Dark Convergence

JustAGoodPlayer

Durham wrote: »

The set itself is not a problem its the situation that it creates.

CC is an extremally powerful tool in a game. Just the CC by itself is strong enough for this set to be used by groups.

In the game I want you to look a keep defense. You will see most of the people there defending are probably not even in a group they are just there defending the best they can. I want you to look at the health of these players. In PVP especially in AD you see people running around with 23k health all the time. Why because this is good health in PVE. In keep fights most of these people do not fight and die they defend and run. They are all just pulled into a ball and are insta killed. These guys stood no threat lol. Any organized group would have destroyed them but instead of giving them a chance to use abilities you pulled them in a little bomb and insta killed them. Due to low health it does not matter if you block or not. This is not healthy for the PVP community and deters people from staying in PVP.

Last night in a keep fight as a blue group zerg came into a keep. This zerg outnumbered its defenders 2 to 1. I saw 7 DC animations. There was no zerg in the keep they used it on Guards and a few randoms that are trying to get into the door.

PVP will only use sets that are effective stop trying to push the fact that this set is not effective when it dominates the PVP scene atm. Its CC contribution is powerful tool that almost every organized group utilizes right now.

I know. I am from this shamefull allyance too )))

Some of them even have 16-20k hp ... .

https://youtu.be/pofDzV_l3Rk

TechMaybeHic

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

This set is not even a problem if you can press block in 2 seconds you can see the animation )

So player who can not press a block and have 2 seconds for that ask to nerf set ?

OK ! Lags are problem, some times you even do not see animation.

True - it is a problem !

But fix lag problem than, what set did to you?

Regardless of power or counter, DC is just obnoxious and disruptive to any file of combat. That's a problem. Single target pulls are not exactly effective but obnoxious. Now you throw that into one of the largest AOEs, and stun AFTER the pull? Killing or not; that is overly powerful as far as disruption.

JustAGoodPlayer

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

This set is not even a problem if you can press block in 2 seconds you can see the animation )

So player who can not press a block and have 2 seconds for that ask to nerf set ?

OK ! Lags are problem, some times you even do not see animation.

True - it is a problem !

But fix lag problem than, what set did to you?

Regardless of power or counter, DC is just obnoxious and disruptive to any file of combat. That's a problem. Single target pulls are not exactly effective but obnoxious. Now you throw that into one of the largest AOEs, and stun AFTER the pull? Killing or not; that is overly powerful as far as disruption.

There are just may be more premades and players who helps with PVP to people.

TechMaybeHic

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

This set is not even a problem if you can press block in 2 seconds you can see the animation )

So player who can not press a block and have 2 seconds for that ask to nerf set ?

OK ! Lags are problem, some times you even do not see animation.

True - it is a problem !

But fix lag problem than, what set did to you ?

Im not sure I'd be telling people about how easy they should do anything and then post that video.

JustAGoodPlayer

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

This set is not even a problem if you can press block in 2 seconds you can see the animation )

So player who can not press a block and have 2 seconds for that ask to nerf set ?

OK ! Lags are problem, some times you even do not see animation.

True - it is a problem !

But fix lag problem than, what set did to you ?

Im not sure I'd be telling people about how easy they should do anything and then post that video.

What do not like on video ? I was not get killed in PVE sets that i was lazy to change - full devince.

Even after i get stuck by bug in roof )))

Even if enemy do not use it nothing really change - accult overload CP star is more problem, because the same ally with 16k HP do more damage to you than enemy, and such guys always stuck on you, even with out convergence

TechMaybeHic

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

This set is not even a problem if you can press block in 2 seconds you can see the animation )

So player who can not press a block and have 2 seconds for that ask to nerf set ?

OK ! Lags are problem, some times you even do not see animation.

True - it is a problem !

But fix lag problem than, what set did to you ?

Im not sure I'd be telling people about how easy they should do anything and then post that video.

What do not like on video ? I was not get killed in PVE sets that i was lazy to change - full devince.

Even after i get stuck by bug in roof )))

Even if enemy do not use it nothing really change - accult overload CP star is more problem, because the same ally with 16k HP do more damage to you than enemy, and such guys always stuck on you, even with out convergence

Well; its hard to find a word to politely describe how odd it is to tell others to just block and roll out of it while they might actually be doing damage in close as opposed to mostly staying back holding the left mouse button and largely being ignored as those heavy attacks are likely just helping that group build ulti.

