If nothing else, please rethink the visual change to Jabs

merpins

Title. ZoS, the new Jabs animation doesn't look good. It's not about people disliking change, but reusing assets and having an objectively worse animation for a skill people love is not the way to go. If you want to do a visual upgrade, fine, but it should be an upgrade. This is a downgrade. If you need to nerf the skill, don't reduce the number of hits, just reduce the damage. If you need to make it .8 second cast time, don't make a new animation, just speed up the old one. Why remove one of the most beloved skills from the game? I know the new one is similar, but it's not the same.

Animator's Perspective on the new visual change for Puncturing Strikes and its morphs:

The old animation was better, objectively. Exaggeration, anticipation, follow through, arcs, slow in and slow out... It used the principles of animation in a much better way than the new animation. See, the principles exist because without them, animation looks bad. A cartoon doesn't look like reality if you rotoscope exactly, it looks more alive if you exaggerate movements, squash and stretch beyond what a normal human can, etc. Movies look real because they can use camera tricks to make things that you cannot do, like punch someone in the face for a shot, look real. Animation looks good when the principles of animation in the same way.

Watch the new animation closely. The first two attacks are exactly the same with no variation in timing. There's no slow in or slow out, anticipation, squash or stretch, or exaggeration. It's just a straight forward animation, frame by frame. It feels stiff, like a robot is moving. The last jab is also slow. It pulls back at the same speed that it stabs, which does not look like a stab.

Here's the fix; first, a variation in the first two strikes, which wouldn't be perfect stabs but have little arcs that the tip of the spear moves in to make it look alive and like an actual warrior is wielding the spear. The arms wouldn't move in perfect repetition. There would be a slight pause at the end of the pull back animation for the first two strikes, and the stab itself would launch forward faster. The body would also move back with the pull back, and arch forward when attacking. Not as much as the final attack, but the body would move a bit unlike the current animation. The second stab would not pull back as far as the first. They're two quick jabs, and pulling back that far both makes the timing of the animation slower, but also makes it look weird. The final attack would pull back similar to how it does, but the launch forward would be faster, and the spear would reach further. It would go in a straight line this time to contrast the arcs from the first two hits, as the arms themselves would be moving in arcs. The character would let go of the spear with their left hand towards the end of the animation to allow them to lunge forward even more than before, which would also give it a better explosive feeling.

Stx

Last ditch effort. Please ZoS. I won't be playing templar if this change goes live. Templar has been my main class for a very long time. I stuck with it even through the butchering of empowering sweep and ritual of ret losing its healing, and even when you removed stamplar from the game with the hybridization changes. But this... I can't. This new animation is that bad. Can't do it.

MashmalloMan

It's too late at this point, whatever they do in the next 2 weeks is almost always minor bug fixes as a foot note at the bottom of the live patch. See you on U36 PTS - this patch is a wash..

Mr_Stach

I wouldn't say if nothing else.

This ENTIRE PATCH is a wash



In the current iteration, Weaving is more powerful than ever due to Empower and Medium Weaving. Rotations are less accessible than ever with the outrageous differences to buff and DoT timers. The Class Changes across the board are baffling.

The patch needs to be thrown out. People are leaving if they already haven't. I don't know what their current vision of U35 is but the current changes are even worse than the initial iteration of U35.

merpins

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I wouldn't say if nothing else.

This ENTIRE PATCH is a wash

In the current iteration, Weaving is more powerful than ever due to Empower and Medium Weaving. Rotations are less accessible than ever with the outrageous differences to buff and DoT timers. The Class Changes across the board are baffling.

The patch needs to be thrown out. People are leaving if they already haven't. I don't know what their current vision of U35 is but the current changes are even worse than the initial iteration of U35.

Oh no I agree entirely. But if they didn't change Jabs, I'd personally suck it up. Been maining Templar since beta. I used to play maplestory and still do from time to time, and a big part of that game is how a skill FEELS to use, and how it looks. If the skills don't feel good, I won't use that class. It's why I don't play Necromancer or DK, and why I don't use Crystal Weapons or Cliff Racer. I just don't like how those two classes feel to play, and CW and Cliff Racer don't feel good to use. The new jabs just doesn't feel good to use, and as an animator, I can't excuse bad animation on a class spammable.

