If nothing else, please rethink the visual change to Jabs

merpins

Billium813 wrote: »

Personally, I like the PTS spear model for Jabs. At least it looks like a spear now and not just a yellow skewer. However, I think the spear size is too large (too thick and too long). Combined with the change to a quicker duration, the animation feels ridged and wonky looking. It might seem minor, but if the spear was thinner and a bit shorter, I think it would help with the animation. NOTE: I did run this on a small character (all sliders to small stature), so it might just be me feeling like the spear looks like a telephone pole!

Apart from the animation, I really don't like the new changes to duration and number of spear strikes. I'm finding it really hard to learn weaving again, especially MA weaving that I had fine grained into my muscle memory. For a spamable like Jabs that's been that way for so long, don't underestimate backlash on changes to the actual skill motion itself. Changes to damage may be felt relatively minor compared to the FEEL of a skill like Jabs.

Well they can't make the spear thinner or shorter because it's a reused asset. It's the Nighthollow motif staff that they've turned down the opacity on and added a golden texture to. They didn't even make a unique spear, and though I do personally like that staff (I use it on my templar because it looks like a spear and have for a long while), ZoS should not be reusing assets like that for a main spammable.
That's why I say it needs a complete rework, all the way down to the 3D models they use for the animation.

NBlade

same goes for flurry

danno8

Billium813 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The new timing is much better, especially for weaving. The old animation would bleed over into the next skill cast and hide the visual cue that the GCD was over.

The new animation isn't perfect, using a random staff motif, and the damage is a little low, but it feels smoother now.

Interesting, because I feel like the exact opposite. On Live, I get a quick flash of the MA animation before Jabs to let me know I did it correctly. Perhaps LA is different and I never mastered that, but for MA I have like 95% hit rate with Jabs on Live. On PTS, I just can't seem to get it to work.

LM hold, Jabs > LM release > LM hold, repeat

I haven't tried the MA weaving yet, but with LA weaving on Live compared to PTS I can get 23 Puncturing Strikes (with 22 LA's) on Live and 29 Puncturing Strikes (with 27 LA's) on PTS in 32 seconds exactly.

So there is a definite advantage of around 20% more PS in the same time frame when Light Attack weaving. I can see why they dropped the damage. Having that .2s between the skill ending and the GCD ending makes a big difference for weaving.

danno8

merpins wrote: »

Title. ZoS, the new Jabs animation doesn't look good. It's not about people disliking change, but reusing assets and having an objectively worse animation for a skill people love is not the way to go. If you want to do a visual upgrade, fine, but it should be an upgrade. This is a downgrade. If you need to nerf the skill, don't reduce the number of hits, just reduce the damage. If you need to make it .8 second cast time, don't make a new animation, just speed up the old one. Why remove one of the most beloved skills from the game? I know the new one is similar, but it's not the same.

Animator's Perspective on the new visual change for Puncturing Strikes and its morphs:

The old animation was better, objectively. Exaggeration, anticipation, follow through, arcs, slow in and slow out... It used the principles of animation in a much better way than the new animation. See, the principles exist because without them, animation looks bad. A cartoon doesn't look like reality if you rotoscope exactly, it looks more alive if you exaggerate movements, squash and stretch beyond what a normal human can, etc. Movies look real because they can use camera tricks to make things that you cannot do, like punch someone in the face for a shot, look real. Animation looks good when the principles of animation in the same way.

Watch the new animation closely. The first two attacks are exactly the same with no variation in timing. There's no slow in or slow out, anticipation, squash or stretch, or exaggeration. It's just a straight forward animation, frame by frame. It feels stiff, like a robot is moving. The last jab is also slow. It pulls back at the same speed that it stabs, which does not look like a stab.

Here's the fix; first, a variation in the first two strikes, which wouldn't be perfect stabs but have little arcs that the tip of the spear moves in to make it look alive and like an actual warrior is wielding the spear. The arms wouldn't move in perfect repetition. There would be a slight pause at the end of the pull back animation for the first two strikes, and the stab itself would launch forward faster. The body would also move back with the pull back, and arch forward when attacking. Not as much as the final attack, but the body would move a bit unlike the current animation. The second stab would not pull back as far as the first. They're two quick jabs, and pulling back that far both makes the timing of the animation slower, but also makes it look weird. The final attack would pull back similar to how it does, but the launch forward would be faster, and the spear would reach further. It would go in a straight line this time to contrast the arcs from the first two hits, as the arms themselves would be moving in arcs. The character would let go of the spear with their left hand towards the end of the animation to allow them to lunge forward even more than before, which would also give it a better explosive feeling.

I voted other because I think your description of a good animation for jabs sounds really good and I would like what you described as a change instead.