And that bug is from your Psijiic ult. You can get out of it by mounting if you ever manage to get out of combat.

And yes; occult overload is a possible problem by how much it does, but staying away from squishy targets would save you, if DC doesn't just pull you right next to one right as they die

Billium813

Faulgor wrote: »

I'm not sure how to balance this set for PvP, but the nerf to 25 second cooldown really hurts its application for PvE.

I couldn't agree more on this! When they changed DC to remove the number of pull targets limit and scaled the dmg per target, I immediately started running in PvE for trash pulls and it's SOOO fun. Using on trash pulls and boss ads doesn't add much dps in all honesty, but the utility makes me love having it so much!

Faulgor wrote: »

It's currently a fantastic support set for my healer in dungeons, but with such a long cooldown, I'll probably get to use it only every third trash fight. As it's already pretty useless for boss fights, that makes it kinda crap.

Unfortunately, the cooldown nerf will make this unusable in PvE for exactly this reason. Right now I think the cooldown is almost in that sweetspot to reload between most trash pulls, but doubling it makes it only every 3 pulls. It already doesn't add much dps, so if you nerf the utility so you can't use it when you need it... its neutered in PvE imo.

Now, that's fine if you want to argue that this is a PvP set anyway and if it no longer is usable in PvE then tough break. But in my opinion, the cooldown nerf doesn't really fix the issue for PvP either! It feels like an easy attempt to fix (make it fire less often) a complex issue.

I have had it used on me alot in IC and BGs. The issue in PvP is the COMBO that DC is used with AND the inability to dodge it! When a random Dark Convergence goes off and there is no combo, the damage is almost never enough to do any real damage. Sure, its disorienting and a bit annoying, but it's not that bad. It pulls 3-4 people, everyone runs out, and the fight resumes. What I find the most annoying is that it goes off so quickly, you can't prepare for it.

How about this change?

Increase the radius to 12 meters, but increase the pull delay to 2 seconds. Make the AOE visual more obvious (sound and graphix) and make the pull roll dodge-able.

If I can see it coming and dodge roll out of the pull, I wont be hit by the follow up COMBO. If the point of the set is to combat zerg groups, I really don't think the whole zerg group will be able to dodge roll it. Most will not see it (cause when a Zerg is going on, its hard to see individual mechanics on screen) or be unable to dodge roll (they are running & dodging uses stam)

StarOfElyon

Tevalicious wrote: »

Our group has already stopped using dark con, and likely wont go back to it after the 25s cooldown. It doesn't preform well in GvGs, and there are better sets to use for pulls. Dark con really is not that big of a deal anymore. In GH NA its mainly used by zerg/pug guilds and bombers and it is quite east to counter. The 25s cooldown nerf is a balanced change that keeps it more geared toward solo or small group bombing.

Or just bombing everyone in battle grounds which is where it was always toxic.

GetAgrippa

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Tevalicious wrote: »

Our group has already stopped using dark con, and likely wont go back to it after the 25s cooldown. It doesn't preform well in GvGs, and there are better sets to use for pulls. Dark con really is not that big of a deal anymore. In GH NA its mainly used by zerg/pug guilds and bombers and it is quite east to counter. The 25s cooldown nerf is a balanced change that keeps it more geared toward solo or small group bombing.

Or just bombing everyone in battle grounds which is where it was always toxic.

My favorite is getting pulled into lava. So fun. Highly skilled gameplay.

Sandman929

GetAgrippa wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Tevalicious wrote: »

Our group has already stopped using dark con, and likely wont go back to it after the 25s cooldown. It doesn't preform well in GvGs, and there are better sets to use for pulls. Dark con really is not that big of a deal anymore. In GH NA its mainly used by zerg/pug guilds and bombers and it is quite east to counter. The 25s cooldown nerf is a balanced change that keeps it more geared toward solo or small group bombing.

Or just bombing everyone in battle grounds which is where it was always toxic.

My favorite is getting pulled into lava. So fun. Highly skilled gameplay.

