Where are the promised sorcerer buffs? This was literally nothing.

MetallicMonk

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Just see what they did to nb. imagine streak losing its stun in exchange of guarantee crit if used fom behind... once per 4 seconds and only in 1 target... So ask for revert double stack crystal or go home, sorcs are just fine.

Damn I'm just picturing it now; super high damage, an insane burst heal, great mobility, and a new really cool and effective roll passive on phantasmal, must be really rough being a nightblade. You must not being playing it optimally to not be able to get results with that friend!

Comparing your spammable to streak is pretty weird, I'm sure you're not reaching whatsoever though.

MetallicMonk

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

[In no-proc, no-cp? I'll put 69 gold on Gina of Bruma any day.

Also I have no idea why zos is editing or deleting my posts, I don't believe they were bad by any means.

I was just saying I'd like my 69 gold.

Glantir

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Just see what they did to nb. imagine streak losing its stun in exchange of guarantee crit if used fom behind... once per 4 seconds and only in 1 target... So ask for revert double stack crystal or go home, sorcs are just fine.

They already removed the stun of crystal frags years ago .

Just because you think sorc is fine, doesnt mean it really is. Other people make other experiences. It also depends if we are talking about pvp or pve...

FrancisCrawford

Brrrofski wrote: »

Sorc is now the only class without a reliable burst heal.

Dark deal has cast time. Matriarch dies in PvP and takes up two slots.

Shields are not an effective way to survive anymore. They're outdated. Size hasn't gone up in years but damage keeps going up.

I like the Matriarch heal in dungeons.

That said, when I do dungeons I'm almost always either soloing, duoing w/ @DarcyMardin, or else healing a PUG. And I haven't done much of any of those things for (roughly) a year.

Didgerion

MetallicMonk wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

[In no-proc, no-cp? I'll put 69 gold on Gina of Bruma any day.

Also I have no idea why zos is editing or deleting my posts, I don't believe they were bad by any means.

I was just saying I'd like my 69 gold.

Sorry acastanza, 69 goes to MetallicMonk.

It was a magsorc vs magsorc fight. Not a fight I was looking for lol. I wanted someone to show me that magsorc is indeed underperforming in PvP. I don't feel it that way and now after the fight with MetallicMonc I just see that magsorc can be even stronger than I thought.

Personally I don't want to see any more buffs/nerfs added to any class this DLC. It feels like ZOS blindly buffs and nerfs skills now just to find the sweet spot.

Caribou77

What’s Metallic Monk using for heals on his PVP Magsorc build? 🤔

MetallicMonk

Didgerion wrote: »

Sorry acastanza, 69 goes to MetallicMonk.

It was a magsorc vs magsorc fight. Not a fight I was looking for lol. I wanted someone to show me that magsorc is indeed underperforming in PvP. I don't feel it that way and now after the fight with MetallicMonc I just see that magsorc can be even stronger than I thought.

Personally I don't want to see any more buffs/nerfs added to any class this DLC. It feels like ZOS blindly buffs and nerfs skills now just to find the sweet spot.

Unfortunately the truth is sorc is very lacking compared to other classes, a top tier player on any of the other classes besides warden can easily dismantle sorc, especially next patch once crystal weapon is adjusted, and rightfully so it's very overtuned currently. This class is a complete joke until they give it some more reliable burst/damage, and better shielding or a more powerful and consistent burst heal.

Idinuse

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Nothing but unnecessary NB buffs.

not even buffs tbh.

As a night blade main the changes to dark cloak make it basically worthless. Having to stand still for it to be decent? no ty.
also attaching the damage buff on concealed to the end duration of expedition seems odd.

• mSorc promised buff but got nothing of substance
• dk molten whip buff why? if I recall people were actually asking to have stacks removed if the whip hit got dodged instead, we got the opposite.
• beam buffed why?
• the changes to vigor is actually significant, good or bad I don't know. Could make the patch too tanky.

DK whip was gutted/ the dmg of it. We need burst dmg not extra 5 sec to weapon dmg buff.
Sorc dead yes.
Mag templar too.
No idea why they buff beam tbh. Its already one of the best executes. Atleast in grp play. (i see no good player running it solo)
Vigor change are BS. Buffing only stam and tank builds. Mag ones get nothing. Sp yes, will make the patch too tanky, but one sided.

Mags can use vigor... I use 2 mag skills on my stams. With no issues

Maybe Interrupt, doge, block and sprint should use magicka now??.... No?

I suggest Interrupt, doge, block and sprint should use stamina if your max magicka is higher than stamina and magicka if your max stamina is higher than magicka. Welcome to the salt mines.

