Magsorc is terrible for PvP (issues & suggestions for Update 36)

MashmalloMan

Dr_Con wrote: »

@MashmalloMan

I think you are underestimating the power of a surprise fury. I don't think it necessary to tell you how to play the game, but I'll just remind you... few abilities in the game don't tell you exactly who a spell came from as it is cast, fury is one of them. In fact you list a bunch of abilities where it's difficult to ascertain the origin unless staring at the caster (haunting/daedric prey, mage's meteor). You mention that someone will dodge roll like a madman- yes I've seen this behavior before, but only because people are directly staring at me and I didn't bother to stun them. You can often catch people off guard with soul trap and entropy as well, though they are just crummy dot examples. Templar beam tells you exactly who the threat is and where it's coming from, any sort of auto attack or ability pretty much does the same. A fury comes from above and will catch anyone offguard.

I always have seen the sorc as a very tactical class, and when I get very brazen, sloppy, or deviate from being tactical is when I start to get bad results.

So we're on the same page then?

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It's best use case is kill stealing in BGs and Ball groups at the back of a pack, most of the time those players are literally spamming it on everyone hoping for it to proc

I guess tactical is another word for it.. but you described exactly how it's best used and why I think it sucks. I'd much rather take a traditional execute or an undodgeable one, I prefer to play in the action, not as a mortar at the back.

Caribou77

After recent changes to Warden, and especially the impacts on MagWarden, I would advise focusing with absolute clarity on one or two things on the MagSorc wishlist, and trying to build consensus around them.

For me, I'd start with Crystal Frags, which are dodged ~80% of the time in PVP.

I'm not asking for more damage, or a stun or anything crazy: I would ask that they simply hit the intended target more often. SO:

1. Make Crystal Frags animation and cast time much faster, so that the class has a spammable that actually works like a spammable.

My MagSorc is my number 2 character (PVP) behind Magden.

I wish the MagSorc community the best of luck...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Pretty sure that just about covers it. Love your videos by the way, they got me to GO on my sorc. I wont touch it now it PVP, it is as trash tier as trash tier can get.

I have said it many times on these forums, but certainly the biggest pain points are:

1. Entire burst combo is effectively neutered by one dodge roll. Make a proc'ed frag and/or fury undodgable.
2. Said Burst combo doesnt pack nearly the punch as it used to. Curse needs a secondary benefit of some sort, and fury and frags need looked at. I would really like for frags to remove the channel (both in PVE and PVP), so its a true spammable. Make the proc hit harder, cost less, and perhaps be undodgable. Adjust proc chance if necessary.
3. Shields are a lousy form of defense, and the problem compounds with the more players you are fighting. Spell crit/damage scaling and some sort of secondary effect on hardened ward are long overdue.
4. Major/minor buff access is very poor. Definitely the worst of the 6 classes on a numbers standpoint, and also probably the worst in terms of ease of access to the buffs they do have. AKA there is simply no room for the skills that give the buffs. This is one of the biggest reasons that sorc just feels like its been left behind.

Edit: Frags is my biggest pain point over all on a sorc, and admittedly, it is more from a PVE perspective. I think a really good solution would be something like this. Make the base skill an insta cast spammable, on par with other spammables. That way you dont have the weird weave timing or bar swapping issues, and you give sorc a much needed bar slot. Let the base skill be dodgeable.

-Have one morph, targeted at PVE, with a high proc chance, that simply hits harder and costs less on the proc. Great for sustained DPS on a target.

-With the other morph, targeted at PVP, keep the increased damage, but lower the proc chance as a tradeoff for being undogable. Add a secondary benefit that suits PVP (major/minor Debuff of some sort typically given by a group in PVE). Great for burst damage on a more intelligent target.

PhoenixGrey

MalcolM24 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

After seeing the PTS patch notes I noticed that magsorc doesn't recieve any changes next patch, so I thought I'd make this post to highlight the many issues with it in PvP. It really has nothing against the other classes anymore, and I feel like it's been ignored for a while now. I'd also like to make some suggestions to improve its situation together with some video examples that I made earlier on YouTube.