I'd prefer bigger changes, if not a revision of the whole patch. But I would settle with just the class I've played for so long to not lose the one skill that kept me playing it for so long. So many other changes I'd like to see, but this one skill change is the dealbreaker to me over anything else.

Ariordin

Please Zos. Don't murder Jabs.... Bring back the old animation.

shadyjane62

Jabs is our Identity. Nuff said.

Pyvos

I voted Other.

Why?

Because bartering should not be in our vocabulary. We should not accept them doing 99 bad things and be like "well ladies and gents, at least we got this 1 good thing they didn't screw up".

The other 99 things need to be scrapped too.

merpins

Pyvos wrote: »

I voted Other.

Why?

Because bartering should not be in our vocabulary. We should not accept them doing 99 bad things and be like "well ladies and gents, at least we got this 1 good thing they didn't screw up".

The other 99 things need to be scrapped too.

Oh no I agree with ya. But getting a superior in the workplace to admit their mistake is nigh impossible. They'll deflect, stick to their guns, and do what they set out to do even if they know it's a mistake because they won't admit to it being a mistake. Easier to barter.

colossalvoids

At the very least they shouldn't change it from live until they have actual animators at work for it, I sincerely don't believe that they've put more than couple of hours in it without any idea, passion or even testing in-engine, probably were given vague direction and "quick - quick" motd.

Both rapids and jabs need attention as they're literal spammables people using the most out of their rotations, they should look good and be fluid, people shouldn't be wiling to swap from them with the change.

Veesk

Agreed. I hope they scrap the jab/sweeps animation change and restore the 4th hit. Nerfing the skill is livable but the other changes really hurt Templar class identity and the overall enjoyability of the class.

xHotguy6pack

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

It feels like our opinion doesn’t matter. Temple has been consistently *** upon no matter what we explain to the devs. This patch is nonsense.

Or a dev can give there two cents on the patch goals. I mean the temp spam skill gets gutted while we find a reasonable explanation for giving nb an absolute crit they can combo.

@Gilliamtherogue you played this game as a player. I’ve healed you way back in the day. Please explain, in a fair case way- and you know what I mean- to day 1 players the changes. Be honest don’t hold back. Truth will truth anything at this point man. Just give a modicum of honesty. I just feel if you knew your class was about to be pigeonholed you would act. Please recognize that for Templars.

Also @Gilliamtherogue you have my heals whenever you enter Cyro. Dc side of course 😉 just really think about those changes you know you have a gold mine in PvP! We almost pop locked all campaigns just through a whisper campaign for how well that server upgrade went on Pc/NA.

Veesk

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

That might be your experience but it's definitely not everyone's. I've been a Templar main for 6 years and play both PvE and PvP. I don't have issues facing Templars using jabs. You just have to roll through the player jabbing or away, it's easy to get out of it. Movement is always an easy counter to jabs.

Ardriel

Maybe someone should organise a protest march. Hundreds of Templars marching in a long line through the capitals while jabbing all the time

merpins

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

Every time I face a templar in PVP for the last 3 years or so, jabs has hit like a sack feathers. I don't play super tanky builds either. But it's not about the viability of the skill; they can nerf the skill for all I care. Keep it dealing exactly the same amount of damage it is now in the PTS. Sure I think the nerf from a numbers perspective is about 10-15% too harsh to make the skill useable from a competitive DPS standpoint, but I'm not asking for the nerf to be reverted. My main complaint comes from the animation change. I've outlined the problems with the skill in my initial post, under the spoiler. As an animator, I cannot condone lazy animation like this. I don't mind a visual upgrade, but it's not that. Nerf the skill; balance changes come and go. It's had its day in the sun. But changing the skill like this to a new animation that's worse than the original just makes it unplayable for me.

merpins

Ardriel wrote: »

Maybe someone should organise a protest march. Hundreds of Templars marching in a long line through the capitals while jabbing all the time

All holding pool noodles with Deltia helming the march. Totally. lol.

Trags

Looks aweful and garder to weave because it is so slow.!!

merpins

Trags wrote: »

Looks aweful and garder to weave because it is so slow.!!