Quethrosar

magsorc is not weak in pvp, sure we die, but also have a good kill / assist amounts.
this is without pets.
you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.
weave the spam , use mage fury when low, shard when it procs.
not any different than a pve fight.

if you want to own than use oakensoul, easily get 15+ kills that way, less without it.

oh don't use crap gear, use mother's and wrath, crits for the win.

i'm usually pretty good on kill counts this way.

MetallicMonk

Quethrosar wrote: »

magsorc is not weak in pvp, sure we die, but also have a good kill / assist amounts.
this is without pets.
you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.
weave the spam , use mage fury when low, shard when it procs.
not any different than a pve fight.

if you want to own than use oakensoul, easily get 15+ kills that way, less without it.

oh don't use crap gear, use mother's and wrath, crits for the win.

i'm usually pretty good on kill counts this way.

You must be the one they are listening to based on their schizo balancing habits and changes.

Quethrosar

or you aren't good at it? i don't consider myself good at pvp at all, but am never at bottom.

MetallicMonk

Quethrosar wrote: »

or you aren't good at it? i don't consider myself good at pvp at all, but am never at bottom.

Or maybe, and bear with me here because I know this might be a stretch; I have vastly more experience in a PvP setting with this class at the top end than you, including playing against others of similar caliber on other classes allowing me to have a more broad perspective of the class's true performance.

Probably not though I mean I guess you did do your first BG about a week ago, you're probably right.

Quethrosar

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

or you aren't good at it? i don't consider myself good at pvp at all, but am never at bottom.

Or maybe, and bear with me here because I know this might be a stretch; I have vastly more experience in a PvP setting with this class at the top end than you, including playing against others of similar caliber on other classes allowing me to have a more broad perspective of the class's true performance.

Probably not though I mean I guess you did do your first BG about a week ago, you're probably right.

can be very true. I just saying how i see it from my perspective.
but what would you want different? a nuke for 50k damage ?

MetallicMonk

Quethrosar wrote: »

can be very true. I just saying how i see it from my perspective.

That's fine it's just slightly dishonest to come in with a statement like "x is not bad at PvP" when your experience is very limited and there is no way you can honestly make this statement while being informed.

Quethrosar wrote: »

but what would you want different? a nuke for 50k damage ?

Or like, any of the other adjustments I've said or others have said they could do? Give exploitation 10% critical damage while having a dark magic ability slotted, make shields scale off spell damage, or make shields unable to be crit, make our burst heal untargetable and able to be utilized on only 1 bar instead of double barring, remove the cast time on frags and make it a true spammable, get rid of garbage skills like encase that literally nobody uses for more purposeful and interesting skills.

They don't have to do all of these but even some of them are worth looking at to slowly adjust and bring the class back up to par.

MashmalloMan

Quethrosar wrote: »

you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.

I'm sorry but advice like this, shows that you're probably playing low MMR. I mean no disrespect.

Quethrosar wrote: »

but what would you want different? a nuke for 50k damage ?

There has been countless suggestions in this thread and others, not a single person is asking for a "nuke".

MashmalloMan

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Or like, any of the other adjustments I've said or others have said they could do? Give exploitation 10% critical damage while having a dark magic ability slotted, make shields scale off spell damage, or make shields unable to be crit, make our burst heal untargetable and able to be utilized on only 1 bar instead of double barring, remove the cast time on frags and make it a true spammable, get rid of garbage skills like encase that literally nobody uses for more purposeful and interesting skills.

They don't have to do all of these but even some of them are worth looking at to slowly adjust and bring the class back up to par.

@MetallicMonk This is something @ESO_Nightingale and I brainstormed. Credit to them for the tooltip:



By no means is this the only thing sorc needs, but it would add a lot more flavour to the class kit. As we discussed, it seemed best if NB focussed on Crit Damage for burst, while Sorc focussed more on Crit Chance for pressure and healing.

Thats why I don't think adding 10% crit damage/healing to Sorc is a good idea. That should be NB's thing, they can get guaranteed crits from Shadowy Disguise and now Surprise attack so it seems like ZOS at least partially believes in that too.

The new Conceiled Weapon change to give 10% damage done after expedition expiring and 100% roll dodge cost on Blur is amazing class identity I would kill to have added to sorc. It's almost like someone on the dev team actually thinks about fun factor and what a class is suppose to be good at...

Sorc has a ton of flat heals that don't scale based on weapon/spell damage or max resource, so leaning more into crit chance improves healing quite well. Crit and Power Surge also show a necessity for higher crit chance and tick frequency to pull off correctly.