So for starters, a quick overview of the issues:
- Shields are weaker than heals from other classes
- Stacking max magicka is weaker than stacking spell damage
- It's supposed to be a bursty class but it has nothing compared to the burst from other classes, including those that focus more on DoTs.
- On top of hitting less hard, magsorc is also easily countered by roll dodge and its "burst" is very predictable

All this is explained more in detail in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm4XcgWQR9o

And an overview of some ideas for solutions:
- Add secondary effects to hardened ward to make it stronger
- Make shields scale of spell damage
- Rework pets to make them usuable in PvP (e.g. by making them untargetable like the Maw of the Infernal change back in the day and/or by making them a temporary summon that requires only 1 skill slot like Necromancer pets)
- Add secondary effects to the offensive toolkit (e.g. add minor or major breach to curse or make curse apply a damage buff to other sorcerer abilities while curse is active)
- Make the offensive toolkit less predictable (e.g. make endless fury hit instantly or undodgeable like before)

All this is explained more in detail in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH0LZ-8r8JY

I hope this may bring some more attention from the devs to the situation of magsorc in PvP.
All right that's it, thanks for reading and have a good day!

This is an awesome video.

Although I think it's best to focus on 2-3 buffs to fix the entire class as It's pretty clear at this point that zos is not willing to invest time and $$ on the details.

Tweaking battlespirit to not affect shields and removing cast time from base version of frags are a good starting point

AdamLAD

I am game for any buffs at this point. For me it's all about having fun with the time and $$ I put into this game.

Sure you can 1vx but the kind of 1vx you get in this class versus others is a bridge which you cannot cross without overbuffing the living hell out of it

[/quote]

Go on my YouTube and you will see the 1vXs I've got. I have the biggest 1vX on my server in the hardest meta to date (Oakensoul) when sorcerer is at its worst its been. In MAINLAND cyrodill, outside midyear mayhem. These are not boasting points these are just putting some personal perspective on the situation as to why I think sorcerer is difficult to balance. It 1000000% needs buffing. However what happens when it gets buffed is that everyone will just flock to it and zerglings will just absolutely abuse streak and huge ranged burst whilst being on the backline of a zerg. Making it impossible to target them to some degree. And when u finally get to them..... streak streak streak like 7 times in a row. Unfortunately we are in a situation where sorcerer is in such a bad state I'd take that and get some buffs lol.

PhoenixGrey

AdamLAD wrote: »

Go on my YouTube and you will see the 1vXs I've got. I have the biggest 1vX on my server in the hardest meta to date (Oakensoul) when sorcerer is at its worst its been. In MAINLAND cyrodill, outside midyear mayhem. These are not boasting points these are just putting some personal perspective on the situation as to why I think sorcerer is difficult to balance. It 1000000% needs buffing. However what happens when it gets buffed is that everyone will just flock to it and zerglings will just absolutely abuse streak and huge ranged burst whilst being on the backline of a zerg. Making it impossible to target them to some degree. And when u finally get to them..... streak streak streak like 7 times in a row. Unfortunately we are in a situation where sorcerer is in such a bad state I'd take that and get some buffs lol.

Why would i have a problem when they are overbuffed when I am simply the better player. I never really saw sorc as a threat in any meta till date tbh.

Also a 1vx doesn't matter if x doesn't really know what they are doing. It seems like you have the wrong idea of what outnumbered gameplay is

MashmalloMan

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Go on my YouTube and you will see the 1vXs I've got. I have the biggest 1vX on my server in the hardest meta to date (Oakensoul) when sorcerer is at its worst its been. In MAINLAND cyrodill, outside midyear mayhem. These are not boasting points these are just putting some personal perspective on the situation as to why I think sorcerer is difficult to balance. It 1000000% needs buffing. However what happens when it gets buffed is that everyone will just flock to it and zerglings will just absolutely abuse streak and huge ranged burst whilst being on the backline of a zerg. Making it impossible to target them to some degree. And when u finally get to them..... streak streak streak like 7 times in a row. Unfortunately we are in a situation where sorcerer is in such a bad state I'd take that and get some buffs lol.

Why would i have a problem when they are overbuffed when I am simply the better player. I never really saw sorc as a threat in any meta till date tbh.

Also a 1vx doesn't matter if x doesn't really know what they are doing. It seems like you have the wrong idea of what outnumbered gameplay is

By definition, 1vX only works because the X is made up of below average players. It's not a very good metric to base anything on. I expect some classes to be better at it simply due to the fact that some defensive kits scale better outnumbered.

Shields for example, do not scale well for 1vX, but the better evasion via Streak, movement speed and a strong ranged kit does for Sorc and it's why they use to be solid. It's just higher risk if you actually get caught, as exemplified in Malcom's video, 1 cast of Streak not firing off when he pressed it meant 1 wasted GCD, being out of position and nuked. Sorc is so squishy that if you can pin them down, they fall pretty quickly. If Sorc isn't suppose to be the ranged delayed burst nuking class, then why are they the squishies with the worst healing? DK and Templars were tank/healing/brute classes, yet they've received improvements to be better well rounded.

