The amount of fake tanks and fake healers is ridiculous

Ragnarok0130

StarOfElyon wrote: »

If people want to be selfish, they shouldn't play an MMORPG.

I cannot overstate the importance of this line right here!

WinterHeart626

This one takes Healer roles for fast queuing yes?
Well, this one also makes sure that he has a healthy offering and an echoing vigour to provide for you.
This one shall also run off and take care of trash mobs, so please, do taunt the boss.

maxjapank

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

madman65

If you have a new toon and it is your first time running a dungeon to get the clear and the skill point, you can report any player that is doing a fake role because they are delaying your progression in the game. I have seen time and time again where a new toon is running with me and they don`t get to complete dungeon. I try as a tank to help them complete but I cannot report the players because i`m fully leveled. If you report players then type ingame /help and use the "blocks progress" reason.

SteamKitten01

I can handle fake roles in random normals but in the past week, I've run into 2 different fake tanks in my random vets. I don't care how good your DPS is, the group is not going to successfully clear Moon Hunter Keep when the "tank" has no taunt and only 19k HP. I can't heal the group through all the damage that would one-shot a squishy non-tank.

MidniteOwl1913

maxjapank wrote: »

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

Yeah while I understand that (I too am a healer in normal dungeons) I don't agree. In my opinion, the other two people deserve to finish the dungeon and not have to wait for a new healer to be assigned. Plus the running ahead thing happens so often I just don't see the point of leaving only for it to happen again.

OBJnoob

madman65 wrote: »

If you have a new toon and it is your first time running a dungeon to get the clear and the skill point, you can report any player that is doing a fake role because they are delaying your progression in the game. I have seen time and time again where a new toon is running with me and they don`t get to complete dungeon. I try as a tank to help them complete but I cannot report the players because i`m fully leveled. If you report players then type ingame /help and use the "blocks progress" reason.

There's too much to say. Too much to say about things that shouldn't need saying. You're absolutely a troll if you're reporting players for that. A petty, hurt, vengeful troll.

Its just a GAME. No punitive action required.

Then again I was playing monopoly yesterday and my wife never lets me be the dog so I think I understand how you feel. Or sometimes she'll be the banker and short me on change. Who makes monopoly... Hasbro? I need to write someone a letter.

WinterHeart626

SteamKitten01 wrote: »

I can handle fake roles in random normals but in the past week, I've run into 2 different fake tanks in my random vets. I don't care how good your DPS is, the group is not going to successfully clear Moon Hunter Keep when the "tank" has no taunt and only 19k HP. I can't heal the group through all the damage that would one-shot a squishy non-tank.

👀 I did moon hunter keep as a DPS (in tank role: edit FC), except I was smart, I took Hexos ward, and a taunt. Took a try to get past “little” miss fuzz ball, but that was the only wipe (I didn’t time my shields right). Not everyone’s a D canoe about faking a role.

AvalonRanger

Fake tank and fake healer keep making solo DPS builders. If people can't stop those playing style,
then pure DPS is most meaningless build in the ESO.

maxjapank

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

Yeah while I understand that (I too am a healer in normal dungeons) I don't agree. In my opinion, the other two people deserve to finish the dungeon and not have to wait for a new healer to be assigned. Plus the running ahead thing happens so often I just don't see the point of leaving only for it to happen again.

When one player runs ahead and jumps on the boss, other players often cannot finish quests, they cannot loot chests or bodies. As much as I feel for the other two players, it is my play time, too. If it's not enjoyable for me, then I'm not going to heal the dungeon. I might feel bad for the other two players. But I am not the one at fault here. But do as you wish.

MidniteOwl1913

maxjapank wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

Yeah while I understand that (I too am a healer in normal dungeons) I don't agree. In my opinion, the other two people deserve to finish the dungeon and not have to wait for a new healer to be assigned. Plus the running ahead thing happens so often I just don't see the point of leaving only for it to happen again.

