and be op for a single meta then nerf streak like they have done for dk/plar/cro.

btw, I am yet to see them do something to nerf nb invis/shade heal despite giving nbs an insane amount of both offensive and defensive buffs in the last patch including unique damage passives, one of the best burst heals in the game, strong mitigation and sustain abilities, etc, or with how long plars were allowed to run around with so many buffs (see bubble/PotL/PL/beam etc) and strong skills before they finally did something to nerf jabs, so this argument of zos must nerf the broken skill before we buff the other skills just doesn't stand up with how the other classes are treated.

so once again, why must sorc be treated differently to every other class, why must sorc suffer nerfs to the only remaining good skill it has before it is allowed to receive any buffs at all.

Also, the whole stamina v magicka argument falls flat as well when talking about classes. If we want to see stamina become less oppressive, zos needs to buff destro staves to make them into a viable option for the front bar for the modern game. The reason we see stamina always ahead of magicka for weapon choice, especially in PVP, is because the stamina abilities just do so much more and fill up more gaps in the class kits much better than the staff abilities do. Not only that, but the passives also apply their buffs universally to the raw base stats instead of being niche percentage bonuses that are limited to that particular weapon line only and this has only been exacerbated with the hybridisation changes that were made over the past year or so.

A prime example of this is wardens, stamdens will always be the better spec overall compared to their mag counterparts due to access to spin to win and executioner abilities to fill the lack of an execute ability in the warden class kit which is something that just doesn't exist for the staff line.
We can also look at the successful mag classes, plar and dk just have much more complete kits, with strong spammables, a good execute (or burst) and strong defensive options. We are currently seeing this now with magblade, it got a huge amount of buffs in U35, including gaining one of the best spammables in the game with access to both an insane burst ability and solid execute, 2 of the best ultimates in the game and a lot of strong healing and mitigation options. Its class kit doesn't require any specific gaps to be filled so it has the flexibility to run any weapon it wants to and will do just fine which means it gets to keep its mag-based spec instead of being forced to switch to stamina to fill those gaps.

Aces-High-82

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

That's debatable bc 17sec Offbalnce immunity vs 8sec stun immunity is quite a loss on your enemy's stam and hp sustain if you don't slot another stun - which cost you resources and an additional gcd.

Sustain is a joke currently with red CP/sustain foods and possibly a mundus. That's why the worst players in the game can hold block infinitely and roll dodge constantly, you aren't draining anyone of resources by stunning them every 8 seconds, if even that because they can still block or roll it.

Being able to effectively control your combos and burst is way better and more reliable, especially in a meta like this where heavy burst is way more successful.

BGs and Ravenwatch exist.... which both play very different from the Gray Host everyoneisubertankwithdamageprocsets "experience" ^^

MetallicMonk

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

BGs and Ravenwatch exist.... which both play very different from the Gray Host everyoneisubertankwithdamageprocsets "experience" ^^

BG's are literally known for being extremely proc heavy but ok lol. Doesn't really change that resource drain over time is rarely something people are going for, bursting people down or sometimes pressuring in short periods is still the way to go in any facet of PvP atm.

Aces-High-82

Which hasn't been possible before.... I understand.

kapachia

AndreNoir wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

You start buffing a class that has range and insane movement it's going to be difficult to buff it without over buffing it.

ZOS already done that with NB. Just because magsorc can be viable for top 1% is irrelevant. Avg magsorc is not viable among avg DK/warden these days.

Did what ? NB still not a threat for DK, Warden or necro. And btw NB's buffs have a cost - losing a target stun that was blockable. Are u ready for streak without stun ?

Seriously. I play stamblade also. As a stamblade, i can kill DK/warden/necro (except unkillable tank build that takes an entire faction to bring down). I have access to standard dawnbreaker, dizzy, and etc for dps. Access to standard Mara or Rallying set. Instant full heal with vigor, rally, and healthy offering. Stamblade has access to critical build, weapon dam/critical dam set, and etc. At least stamblade (I agree that stamblade still falls behind DK/warden/necro by far) get some update from ZOS. I am definitely not saying nerf NB.

Stun from streak is hardly any anxiety for anyone. It is just annoyance. How often have you been killed by magsorc 1v1? Not counting deaths from XXX v XXX mass battle when fraction of dam was from magsorc.