To the previous commenter, I don't think Sorc needs gigantic buffs because their base kit is pretty good, it's just fallen behind in comparison to other class improvements the past few years. 1 thing that wouldn't really effect Sorcs in group play is named buffs/debuffs like Major Breach since you can expect someone else to apply it via the numerous options available in combat like that. Major Breach is an easy, high uptime effect.

It's in 1v1 or small scale fights where having very little access to named buffs/debuffs becomes problematic because a Sorcs options are limited. Sure, if you can rely on a team mate to proc Major Breach, Defile, and Vulnerability, you're going to do a lot better.. For a Sorc to setup good burst, they need 3-4 damage skills, none of which include named buffs/debuffs, then they need to choose 2-3 shields or pets, of which, none of them provide named buffs/debuffs. Thats around 6-7 slots eaten up. Now try fitting your Armor skill, Sustain Skill, HoT skill... There is no space for universal skills like Camo Hunter, Razor Caltrops, Crushing Weapon to cover those simple named effects.

So if I were to start anywhere - a few named effects would help a lot.. Second thing would be updating Shields for ESO's 2022 context. Those 2 things would go a long way.

If I went further, update 5-6 year old passives that are way undervalued in comparison to Necro/Wardens from inception and DK/Templar/NB after adjustments through the years, remove magic damage from all damage skills, rework how shields work, rework pets from 2 slots, update pet health for the increased damage we have after CP 2.0, and update Crit Surge for 2023 ESO (it's been roughly 3k healing per second for 6 years).

Turtle_Bot

AdamLAD wrote: »

I am game for any buffs at this point. For me it's all about having fun with the time and $$ I put into this game.

Sure you can 1vx but the kind of 1vx you get in this class versus others is a bridge which you cannot cross without overbuffing the living hell out of it

Go on my YouTube and you will see the 1vXs I've got. I have the biggest 1vX on my server in the hardest meta to date (Oakensoul) when sorcerer is at its worst its been. In MAINLAND cyrodill, outside midyear mayhem. These are not boasting points these are just putting some personal perspective on the situation as to why I think sorcerer is difficult to balance. It 1000000% needs buffing. However what happens when it gets buffed is that everyone will just flock to it and zerglings will just absolutely abuse streak and huge ranged burst whilst being on the backline of a zerg. Making it impossible to target them to some degree. And when u finally get to them..... streak streak streak like 7 times in a row. Unfortunately we are in a situation where sorcerer is in such a bad state I'd take that and get some buffs lol.

[/quote]

I've never really thought sorc was an issue to face personally, outside of bugged/broken sets for example the savage werewolf bowsorc in U34, but tbh that was because savage werewolf was not working as it should be (i.e. a bugged set), which has since been fixed.

All the magsorcs I've faced (both as a magsorc main myself and when playing as other classes) I've been able to either outright kill or simply ignore for the most part, especially as a nb where I get to 100-0 them instantly from stealth and there's nothing they can do about it. I supposed it's because I like gap closers and know how the class works so I am easily able to play around their damage and stay on top of them even as they try to flee with streak.

Also magsorc was not the worst state its ever been in during U34, it was actually decently strong with crystal weapon + force pulse with the set that increased the duration of applied status effects. Sure it wasn't as op as bowsorcs/oakenblades/oakencros/plars, but it was far from bad, let alone unplayable that patch. I was even melting some higher tier players with it including dks. Not even carried by crystal weapon, the pressure in the build actually came from the triple status from force pulse as well as double dot poisons that inflicted the poisoned status effect, crystal weapon was just a strong burst that worked with it, it was the quad dots from the statuses and poisons that crept up on players and melted their health bars. It is in a much worse position now/next patch than it ever was in the oaken meta or the meta before that in U33.

ForumBully

ZOS is clearly committed to pets, so fine, whatever. Other buffs have been mentioned here and many times before but the most glaring issue with that has needed to be addressed forever is that pets don't give enough value for the bar space they require. They need to be single bar, or they need to provide the kinds of buffs (crit/power/resistance) that would otherwise come from slotting another group of abilities.