When one player runs ahead and jumps on the boss, other players often cannot finish quests, they cannot loot chests or bodies. As much as I feel for the other two players, it is my play time, too. If it's not enjoyable for me, then I'm not going to heal the dungeon. I might feel bad for the other two players. But I am not the one at fault here. But do as you wish.

When I started playing I needed so much help and people were so patient with me and did help me that I feel like I really want to pay that forward so I help those two players because I remember being them.

maxjapank

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

Yeah while I understand that (I too am a healer in normal dungeons) I don't agree. In my opinion, the other two people deserve to finish the dungeon and not have to wait for a new healer to be assigned. Plus the running ahead thing happens so often I just don't see the point of leaving only for it to happen again.

When one player runs ahead and jumps on the boss, other players often cannot finish quests, they cannot loot chests or bodies. As much as I feel for the other two players, it is my play time, too. If it's not enjoyable for me, then I'm not going to heal the dungeon. I might feel bad for the other two players. But I am not the one at fault here. But do as you wish.

When I started playing I needed so much help and people were so patient with me and did help me that I feel like I really want to pay that forward so I help those two players because I remember being them.

Then offer to do the dungeon with them at a normal speed where they can finish quests and enjoy it. Tell them to vote kick the speeder, too. I applaud you being patient. But if you don't take a stand against the one who is causing all of the trouble to begin with, then you are compliant.

preevious

Ok, so .. here's my take on all the "fake" roles, based on my own experience with the game.
For clarity, I'm running mostly veteran 4-man dungeon, dlc or not, in PC-EU, as a DPS

FAKE TANKS
They are rare in non-dlc, and almost non-existant in DLC.
They are indeed a bit annoying, since they'll cause everyone's DPS to fall. (indeed, I'll have to kite, dodge and block a lot more when one of those is around).
While some onf the dungeons are possible with them, it's always a miserable experience all around.

FAKE HEALS
They are vastly more frequents than fake tanks, but you can usually manage them a little better.
They are usually spotted at first boss, when I notice my health don't go up.
They are also quite annoying because they'll too cause everyone's DPS to fall. (I know the dungeons enough to know when I can stand in red and keep wasting the boss, being healed through .. also, no buffs/debuffs is also an issue). This is when I'll sigh and slot a self-heal, lowering my DPS even further.
Experience with these is why I tell with perfect confidence that 2DPS+1Heal is far better than 3 DPS.

FAKE DPS
They are a non-issue. I keep trying to improve and thus keep watch on my numbers during a run.
In maybe 1 out of every 10-15 runs will I be paired with another DPS that's too week for the content he's running. (I base my appreciation on the % of the damage I personnaly deal to the boss).
In vDLC, that number drop to almost 0. (I can cite one time or two when I had to carry the other DD in a DLC dungeon, but it's so rare it doesn't even a mention).
I consider myself a very decent DD, able to easily pull my weight in any content, and then, even when I run vFG, the other DD will be a good one most of the time.
I can only conclude that the horror stories of 10k DPS groups are vastly exagerated. Anecdotes, at best.


So, in the end, there is only 2 issues.
Fake tanks : a *** experience, but thankfully rare in veteran content.
Fake heals : a less *** experience, bud sadly frequent enough to annoy me.

peacenote

Harry_Toes wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

As someone who runs dungeons (when I have time) as tank or healer exclusively - absolutely THIS.

To be fair, when I'm running a daily random PUG, I am often slotted into a beginner dungeon with sub level 50 players.

Yep. I almost always run support and often end up doing the most damage as a non fake healer who does damage in between heals.

These threads always frustrate me because in many replies there is a lack of understanding that "play how you want" brings this result. I like play how you want, so I don't complain about this problem. I accept it. Almost any kind of enforcement would cause more problems than it is worth, and I fear that ZOS will do some kind of heavy-handed solution because people have such a high bar for what they should see in a random pug.