Magsorc is just stuck in 2019 when ESO has evolved. Magsorc class toolkit forces it to be just max magic stacking build with no dps output and no real defense.

Mr_Stach

kapachia wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

You start buffing a class that has range and insane movement it's going to be difficult to buff it without over buffing it.

ZOS already done that with NB. Just because magsorc can be viable for top 1% is irrelevant. Avg magsorc is not viable among avg DK/warden these days.

Did what ? NB still not a threat for DK, Warden or necro. And btw NB's buffs have a cost - losing a target stun that was blockable. Are u ready for streak without stun ?

Seriously. I play stamblade also. As a stamblade, i can kill DK/warden/necro (except unkillable tank build that takes an entire faction to bring down). I have access to standard dawnbreaker, dizzy, and etc for dps. Access to standard Mara or Rallying set. Instant full heal with vigor, rally, and healthy offering. Stamblade has access to critical build, weapon dam/critical dam set, and etc. At least stamblade (I agree that stamblade still falls behind DK/warden/necro by far) get some update from ZOS. I am definitely not saying nerf NB.

Stun from streak is hardly any anxiety for anyone. It is just annoyance. How often have you been killed by magsorc 1v1? Not counting deaths from XXX v XXX mass battle when fraction of dam was from magsorc.

Magsorc is just stuck in 2019 when ESO has evolved. Magsorc class toolkit forces it to be just max magic stacking build with no dps output and no real defense.

I think you're being a bit generous saying ESO has evolved, but it has somehow Stagnated Past Sorc, it's like it was in the middle of doing something and tripped midstep and Sorc was tying it's shoe and never caught up.

But I'll agree that Sorc needs some help in several areas

PhoenixGrey

AndreNoir wrote: »

kapachia wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

You start buffing a class that has range and insane movement it's going to be difficult to buff it without over buffing it.

ZOS already done that with NB. Just because magsorc can be viable for top 1% is irrelevant. Avg magsorc is not viable among avg DK/warden these days.

Did what ? NB still not a threat for DK, Warden or necro. And btw NB's buffs have a cost - losing a target stun that was blockable. Are u ready for streak without stun ?

axi wrote: »

Vey good points mentioned in the videos. I am all for buffing magsorc in PvP BUT only after streak will be balanced aswell. Just buffing magsorc will only cause further issues with already slightly oveperforming stamsorc which completly ubuses strenght of streak. I would start either from creating some heavy drawback on streak or redesigning how the stun works and then start adding more stuff to the class after that because lets be honest cost increase is also and outdated drawback that is easily mitigated these days.

Streak is just an annoying stun these days. Class is so garbage right now adding / removing stun will make zero difference

Stam sorc is just slightly better than mag sorc atm. It has some of the same problems. An OP stamsorc still severely underperforms most classes.

Sergykid

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

Aces-High-82

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

Yeah, remove cost fatigue and buff it's range to be on par with other gap closers. After that you can implement this ridiculous flanking mechanism.

Luede

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

any class can run around objects for as long as you want without even getting a chance to kill them

kapachia

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

Seriously. How often do you lose 1 v 1 against Magsorc? If you are losing constantly against Magsorc 1 v 1, you need to revisit your build.

PhoenixGrey

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

If frags had a cc still I wouldn't be using Streak at all for stun. For a ranged class losing your positioning for the sake of a stun is not as efficient as you think.

I m not sure why you compare with nightblade as both classes are not even remotely on the same playing field

Nb is already 10x more mobile than sorc
Nb has a single skill which does more damage than whole sorc burst combo
Nb has 10x more defense than sorc.

Turtle_Bot

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

If frags had a cc still I wouldn't be using Streak at all for stun. For a ranged class losing your positioning for the sake of a stun is not as efficient as you think.

I m not sure why you compare with nightblade as both classes are not even remotely on the same playing field

Nb is already 10x more mobile than sorc
Nb has a single skill which does more damage than whole sorc burst combo
Nb has 10x more defense than sorc.