Melzo

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Not much what I desire:
Reduce Streak fatigue to 25%.
Haunting Curse applies Major Breach for 9sec.
Fury applies Major Vulnerability for 5sec.
Pets are untargetable - at least no cast time.
Dark Exchange and morphs provide a true Value (not affected by Battlespirit) - at least no cast time.
Conjured Ward: not affected by Battlespirit - instead 4k max mag translates to 1k shield strength (Hardened 3.5:1).

Well, yes, the sorcerer and so it is impossible to catch up. The only class that can kill him for burst damage is nb. Everyone else runs after him like fools and can't do anything. Streak needs to be nerfed and buffed in other ways. If you strengthen everything to the side, then you will have a second stam sorcerer from the previous patch with a werewolf set...

The sorcerer has a crystal, a curse, a dagger, a finisher. These skills deal direct damage and are quite high. For two years, this class has neither weakened nor strengthened. It was the other classes getting stronger or weaker while he was quite stable. And all your whining is due to the lack of changes. If you give the sorcerer 50 mana, then the shields are very very strong. And make them even stronger?? Where is stronger? Try to break through his shields when the sorcerer has 50 thousand mana. Mines immobilize and inflict a lot, and streak is just too strong a skill. Gives a stun with through block and evasion and gives too much mobility. By increasing the damage to the sorcerer, you will kill players for 3 buttons, strengthening the shield simply no one can kill you. The maximum that can be done is to change the pets.

Sorcerer's current problem is a meta problem where there is too much armor and too much burst damage. Without burst damage, the sorcerer cannot kill players. As a result, you have to abandon the shield in the direction of spell power and heal at the expense of the staff of restoration and for stamina. put on the appropriate sets for burst damage and you will kill. If you play the old meta that was two years ago, then this is your problem. I also don't like the fact that my necromancer has to fight in close combat. I also want to take a staff and hit from afar, but the class even close does not have such capabilities as a sorcerer. You can both near and far and make a bomber out of him no worse than a necromancer. The number of builds for a sorcerer is a huge number. For 3 years I have seen a bunch of creative players on sorcerers. Due to the fact that this class has the largest attacking potential and at the same time the most mobile. And hybridization unleashed the hands of the sorcerer even more. And you are chasing the meta that was two years ago. Is this a weak sorcerer? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Caribou77

Hmmm... no offense intended, Melzo, but have you played MagSorc in PVP recently, or just played against them?

I think one of the challenges MagSorc faces getting attention to its lackluster state, is that even broken as it is, you can still adopt a TOTAL CHEESE playing style, whereby you scavenge/steal kills by spamming Mages Fury, then Streak away as soon as an opponent engages you. Good players will still lock you down and kill you in 2 or 3 hits, but average players, or newer, aren't sure how to deal with a streaking sorc.

Myself, and I am sure many on this thread, don't enjoy that playing style. It is one-dimensional and parasitic.

We want a variety of viable skills (I think the recommendation of Major Breach on Haunting Curse is really good) so that we can have a dynamic playing style that allows us to engage an opponent for a good while without being melted or streaking away.

Does this make sense to you? I'm genuinely curious if you've actually played MagSorc in PVP much. I think alot of folks who have not jump on the bandwagon of thinking the class is overpowered simply because some CHEESE STYLE FURY SPAMMER racks of a dozen kills in a BG or something. It's very misleading.

ChunkyCat

Mag Sorc is dead.

Hybrid Sorc is thriving.

acastanza_ESO

They clearly have not. Anyone who has any gap closer (longer range than streak) combined with any type of CC (quickly burn through all the Sorc's stam) can run down a Sorcerer.

In order to stack enough magicka to hit 50k and have reasonable shields you have to give up SO MUCH. Three bar slots, any ability to invest in spell damage sets, not to mention need three shields with ridiculously short timers (6 seconds), and one of which (the only healing shield) you can't even guarantee will be applied to yourself. They are absolutely not "very very strong". If you "put on the appropriate sets for burst damage" then you loose your only class defensive ability.

With everyone running swift and celerity, and having a gap closer, Sorcerer's fabled "mobility" is just that; a fable. It isn't real.

People can literally outrun frags. The entire burst combo (which already requires more skills and timing and rng managment than any other class) can be outright negated with a roll dodge or a block. It's a joke.

Overamera

#buffmagsorc

PhoenixGrey

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Mag Sorc is dead.

Hybrid Sorc is thriving.

Lol. It runs fast and that's about it

Turtle_Bot

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

They clearly have not. Anyone who has any gap closer (longer range than streak) combined with any type of CC (quickly burn through all the Sorc's stam) can run down a Sorcerer.

