Where are the promised sorcerer buffs? This was literally nothing.

Turtle_Bot

jaws343 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade on live is too strong with basically unlimited ability to cloak, move, and heal without impacting their ability to do damage at all. Forcing them to stand still at least a little bit is a necessary change.

But this patch butchers sorcerer and warden and they've given us nothing back but a slap in the face.

As I said. Read elswyer patch notes. They were completely gutted. It's literally a joke among players who have stuck with blades through the later patches. NB is a glass cannon. There is zero room for mistakes. You hit one snare and your done. Can't take your opponent down in 2 hits? done. It's an assassin class. That's the basis of it. Cloak makes the class and you don't heal while cloaked, it's expensive, and it's a 2 second skill. You spam it and you may not have the ability to attack after, you don't and you will be one shotted by the first templar or sorc to cross your path. No pvp night blade uses that particular ability unless it is a tanky build which is really unusual so it will do nothing for pvp to nerf it. It basically just destroys the opportunity for pve nb tank builds which were already hurting. Cloak btw is useless in pve. It requires a tremendous amount of skill to play nb well because the rotation can never be completely static while other classes are tanky, strapped with heals, and hit like a truck in both pvp and pve. They also require substantially less skill and can simply spam two attacks and wreck everything. Hating the play style of a class doesn't make it op by default. All the angst around blades is just getting irritating. I've mained nb for a while and when folks that have been running hard content for a long time with really good rotations only hits 95k on nb main while the same person easily cracks 110k on a sorc alt without breaking a sweat it puts things in perspective a lot. Literally the only time folks are happy I'm playing a blade in pve is when I'm running vcr because having a self heal is pretty much mandatory for portals.

As a sorc main who has also played plenty of nb, dk, and plar over the years (nb is my worst class btw). I can say for a fact that nb are no where near as flimsy on the defense as you make them out to be, especially in the current patch (U34). They have one of the best instant cast burst heals in the game (comparable to plar breath of life and cro resistent flesh), a reliable HoT (assuming you want to give up invis, which is another topic), stam in particular has access to THE best HoT in the game in vigor and another heal + resource restore off LA/HA, they have THE best gap creator in shade and a crazy amount of mitigation from class skills and passives including against sieges, convergance and all the ever present "bomb" builds. This is all on top of a class burst kit that 1 shots 35k health players from full in only 2 skills and a light attack that has no counter play because the first hit also stuns.

-Lets compare NB's to sorcs (magsorcs in particular as they are what this thread is about).
Defensive options:
-Burst heals:
-Sorc burst heal is tied to a 20k health pet that takes up 2 bar slots and always running off and getting itself killed. It also takes 3 seconds uninterrupted to re summon this pet, during this duration sorcs have no heals and cannot do anything else because the pet won't be summoned otherwise. Or lets look at dark deal instead, the same issue, a 1 second cast time for a fixed healing value that is already less than half of what most burst heals of other classes provide before battle spirit is taken into account, on top of which is easily interruptable as long as the enemy is paying attention and like the pet summon, if interrupted locks the skill for 3 seconds, leaving the sorc with 0 heals. Compare this to nbs, an instant cast burst heal that is among the highest healing values in the game (even compared to plars and cros) that takes only 1 bar slot and cannot be prevented by interruption or killing a 1 hit pet.
Heals over Time:
-Sorc has no built in heal over time that can be used defensively. Crit surge requires you to be dealing damage to get a low value flat heal that cannot be buffed outside of powered trait, mending or critically healing. A passive that requires you to deal damage to an enemy using a dark magic ability, but this skill line has no DoT ability to proc this passive meaning you get a less than 1k heal per frags/weapon cast. NB's have refreshing path that provides a really nice HoT that is buffed by damage values and also provides major expedition, they can forgo invis to get a currently overpowered HoT in dark cloak (yes its getting nerfed next patch, but is still going to be a good HoT and is a class ability) and lastly they have access to siphoning weapons that gives a heal and resource sustain per light attack over a long duration.
-Mitigation:
-Sorcs have access to major resolve (standard buff all classes have), minor resolve (all stam and most mag builds on every class will have this in U35 from vigor), gap creation in streak/ball of lightning (neither skill works in lag due to being a gap closer and if they go BoL they lack a reliable stun), lastly shields, which have not been an option ever since zos reworked the formula for damage and healing to scale off raw damage at a much greater rate than off max stats which forces sorcs to choose to have damage or have mitigation while all other classes freely get both. Meanwhile NB's have major evasion, minor resolve (and in U35 this same skill also gives even cheaper dodge rolls), major resolve, invisibility which still mitigates dot damage for some unknown reason (probably a bug that is yet to be properly fixed) and essentially provides 100% mitigation in lag even with detect pots/abilities, and a gap creating ability that works through/around line of sight/different heights and works in lag.