I miss when frags had a stun, also when rune cage stun was only on a 1 second delay, was unavoidable/unblockable and would actually land on people instead of giving them all day to avoid/block/CC immune it.
Streak was basically unused back then. Unfortunately, they nerfed the crap out of (or removed entirely) every single other CC sorc had access to, not to mention the constant nerfs to ball of lightning as well, which forced streak to become a mandatory skill for the class.

rebuff rune cage/defensive rune (make its delay 1 second instead of 3 and make it unblockable/undodgeable like fossilize is and give it a proper sticky dot to work with the class passives) and rebuff ball of lightning to make it dodge all attacks for 1 second after casting instead of a single projectile per cast and you'll see a lot less of streak almost instantly.

Also, it's not just nb that's outperforming magsorc, range plar is heavily outperforming magsorc for a ranged spec in pvp.

While not as directly mobile as sorc or nb, it has much greater staying power (that's healing and mitigation) than sorc and a much more reliable burst combo that also actually deals damage while having the potential to desync enemies due to the knock back included on the ranged, unblockable, fast travelling, instant cast stun that ignores mitigation.

What I would give to have javelin replace rune cage for the sorc class kit.

Aces-High-82

I like the idea if Ball of Lightning would offer the same amount of iFrames as dodgeroll. Ofc it's traveling distance would have to be adjusted drastically in that case.

Sergykid

kapachia wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

Seriously. How often do you lose 1 v 1 against Magsorc? If you are losing constantly against Magsorc 1 v 1, you need to revisit your build.

again people that post things i didn't say. Where i said i lose or fight? i didn't say anything about fighting.

Luede wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

any class can run around objects for as long as you want without even getting a chance to kill them

yes but this was about chasing or catching when target attempts to run towards one of these objects. A magsorc will do it without any kind of counter because you get stunned and while you break free it's already out of reach.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Have you ever tried chasing a streaking Sorc? They're wasting a GCD and a hefty mag cost to move 15m when gap closers are 22m. Most people just give up when they see a Sorc Streak away or they waste time sprinting after them. I understand skills like Streak and Shadowy Disguise have always caused debates about their power, but they have big counters now. You can completely negate both skills by using counters.

The problem is, people don't value gap closers enough so they don't slot them. I personally can't play without 1 despite also using Streak in my builds.. Chasing down Sorcs is very rewarding because they don't have the ability to bounce back without the distance between them and you. If you stay on top of them, most Mag Sorcs crumble.

u don't fight decent sorcs do u
u forgot that streak has an unavoidable stun which is what makes the skill broken

u say easy chase 15m and 22m, but u getting stunned means he does 30m distance and so it's out of ur range
or he streaks near a pillar and while u stunned he's out of sight now so u can't gapclose

any sorc that wants to, can't be caught. Skill is broken.
templar charge has stun too but it's avoidable and single target and requires a target, while streak is unavoidable and aoe and can jump anywhere.

and ur movement speed is useless as he can jump between platforms

So by your definition a decent sorc runs instead of fighting. Which is quite understandable coz that's pretty much the only thing left to do and you want to nerf that as well.

Do you know the best time to burst a sorc is right after the streak when the poor sorc is stuck in its *** animation.

where did i say that? i said that decent sorcs that want to evade you will do it without u being able to do anything, just like nb shade.

didn't say anything about fighting, buff magsorc for all i care except the broken streak skill which needs a nerf.
A good idea i saw somewhere on the forum was the stun to work from flank only, a nerf like this will be enough and fine.

If frags had a cc still I wouldn't be using Streak at all for stun. For a ranged class losing your positioning for the sake of a stun is not as efficient as you think.

I m not sure why you compare with nightblade as both classes are not even remotely on the same playing field

Nb is already 10x more mobile than sorc
Nb has a single skill which does more damage than whole sorc burst combo
Nb has 10x more defense than sorc.

why is such a big trend for people to reply to things i didn't even say?
i was only talking about the ability to reset the fight at will without being able to get countered. This is what i was comparing it with the nb, not heal or damage. Sorc, just as nb shade, can streak out of your targeting range or sight without you being able to do anything. If you attach the stun to frags, that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, it has a counter.

Bergzorn

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Turtle_Bot

Sergykid wrote: »

again people that post things i didn't say. Where i said i lose or fight? i didn't say anything about fighting.

I think it's due to how much you are claiming streak to be a game breaking skill. People are making assumptions based on your comments that streak is such a huge issue for you that you must be losing to magsorcs for it to be that much of an issue.