In order to stack enough magicka to hit 50k and have reasonable shields you have to give up SO MUCH. Three bar slots, any ability to invest in spell damage sets, not to mention need three shields with ridiculously short timers (6 seconds), and one of which (the only healing shield) you can't even guarantee will be applied to yourself. They are absolutely not "very very strong". If you "put on the appropriate sets for burst damage" then you loose your only class defensive ability.

With everyone running swift and celerity, and having a gap closer, Sorcerer's fabled "mobility" is just that; a fable. It isn't real.

People can literally outrun frags. The entire burst combo (which already requires more skills and timing and rng managment than any other class) can be outright negated with a roll dodge or a block. It's a joke.

don't forget that to go for that 50k max mag, your max health and resistances also suffer due to needing minimum 5 light armor so to go for that build sorcs max out at about 25k health, which means each shield you cast is capped at 12k and still gets removed by a single spammable which hits even harder because of the lack of resistances due to the afore mentioned minimum 5 light armor pieces.
Unlike heals that are healing for way more than a spammable hits for, especially coupled with the better resistance values from medium/heavy armor and the huge buff to healing through building for raw damage that every other class gets to use.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

They clearly have not. Anyone who has any gap closer (longer range than streak) combined with any type of CC (quickly burn through all the Sorc's stam) can run down a Sorcerer.

In order to stack enough magicka to hit 50k and have reasonable shields you have to give up SO MUCH. Three bar slots, any ability to invest in spell damage sets, not to mention need three shields with ridiculously short timers (6 seconds), and one of which (the only healing shield) you can't even guarantee will be applied to yourself. They are absolutely not "very very strong". If you "put on the appropriate sets for burst damage" then you loose your only class defensive ability.

With everyone running swift and celerity, and having a gap closer, Sorcerer's fabled "mobility" is just that; a fable. It isn't real.

People can literally outrun frags. The entire burst combo (which already requires more skills and timing and rng managment than any other class) can be outright negated with a roll dodge or a block. It's a joke.

don't forget that to go for that 50k max mag, your max health and resistances also suffer due to needing minimum 5 light armor so to go for that build sorcs max out at about 25k health, which means each shield you cast is capped at 12k and still gets removed by a single spammable which hits even harder because of the lack of resistances due to the afore mentioned minimum 5 light armor pieces.
Unlike heals that are healing for way more than a spammable hits for, especially coupled with the better resistance values from medium/heavy armor and the huge buff to healing through building for raw damage that every other class gets to use.

Haven't played in like 2 patches, but it's also my understanding that because a Mag Sorc going that direction needs to run 5 light, Shields and a ton of Magicka (weaker than Spell Damage) they're only actually viable in CP PVP. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but without Heavy Armor and CP to give mitigation, shield strength and damage done, it sounds like it would fall flat very quickly for something like BGs.

Aces-High-82

Melzo wrote: »

Well, yes, the sorcerer and so it is impossible to catch up. The only class that can kill him for burst damage is nb. Everyone else runs after him like fools and can't do anything. Streak needs to be nerfed and buffed in other ways. If you strengthen everything to the side, then you will have a second stam sorcerer from the previous patch with a werewolf set...

The sorcerer has a crystal, a curse, a dagger, a finisher. These skills deal direct damage and are quite high. For two years, this class has neither weakened nor strengthened. It was the other classes getting stronger or weaker while he was quite stable. And all your whining is due to the lack of changes. If you give the sorcerer 50 mana, then the shields are very very strong. And make them even stronger?? Where is stronger? Try to break through his shields when the sorcerer has 50 thousand mana. Mines immobilize and inflict a lot, and streak is just too strong a skill. Gives a stun with through block and evasion and gives too much mobility. By increasing the damage to the sorcerer, you will kill players for 3 buttons, strengthening the shield simply no one can kill you. The maximum that can be done is to change the pets.