Next, lets compare the damage of both classes.
Typical NB burst combo that consists of 2 skills and 1 light attack from stealth with typically a proc set or 2 to add to the damage. this combo takes at most, 2-3 seconds to cast, and provides the following:
-Guaranteed crit
-Hard CC (Stun), yes removed in U35, but is still given in the current U34.
-Very high burst potential (this combo easily hits upwards of 30k+ damage through mitigation)
-Very low to zero counter play, because it is from stealth there is almost no way to see this burst coming and prepare for it or attempt to play around it.
-There is a second way to burst with a bomb build, but this also has very similar ease of use (only 2 abilities used when landing the combo) and low counter play (again it's form stealth) with the main difference being it is an aoe build and requires getting 1 kill to trigger a chain reaction instead of single target kill.

Typical magsorc burst combo consists of 5 skills. This combo takes minimum 5 seconds to cast and does not work in lag due to reliance on a gap closer for CC to land the combo.
-An ultimate that plays a telling sound with delayed land time that can be blocked or that changes your light attacks to have a longer travel time and much brighter visual making them super easy to see and avoid.
-A purgeable single target delayed burst that again plays a telling sound that indicates when a burst is coming that allows for counter play (block/dodge/heals)
-An rng based "spammable" (frags) that has a cast time if you don't get the proc and also has a long travel time allowing for easy counter play through dodging. OR a spammable that requires a destro staff being equipped which means much lower raw stats and a lower base tooltip due to being a range ability OR an over tuned ability that is clunky to use and relies on light attack weaving, that is also getting completely gutted in U35.
-An gap closing stun that doesn't work in lag that also positions you behind your target, facing the wrong direction, giving them time to break free from your CC and dodge out while you turn around to attempt to land the final blow.
-An execute that only procs when the target is already practically dead that has zero scaling and again the proc can be purged before it triggers.
-For an aoe version it requires getting lucky and having a target hit multiple mines (each cast of this skill is 5k+ mag which is the most expensive damage skill in the game iirc) and this ability to simultaneously trigger multiple mines on 1 target is being removed in U35 as well.

Lastly, this 5 ability burst combo still caps out most of the time at about 25-28k damage after mitigation unless they get lucky on a crit or have no defensive options while still having very easy counter play because it is so highly telegraphed that it is incoming.

Like I said, I have played both classes and NB is so much more forgiving than sorc and has much higher and easier burst compared to sorc. Sorc has been gutted ever since the switch to max stats not mattering with the only thing ever making sorcs viable was sets that were bugged/broken or if an ability gets overtuned like crystal weapon was. The class kit itself as a whole has not functioned at all ever since those changes and every patch it gets worse for sorcs because everyone complains about the 3 week meta in 2015 where sorcs were everywhere because once again a broken set combination was found.

All of this is spot on. Wanted to add 2 things here too.

Firstly, the execute is not only purgable, it is dodgable and has to be pre-loaded to a target to really be effective due to the stun putting you behind the target. Which means, any competent opponent getting hit with Curse, needs only to dodge once or twice immediately after to completely negate the majority of the burst combo.

Secondly, even comparing a similar ranged combo for a nightblade not hitting from melee in stealth, the nightblade at range has the better setup and burst combo and is still in range after the combo ends. For example, a magNB running Meteor, Swallow Soul, Cloak and Merciless, with Crippling Grasp, is going to have a far more effective combo.

For one major reason too, the NB combo is incredibly unpredictable. You can load up the light attacks to get the Merciless proc, and then hold on activating the proc until you are ready, all while continuing to pressure with Swallow Soul. Then, it is a simple Meteor+Crippling+Merciless combo, followed by a Cloak to guarantee one of those will be a crit. Swallow soul to finish them off if the combo didn't kill.