Sergykid wrote: »

yes but this was about chasing or catching when target attempts to run towards one of these objects. A magsorc will do it without any kind of counter because you get stunned and while you break free it's already out of reach.

Again, if a magsorc is running away, why is this an issue, it means they aren't fighting you, or they're losing the fight and running so they don't die. You don't have to chase down and kill every enemy you see in cyro like it's a trifecta run of a new dungeon, if streak is that much of an issue, then either switch to gap closers (and immo pots) or let them run away and reset yourself for when they try to come back.

If they're doing hit and run, just keep your buffs up, watch for curse and be ready to dodge roll and throw stuns back at them when they get too close trying to stun with streak, it's one of the easiest classes to counter currently with a highly predictable burst and paper-thin defenses.

It honestly cannot be that much of an issue if an average player such as myself can easily break free after getting stunned by streak and still have time to avoid their entire burst combo with my 300+ ping.

Sergykid wrote: »

why is such a big trend for people to reply to things i didn't even say?
i was only talking about the ability to reset the fight at will without being able to get countered. This is what i was comparing it with the nb, not heal or damage. Sorc, just as nb shade, can streak out of your targeting range or sight without you being able to do anything. If you attach the stun to frags, that can be blocked, dodged, reflected, it has a counter.

Every class has a way to reset the fight without being countered, the only difference between the sorc way to do this and every other classes way of doing it, is that every other class is able to do so in front of your face with their strong, reliable burst heals and passive HoTs (yes even nbs can do it too) while sorcs are forced to create that distance first with streak to have a chance to get their heals off reliably.


This is why the debate around nerfing streak is so contentious, nbs got all of their recent buffs (both offensive and defensive) given to them without a single nerf to either shade or invis, both of which are arguably much stronger than streak defensively in the majority of situations (especially shade which also inflicts maim, is a DoT, works both vertically and horizontally and even ignores LoS on top of working over gaps in terrain), so why does sorc need to be treated any different? Why must sorc, which is already struggling and basically a dead class in pvp, have its only remaining strong class skill also be nerfed before the rest of its kit is made playable again?

p.s. the final question isn't specifically aimed at you, but everyone in general who is calling for streak to be nerfed before sorcs are allowed to get any buffs.

EDIT:
p.p.s nobody who plays the class is calling for streak to be buffed, it's the rest of the kit outside of pets and streak that needs to be buffed, the only thing streak needs is for the gap closing bug to finally be fixed so it's usable in prime-time lag conditions.

Turtle_Bot

Bergzorn wrote: »

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Completely agree with this, streak sucks offensively with the repositioning making it horrible to use to try and land a burst combo. I didn't know they made it into a cone, I thought it was still a column, I had wondered why it was even more unreliable than normal lately...... I thought it was just lag issues....

I wouldn't mind the stun being removed from streak if they fixed rune cage/defensive rune to be reliable unblockable stuns and buffed BoL to actually be a real defensive option by allowing it to dodge all incoming attacks for a second or 2 instead of a single projectile attack only.

jaws343

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Completely agree with this, streak sucks offensively with the repositioning making it horrible to use to try and land a burst combo. I didn't know they made it into a cone, I thought it was still a column, I had wondered why it was even more unreliable than normal lately...... I thought it was just lag issues....

I wouldn't mind the stun being removed from streak if they fixed rune cage/defensive rune to be reliable unblockable stuns and buffed BoL to actually be a real defensive option by allowing it to dodge all incoming attacks for a second or 2 instead of a single projectile attack only.

I am fully in favor of reverting rune cage, just remove the damage and make it a true stun. Maybe give it a debuf like breach instead of damage. And then pull the stun from streak and hive it a root instead.

I also think there is another issue with Streak that people tend to overlook. In order to use it efficiently (alongside shields too) you really have to stack mag, which means less damage. If you try to run a spell damage stacking build to get more damage, you are effectively limiting your ability to use streak as you will run dry on mag rather quickly. My own mag sorc build stacks mag and mag rec, and still runs dry when using streak more than a few times. Which is certainly not enough to out run anything with a gap closer or a speed boost.