Sorcerer's current problem is a meta problem where there is too much armor and too much burst damage. Without burst damage, the sorcerer cannot kill players. As a result, you have to abandon the shield in the direction of spell power and heal at the expense of the staff of restoration and for stamina. put on the appropriate sets for burst damage and you will kill. If you play the old meta that was two years ago, then this is your problem. I also don't like the fact that my necromancer has to fight in close combat. I also want to take a staff and hit from afar, but the class even close does not have such capabilities as a sorcerer. You can both near and far and make a bomber out of him no worse than a necromancer. The number of builds for a sorcerer is a huge number. For 3 years I have seen a bunch of creative players on sorcerers. Due to the fact that this class has the largest attacking potential and at the same time the most mobile. And hybridization unleashed the hands of the sorcerer even more. And you are chasing the meta that was two years ago. Is this a weak sorcerer? [snip]

I have to mention a few things before I reply to your post. I play exclusively on Ravenwatch. I don't run shields bc they are not worth the slots. I have 5k spell damage, 13k pen at 21k resistances. So that's already very glassy imo. I can't recommend Fury at all bc it's cleanseable and offers noting besides it okish tool tip. Let's look at Curse, cleanseable again. Streak is 15m.....whats the range on other gap closers.... and oh, don't see a cost fatigue on them. Cfrags travel time is such fast I can go take a nap till it hits, plus the proc is a worse gamble than a slot machine.. And almost everything you have in your kit is dodgeable. I did not mention all shields if you looked carefully but just Conjured Ward - this should still force you to invest heavily into max mag but make it a reliable alternative to that *** *if someone stares at them they're instadead* 20k HP bird.

[edited to remove quote]

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

They clearly have not. Anyone who has any gap closer (longer range than streak) combined with any type of CC (quickly burn through all the Sorc's stam) can run down a Sorcerer.

In order to stack enough magicka to hit 50k and have reasonable shields you have to give up SO MUCH. Three bar slots, any ability to invest in spell damage sets, not to mention need three shields with ridiculously short timers (6 seconds), and one of which (the only healing shield) you can't even guarantee will be applied to yourself. They are absolutely not "very very strong". If you "put on the appropriate sets for burst damage" then you loose your only class defensive ability.

With everyone running swift and celerity, and having a gap closer, Sorcerer's fabled "mobility" is just that; a fable. It isn't real.

People can literally outrun frags. The entire burst combo (which already requires more skills and timing and rng managment than any other class) can be outright negated with a roll dodge or a block. It's a joke.

don't forget that to go for that 50k max mag, your max health and resistances also suffer due to needing minimum 5 light armor so to go for that build sorcs max out at about 25k health, which means each shield you cast is capped at 12k and still gets removed by a single spammable which hits even harder because of the lack of resistances due to the afore mentioned minimum 5 light armor pieces.
Unlike heals that are healing for way more than a spammable hits for, especially coupled with the better resistance values from medium/heavy armor and the huge buff to healing through building for raw damage that every other class gets to use.

Haven't played in like 2 patches, but it's also my understanding that because a Mag Sorc going that direction needs to run 5 light, Shields and a ton of Magicka (weaker than Spell Damage) they're only actually viable in CP PVP. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but without Heavy Armor and CP to give mitigation, shield strength and damage done, it sounds like it would fall flat very quickly for something like BGs.

yes and no. yes shields are weaker in no cp (ravenwatch), but streak is also much stronger there since there are no movement speed cp (celerity, etc) to allow other classes to easily catch up outside of gap closers and with the reduced mitigation from no cp as well as the increased cost of dodge rolling and blocking due to the lack of cp, the sorc skills actually land more often and also feel like they actually do some damage, however, when it comes to cp campaigns, the mitigation provided by cp and proc sets, not to mention the free movement speed as well as reduced cost of dodge roll/block far outweighs any buffs that cps provide to shields by a very wide margin, especially when the much stronger defensive option of healing is factored in as well.
So the class still performs somewhat decently in no cp due to the issues it faces being offset by the lack of free movement speed as well as much less mitigation both directly and indirectly through less ability to dodge roll as freely as you can in CP pvp.

BG's is a bit different, the class is mixed in that mode. it excels at sitting in the backline and peppering enemies, which works well in low level bgs where people don't really know what they're doing, but the small arenas make it difficult to effectively kite away from enemies for long so in a lot of higher mmr bgs the class will become a liability since enemies will just avoid the burst with dodge rolls and easily either pull you in or chase you down, especially since procs work in bgs allowing for some ridiculous burst and tanking possibilities in that mode.

The class is also not in a great spot due to range plar becoming the top way to play plar this patch and plar does the range dps much more effectively with stronger and better synergizing skills and with a proper defensive kit as well, not to mention beam which has the highest scaling of any execute in the game (+500%) and also seems to front load all of its damage into the initial tick which makes it the far superior skill for putting execution pressure on enemies.