For me the biggest offender is the single frame where the spear points awkwardly off to the side right before the final stab, and the fact that the spear should glow a bit brighter like the original. I don't mind the new spear model, even if it is technically a reused asset, but it just seems a bit dark to me.

FlamingBeard

Iriidius wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

Jabs is hard to play against, often a single jabs can do 10k dmg+burning light+power of the light. Jabs cant be dodged, deals 10% more dmg against block and eats 4x stamina for blocking, 4x dmg vs corrosive, snares you so easy counter of just running out gets slower and harder and aiming it again every cast, so if you were almost out, you are in the middle of jabs again. And even if you can LoS multiple jabs they will just stun you or spam it until they hit you, then crescent sweep, power of the light and/or beam and you are dead. Maybe a bad templar is easy to play against, but a good templar is extremely hard to counter, probably the class with the least counterplay.
But it is stupid how they change the animation and nerf the dmg only to homogenizise the class and templars light attack weave when the goal was to make light attack weave less inportant. They should rather revert recent changes than nerf skills not changed for years.
Better revert PotL buff than make jabs useless, because it is the core of templar class and can be overperforming if the rest of the class isnt.

Jabs/Sweeps is literally the only spammable that is directly countered by Major Evasion, one of the most readily accesible defensive buffs (since it's available from medium armor). And some classes have it as part of their innate buffs (Nightblade, Warden).

No counterplay? Templar is a low-mobility class with no AoE CC so in exchange it was given high healing and 'bursty' pressure damage from Burning Light with good resource sustain to be able to facetank.

Templar without Jabs being good enough is forced to go ranged in PvP but other classes are much better at doing that, so it feels like there's no point in trying to make it work on Templar.

Mrtoobyy

Templar main since beta here.
I've said it in different threads and I will say it here as well. I am one of those liking the new changes. I've been waiting YEARS for ZOS to change animations of this game. Some are so bad... Many of them were better at launch, things were a tad slower and had more fluid movement/weight to them.

Look at staff animations in the early years, they looked so cool. Look at light attack with staves today, it's like someone removed a part from the animation.
SO after 8 years of playing this game with ALL the changes both good and bad I would love for the game to shut down for MONTHS to give ZOS time to redo ALL animations and other stuff from the ground.

So many great things have been added to this game but some things feel like they are painting over the same painting over and over. Why not take a new frame and start another painting THEN combine them.

Maybe I am just tired of the constant changes to things that just make the game annoying. ZOS SEEMS to look at the foundation now and I hope they just changed it all together. It's 2022 now!

merpins

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

Templar main since beta here.
I've said it in different threads and I will say it here as well. I am one of those liking the new changes. I've been waiting YEARS for ZOS to change animations of this game. Some are so bad... Many of them were better at launch, things were a tad slower and had more fluid movement/weight to them.

Look at staff animations in the early years, they looked so cool. Look at light attack with staves today, it's like someone removed a part from the animation.
SO after 8 years of playing this game with ALL the changes both good and bad I would love for the game to shut down for MONTHS to give ZOS time to redo ALL animations and other stuff from the ground.

So many great things have been added to this game but some things feel like they are painting over the same painting over and over. Why not take a new frame and start another painting THEN combine them.

Maybe I am just tired of the constant changes to things that just make the game annoying. ZOS SEEMS to look at the foundation now and I hope they just changed it all together. It's 2022 now!

I'm not arguing against visual upgrades! those would absolutely be sweet! Going back in each class, upgrading the animation and visuals of each skill, and making entirely new skills out of the ones that people hate or no one uses would be a great use of time. They just need to put the time and effort into remaking those animations.
Take a look at the spoiler in my initial post at the beginning of this forum thread. That explains what's wrong with the animation and how to fix it. As an animator, I can tell you that the new animation probably took some guy a couple hours to make at most. They didn't make any new 3D models, the animation is super rough, and the effects boil down to just some light nodes. This should have taken someone a few days if not the better part of a work week to get looking perfect, feeling perfect, and being a great skill. But it looks and feels rushed. If they made it better, and replaced any reused assets with unique ones, I'd be totally fine with it. But as it is right now, I both hate it and would never use it.

Stx

The new jabs animation is the epitome of how ZoS runs this game. It's a cash cow for them. Least amount of effort possible to get the job done.

I can't believe this game has been out for this long and we have no new skill animations or skills in general other than psijic and vamp rework.

Jazraena

What bothers me most about it is that it forces a staff motif on me instead of a vaguely spear-shaped energy blob tbh.

Mrtoobyy

merpins wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

Templar main since beta here.
I've said it in different threads and I will say it here as well. I am one of those liking the new changes. I've been waiting YEARS for ZOS to change animations of this game. Some are so bad... Many of them were better at launch, things were a tad slower and had more fluid movement/weight to them.