I think attaching a little crit chance based on movement speed gates it from being too powerful in pve where crit chance is king. 5% is also pretty small, it's just some nice flavour added to the kit to support the idea's I mentioned above, especially on what is thought to be 1 of the quickest classes in the game.

MetallicMonk

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@MetallicMonk This is something @ESO_Nightingale and I brainstormed. Credit to them for the tooltip:



By no means is this the only thing sorc needs, but it would add a lot more flavour to the class kit. As we discussed, it seemed best if NB focussed on Crit Damage for burst, while Sorc focussed more on Crit Chance for pressure and healing.

Thats why I don't think adding 10% crit damage/healing to Sorc is a good idea. That should be NB's thing, they can get guaranteed crits from Shadowy Disguise and now Surprise attack.

Sorc has a ton of flat heals that don't scale based on weapon/spell damage or max resource, so leaning more into crit chance improves healing quite well. Crit and Power Surge also show a necessity for higher crit chance and tick frequency to pull off correctly.

I think attaching a little crit chance based on movement speed gates it from being too powerful in pve where crit chance is king. 5% is also pretty small, it's just some nice flavour added to the kit to support the idea's I mentioned above.

While I'm not against having a little bit of extra crit chance I'd really prefer the extra crit damage or honestly anything else that would be more noticeable. Not only would the full 5% crit chance barely be noticeable it would frequently just not even be a full 5% or would be for short instances unless your built into speed at least a slight amount. Not to mention it's already not that hard to get a decent crit rate even in PvP on sorc because you have access to minor prophecy.

Realistically crit chance is really not at all impactful unless there is crit damage backing it up, having a high crit rate is meaningless if the crits on my healing and damage are not impactful.

MashmalloMan

MetallicMonk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@MetallicMonk This is something @ESO_Nightingale and I brainstormed. Credit to them for the tooltip:



By no means is this the only thing sorc needs, but it would add a lot more flavour to the class kit. As we discussed, it seemed best if NB focussed on Crit Damage for burst, while Sorc focussed more on Crit Chance for pressure and healing.

Thats why I don't think adding 10% crit damage/healing to Sorc is a good idea. That should be NB's thing, they can get guaranteed crits from Shadowy Disguise and now Surprise attack.

Sorc has a ton of flat heals that don't scale based on weapon/spell damage or max resource, so leaning more into crit chance improves healing quite well. Crit and Power Surge also show a necessity for higher crit chance and tick frequency to pull off correctly.

I think attaching a little crit chance based on movement speed gates it from being too powerful in pve where crit chance is king. 5% is also pretty small, it's just some nice flavour added to the kit to support the idea's I mentioned above.

While I'm not against having a little bit of extra crit chance I'd really prefer the extra crit damage or honestly anything else that would be more noticeable. Not only would the full 5% crit chance barely be noticeable it would frequently just not even be a full 5% or would be for short instances unless your built into speed at least a slight amount. Not to mention it's already not that hard to get a decent crit rate even in PvP on sorc because you have access to minor prophecy.

Realistically crit chance is really not at all impactful unless there is crit damage backing it up, having a high crit rate is meaningless if the crits on my healing and damage are not impactful.

I disagree. You can use different paths to achieve the same goal. That is how classes should be designed. Just adding more crit damage/healing is stepping on the toes of NB, Templar and Warden. That would be 4/6 classes with same passive. I'd rather have consistancy than random burst.

Either way, a class is just the starting point. If you want more crit damage/healing, investing into it via other sets, mundus stones, etc is always an option.

The general idea of speed for more crit chance is what I'm highlighting, I have no idea what value would be best, but typically crit chance to damage is a 1:2 ratio. Maybe slightly more potential is warranted because it's attached to movement speed.

40% movement speed isn't hard to achieve, but it does require a little investment. Maybe 30% would be better, idk. I just want more interesting ways to build than slapping on more crit damage.

MetallicMonk

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I disagree. You can use different paths to achieve the same goal. That is how classes should be designed. Just adding more crit damage/healing is stepping on the toes of NB, Templar and Warden. That would be 4/6 classes with same passive. I'd rather have consistancy than random burst.

Either way, a class is just the starting point. If you want more crit damage/healing, investing into it via other sets, mundus stones, etc is always an option.

The general idea of speed for more crit chance is what I'm highlighting, I have no idea what value would be best, but typically crit chance to damage is a 1:2 ratio. Maybe slightly more potential is warranted because it's attached to movement speed.

40% movement speed isn't hard to achieve, but it does require a little investment. Maybe 30% would be better, idk. I just want more interesting ways to build than slapping on more crit damage.