Serves you right for being near other players in a MMO. The group of 12 solo players wearing Dark Convergence taught you a lesson about being in a group of non solo players.

davelbier

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

i think it needs to be a 'you can only be affected by this set every X seconds' not just a set cooldown. iirc, this doesnt respect the CC immunity/cooldown right? it should or needs a tweak to that maybe.

and I say that as someone who uses it -- when i am facing big ball groups and my side just cant hang, i switch from PB to DC. im not great at bomb-killing people, but its a great stam drain that softens the enemy up for others to slam on them.

Billium813

davelbier wrote: »

i think it needs to be a 'you can only be affected by this set every X seconds' not just a set cooldown. iirc, this doesnt respect the CC immunity/cooldown right? it should or needs a tweak to that maybe.

I'm fairly certain DC applies a CC immunity. I know that when I use it in PvE, if the Tank uses Void Bash right after, it doesn't pull (and vice-versa). Those two abilities mess with each other in PvE so much that I remember them distinctly.

As far as respecting CC immunity... it depends on what CC was applied before and if there even was a CC immunity applied. Take Rush of Agony, that even says "The pull will not apply Crowd Control Immunity to a target." I think DC respects CC immunity if it's really there.

The part that annoys me is it ignores dodge rolls and fires the pull too quickly after activation; there's no counter play. I'd like to see the pull delayed a bit more and make it dodge rollable.

TechMaybeHic

Billium813 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I'm not sure how to balance this set for PvP, but the nerf to 25 second cooldown really hurts its application for PvE.

I couldn't agree more on this! When they changed DC to remove the number of pull targets limit and scaled the dmg per target, I immediately started running in PvE for trash pulls and it's SOOO fun. Using on trash pulls and boss ads doesn't add much dps in all honesty, but the utility makes me love having it so much!

Faulgor wrote: »

It's currently a fantastic support set for my healer in dungeons, but with such a long cooldown, I'll probably get to use it only every third trash fight. As it's already pretty useless for boss fights, that makes it kinda crap.

Unfortunately, the cooldown nerf will make this unusable in PvE for exactly this reason. Right now I think the cooldown is almost in that sweetspot to reload between most trash pulls, but doubling it makes it only every 3 pulls. It already doesn't add much dps, so if you nerf the utility so you can't use it when you need it... its neutered in PvE imo.

Now, that's fine if you want to argue that this is a PvP set anyway and if it no longer is usable in PvE then tough break. But in my opinion, the cooldown nerf doesn't really fix the issue for PvP either! It feels like an easy attempt to fix (make it fire less often) a complex issue.

I have had it used on me alot in IC and BGs. The issue in PvP is the COMBO that DC is used with AND the inability to dodge it! When a random Dark Convergence goes off and there is no combo, the damage is almost never enough to do any real damage. Sure, its disorienting and a bit annoying, but it's not that bad. It pulls 3-4 people, everyone runs out, and the fight resumes. What I find the most annoying is that it goes off so quickly, you can't prepare for it.

How about this change?

Increase the radius to 12 meters, but increase the pull delay to 2 seconds. Make the AOE visual more obvious (sound and graphix) and make the pull roll dodge-able.

If I can see it coming and dodge roll out of the pull, I wont be hit by the follow up COMBO. If the point of the set is to combat zerg groups, I really don't think the whole zerg group will be able to dodge roll it. Most will not see it (cause when a Zerg is going on, its hard to see individual mechanics on screen) or be unable to dodge roll (they are running & dodging uses stam)

I wouldn't want it any bigger. As is, the annoying part is it is huge, and in some PvP fights with enough in a zerg using it, entire courtyards can get covered.

Billium813

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I wouldn't want it any bigger. As is, the annoying part is it is huge, and in some PvP fights with enough in a zerg using it, entire courtyards can get covered.

I only made it larger as a concession to the change that the pull would be roll dodgeable now and that less people may be hit by the pull now. As is, the 10m distance can be enough, I still think there would be enough IN the zerg that get hit by it while those OUTSIDE the zerg can simply dodge it.

Cyber10

I can understand trying to nerf the set for PvP, but I feel that the cooldown nerf should only be active in a PvP. Why nerf PvE if that is not an issue?

Billium813

Cyber10 wrote: »

I can understand trying to nerf the set for PvP, but I feel that the cooldown nerf should only be active in a PvP. Why nerf PvE if that is not an issue?