NB isn't relying on a sticky "Dot" to set up their burst combo, that is easily noticed by an opponent and readily evaded.

Dang, I didn't realise it was also dodgable, like wtf.
Completely agree on these points too, Also another comparison is "ranged plar". they can load up PotL (minor breach), launch a dark flare (defile) or spam a couple of crushing weapons (major breach) or both, to wear you down, then load up a meteor into binding javelin timed to land with the PotL burst to nuke your health bar to nothing, likely even from full.

Sorc's pvp burst is actually atrocious when compared to other classes, even classes that are supposed to be melee by design (nb/plar) have better ranged burst combos than sorcs which are supposed to be the ranged dd class as per their design.
It gets even worse when you start looking into the bow skill line (poison injection into snipe +silver shards into bow ulti) which gives ALL stam specs access to an insane ranged burst combo that gives amazing passives as well.

MetallicMonk

After testing more on PTS it's become painfully obvious sorc is now arguably the worst class in the game by a noticeable amount. This is strictly in a PvP context and mostly in 1vx/dueling/small scale scenarios, if you don't care about how classes are performing at the top or are running in a very large group this will effect you less.

All of the current weakness of sorc remain into next patch; very easily avoidable damage, worst healing and defense in the game, no reliable ultimate, less burst than classes who are designed around pressure instead of burst. This is now added to the fact that overtuned sets and abilities like crystal weapon and savage werewolf are heavily nerfed(rightfully so) with nothing added to the class to help it after.

Currently it seems now that on top of having the worst defensive kit and complete lack of burst heal sorc now has the worst offensive kit as well leaving nothing really worthwile on this class outside of being in a large group and being a negate bot and possibly bombard spammer.

I have around 1500 hours on sorc currently and less than 100 hours on every other class, it's really mostly all I play and I can say I cannot see myself playing it too much next patch with how it is on PTS at the moment.

Nathyiel

Between Magsorc and Magden, I don't know what to think of all of this.

I have 1000+ hours on MagSorc, nearly 700h on Magden.

Turtle_Bot

Nathyiel wrote: »

Between Magsorc and Magden, I don't know what to think of all of this.

I have 1000+ hours on MagSorc, nearly 700h on Magden.

oof, I feel for you, the 2 worst classes in the game (though both have very fun aspects and themes).

at least magden has a good heal and cc now to pair with their already strong heals over time with the changes to arctic, so they have that going for them. definitely in a better spot than sorcs next patch.

I'm actually considering trying out magden myself next patch. there's a few things I want to try with the class that might be decent.

Nathyiel

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

oof, I feel for you, the 2 worst classes in the game (though both have very fun aspects and themes).

at least magden has a good heal and cc now to pair with their already strong heals over time with the changes to arctic, so they have that going for them. definitely in a better spot than sorcs next patch.

I'm actually considering trying out magden myself next patch. there's a few things I want to try with the class that might be decent.

I hope you find something that don't need Scorch if change pass

Turtle_Bot

Nathyiel wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

oof, I feel for you, the 2 worst classes in the game (though both have very fun aspects and themes).

at least magden has a good heal and cc now to pair with their already strong heals over time with the changes to arctic, so they have that going for them. definitely in a better spot than sorcs next patch.

I'm actually considering trying out magden myself next patch. there's a few things I want to try with the class that might be decent.

I hope you find something that don't need Scorch if change pass

what I've been testing, the nerf to scorch does hurt, especially if you are using it the way it's currently used on live, but there are ways to get the damage back up that I've found.
I have actually been using the first hit to help pressure the enemy, forcing resources as they tend to try to avoid the first hit to avoid the breach, but the mag morph also has a second hit now, so I line my actual burst with that second hit and it hits hard, near 30k, especially against a chilled and off balance enemy which is easy to inflict on them. If the first hit of scorch also lands, that timed burst on the second hit is killer.

acastanza_ESO

MetallicMonk wrote: »

After testing more on PTS it's become painfully obvious sorc is now arguably the worst class in the game by a noticeable amount. This is strictly in a PvP context and mostly in 1vx/dueling/small scale scenarios, if you don't care about how classes are performing at the top or are running in a very large group this will effect you less.