Look at staff animations in the early years, they looked so cool. Look at light attack with staves today, it's like someone removed a part from the animation.
SO after 8 years of playing this game with ALL the changes both good and bad I would love for the game to shut down for MONTHS to give ZOS time to redo ALL animations and other stuff from the ground.

So many great things have been added to this game but some things feel like they are painting over the same painting over and over. Why not take a new frame and start another painting THEN combine them.

Maybe I am just tired of the constant changes to things that just make the game annoying. ZOS SEEMS to look at the foundation now and I hope they just changed it all together. It's 2022 now!

I'm not arguing against visual upgrades! those would absolutely be sweet! Going back in each class, upgrading the animation and visuals of each skill, and making entirely new skills out of the ones that people hate or no one uses would be a great use of time. They just need to put the time and effort into remaking those animations.
Take a look at the spoiler in my initial post at the beginning of this forum thread. That explains what's wrong with the animation and how to fix it. As an animator, I can tell you that the new animation probably took some guy a couple hours to make at most. They didn't make any new 3D models, the animation is super rough, and the effects boil down to just some light nodes. This should have taken someone a few days if not the better part of a work week to get looking perfect, feeling perfect, and being a great skill. But it looks and feels rushed. If they made it better, and replaced any reused assets with unique ones, I'd be totally fine with it. But as it is right now, I both hate it and would never use it.

I totally agree with you that it feels rushed. That is how I find the majority of the animations in this game. Like the sprint animation... I have so many friends thay tried the game for a few hours then dropped it for that one animation. Who runs like that in heavy armor!?
And one handed Light attacks in 1st person. At launch they were Great.

Anyone remember when dual wield heavy attack made TWO sounds? I made tickets and threads about it but was a ninja change from ZOS

I guess why I am liking the two new animations is because of the hope that more animation changes will come.

LesserCircle

It looks bad, it looks really bad. I'm all in with improving skill animations and effects but this isn't an improvement at all.

Zezin

I actually like the new animation makes it nice and easy to light... OH MY GOD ZOS WANTS YOU TO LIGHT ATTACK WEAVE ON TEMPLAR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

But yeah I prefer the new animation, they could have compensated it by making burning light proc on every 3 damage ticks from jabs on a 1 second cooldown and that would have made the skill still be BiS on templar, but then again, ZoS doesn't really care what players think.

francesinhalover

at least use the normal light spear model that already existed and not nighthollow staff.

merpins

Zezin wrote: »

I actually like the new animation makes it nice and easy to light... OH MY GOD ZOS WANTS YOU TO LIGHT ATTACK WEAVE ON TEMPLAR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

But yeah I prefer the new animation, they could have compensated it by making burning light proc on every 3 damage ticks from jabs on a 1 second cooldown and that would have made the skill still be BiS on templar, but then again, ZoS doesn't really care what players think.

The animation itself is the problem for me. I couldn't care less if it got a nerf. I cannot accept an skill rework with both reused assets and poor aimation.

xthrshx

The animation is objectively bad. It violates or ignores the basic principles of animation. It completely misunderstands how spears are held and how the body moves in spear-based combat. The use of a Nighthollow weapon contradicts in-game lore. The sound is out of sync.

These are simple, objective truths. If some small minority of players prefer the new animation, good for them. But objectively it is a failure.

Cast_El

Yeah sound is also bad 😔

Vahndamme

Either keep the animation but sped up make a proper UPGRADE. The spoiler in OP's post says it right. The lunge and deep jab is really missed. Not sure what the twist and turn is what we have with the new jabs. Like a warrior wielding a spear would never twist it like that. The lunge we have now is more realistic. Spears are meant to jab, back and forward motion with deeper lunges or so. They should not and I repeat, should NOT be twisting around your body. An amateur does that. Break the tip while you twist ?? Also your muscles don't give strength to your jabs in that motion. A backward pose and lunge forward with body weight does.

Bad design the new jabs, real bad animation. Ps. Also boost it's dmg output. It's a joke.. flurry with it's out of sync light attack animation is outperforming it. Gotta be real here??