It's random. Sometimes I have an awesome group. Sometimes I have a horrible group. Sometimes the group is horrible because someone is faking their role, but sometimes it can be bad even if people are trying to do the roles they selected. It's the luck of the draw and, to me, no different than farming for a certain lead and not getting it for months while others get it on the first try.

Maybe ZOS could embed hidden incentives for the roles. For example if at the end of the dungeon you have done the most healing to others, you get five extra crystals. If you say you're the tank and you successfully taunted each tauntable boss, five extra crystals. If you are a DPS and you pull over 15k, 5 extra crystals. Nothing bad happens if you don't do these things but you get something a little extra if you do.

axxlesoft_ESO

First off, the best solution is the "community" solution. If you do not want to risk running with defectors, then intentionally choose to run with cooperators (e.g. friends, guildies, etc.).

Secondly, I would like to suggest a systems solution to the problem of defection: Reward cooperation and honesty. For the DPS, we reward them for their long wait times by giving them more transmutes; the longer the wait, the more transmutes rewarded. For the Tanks, we reward them (i.e. more transmutes) for having high resistances, appropriate gear, and taunts. And for healers, we reward them for slotting aoe heals; the more heals on the bar, the more transmutes earned.

I am not saying we should stop rewarding defectors. This is a virtual environment and we should be able to test out our bad decisions. Play the game the way you want. But in order to encourage cooperation and honesty, we need to reward the cooperators more richly than we reward the defectors.

Jarl_Ironheart

So I'm gonna add some more to this post. I just got done doing Vet Crypt of Hearts for the daily and I was qued up as a DPS. My tank was a fake tank and my healer was a fake healer. They both continously ran ahead of me and the other DPS and died CONSTANTLY, leaving me and the other DPS to duo every boss and most adds. Not only were they fake tank and healer they were crappy players and awful DPS. This is the kinda crap that I mean when I talk about the fake role stuff. It IS a BIG PROBLEM and ZOS needs to figure it out. Just absolutely ridiculous

Youmee

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

So I'm gonna add some more to this post. I just got done doing Vet Crypt of Hearts for the daily and I was qued up as a DPS. My tank was a fake tank and my healer was a fake healer. They both continously ran ahead of me and the other DPS and died CONSTANTLY, leaving me and the other DPS to duo every boss and most adds. Not only were they fake tank and healer they were crappy players and awful DPS. This is the kinda crap that I mean when I talk about the fake role stuff. It IS a BIG PROBLEM and ZOS needs to figure it out. Just absolutely ridiculous

I agree that, what you described, IS a problem. But I dont think that there are any solutions to it

svendf

Youmee wrote: »

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

So I'm gonna add some more to this post. I just got done doing Vet Crypt of Hearts for the daily and I was qued up as a DPS. My tank was a fake tank and my healer was a fake healer. They both continously ran ahead of me and the other DPS and died CONSTANTLY, leaving me and the other DPS to duo every boss and most adds. Not only were they fake tank and healer they were crappy players and awful DPS. This is the kinda crap that I mean when I talk about the fake role stuff. It IS a BIG PROBLEM and ZOS needs to figure it out. Just absolutely ridiculous

I agree that, what you described, IS a problem. But I dont think that there are any solutions to it

Sure there is a solution to it. Look at other mmo´s, where these kind of player´s can´t take other player´s hostage. They create a hostile game.

I don´t see in the near future a change to that or maybe ever. So people have to make up their minds, about if this is a game for their enjoyment. That doesn´t mean they have to leave and uninstall it. It means do something, where your time is better spend and more healthy for you.

ESO is not my main mmo anymore, because they drow me away, by allow bad attitude run the game. ESO is more a game I visit without any obligations. I still talk to friends in ESO to check if they are ok and fine, their progression and so on. I don´t play it. Im just an account visiting.

Im happy in my new mmo and that´s, what is important to me. I have collected alot in the six years I have been playing and spend money. It just fade away, when you get into another mmo you like and don´t have to deal with attitudes you ran away from.