All of the current weakness of sorc remain into next patch; very easily avoidable damage, worst healing and defense in the game, no reliable ultimate, less burst than classes who are designed around pressure instead of burst. This is now added to the fact that overtuned sets and abilities like crystal weapon and savage werewolf are heavily nerfed(rightfully so) with nothing added to the class to help it after.

Currently it seems now that on top of having the worst defensive kit and complete lack of burst heal sorc now has the worst offensive kit as well leaving nothing really worthwile on this class outside of being in a large group and being a negate bot and possibly bombard spammer.

I have around 1500 hours on sorc currently and less than 100 hours on every other class, it's really mostly all I play and I can say I cannot see myself playing it too much next patch with how it is on PTS at the moment.

I simply can not understand how they continue to think that this is fine.
The class is fundamentally broken by poor design decisions from years ago and there seems to be zero will to work on actually addressing its fundamental problems. Sorc should fill the ranged niche to Nightblade's meleee, with a nightblade if you let it get behind you you're dead, with a sorc, unless you stay right on top of it it should always be able to burst you down. That is simply not the case with the state that the class has been neglected into.

MetallicMonk

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Minalan

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Embarrassing would be an improvement over where Sorc is.

acastanza_ESO

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Maybe in a couple months we'll get a 1% buff to frags proc chance

Turtle_Bot

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Maybe in a couple months we'll get a 1% buff to frags proc chance

But they'll take the damage buff to the proc away. Can't have sorcs being too op now lest we recreate that 3 week 2015 sorc meta.

Turtle_Bot

Minalan wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Embarrassing would be an improvement over where Sorc is.

Agreed, sorc is quite possibly the first ever F-tier class in eso. Even magden for all of it's failings still had good, reliable heals and healing over time combined with decent mitigation passives and group support allowing for some very strong support builds for group play.

preevious

I think this thread represents the big flaw of eso in a nutshell.

ALL post on that thread is written on a PVP perpective.
I mean, PvP is important, and it's proponents should be accomodated as well .. but it's hard for the DEVs to take such a thread seriously when it represents 1% of the game's population.

They should use battle spirit more to balance both side differently.

KilianDermoth

Even in PVE the class is in most situations bottom tier and overall the mag version is bad, while the stam version was at least mediocre. Now both might be even worse than before.

Just have a look at this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7666071/#Comment_7666071

Turtle_Bot

preevious wrote: »

I think this thread represents the big flaw of eso in a nutshell.

ALL post on that thread is written on a PVP perpective.
I mean, PvP is important, and it's proponents should be accomodated as well .. but it's hard for the DEVs to take such a thread seriously when it represents 1% of the game's population.

They should use battle spirit more to balance both side differently.

100% they need to use battle spirit to balance the modes separately more. although I have to disagree about pvp being only 1% of the population.
It certainly seems that way on pc eu and console, but it never used to be and as the PC NA server upgrades proved, fixing performance will bring the pvp player base back very fast. Even during a very broken meta such as the current oakensoul meta players returned in droves when they saw that performance had improved.

Ankael07

Quethrosar wrote: »

magsorc is not weak in pvp, sure we die, but also have a good kill / assist amounts.
this is without pets.
you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.
weave the spam , use mage fury when low, shard when it procs.
not any different than a pve fight.

if you want to own than use oakensoul, easily get 15+ kills that way, less without it.

oh don't use crap gear, use mother's and wrath, crits for the win.

i'm usually pretty good on kill counts this way.

Elemental wall and Splash in pvp?
Crit chance based build in pvp where everyone has base crit resist + more??
Casting Mage's Fury on low hp targets instead of high HP for timed burst???
Casting Shard when it procs instead of timing it with your Curse or Fury????

The reason youre ''pretty good on kill counts'' is youre stealing others kills on Battlegrounds with Fury nothing more

Minalan

Ankael07 wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

magsorc is not weak in pvp, sure we die, but also have a good kill / assist amounts.
this is without pets.
you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.
weave the spam , use mage fury when low, shard when it procs.
not any different than a pve fight.

if you want to own than use oakensoul, easily get 15+ kills that way, less without it.

oh don't use crap gear, use mother's and wrath, crits for the win.

i'm usually pretty good on kill counts this way.