All of my posts are definitely coming from a PvP perspective but NB and sorc are not only similar in playstyle but even in their design of being the burst/crit classes so I really don't mind having a passive changed to match theirs that is already very similar, while I'm not against other changes it really doesn't bother me having one passive match theirs. I don't even think it would be imbalanced in PvE seeing as sorc is supposed to take over highly in single target encounters which they definitely don't.

The problem with your statement about crit damage and healing and investing into it, is it just doesn't become all that viable especially from a mag standpoint, medium armor is very powerful because it gives you that crit damage passive but utilizing medium armor cripples your mag sustain, forcing you into a sustain set or mundus which cripples your damage defeating the purpose of a crit build. Also medium armor gives very powerful passives that compliment roll dodging which is a very useful tool on sorc, and when building into light armor you end up needing well fitted traits, removing the viability even more of running divines+shadow mundus.

Crit builds are just very solid right now in PvP and sorc, a bursty and class revolving around crits unfortunately just cannot utilize this in a meaningful way without a way of reliably pushing crit damage without gutting everything else.

acastanza_ESO

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sorry acastanza, 69 goes to MetallicMonk.

It was a magsorc vs magsorc fight. Not a fight I was looking for lol. I wanted someone to show me that magsorc is indeed underperforming in PvP. I don't feel it that way and now after the fight with MetallicMonc I just see that magsorc can be even stronger than I thought.

Personally I don't want to see any more buffs/nerfs added to any class this DLC. It feels like ZOS blindly buffs and nerfs skills now just to find the sweet spot.

Unfortunately the truth is sorc is very lacking compared to other classes, a top tier player on any of the other classes besides warden can easily dismantle sorc, especially next patch once crystal weapon is adjusted, and rightfully so it's very overtuned currently. This class is a complete joke until they give it some more reliable burst/damage, and better shielding or a more powerful and consistent burst heal.

Dang, guess I'll have to pay up then! Very interested to hear what MetallicMonk brought to the fight!

acastanza_ESO

Quethrosar wrote: »

magsorc is not weak in pvp, sure we die, but also have a good kill / assist amounts.
this is without pets.
you need to play alot like you would in pve, lay down your wall with maelstrom, and lightning splash to help.
weave the spam , use mage fury when low, shard when it procs.
not any different than a pve fight.

if you want to own than use oakensoul, easily get 15+ kills that way, less without it.

oh don't use crap gear, use mother's and wrath, crits for the win.

i'm usually pretty good on kill counts this way.

Sorry but you can't effectively play a sorc this way in PVP. No one will stand in your wall (also, wall is getting nerfed into the ground), lightning splash is possibly one of the worst ground dots in the game. Your spammabe ends up being a non-class skill that doesn't proc some of the important sorc passives because you can't hard cast frags in PVP without getting interrupted and killed. In PVE you're also pigeonholed into using pets that die instantly in PVP as your main in-class heal. The class sucks.

Turtle_Bot

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade on live is too strong with basically unlimited ability to cloak, move, and heal without impacting their ability to do damage at all. Forcing them to stand still at least a little bit is a necessary change.

But this patch butchers sorcerer and warden and they've given us nothing back but a slap in the face.

As I said. Read elswyer patch notes. They were completely gutted. It's literally a joke among players who have stuck with blades through the later patches. NB is a glass cannon. There is zero room for mistakes. You hit one snare and your done. Can't take your opponent down in 2 hits? done. It's an assassin class. That's the basis of it. Cloak makes the class and you don't heal while cloaked, it's expensive, and it's a 2 second skill. You spam it and you may not have the ability to attack after, you don't and you will be one shotted by the first templar or sorc to cross your path. No pvp night blade uses that particular ability unless it is a tanky build which is really unusual so it will do nothing for pvp to nerf it. It basically just destroys the opportunity for pve nb tank builds which were already hurting. Cloak btw is useless in pve. It requires a tremendous amount of skill to play nb well because the rotation can never be completely static while other classes are tanky, strapped with heals, and hit like a truck in both pvp and pve. They also require substantially less skill and can simply spam two attacks and wreck everything. Hating the play style of a class doesn't make it op by default. All the angst around blades is just getting irritating. I've mained nb for a while and when folks that have been running hard content for a long time with really good rotations only hits 95k on nb main while the same person easily cracks 110k on a sorc alt without breaking a sweat it puts things in perspective a lot. Literally the only time folks are happy I'm playing a blade in pve is when I'm running vcr because having a self heal is pretty much mandatory for portals.