I mean, it is a PvP set...

though to be fair, what does that even mean in ESO? There isn't a restriction that it can only be used in PvP. It doesn't have content buffs like Trials gear (Aegis, Slayer) does. It seems to only really imply what it is INTENDED use is for and defend future changes being PvP reasons vs PvE focused.

But they also change "PvE" sets for PvP reasons... idk, it seems nebulous to me.

@ZOS, Make "vs player" a specific buff like Aegis/Slayer for dungeon monsters. We can fix alllll the issues that way.

StarOfElyon

Billium813 wrote: »

Cyber10 wrote: »

I can understand trying to nerf the set for PvP, but I feel that the cooldown nerf should only be active in a PvP. Why nerf PvE if that is not an issue?

I mean, it is a PvP set...

though to be fair, what does that even mean in ESO? There isn't a restriction that it can only be used in PvP. It doesn't have content buffs like Trials gear (Aegis, Slayer) does. It seems to only really imply what it is INTENDED use is for and defend future changes being PvP reasons vs PvE focused.

But they also change "PvE" sets for PvP reasons... idk, it seems nebulous to me.

@ZOS, Make "vs player" a specific buff like Aegis/Slayer for dungeon monsters. We can fix alllll the issues that way.

That would solve a lot the problems of toxic sets in pvp.

Cuddlypuff

davelbier wrote: »

and I say that as someone who uses it -- when i am facing big ball groups and my side just cant hang, i switch from PB to DC. im not great at bomb-killing people, but its a great stam drain that softens the enemy up for others to slam on them.

Please don't. You are not helping anybody on your faction by randomly pulling with low follow up damage. All it does is scatter the opponents and give free CC immunity. Just wait for better bombers to set up the kill stack at the correct timing and feel free to ulti dump over it.

Twohothardware

The pull range needs the nerf hammer. The cooldown change doesn’t fix the problem.

Cyber10

I do not use DC in PvP as I am PvE centered and I made a fun build with DC. ZOS should only make the nerf for DC active while playing in a PvP environment. There is no reason to nerf it in PvE as it will kill the set.

Durham

This set proves that ZoS does not really support the PVP aspect of the game. To increase the time shows they do not understand how this is being used nor do they understand what is going on in PVP.

During the event last night every ball group or every organized group runs this set. Again no diversity at all in PVP. If a group is coming at you you know you are going to get pulled so you spread out, unless you are yourself in a ball group with 40k health. However everywhere you turn there are pulls.

The #1 complaint you get from trying to introduce people to PVP are the sets that are being used. DC is currently #1.

silver1surfer69

Durham wrote: »

This set was not nerfed in the right way. This set is still going to be the go to set in PVP. Every ball group will run it, every small effective group will run it. Its just to good still. On paper it still provides tons of utility. The new 25 sec cool down its sounds pretty bad but its really nothing. This set is part of the current meta, this nerf does nothing to that.

People are going to say its easy to avoid, its crap! Guess what if it is so bad how come every ball group runs it. Every serious 4-8 man runs it. Its a a easy AP curb stomp.

Multiple people in ball groups run this set 25 secs is not enough and not the right way to nerf the set. (Radius change would be best or take away some of the utility of the set) 25 secs will actually hurt the smaller groups not the ball or multi-ball groups.

This set is not competive and it actually hurts the fun in running organized grouping. I so tired of fighting on pulls! If you attack another ball group and lets say both use it who every pulls in a stealth archer with 20k health wins lol.. This is not a good way to win.

Very good statement imo. You totally speak my mind.

TechMaybeHic

Durham wrote: »

This set proves that ZoS does not really support the PVP aspect of the game. To increase the time shows they do not understand how this is being used nor do they understand what is going on in PVP.

During the event last night every ball group or every organized group runs this set. Again no diversity at all in PVP. If a group is coming at you you know you are going to get pulled so you spread out, unless you are yourself in a ball group with 40k health. However everywhere you turn there are pulls.

The #1 complaint you get from trying to introduce people to PVP are the sets that are being used. DC is currently #1.

Yeah, we always have it in our group running from 4-10 players lately (seems we are down in regulars) . Every ball group uses it to multi dump, and every zerg has several.

Even when people don't die to it, it's still annoying and ruins the flow of play.