I don't think the new version is harder to weave. It basically has the same timing for weaving as any other .8 second animation skill now. It just looks and feels awful to use. It could be the biggest buff to the skill imaginable, making it deal 100k dps from just using the skill with no sets or CP equipped and I'd STILL want it reverted, buffs be damned. How a skill looks and how it feels to use are more than half the enjoyment of using skills in this game, and the new version looks bad and feels bad to use.

James-Wayne

Been playing Templar with jabs as my spammable everyday since launch day in 2014 and it's definitely fundamentally flawed now.

So very sad it's come to this, how can ZOS be so out of touch with a class I will never know.

shadyjane62

merpins wrote: »

Pyvos wrote: »

I voted Other.

Why?

Because bartering should not be in our vocabulary. We should not accept them doing 99 bad things and be like "well ladies and gents, at least we got this 1 good thing they didn't screw up".

The other 99 things need to be scrapped too.

Oh no I agree with ya. But getting a superior in the workplace to admit their mistake is nigh impossible. They'll deflect, stick to their guns, and do what they set out to do even if they know it's a mistake because they won't admit to it being a mistake. Easier to barter.

They not only refuse to admit their mistake, they double down on ruining the game.

Stx

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

PDarkBHood

Actually, I like the new jabs from the first-person perspective. 3rd-person perspective is just ok, I rarely use 3rd-person.

Iriidius

Stx wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

Jabs is hard to play against, often a single jabs can do 10k dmg+burning light+power of the light. Jabs cant be dodged, deals 10% more dmg against block and eats 4x stamina for blocking, 4x dmg vs corrosive, snares you so easy counter of just running out gets slower and harder and aiming it again every cast, so if you were almost out, you are in the middle of jabs again. And even if you can LoS multiple jabs they will just stun you or spam it until they hit you, then crescent sweep, power of the light and/or beam and you are dead. Maybe a bad templar is easy to play against, but a good templar is extremely hard to counter, probably the class with the least counterplay.
But it is stupid how they change the animation and nerf the dmg only to homogenizise the class and templars light attack weave when the goal was to make light attack weave less inportant. They should rather revert recent changes than nerf skills not changed for years.
Better revert PotL buff than make jabs useless, because it is the core of templar class and can be overperforming if the rest of the class isnt.

Arjuna1696

Just chiming in as another player that won't play their templars if the jabs animation changes goes to live. It's literally the reason I made those characters.

ZOS_Suserial

Greetings, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

Billium813

Personally, I like the PTS spear model for Jabs. At least it looks like a spear now and not just a yellow skewer. However, I think the spear size is too large (too thick and too long). Combined with the change to a quicker duration, the animation feels ridged and wonky looking. It might seem minor, but if the spear was thinner and a bit shorter, I think it would help with the animation. NOTE: I did run this on a small character (all sliders to small stature), so it might just be me feeling like the spear looks like a telephone pole!

Apart from the animation, I really don't like the new changes to duration and number of spear strikes. I'm finding it really hard to learn weaving again, especially MA weaving that I had fine grained into my muscle memory. For a spamable like Jabs that's been that way for so long, don't underestimate backlash on changes to the actual skill motion itself. Changes to damage may be felt relatively minor compared to the FEEL of a skill like Jabs.

WrathOfInnos

The new timing is much better, especially for weaving. The old animation would bleed over into the next skill cast and hide the visual cue that the GCD was over.

The new animation isn't perfect, using a random staff motif, and the damage is a little low, but it feels smoother now.

Billium813

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The new timing is much better, especially for weaving. The old animation would bleed over into the next skill cast and hide the visual cue that the GCD was over.

The new animation isn't perfect, using a random staff motif, and the damage is a little low, but it feels smoother now.

Interesting, because I feel like the exact opposite. On Live, I get a quick flash of the MA animation before Jabs to let me know I did it correctly. Perhaps LA is different and I never mastered that, but for MA I have like 95% hit rate with Jabs on Live. On PTS, I just can't seem to get it to work.

LM hold, Jabs > LM release > LM hold, repeat

xthrshx

The new jab animation and the brutal nerfs to the skill are the main reasons I canceled my ESO+ subscription.

Cast_El

As if 33% nerf burning light was not enough