Thank you.

AvalonRanger

axxlesoft_ESO wrote: »

First off, the best solution is the "community" solution. If you do not want to risk running with defectors, then intentionally choose to run with cooperators (e.g. friends, guildies, etc.).

Secondly, I would like to suggest a systems solution to the problem of defection: Reward cooperation and honesty. For the DPS, we reward them for their long wait times by giving them more transmutes; the longer the wait, the more transmutes rewarded. For the Tanks, we reward them (i.e. more transmutes) for having high resistances, appropriate gear, and taunts. And for healers, we reward them for slotting aoe heals; the more heals on the bar, the more transmutes earned.

I am not saying we should stop rewarding defectors. This is a virtual environment and we should be able to test out our bad decisions. Play the game the way you want. But in order to encourage cooperation and honesty, we need to reward the cooperators more richly than we reward the defectors.

"Secondly, I would like to suggest a systems solution to the problem of defection: "
Agree. ESO is too much becoming chaos as MMO. Need something rule and basis for the
grouping tool which player can't do toxic role cheating.

Currently there're only 2 solution for toxic fake role.

1, Build own real tank character, and queue as real tank.
2, Do it with only believable player.

BlueRaven

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

hrothbern

BlueRaven wrote: »

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

How about a stacking damage of the taunt on a boss ?

Every time you taunt a boss your next taunt after 10 seconds on that same boss will do 50% more damage up to max 4 times for in total 300% damage of your taunt.
Whether solo or contributing in a group, it will be significant.

Whereby I believe that we need besides the three traditional roles a new Free Category where players who want to rush through normal dungeons like mere delves in a jolly chaos can group up and no longer interfere in the trinity concept caused by the trinity choice we have now.

Edit
typo and correction number

Ragnarok0130

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

So I'm gonna add some more to this post. I just got done doing Vet Crypt of Hearts for the daily and I was qued up as a DPS. My tank was a fake tank and my healer was a fake healer. They both continously ran ahead of me and the other DPS and died CONSTANTLY, leaving me and the other DPS to duo every boss and most adds. Not only were they fake tank and healer they were crappy players and awful DPS. This is the kinda crap that I mean when I talk about the fake role stuff. It IS a BIG PROBLEM and ZOS needs to figure it out. Just absolutely ridiculous

I’m a real healer and I did vet CoH yesterday and at the first boss saw I had a fake tank using only a bow (wondering if he was farming and you got him too later). After the boss I asked him what taunt he was using (I already knew the answer -none). He said we have three DPS so I just left. This groups DPS wasn’t strong enough to 3DPS a normal dungeon let alone a vet dungeon with the “tank” running all over Tamriel avoiding the boss making it impossible to heal anyone consistently. Pre-U35 I could have at least spammed radiating regeneration to keep them topped off but it’s been nerfed to the point where it wouldn’t help.

Agenericname

preevious wrote: »

Ok, so .. here's my take on all the "fake" roles, based on my own experience with the game.
For clarity, I'm running mostly veteran 4-man dungeon, dlc or not, in PC-EU, as a DPS

FAKE TANKS
They are rare in non-dlc, and almost non-existant in DLC.
They are indeed a bit annoying, since they'll cause everyone's DPS to fall. (indeed, I'll have to kite, dodge and block a lot more when one of those is around).
While some onf the dungeons are possible with them, it's always a miserable experience all around.

FAKE HEALS
They are vastly more frequents than fake tanks, but you can usually manage them a little better.
They are usually spotted at first boss, when I notice my health don't go up.
They are also quite annoying because they'll too cause everyone's DPS to fall. (I know the dungeons enough to know when I can stand in red and keep wasting the boss, being healed through .. also, no buffs/debuffs is also an issue). This is when I'll sigh and slot a self-heal, lowering my DPS even further.
Experience with these is why I tell with perfect confidence that 2DPS+1Heal is far better than 3 DPS.