As a sorc main who has also played plenty of nb, dk, and plar over the years (nb is my worst class btw). I can say for a fact that nb are no where near as flimsy on the defense as you make them out to be, especially in the current patch (U34). They have one of the best instant cast burst heals in the game (comparable to plar breath of life and cro resistent flesh), a reliable HoT (assuming you want to give up invis, which is another topic), stam in particular has access to THE best HoT in the game in vigor and another heal + resource restore off LA/HA, they have THE best gap creator in shade and a crazy amount of mitigation from class skills and passives including against sieges, convergance and all the ever present "bomb" builds. This is all on top of a class burst kit that 1 shots 35k health players from full in only 2 skills and a light attack that has no counter play because the first hit also stuns.

-Lets compare NB's to sorcs (magsorcs in particular as they are what this thread is about).
Defensive options:
-Burst heals:
-Sorc burst heal is tied to a 20k health pet that takes up 2 bar slots and always running off and getting itself killed. It also takes 3 seconds uninterrupted to re summon this pet, during this duration sorcs have no heals and cannot do anything else because the pet won't be summoned otherwise. Or lets look at dark deal instead, the same issue, a 1 second cast time for a fixed healing value that is already less than half of what most burst heals of other classes provide before battle spirit is taken into account, on top of which is easily interruptable as long as the enemy is paying attention and like the pet summon, if interrupted locks the skill for 3 seconds, leaving the sorc with 0 heals. Compare this to nbs, an instant cast burst heal that is among the highest healing values in the game (even compared to plars and cros) that takes only 1 bar slot and cannot be prevented by interruption or killing a 1 hit pet.
Heals over Time:
-Sorc has no built in heal over time that can be used defensively. Crit surge requires you to be dealing damage to get a low value flat heal that cannot be buffed outside of powered trait, mending or critically healing. A passive that requires you to deal damage to an enemy using a dark magic ability, but this skill line has no DoT ability to proc this passive meaning you get a less than 1k heal per frags/weapon cast. NB's have refreshing path that provides a really nice HoT that is buffed by damage values and also provides major expedition, they can forgo invis to get a currently overpowered HoT in dark cloak (yes its getting nerfed next patch, but is still going to be a good HoT and is a class ability) and lastly they have access to siphoning weapons that gives a heal and resource sustain per light attack over a long duration.
-Mitigation:
-Sorcs have access to major resolve (standard buff all classes have), minor resolve (all stam and most mag builds on every class will have this in U35 from vigor), gap creation in streak/ball of lightning (neither skill works in lag due to being a gap closer and if they go BoL they lack a reliable stun), lastly shields, which have not been an option ever since zos reworked the formula for damage and healing to scale off raw damage at a much greater rate than off max stats which forces sorcs to choose to have damage or have mitigation while all other classes freely get both. Meanwhile NB's have major evasion, minor resolve (and in U35 this same skill also gives even cheaper dodge rolls), major resolve, invisibility which still mitigates dot damage for some unknown reason (probably a bug that is yet to be properly fixed) and essentially provides 100% mitigation in lag even with detect pots/abilities, and a gap creating ability that works through/around line of sight/different heights and works in lag.

Next, lets compare the damage of both classes.
Typical NB burst combo that consists of 2 skills and 1 light attack from stealth with typically a proc set or 2 to add to the damage. this combo takes at most, 2-3 seconds to cast, and provides the following:
-Guaranteed crit
-Hard CC (Stun), yes removed in U35, but is still given in the current U34.
-Very high burst potential (this combo easily hits upwards of 30k+ damage through mitigation)
-Very low to zero counter play, because it is from stealth there is almost no way to see this burst coming and prepare for it or attempt to play around it.
-There is a second way to burst with a bomb build, but this also has very similar ease of use (only 2 abilities used when landing the combo) and low counter play (again it's form stealth) with the main difference being it is an aoe build and requires getting 1 kill to trigger a chain reaction instead of single target kill.

Typical magsorc burst combo consists of 5 skills. This combo takes minimum 5 seconds to cast and does not work in lag due to reliance on a gap closer for CC to land the combo.
-An ultimate that plays a telling sound with delayed land time that can be blocked or that changes your light attacks to have a longer travel time and much brighter visual making them super easy to see and avoid.
-A purgeable single target delayed burst that again plays a telling sound that indicates when a burst is coming that allows for counter play (block/dodge/heals)
-An rng based "spammable" (frags) that has a cast time if you don't get the proc and also has a long travel time allowing for easy counter play through dodging. OR a spammable that requires a destro staff being equipped which means much lower raw stats and a lower base tooltip due to being a range ability OR an over tuned ability that is clunky to use and relies on light attack weaving, that is also getting completely gutted in U35.
-An gap closing stun that doesn't work in lag that also positions you behind your target, facing the wrong direction, giving them time to break free from your CC and dodge out while you turn around to attempt to land the final blow.
-An execute that only procs when the target is already practically dead that has zero scaling and again the proc can be purged before it triggers.
-For an aoe version it requires getting lucky and having a target hit multiple mines (each cast of this skill is 5k+ mag which is the most expensive damage skill in the game iirc) and this ability to simultaneously trigger multiple mines on 1 target is being removed in U35 as well.