Not to mention, with streak, even when streaking away, you can still be targeted from range and all incoming attacks before you streaked will hit you during the streak. Dying mid streak is frustrating. Dying right as you land after a streak when all the projectiles catch up and you don't have a chance to do anything is even worse.

Turtle_Bot

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Completely agree with this, streak sucks offensively with the repositioning making it horrible to use to try and land a burst combo. I didn't know they made it into a cone, I thought it was still a column, I had wondered why it was even more unreliable than normal lately...... I thought it was just lag issues....

I wouldn't mind the stun being removed from streak if they fixed rune cage/defensive rune to be reliable unblockable stuns and buffed BoL to actually be a real defensive option by allowing it to dodge all incoming attacks for a second or 2 instead of a single projectile attack only.

I am fully in favor of reverting rune cage, just remove the damage and make it a true stun. Maybe give it a debuf like breach instead of damage. And then pull the stun from streak and hive it a root instead.

I also think there is another issue with Streak that people tend to overlook. In order to use it efficiently (alongside shields too) you really have to stack mag, which means less damage. If you try to run a spell damage stacking build to get more damage, you are effectively limiting your ability to use streak as you will run dry on mag rather quickly. My own mag sorc build stacks mag and mag rec, and still runs dry when using streak more than a few times. Which is certainly not enough to out run anything with a gap closer or a speed boost.

Not to mention, with streak, even when streaking away, you can still be targeted from range and all incoming attacks before you streaked will hit you during the streak. Dying mid streak is frustrating. Dying right as you land after a streak when all the projectiles catch up and you don't have a chance to do anything is even worse.

Agreed with the downsides to streak you mentioned. Only thing I would say is completely buff rune cage instead of trying to balance it (assuming the stun from streak also gets removed).

I'd buff rune cage to make it deal its initial damage up front and then apply a 10-15 second dot with small snare when the stun ends instead of only dealing damage if the stun lasts the full duration. This of course assumes they keep a small (1 second or less) delay on the stun attempt. Then change defensive rune to give you a passive HoT for its duration with a small burst heal if the stun is triggered (similar to living trellis, but self-targeted only and with slightly lower healing values to account for the addition of the attempted stun).
For targeted stuns, other classes have as follows:
Plar has javelin which not only is unblockable, but fast travelling (roughly 1 second or less from cast to hit depending on range), deals decent damage, ignores mitigation (at least ignores armor) and has a knock down/knock back effect meaning it can desync enemies.
dks have fossilize which deals damage whenever the stun ends (not just if it lasts full duration) and also roots the enemy when it ends or it heals for a decent amount when the stun ends (again not just if it lasts the full duration).
Nbs have a stun attached to incap (when cast with higher ultimate) and can medium weave to get an on-demand stun from their spammable. both skills also provide unique and overpowered damage buffs just for slotting them.

So, I don't see why rune cage would need to be a stun only and nothing else, especially if we are going to remove the stun form streak as well.

P.s. the DoT is more of a buff for PvE to give sorcs a more reliable way to proc their blood magic passive which currently goes practically unnoticed with how few damage instances sorcs currently have that can proc it passively, but it will help a little bit in pvp as well.

jaws343

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Completely agree with this, streak sucks offensively with the repositioning making it horrible to use to try and land a burst combo. I didn't know they made it into a cone, I thought it was still a column, I had wondered why it was even more unreliable than normal lately...... I thought it was just lag issues....

I wouldn't mind the stun being removed from streak if they fixed rune cage/defensive rune to be reliable unblockable stuns and buffed BoL to actually be a real defensive option by allowing it to dodge all incoming attacks for a second or 2 instead of a single projectile attack only.

I am fully in favor of reverting rune cage, just remove the damage and make it a true stun. Maybe give it a debuf like breach instead of damage. And then pull the stun from streak and hive it a root instead.

I also think there is another issue with Streak that people tend to overlook. In order to use it efficiently (alongside shields too) you really have to stack mag, which means less damage. If you try to run a spell damage stacking build to get more damage, you are effectively limiting your ability to use streak as you will run dry on mag rather quickly. My own mag sorc build stacks mag and mag rec, and still runs dry when using streak more than a few times. Which is certainly not enough to out run anything with a gap closer or a speed boost.