FAKE DPS
They are a non-issue. I keep trying to improve and thus keep watch on my numbers during a run.
In maybe 1 out of every 10-15 runs will I be paired with another DPS that's too week for the content he's running. (I base my appreciation on the % of the damage I personnaly deal to the boss).
In vDLC, that number drop to almost 0. (I can cite one time or two when I had to carry the other DD in a DLC dungeon, but it's so rare it doesn't even a mention).
I consider myself a very decent DD, able to easily pull my weight in any content, and then, even when I run vFG, the other DD will be a good one most of the time.
I can only conclude that the horror stories of 10k DPS groups are vastly exagerated. Anecdotes, at best.


So, in the end, there is only 2 issues.
Fake tanks : a *** experience, but thankfully rare in veteran content.
Fake heals : a less *** experience, bud sadly frequent enough to annoy me.

Its a different game on vet. I agree, I rarely see fake roles there. We also mitigate that to a large extent by playing tanks, but even when we dont, theyre pretty rare.

I think the reason why we see so few low DPS there is it takes a certain amount of confidence to queue for a random vet, or the vet DLC pledges. They either know what theyre getting into or theyre completely lost. Ive seen both, but the latter is more rare.

I think most of the horror stories are likely from normal, though I have seen a few that were completely lost in vet. Still, Ill take my chances on vet. There arent enough transmutes or XP to get me into a normal, at least on purpose.

BlueRaven

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

How about a stacking damage of the taunt on a boss ?

Every time you taunt a boss your next taunt after 10 seconds on that same boss will do 50% more damage up to max 4 times for in total 300% damage of your taunt.
Whether solo or contributing in a group, it will be significant.

Whereby I believe that we need besides the three traditional roles a new Free Category where players who want to rush through normal dungeons like mere delves in a jolly chaos can group up and no longer interfere in the trinity concept caused by the trinity choice we have now.

Edit
typo and correction number

First, how does this help healers?

Second, in a delve I have to wait 20 or more seconds before I start doing actual damage to a mob? I can get on a bow character and burn a mob down in 2 shots.

Why play a tank?

kurbbie_s

maxjapank wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I often pug a random normal as a healer. I'm a good healer, too. And though I do enjoy a fast run, I am respectful of the group. But I had to leave two runs today because one player just wouldn't wait for everyone. It was terrible, and I feel bad for bailing on the other two. But I'd rather log onto another one of my healers and get my instant que again.

Yeah while I understand that (I too am a healer in normal dungeons) I don't agree. In my opinion, the other two people deserve to finish the dungeon and not have to wait for a new healer to be assigned. Plus the running ahead thing happens so often I just don't see the point of leaving only for it to happen again.

When one player runs ahead and jumps on the boss, other players often cannot finish quests, they cannot loot chests or bodies. As much as I feel for the other two players, it is my play time, too. If it's not enjoyable for me, then I'm not going to heal the dungeon. I might feel bad for the other two players. But I am not the one at fault here. But do as you wish.

yes you are, if you que as a healer, you need to heal. If youre not youre actively screwing everyone else out of dps and healing which is 100x worse than a fake tank which isnt even an issue in the first place. [Snip].

[Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

kurbbie_s

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

So I'm gonna add some more to this post. I just got done doing Vet Crypt of Hearts for the daily and I was qued up as a DPS. My tank was a fake tank and my healer was a fake healer. They both continously ran ahead of me and the other DPS and died CONSTANTLY, leaving me and the other DPS to duo every boss and most adds. Not only were they fake tank and healer they were crappy players and awful DPS. This is the kinda crap that I mean when I talk about the fake role stuff. It IS a BIG PROBLEM and ZOS needs to figure it out. Just absolutely ridiculous

[Snip]. Learn to make a party. Its really simple. No reason to punish people for hwo they want to play. Or else you should be punished also for not playing the way i want you to play. [Snip]

[Edited for baiting]

PrincessOfThieves

StarOfElyon wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I see fake DD way more often than fake support, in both proportion and total

Totally agree. I see less people complaining about fake DD no idea why

Because it's not a thing, just a silly red herring.