Lastly, this 5 ability burst combo still caps out most of the time at about 25-28k damage after mitigation unless they get lucky on a crit or have no defensive options while still having very easy counter play because it is so highly telegraphed that it is incoming.

Like I said, I have played both classes and NB is so much more forgiving than sorc and has much higher and easier burst compared to sorc. Sorc has been gutted ever since the switch to max stats not mattering with the only thing ever making sorcs viable was sets that were bugged/broken or if an ability gets overtuned like crystal weapon was. The class kit itself as a whole has not functioned at all ever since those changes and every patch it gets worse for sorcs because everyone complains about the 3 week meta in 2015 where sorcs were everywhere because once again a broken set combination was found.

Caribou77

My pvp experience w/Magsorc:

Shields arent worth casting
Endless Fury/Mages Wrath is a mediocre execute n doesnt compare to others in damage
Crystal frags are slow and extremely dodgeable
Learn to hit Streak 1.5 seconds before you think you’ll need it
Matriarch will heal you okay when she’s not dead
Power Overload is good

If you see a competent MagDk or Magplar you better get the hell away from them and keep going

boi_anachronism_

Caribou77 wrote: »

My pvp experience w/Magsorc:

Shields arent worth casting
Endless Fury/Mages Wrath is a mediocre execute n doesnt compare to others in damage
Crystal frags are slow and extremely dodgeable
Learn to hit Streak 1.5 seconds before you think you’ll need it
Matriarch will heal you okay when she’s not dead
Power Overload is good

If you see a competent MagDk or Magplar you better get the hell away from them and keep going

If your anything but a dk or or a plar run the other way when you see one 😂

Turtle_Bot

Caribou77 wrote: »

My pvp experience w/Magsorc:

Shields arent worth casting
Endless Fury/Mages Wrath is a mediocre execute n doesnt compare to others in damage
Crystal frags are slow and extremely dodgeable
Learn to hit Streak 1.5 seconds before you think you’ll need it
Matriarch will heal you okay when she’s not dead
Power Overload is good

If you see a competent MagDk or Magplar you better get the hell away from them and keep going

you forgot to include
Keep a detect pot running at all times and just expect to die out of nowhere whenever it's down because there's always a nb hiding around the corner waiting to 1 shot you into oblivion

Turtle_Bot

Idinuse wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Nothing but unnecessary NB buffs.

not even buffs tbh.

As a night blade main the changes to dark cloak make it basically worthless. Having to stand still for it to be decent? no ty.
also attaching the damage buff on concealed to the end duration of expedition seems odd.

• mSorc promised buff but got nothing of substance
• dk molten whip buff why? if I recall people were actually asking to have stacks removed if the whip hit got dodged instead, we got the opposite.
• beam buffed why?
• the changes to vigor is actually significant, good or bad I don't know. Could make the patch too tanky.

DK whip was gutted/ the dmg of it. We need burst dmg not extra 5 sec to weapon dmg buff.
Sorc dead yes.
Mag templar too.
No idea why they buff beam tbh. Its already one of the best executes. Atleast in grp play. (i see no good player running it solo)
Vigor change are BS. Buffing only stam and tank builds. Mag ones get nothing. Sp yes, will make the patch too tanky, but one sided.

Mags can use vigor... I use 2 mag skills on my stams. With no issues

Maybe Interrupt, doge, block and sprint should use magicka now??.... No?

I suggest Interrupt, doge, block and sprint should use stamina if your max magicka is higher than stamina and magicka if your max stamina is higher than magicka. Welcome to the salt mines.

I wouldn't mind seeing this change.

Aces-High-82

Caribou77 wrote: »

My pvp experience w/Magsorc:

Shields arent worth casting
Endless Fury/Mages Wrath is a mediocre execute n doesnt compare to others in damage
Crystal frags are slow and extremely dodgeable
Learn to hit Streak 1.5 seconds before you think you’ll need it
Matriarch will heal you okay when she’s not dead
Power Overload is good

If you see a competent MagDk or Magplar you better get the hell away from them and keep going

Overload is a good ulti but in lag it's almost impossible to LA weave properly (pc EU) and you're left to opt for two decent pve options (meteor/atro). Atm magsorc has no other role than being a negate support bot in ball groups or a pewpew keep defender.