Elemental wall and Splash in pvp?
Crit chance based build in pvp where everyone has base crit resist + more??
Casting Mage's Fury on low hp targets instead of high HP for timed burst???
Casting Shard when it procs instead of timing it with your Curse or Fury????

The reason youre ''pretty good on kill counts'' is youre stealing others kills on Battlegrounds with Fury nothing more

He's still low elo in BGs, playing with people that just found out that they have thumbs.

Wait until he gets to the four DK tank groups or gets to play with people smart enough not to stand in red AOE.

He's in for a big surprise, and it's going to be funny as hell .

PS: This class is hot trash and the designers apparently do not care.

MetallicMonk

Garbage class still, less damage than everyone in PvP, less defenses than everyone in PvP, completely reliant on stupid pets in PvE, all semblance of fun and class identity removed.

Caribou77

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Embarrassing would be an improvement over where Sorc is.

Agreed, sorc is quite possibly the first ever F-tier class in eso. Even magden for all of it's failings still had good, reliable heals and healing over time combined with decent mitigation passives and group support allowing for some very strong support builds for group play.

Gonna disagree here. I PVP magsorc and magden, and while magsorc is in a very sorry state for all reasons detailed above, magwarden is worse. God is it ever.

I solo magwarden in bgs, because I like the challenge of making an absolutely failed PVP toolkit work, I guess. Trying to do decent damage to a good player with any Magden skill is… let’s say it requires determination and lots of patience. Screaming birds are 100% useless. Even slower and more dodgeable than crystal frags, AND they do no damage. Magden has no self heal. On matriarch I can get 12k self heal (before battlespirit), enchanted growth I can only get 9k. Magden is slow, weak, and its skills dont synergize well. The one competitive pvp skill it has Deep Fissure, is challenging to land on good players and pretty slow for PVP (vs one button hits like surprise attack or molten whip).

U35 nerfed deep fissure hard. If Magsorc is F tier (which it may be), Magden is unratable dog crap.

I speak the truth.

DrSlaughtr

I love these threads. They always end to just being angry nightblade complaints. 😆 I love you guys.

Magsorc could use a little love 100%.

Caribou77

Hm?

Minalan

Caribou77 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Daily reminder that magsorc and sorc in general for that matter is in an embarrassing state on PTS.

Embarrassing would be an improvement over where Sorc is.

Agreed, sorc is quite possibly the first ever F-tier class in eso. Even magden for all of it's failings still had good, reliable heals and healing over time combined with decent mitigation passives and group support allowing for some very strong support builds for group play.

Gonna disagree here. I PVP magsorc and magden, and while magsorc is in a very sorry state for all reasons detailed above, magwarden is worse. God is it ever.

I solo magwarden in bgs, because I like the challenge of making an absolutely failed PVP toolkit work, I guess. Trying to do decent damage to a good player with any Magden skill is… let’s say it requires determination and lots of patience. Screaming birds are 100% useless. Even slower and more dodgeable than crystal frags, AND they do no damage. Magden has no self heal. On matriarch I can get 12k self heal (before battlespirit), enchanted growth I can only get 9k. Magden is slow, weak, and its skills dont synergize well. The one competitive pvp skill it has Deep Fissure, is challenging to land on good players and pretty slow for PVP (vs one button hits like surprise attack or molten whip).

U35 nerfed deep fissure hard. If Magsorc is F tier (which it may be), Magden is unratable dog crap.

I speak the truth.

I feel for you guys, both classes are trash tier. At least nobody can one-shot your enchanted growth and watch it not work anymore.

The part that really kills me inside? I paid real cash money to unlock warden. What do we get for it? Lol

Caribou77

Fair point: Matriarch is dead about 50% of the time I hit it for a heal, and get locked into the summoning animation instead. Which means you’re pretty much dead.

Pelanora

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Garbage class still, less damage than everyone in PvP, less defenses than everyone in PvP, completely reliant on stupid pets in PvE, all semblance of fun and class identity removed.

Well, this is depressing.

In a world riddled with magic, founded on magic, players' magic should have some kick to it.