There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously just like there are real tanks and real healers who are not very good at their role.

Being a liar and cheating the system to jump the queue is a whole different issue.

It absolutely is a thing. I queued for vet Dread Cellar the other day, and had a dd just spamming bow light attacks with a skill or two every 10 or so attacks. And they weren't even low cp.

How can someone be called a dd if they're doing less damage than a healer?

See above "There are players who are not as good as others at doing damage obviously." There ARE terrible players in this game.

A fake role in this game is done to gain an advantage in the PUG queue. Fake healers and tanks are a thing because you get a group faster - instantly usually in fact. Queuing as DPS means you have a 10 minute wait on average. Faking DPS to get in a group slower would be brain-dead level stupid.

Faking roles is all about jumping to the front of the queue. This is why I don't buy the pathetic "fake DPS" red herrings many of you think is a good counter argument to rationalize being a lying queue jumper.

I'm not "queue jumping". I'm just saying that people who queue as dds and don't even try to do meaningful dps (at least more than an average healer) aren't really dds, they're just people who are either clueless or looking for a free carry. Dd means damage dealer, not just someone who's not a healer nor a tank.
These people are the reason why healers and tanks try to avoid solo queues. It is just not fun to play when you get 2 of those.
And I find it really weird that dds are almost never judged the way support players are.

I've tanked for groups where literally everyone was dying repeatedly and doing dookie damage. When we got on party, I actually learned that one of the DDs was an older woman (sounded old enough to be my mom). I'm patient as hell so I stuck with them and we eventually cleared that vet dungeon. It's not fun sometimes but in order for people to advance in this game, the more experienced players must be willing to carry groups and teach others. If people want to be selfish, they shouldn't play an MMORPG.

It's not always feasible. I teach dungeon mechanics when possible, but if their whole build/playstyle needs an overhaul, there's nothing I can do. I would rather spend the evening with my family than with some dude who thinks that spamming light attacks in vet dungeons is the way to go.
It is completely unreasonable to expect people to be perfect from the get-go, but it's just as unreasonable to expect a full carry from randoms. No one is entitled to other people's free time.

hrothbern

BlueRaven wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

How about a stacking damage of the taunt on a boss ?

Every time you taunt a boss your next taunt after 10 seconds on that same boss will do 50% more damage up to max 4 times for in total 300% damage of your taunt.
Whether solo or contributing in a group, it will be significant.

Whereby I believe that we need besides the three traditional roles a new Free Category where players who want to rush through normal dungeons like mere delves in a jolly chaos can group up and no longer interfere in the trinity concept caused by the trinity choice we have now.

Edit
typo and correction number

First, how does this help healers?

Second, in a delve I have to wait 20 or more seconds before I start doing actual damage to a mob? I can get on a bow character and burn a mob down in 2 shots.

Why play a tank?

I your post I react upon you say every time "tank and healer" and I adress what can be done to make a tank more usefull in a trinity role.

Players/builds strong enough to rush through normal dungeons who don't want to be hindered by that tank role can join up in the free category. And indeed for those: "why play a tank?"

But for those who just enjoy the tank role and for those who want to learn to tank in normal to use that later in veteran. it offers some more DPS for the trinity group, helping to cut some time to make that choice more rewarding.

For healers something similar is certainly possible, but that is detail.

Key is that players who do want to play with clear roles used in heavy content have more chance to find similar minded players in the Group Finder.

BlueRaven

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

How about a stacking damage of the taunt on a boss ?

Every time you taunt a boss your next taunt after 10 seconds on that same boss will do 50% more damage up to max 4 times for in total 300% damage of your taunt.
Whether solo or contributing in a group, it will be significant.

Whereby I believe that we need besides the three traditional roles a new Free Category where players who want to rush through normal dungeons like mere delves in a jolly chaos can group up and no longer interfere in the trinity concept caused by the trinity choice we have now.