Not to mention, with streak, even when streaking away, you can still be targeted from range and all incoming attacks before you streaked will hit you during the streak. Dying mid streak is frustrating. Dying right as you land after a streak when all the projectiles catch up and you don't have a chance to do anything is even worse.

Agreed with the downsides to streak you mentioned. Only thing I would say is completely buff rune cage instead of trying to balance it (assuming the stun from streak also gets removed).

I'd buff rune cage to make it deal its initial damage up front and then apply a 10-15 second dot with small snare when the stun ends instead of only dealing damage if the stun lasts the full duration. This of course assumes they keep a small (1 second or less) delay on the stun attempt. Then change defensive rune to give you a passive HoT for its duration with a small burst heal if the stun is triggered (similar to living trellis, but self-targeted only and with slightly lower healing values to account for the addition of the attempted stun).
For targeted stuns, other classes have as follows:
Plar has javelin which not only is unblockable, but fast travelling (roughly 1 second or less from cast to hit depending on range), deals decent damage, ignores mitigation (at least ignores armor) and has a knock down/knock back effect meaning it can desync enemies.
dks have fossilize which deals damage whenever the stun ends (not just if it lasts full duration) and also roots the enemy when it ends or it heals for a decent amount when the stun ends (again not just if it lasts the full duration).
Nbs have a stun attached to incap (when cast with higher ultimate) and can medium weave to get an on-demand stun from their spammable. both skills also provide unique and overpowered damage buffs just for slotting them.

So, I don't see why rune cage would need to be a stun only and nothing else, especially if we are going to remove the stun form streak as well.

P.s. the DoT is more of a buff for PvE to give sorcs a more reliable way to proc their blood magic passive which currently goes practically unnoticed with how few damage instances sorcs currently have that can proc it passively, but it will help a little bit in pvp as well.

Honestly, the only reason I suggested stun only was due to the hysteria around the last time Cage was good, when it did damage and was an unblockable/undodgeable ranged stun. Sorcs need an unblockable/undodgeable ranged stun, and I think it not doing damage but getting a debuff is a good tradeoff. Something like, cast it, it stuns after 2/3 seconds, then puts 10 seconds of breach on the target as well. Breach alone would make up for no extra damage.

Turtle_Bot

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

I really don't get the complaints about the uncounterable stun on Streak. Yes, it sucks to get stunned. Yes, Streak ist strong. Yes, an unblockable AOE stun is (nearly) as strong as it can get. But what you do is - break free and enjoy a few seconds of CC immuity - as you do with any other stun.

Two more points to consider:

- Streak is a great skill, but not as great as some here make it sound. At least if you use it on the offensive and not just for running away. The repositioning often sucks on elevated or uneven terrain as hills, towers, keep walls etc. The area change from a column to a cone made it unreliable due to position desync.

-Take away the stun or add a flanking mechanic or something similar, and what you are left with is an expensive skill for running away from fights. This is not what this game needs. What it needs is a few unblockable stuns.

Completely agree with this, streak sucks offensively with the repositioning making it horrible to use to try and land a burst combo. I didn't know they made it into a cone, I thought it was still a column, I had wondered why it was even more unreliable than normal lately...... I thought it was just lag issues....

I wouldn't mind the stun being removed from streak if they fixed rune cage/defensive rune to be reliable unblockable stuns and buffed BoL to actually be a real defensive option by allowing it to dodge all incoming attacks for a second or 2 instead of a single projectile attack only.

I am fully in favor of reverting rune cage, just remove the damage and make it a true stun. Maybe give it a debuf like breach instead of damage. And then pull the stun from streak and hive it a root instead.

I also think there is another issue with Streak that people tend to overlook. In order to use it efficiently (alongside shields too) you really have to stack mag, which means less damage. If you try to run a spell damage stacking build to get more damage, you are effectively limiting your ability to use streak as you will run dry on mag rather quickly. My own mag sorc build stacks mag and mag rec, and still runs dry when using streak more than a few times. Which is certainly not enough to out run anything with a gap closer or a speed boost.

Not to mention, with streak, even when streaking away, you can still be targeted from range and all incoming attacks before you streaked will hit you during the streak. Dying mid streak is frustrating. Dying right as you land after a streak when all the projectiles catch up and you don't have a chance to do anything is even worse.