AdamLAD

Buff me

Ryanoxx

I would love to see a change to pets. They are so out of place Necromancers pets have a far better design. Sorcerer pets should be one skill slot, instand spell and be up for a specific amount of time. I think something between 10-20 seconds depending on the effects would be good. The twighlight should be healing over time instead of a burst heal. A burst heal is included in dark exchange and regarding the shielding playstyle a heal over time would make more sense than a burst heal. They definitely must change the way shields scale. There is already a limitation due to the % limitation to prevent too high values so there isn't too much too worry about if they approach it with logic. Hardened ward is the main defensive spell of a sorcerer and isn't more than a slightly better version of the lightarmor shield. It should definitely be looked. A usable stun for console players would also be nice.

On curse I would like to see a bit of creative spirit (even thought that always screams for danger in balance). It's a curse! I would like an effect like "Turns all minor buffs on the target into minor debuffs". This might be too strong regarding that minor resolve would turn into minor breach which would equal a loss of 6000 resistances. For such change the second free hit on curse should be removed. A lighter version would be to surpress or remove minor buffs, which would still be strong but less dangerous for balance. The first version could hardly be countered. The only possibility would be not casting minor buffs which conflicts with vigor as heal or using cleanse. The second version with surpressing minor buffs cannot be countered without cleanse but is less impactful. If it would remove minor debuffs the buffs could just be recasted to counter it. It would require a bit of testing but I think it would be more interesting. A curse isn't a curse if it just deals plain damage.

@MalcolM24 What do you think, is it too much? x)

ChunkyCat

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Mag Sorc is dead.

Hybrid Sorc is thriving.

Lol. It runs fast and that's about it

Melzo

I will repeat it to everyone here. The sorcerer's mana does not exist. There is only a sorcerer. If you are playing in the meta that was two years ago, then this is your problem. Stam sorcerer, if you can call him that, is a meta. I also have to play a necromancer in close combat. I abandoned the staff a long time ago. If you strengthen the sorcerer, he will become extremely strong. You can only change the scaling of the shield and pets. But pets depend on periodic damage scaling. Many general edits to the game broke various builds. Broke heavy attacks. Broke the necromancer and warden with the staff of destruction. If you mix stamina and magic, then the sorcerer is very strong. For example, he takes burst damage from both stamina abilities and magic skills. And his combo through the streak kills anyone. The only problem is the shields. But you can also refuse them. And it is pointless to compare the sorcerer with other classes, especially with the templar, the sorcerer is ahead of any class in ranged combat in terms of damage. No other class has that much ranged damage. If you want the magician to strengthen the sorcerer. Then let's buff the mana of the necromancer and the warden??? Or do you think your sorcerer is at the very bottom in pvp??

And above they wrote that the sorcerer has 25 ka of life. Restoration Staff's shield scales with spell power. As well as a heal for stamina.... You can safely refuse a mana shield to make yourself 33 ka hp and play through spell damage. I have seen more than once strong sorcerers through the shield, so even more sorcerers who abandoned them have 33 health and they are just impossible to kill. Damage not enough for combo...If we strengthen the sorserer, we will have the same sorcerers that are unkillable and have huge damage as when there was a werewolf set ....By the way, they are still very very strong ((((

There are no weak spells, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

acastanza_ESO

Melzo wrote: »

I will repeat it to everyone here. The sorcerer's mana does not exist. There is only a sorcerer. If you are playing in the meta that was two years ago, then this is your problem. Stam sorcerer, if you can call him that, is a meta. I also have to play a necromancer in close combat. I abandoned the staff a long time ago. If you strengthen the sorcerer, he will become extremely strong. You can only change the scaling of the shield and pets. But pets depend on periodic damage scaling. Many general edits to the game broke various builds. Broke heavy attacks. Broke the necromancer and warden with the staff of destruction. If you mix stamina and magic, then the sorcerer is very strong. For example, he takes burst damage from both stamina abilities and magic skills. And his combo through the streak kills anyone. The only problem is the shields. But you can also refuse them. And it is pointless to compare the sorcerer with other classes, especially with the templar, the sorcerer is ahead of any class in ranged combat in terms of damage. No other class has that much ranged damage. If you want the magician to strengthen the sorcerer. Then let's buff the mana of the necromancer and the warden??? Or do you think your sorcerer is at the very bottom in pvp??