Edit
typo and correction number

First, how does this help healers?

Second, in a delve I have to wait 20 or more seconds before I start doing actual damage to a mob? I can get on a bow character and burn a mob down in 2 shots.

Why play a tank?

I your post I react upon you say every time "tank and healer" and I adress what can be done to make a tank more usefull in a trinity role.

Players/builds strong enough to rush through normal dungeons who don't want to be hindered by that tank role can join up in the free category. And indeed for those: "why play a tank?"

But for those who just enjoy the tank role and for those who want to learn to tank in normal to use that later in veteran. it offers some more DPS for the trinity group, helping to cut some time to make that choice more rewarding.

For healers something similar is certainly possible, but that is detail.

Key is that players who do want to play with clear roles used in heavy content have more chance to find similar minded players in the Group Finder.

Tanks and healers need to be fun to play when NOT in a group.

They need to be able to do dailies, endeavors, and the like, without much of a hassle. (And carrying around a second set of gear to do that is a hassle, when compared to dd's that don't have to do that.)

It's not just "Be fun in dungeons", it's be fun "All the time".

DD's are fun all the time. Healers and Tanks are not.

Soarora

BlueRaven wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

As far as I am concerned this is exactly what the community (I.e. the forums) wanted to happen.

There were so many complaints on these forums when tank and healer damage output was nerfed.

“Tanks and healers need to quest, get skyshards, do dailies…”

And the forums replied with;

“They do too much damage in pvp.”
“Just put some leather on with a two hander.”
“You don’t need to do damage with a support role.”
Etc.

And the reply was;
“If I can do ALL of the content as a dd, but only some of the content as a tank/healer, why not just stay a dd? You are going to crater the tank/healer population.”

Well they nerfed tanks and healers, so they mostly switched to dd. (If they kept playing…) Just as predicted. So congrats! The community got what they wanted.

Want more tanks and healers? Make the rolls fun to play!
Yes! Let them do damage! Make it so they can actually do stuff on their own. Because if they can’t, why make one?

How about a stacking damage of the taunt on a boss ?

Every time you taunt a boss your next taunt after 10 seconds on that same boss will do 50% more damage up to max 4 times for in total 300% damage of your taunt.
Whether solo or contributing in a group, it will be significant.

Whereby I believe that we need besides the three traditional roles a new Free Category where players who want to rush through normal dungeons like mere delves in a jolly chaos can group up and no longer interfere in the trinity concept caused by the trinity choice we have now.

Edit
typo and correction number

First, how does this help healers?

Second, in a delve I have to wait 20 or more seconds before I start doing actual damage to a mob? I can get on a bow character and burn a mob down in 2 shots.

Why play a tank?

I your post I react upon you say every time "tank and healer" and I adress what can be done to make a tank more usefull in a trinity role.

Players/builds strong enough to rush through normal dungeons who don't want to be hindered by that tank role can join up in the free category. And indeed for those: "why play a tank?"

But for those who just enjoy the tank role and for those who want to learn to tank in normal to use that later in veteran. it offers some more DPS for the trinity group, helping to cut some time to make that choice more rewarding.

For healers something similar is certainly possible, but that is detail.

Key is that players who do want to play with clear roles used in heavy content have more chance to find similar minded players in the Group Finder.

Tanks and healers need to be fun to play when NOT in a group.

They need to be able to do dailies, endeavors, and the like, without much of a hassle. (And carrying around a second set of gear to do that is a hassle, when compared to dd's that don't have to do that.)

It's not just "Be fun in dungeons", it's be fun "All the time".

DD's are fun all the time. Healers and Tanks are not.

You don’t need to completely change gear to do overland. Just change skills, get a companion, do the overland on a dps, find people to group with… there’s plenty of options here. Additionally, having lower dps actually lets you see overland mechanics so in a way doing overland as a healer or tank can be fun.