Vahndamme

Stx wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

Exactly this, but people don't know so they out for blood. NERF jabs amg.

rmajereub17_ESO

If the goal of this new abomination was one less jab that made it easier for the less able players to pull off weaving between the skill then I don’t understand why we can’t just have both? I never had trouble weaving with jabs as it was. Just add the beloved classic one to the skill as a morph and scale its four jabs to be equal to the damage the three jabs coat rack puts out. Then either jabs animation would be putting out the same damage and those of us who don’t wanna touch that decorative coat rack could just keep using what we love. Just add a little note in the morph that weaving is harder to achieve on the classic animation and everyone else oils be happy. If we choose the classic animation with “hard mode weaving” then it’s on us if we can pull it off. Heck, in PvP if harder to weave and you can mess up then the “can’t walk slightly sideways to flank and watching the jabs smack dead air” type ppl ought be happy to see us knowing their odds are better! Then when it comes to PvE if we mess up weaving through a few rotations it would be so insignificant we’d not even notice since LA and what have you have been handed these nerfs.

LukosCreyden

The new jabs is really not good. I used to love playing Templar, but I won't touch it whilst that animation exists. [snip]

We KNOW that ZOS are capable of much grander things than this. So, why are we getting these animations, that are obviously not up to their usual standard? I hate throwing out such negativity, as I am very fond of the people at ZOS. They all same like great people with a genuine passion for what they do, but I feel that if we say nothing, we will be stuck with these robotic [snip] animations with mismatching sound effects for the rest of the game's life.

[edited for bashing]

FlamingBeard

LukosCreyden wrote: »

The new jabs is really not good. I used to love playing Templar, but I won't touch it whilst that animation exists. [snip]

We KNOW that ZOS are capable of much grander things than this. So, why are we getting these animations, that are obviously not up to their usual standard? I hate throwing out such negativity, as I am very fond of the people at ZOS. They all same like great people with a genuine passion for what they do, but I feel that if we say nothing, we will be stuck with these robotic [snip] animations with mismatching sound effects for the rest of the game's life.

Critique is not negativity. You are a customer and you shouldn't feel guilty for voicing your opinion!

[edited to remove quote]

rmajereub17_ESO

LukosCreyden wrote: »

The new jabs is really not good. I used to love playing Templar, but I won't touch it whilst that animation exists. [snip]

We KNOW that ZOS are capable of much grander things than this. So, why are we getting these animations, that are obviously not up to their usual standard? I hate throwing out such negativity, as I am very fond of the people at ZOS. They all same like great people with a genuine passion for what they do, but I feel that if we say nothing, we will be stuck with these robotic [snip] animations with mismatching sound effects for the rest of the game's life.

Yeah, the [snip] constant recycling of models simply reskinned recently has been disappointing. Or how High Isle and the public dungeons are so barren, there’s only a smattering of monsters you run into. Walk into a public dungeon from Vvardenfell or Summerset and there’s an exciting large group of baddies you fight through and can farm up runebox pieces from. Whereas there’s a lot of walking and empty safe spaces with a few small groups of baddies to fight in the High Isle public dungeons. Know Zenimax has two games they had to delay until next year that Microsoft expected and would have loved to have got out for the holiday quarter coming up. Maybe they’re bouncing talent around within their different studios to finish things up? Regardless, totally agree with you. Jabs deserves so much better. Hope the devs can end up keeping both animations like I suggested earlier or revert back to the jabs we know and love.

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Firstmep

It's too late now,

Vahndamme wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

Exactly this, but people don't know so they out for blood. NERF jabs amg.

It's about skill.
At lower skill levels jabs can be very oppressive, but once you learn to strafe it it's actually really easy to deal with.
I dont even bother jabbing people who arent on the ground or trying to face tank me, it's a waste of gcd whizzing at air.

Vahndamme

Firstmep wrote: »

It's too late now,

Vahndamme wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

Jabs is a broken ability and it's very hard to play against in PvP. There are other ways to play templar. It was my main for about 5 or 6 years and I never once leveled up the skill and has massive success. With that being said the change isn't as bad as people say it is. They should keep it but make it so it's not completely useless.

The animation is horrendous.

And no jabs isn't hard to play against.. it's extremely easy to play against. Major evasion and strafing while fighting a templar is all you need to negate his damage.

Exactly this, but people don't know so they out for blood. NERF jabs amg.

It's about skill.
At lower skill levels jabs can be very oppressive, but once you learn to strafe it it's actually really easy to deal with.
I dont even bother jabbing people who arent on the ground or trying to face tank me, it's a waste of gcd whizzing at air.

Yeah exactly... and people cry murder because it's "too strong" like it's a channel and gotta aim. Many counters to it in PvP and in PvE it isn't flawless either. I agree it was a bit too strong compared to other routes out there but then bring them more together. No just slap a big fat nerf on it so weapon spammables are better

renne

Honestly, the re-skin using an existing motif in the game is the most embarrassing part and reflects SO poorly on ZOS that not only would they gut an iconic class spammable to the point there's more value to the class to no longer use it, they're straight up too lazy to even bother to design a new, individual look for it, the thing that's supposed to be unique and representative of the class as its spammable.