And above they wrote that the sorcerer has 25 ka of life. Restoration Staff's shield scales with spell power. As well as a heal for stamina.... You can safely refuse a mana shield to make yourself 33 ka hp and play through spell damage. I have seen more than once strong sorcerers through the shield, so even more sorcerers who abandoned them have 33 health and they are just impossible to kill. Damage not enough for combo...If we strengthen the sorserer, we will have the same sorcerers that are unkillable and have huge damage as when there was a werewolf set ....By the way, they are still very very strong ((((

There are no weak spells, [snip]

Yes sorcerer IS at the very bottom of PVP. This is a fact.
NO, the streak combo doesn't kill anyone in the current meta.
"Pets depend on periodic damage scaling" what are you actually talking about? This is nonsense.
The sorc is NOT "ahead of any class in ranged combat", this is flatly untrue.
This entire comment is... completely disconnected from the actual game.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I will repeat it to everyone here. The sorcerer's mana does not exist. There is only a sorcerer. If you are playing in the meta that was two years ago, then this is your problem. Stam sorcerer, if you can call him that, is a meta. I also have to play a necromancer in close combat. I abandoned the staff a long time ago. If you strengthen the sorcerer, he will become extremely strong. You can only change the scaling of the shield and pets. But pets depend on periodic damage scaling. Many general edits to the game broke various builds. Broke heavy attacks. Broke the necromancer and warden with the staff of destruction. If you mix stamina and magic, then the sorcerer is very strong. For example, he takes burst damage from both stamina abilities and magic skills. And his combo through the streak kills anyone. The only problem is the shields. But you can also refuse them. And it is pointless to compare the sorcerer with other classes, especially with the templar, the sorcerer is ahead of any class in ranged combat in terms of damage. No other class has that much ranged damage. If you want the magician to strengthen the sorcerer. Then let's buff the mana of the necromancer and the warden??? Or do you think your sorcerer is at the very bottom in pvp??

And above they wrote that the sorcerer has 25 ka of life. Restoration Staff's shield scales with spell power. As well as a heal for stamina.... You can safely refuse a mana shield to make yourself 33 ka hp and play through spell damage. I have seen more than once strong sorcerers through the shield, so even more sorcerers who abandoned them have 33 health and they are just impossible to kill. Damage not enough for combo...If we strengthen the sorserer, we will have the same sorcerers that are unkillable and have huge damage as when there was a werewolf set ....By the way, they are still very very strong ((((

There are no weak spells, [snip]

Yes sorcerer IS at the very bottom of PVP. This is a fact.
NO, the streak combo doesn't kill anyone in the current meta.
"Pets depend on periodic damage scaling" what are you actually talking about? This is nonsense.
The sorc is NOT "ahead of any class in ranged combat", this is flatly untrue.
This entire comment is... completely disconnected from the actual game.

Not to mention the talk of restro staff shield being even remotely viable on its own. That shield is trash alone. Great underneath a real shield. That is, if it even lands on you.

[edited to remove quote]

Melzo

I meant that pets deal the same amount of damage as damage over time. For example, the Necromancer Skeleton Mage has been nerfed by 50%, as has his ghost. So that his damage would correspond to the damage from dot damage. If you don't like the shield, you can throw two healing dots on yourself or play through one pet to heal. There are many options. And in terms of damage, there is not a single class corresponding to ranged combat. Namely, in the far not at all, but in the far .... Maybe a necromancer warden or dk cause the same amount of damage in ranged combat ??? You just do see these classes with staff of destruction?? Sorcerers Plaar and NB carry only staffs of destruction. Plar and NB can only kill for combos and only for combos. In general, their damage is two or even three times less than that of a sorcerer. The sorserer has the most consistent ranged damage. If this is not the case, give at least one example of someone who deals damage at a distance greater than the sorcerer. Just don't attach a dk necromancer and a warden.... It just doesn't make sense.

Overamera

Melzo wrote: »

I will repeat it to everyone here. The sorcerer's mana does not exist. ...

BUFF MAGSORC! I dont wanna play no aids bowsorcs that only streaks away and uses light attacks and bow ults. thats for clowns

Melzo

Overamera wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I will repeat it to everyone here. The sorcerer's mana does not exist. ...

BUFF MAGSORC! I dont wanna play no aids bowsorcs that only streaks away and uses light attacks and bow ults. thats for clowns

The gameplay of mana sorcerer is the same as stam sorcerer. -_-

Melzo

You can take a staff instead of a bow. Brilliantly true?

Overamera

[/quote]

The gameplay of mana sorcerer is the same as stam sorcerer. -_- [/quote]


No, because when shields were strong and not useless like now we didnt need to streak away as soon as someone came close to us.