Minalan

Fix our class already ZOS. FFS your player base is leaving, give us a reason to play and stay.

You know you won’t have jobs without us right?

Savagejack

Crystal Weapon no longer benefits as a melee spammable. Shouldn't Overload and Crystal Weapon switch places then? I'd like to see Overload made into a lightning spammable for magicka and stam sorc morphs. Then have the old crystal weapon function as the toggle ultimate that consumes ult when the light attack hits. Storm Calling is the dps skill line. Seems like the dmg spammable belongs there.

jaws343

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade on live is too strong with basically unlimited ability to cloak, move, and heal without impacting their ability to do damage at all. Forcing them to stand still at least a little bit is a necessary change.

But this patch butchers sorcerer and warden and they've given us nothing back but a slap in the face.

As I said. Read elswyer patch notes. They were completely gutted. It's literally a joke among players who have stuck with blades through the later patches. NB is a glass cannon. There is zero room for mistakes. You hit one snare and your done. Can't take your opponent down in 2 hits? done. It's an assassin class. That's the basis of it. Cloak makes the class and you don't heal while cloaked, it's expensive, and it's a 2 second skill. You spam it and you may not have the ability to attack after, you don't and you will be one shotted by the first templar or sorc to cross your path. No pvp night blade uses that particular ability unless it is a tanky build which is really unusual so it will do nothing for pvp to nerf it. It basically just destroys the opportunity for pve nb tank builds which were already hurting. Cloak btw is useless in pve. It requires a tremendous amount of skill to play nb well because the rotation can never be completely static while other classes are tanky, strapped with heals, and hit like a truck in both pvp and pve. They also require substantially less skill and can simply spam two attacks and wreck everything. Hating the play style of a class doesn't make it op by default. All the angst around blades is just getting irritating. I've mained nb for a while and when folks that have been running hard content for a long time with really good rotations only hits 95k on nb main while the same person easily cracks 110k on a sorc alt without breaking a sweat it puts things in perspective a lot. Literally the only time folks are happy I'm playing a blade in pve is when I'm running vcr because having a self heal is pretty much mandatory for portals.

As a sorc main who has also played plenty of nb, dk, and plar over the years (nb is my worst class btw). I can say for a fact that nb are no where near as flimsy on the defense as you make them out to be, especially in the current patch (U34). They have one of the best instant cast burst heals in the game (comparable to plar breath of life and cro resistent flesh), a reliable HoT (assuming you want to give up invis, which is another topic), stam in particular has access to THE best HoT in the game in vigor and another heal + resource restore off LA/HA, they have THE best gap creator in shade and a crazy amount of mitigation from class skills and passives including against sieges, convergance and all the ever present "bomb" builds. This is all on top of a class burst kit that 1 shots 35k health players from full in only 2 skills and a light attack that has no counter play because the first hit also stuns.

-Lets compare NB's to sorcs (magsorcs in particular as they are what this thread is about).
Defensive options:
-Burst heals:
-Sorc burst heal is tied to a 20k health pet that takes up 2 bar slots and always running off and getting itself killed. It also takes 3 seconds uninterrupted to re summon this pet, during this duration sorcs have no heals and cannot do anything else because the pet won't be summoned otherwise. Or lets look at dark deal instead, the same issue, a 1 second cast time for a fixed healing value that is already less than half of what most burst heals of other classes provide before battle spirit is taken into account, on top of which is easily interruptable as long as the enemy is paying attention and like the pet summon, if interrupted locks the skill for 3 seconds, leaving the sorc with 0 heals. Compare this to nbs, an instant cast burst heal that is among the highest healing values in the game (even compared to plars and cros) that takes only 1 bar slot and cannot be prevented by interruption or killing a 1 hit pet.
Heals over Time:
-Sorc has no built in heal over time that can be used defensively. Crit surge requires you to be dealing damage to get a low value flat heal that cannot be buffed outside of powered trait, mending or critically healing. A passive that requires you to deal damage to an enemy using a dark magic ability, but this skill line has no DoT ability to proc this passive meaning you get a less than 1k heal per frags/weapon cast. NB's have refreshing path that provides a really nice HoT that is buffed by damage values and also provides major expedition, they can forgo invis to get a currently overpowered HoT in dark cloak (yes its getting nerfed next patch, but is still going to be a good HoT and is a class ability) and lastly they have access to siphoning weapons that gives a heal and resource sustain per light attack over a long duration.
-Mitigation:
-Sorcs have access to major resolve (standard buff all classes have), minor resolve (all stam and most mag builds on every class will have this in U35 from vigor), gap creation in streak/ball of lightning (neither skill works in lag due to being a gap closer and if they go BoL they lack a reliable stun), lastly shields, which have not been an option ever since zos reworked the formula for damage and healing to scale off raw damage at a much greater rate than off max stats which forces sorcs to choose to have damage or have mitigation while all other classes freely get both. Meanwhile NB's have major evasion, minor resolve (and in U35 this same skill also gives even cheaper dodge rolls), major resolve, invisibility which still mitigates dot damage for some unknown reason (probably a bug that is yet to be properly fixed) and essentially provides 100% mitigation in lag even with detect pots/abilities, and a gap creating ability that works through/around line of sight/different heights and works in lag.