Agreed with the downsides to streak you mentioned. Only thing I would say is completely buff rune cage instead of trying to balance it (assuming the stun from streak also gets removed).

I'd buff rune cage to make it deal its initial damage up front and then apply a 10-15 second dot with small snare when the stun ends instead of only dealing damage if the stun lasts the full duration. This of course assumes they keep a small (1 second or less) delay on the stun attempt. Then change defensive rune to give you a passive HoT for its duration with a small burst heal if the stun is triggered (similar to living trellis, but self-targeted only and with slightly lower healing values to account for the addition of the attempted stun).
For targeted stuns, other classes have as follows:
Plar has javelin which not only is unblockable, but fast travelling (roughly 1 second or less from cast to hit depending on range), deals decent damage, ignores mitigation (at least ignores armor) and has a knock down/knock back effect meaning it can desync enemies.
dks have fossilize which deals damage whenever the stun ends (not just if it lasts full duration) and also roots the enemy when it ends or it heals for a decent amount when the stun ends (again not just if it lasts the full duration).
Nbs have a stun attached to incap (when cast with higher ultimate) and can medium weave to get an on-demand stun from their spammable. both skills also provide unique and overpowered damage buffs just for slotting them.

So, I don't see why rune cage would need to be a stun only and nothing else, especially if we are going to remove the stun form streak as well.

P.s. the DoT is more of a buff for PvE to give sorcs a more reliable way to proc their blood magic passive which currently goes practically unnoticed with how few damage instances sorcs currently have that can proc it passively, but it will help a little bit in pvp as well.

Honestly, the only reason I suggested stun only was due to the hysteria around the last time Cage was good, when it did damage and was an unblockable/undodgeable ranged stun. Sorcs need an unblockable/undodgeable ranged stun, and I think it not doing damage but getting a debuff is a good tradeoff. Something like, cast it, it stuns after 2/3 seconds, then puts 10 seconds of breach on the target as well. Breach alone would make up for no extra damage.

I can understand this sentiment. The undeserved "sorc op" hysteria on the forums here is something I've struggled trying to break through as well when trying to bring up any buff for the class. It's something that still lingers from like 2018 era ESO and is something that really needs to be addressed as it's directly affecting players ability to play their class how they want and is one of the main causes of the class becoming the sorry state that it currently is.

I could see no damage being a good trade off, if the stun was an instant cast, instant land, unblockable stun with a bunch of other effects (similar to fossilize or javelin), but if they keep any delay on the stun attempt at all then it should definitely deal damage and have other effects also added (as I mentioned, plar has a much stronger ranged stun that also deals decent damage, ignores armor knocks back/down (causing desyncs) all on an instant cast ability that cannot be blocked and has a super small dodge window of between 0 to 1 second depending on distance the target is.
If they do keep the delay on the stun attempt, it needs to be reduced down to 1 second maximum, core combat (dodge/block/etc) is so much cheaper and infinitely harder to punish currently than it was the last time rune cage was usable, so the 3 second delay is way too long for what would be an attempted stun and breach. The longer delay is especially horrendous for the defensive rune morph which is supposed to help you against attackers but often leaves you dead before it even gets close to attempting the stun on whoever attacked you.

I actually went through the sorcs entire class kit (including passives) in this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621073/sorc-pain-points-and-ideas-on-buffs-changes-and-reworks-to-skills-to-bring-the-class-up-to-par#latest
I went through each skill individually, listing the pain points of each ability and potential fixes, reworks and buffs that could be done to improve/modernize the class (with the exception of pets since they have received so many buffs over the years).

kapachia

I wish ZOS PvP QA/QC team can educate the community how to build and to play MagSorc.

Clearly, they think the MagSorc class is balanced and doesn't need to be adjusted.

The problem is that none of us can figure out how to build and to play MagSorc competitively in PvP with current tool kits.

Help us. Educate us. Or simply update MagSorc class tool kits to be competitive.

AdamLAD

"The problem is that none of us can figure out how to build and to play MagSorc competitively in PvP with current tool kits"

I Play mine just fine. I have adjusted and got numerous builds that do work. Granted its alot more difficult than previous updates. You simply cannot just burst down players anymore. Wearing them down is the only option, when it's supposed to be a burst class. Outdated. Obviously needs additional work.