Next, lets compare the damage of both classes.
Typical NB burst combo that consists of 2 skills and 1 light attack from stealth with typically a proc set or 2 to add to the damage. this combo takes at most, 2-3 seconds to cast, and provides the following:
-Guaranteed crit
-Hard CC (Stun), yes removed in U35, but is still given in the current U34.
-Very high burst potential (this combo easily hits upwards of 30k+ damage through mitigation)
-Very low to zero counter play, because it is from stealth there is almost no way to see this burst coming and prepare for it or attempt to play around it.
-There is a second way to burst with a bomb build, but this also has very similar ease of use (only 2 abilities used when landing the combo) and low counter play (again it's form stealth) with the main difference being it is an aoe build and requires getting 1 kill to trigger a chain reaction instead of single target kill.

Typical magsorc burst combo consists of 5 skills. This combo takes minimum 5 seconds to cast and does not work in lag due to reliance on a gap closer for CC to land the combo.
-An ultimate that plays a telling sound with delayed land time that can be blocked or that changes your light attacks to have a longer travel time and much brighter visual making them super easy to see and avoid.
-A purgeable single target delayed burst that again plays a telling sound that indicates when a burst is coming that allows for counter play (block/dodge/heals)
-An rng based "spammable" (frags) that has a cast time if you don't get the proc and also has a long travel time allowing for easy counter play through dodging. OR a spammable that requires a destro staff being equipped which means much lower raw stats and a lower base tooltip due to being a range ability OR an over tuned ability that is clunky to use and relies on light attack weaving, that is also getting completely gutted in U35.
-An gap closing stun that doesn't work in lag that also positions you behind your target, facing the wrong direction, giving them time to break free from your CC and dodge out while you turn around to attempt to land the final blow.
-An execute that only procs when the target is already practically dead that has zero scaling and again the proc can be purged before it triggers.
-For an aoe version it requires getting lucky and having a target hit multiple mines (each cast of this skill is 5k+ mag which is the most expensive damage skill in the game iirc) and this ability to simultaneously trigger multiple mines on 1 target is being removed in U35 as well.

Lastly, this 5 ability burst combo still caps out most of the time at about 25-28k damage after mitigation unless they get lucky on a crit or have no defensive options while still having very easy counter play because it is so highly telegraphed that it is incoming.

Like I said, I have played both classes and NB is so much more forgiving than sorc and has much higher and easier burst compared to sorc. Sorc has been gutted ever since the switch to max stats not mattering with the only thing ever making sorcs viable was sets that were bugged/broken or if an ability gets overtuned like crystal weapon was. The class kit itself as a whole has not functioned at all ever since those changes and every patch it gets worse for sorcs because everyone complains about the 3 week meta in 2015 where sorcs were everywhere because once again a broken set combination was found.

All of this is spot on. Wanted to add 2 things here too.

Firstly, the execute is not only purgable, it is dodgable and has to be pre-loaded to a target to really be effective due to the stun putting you behind the target. Which means, any competent opponent getting hit with Curse, needs only to dodge once or twice immediately after to completely negate the majority of the burst combo.

Secondly, even comparing a similar ranged combo for a nightblade not hitting from melee in stealth, the nightblade at range has the better setup and burst combo and is still in range after the combo ends. For example, a magNB running Meteor, Swallow Soul, Cloak and Merciless, with Crippling Grasp, is going to have a far more effective combo.

For one major reason too, the NB combo is incredibly unpredictable. You can load up the light attacks to get the Merciless proc, and then hold on activating the proc until you are ready, all while continuing to pressure with Swallow Soul. Then, it is a simple Meteor+Crippling+Merciless combo, followed by a Cloak to guarantee one of those will be a crit. Swallow soul to finish them off if the combo didn't kill.

NB isn't relying on a sticky "Dot" to set up their burst combo, that is easily noticed by an opponent and readily evaded.