How can we fix Oakensoul without making it obsolete?

MindOfTheSwarm

A lot of players say that getting rid of Major Heroism and Major Force is the way forward.
I would argue the reverse. Getting rid of Major Heroism is removing its main selling point. I would keep Major Heroism and nerf some of the other bonuses instead.

I would recommend this:

Keep: Major Heroism, Major Protection, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Resolve, Major Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance

Remove: Berserk, Sorcery, Brutality and Force.

Try this and test, if it’s still OP we can go from there. But hit it with the nerf bat too hard and it will end up in the trash pile.

tsaescishoeshiner

I see the idea behind it giving Major Brutality & Sorcery is that those are butfs people often get from skills, so they free up bar space.

That also applies for Major Resolve, Major Prophecy and Savagery, and in PvP, Major Protection.

FluffyBird

PVPers won't complain only when there's no PVP in ESO at all

MentalxHammer

This mythic has been balanced around PvE and should remain there. How do we balance the item without nerfing it? Deactivate it via battle spirit entirely. It is destroying the integrity of PvP in this game.

Brrrofski

Well if the idea is to replace buffs, be it from yourself or group members, surely let's take away what you normally don't have in pve.

Major protection and major heroism are pretty rare buffs there. So I'd start with that and see how it felt.

They're strong buffs in PvP, but you never really had them in pve anyway. Plus the ring would still be good in PvP, still a lot of damage there.

colossalvoids

If there would be a need for a balance pass for PvP it just should leave a problematic stat out to be swapped for another less problematic one, but only in PvP environment obviously.

mocap

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

ccfeeling

No matter how , Pvper won't compromise , I strongly recommend remove it from PVP .

maxjapank

I say leave it alone for a while. It's only been 3 weeks. And from my experience pvping, I haven't seen anything over the top yet. The sky is not falling.

MindOfTheSwarm

mocap wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

Remove Heroism and you kill the appeal in PvP. As others have said Heroism is a rare buff. As such removing this and keeping easy to get buffs negates it’s appeal. If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?
The ring must offer something to offset losing a second bar and what it offers must be something not easily obtainable on a regular two bar setup.

Guaranteed that removing Heroism might kill this ring. Berserk and Force are honestly more of an issue. Berserk and Force are way more powerful, Heroism gets attention because how it is combined with these other buffs.

Hotdog_23

MentalxHammer wrote: »

This mythic has been balanced around PvE and should remain there. How do we balance the item without nerfing it? Deactivate it via battle spirit entirely. It is destroying the integrity of PvP in this game.

I agree the problem with it is PVP related. Just disable it in PVP area's. It would not be the first set item or skill affected differently in PVP gameplay. Leave it as it is intended as an accessibility tool. Personally I played around with it a little and didn't like it. Used to having 2 bars.

Stay safe

KlauthWarthog

Make the buffs only apply while in combat. Attaching a condition disables it on the no-proc campaign, requiring the user to be in combat reduces the use on mindless ganking.

jecks33

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

the problem with it is PVP related.

The problem in Eso IS pvp... anyway I agree with you, just disable it in PVP area's.

NordSwordnBoard

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

Remove Heroism and you kill the appeal in PvP. As others have said Heroism is a rare buff. As such removing this and keeping easy to get buffs negates it’s appeal. If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?
The ring must offer something to offset losing a second bar and what it offers must be something not easily obtainable on a regular two bar setup.

Guaranteed that removing Heroism might kill this ring. Berserk and Force are honestly more of an issue. Berserk and Force are way more powerful, Heroism gets attention because how it is combined with these other buffs.

Removing heroism might keep the ring on the hands that need it the most and off the hands of the ZOS referenced sweaty APM folks. You could also substitute in the slayer buff for any losses the PvE crowd feels.

People are reporting getting ultimate from riding past wolves ffs.

jaws343

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

Remove Heroism and you kill the appeal in PvP. As others have said Heroism is a rare buff. As such removing this and keeping easy to get buffs negates it’s appeal. If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?
The ring must offer something to offset losing a second bar and what it offers must be something not easily obtainable on a regular two bar setup.

Guaranteed that removing Heroism might kill this ring. Berserk and Force are honestly more of an issue. Berserk and Force are way more powerful, Heroism gets attention because how it is combined with these other buffs.

Removing heroism might keep the ring on the hands that need it the most and off the hands of the ZOS referenced sweaty APM folks. You could also substitute in the slayer buff for any losses the PvE crowd feels.

People are reporting getting ultimate from riding past wolves ffs.

Removing Heroism and Force and adding Major Slayer would be interesting. Would open up the option to not need to run a slayer set for solo play, which opens up build options. Maybe just throw in Major Aegis as well. Both would only work in PVE anyways.

TechMaybeHic

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

Remove Heroism and you kill the appeal in PvP. As others have said Heroism is a rare buff. As such removing this and keeping easy to get buffs negates it’s appeal. If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?
The ring must offer something to offset losing a second bar and what it offers must be something not easily obtainable on a regular two bar setup.

Guaranteed that removing Heroism might kill this ring. Berserk and Force are honestly more of an issue. Berserk and Force are way more powerful, Heroism gets attention because how it is combined with these other buffs.

The most off balance thing about it is it takes ultimates that are supposed to be powerful but limited and makes them not limited much at all. And it is not the selling point. The one bar is

TechMaybeHic

jaws343 wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present

pretty much the best fix i saw atm

In short:
While PvE: Major Berserk, Force, Heroism
While PVP: the rest

Remove Heroism and you kill the appeal in PvP. As others have said Heroism is a rare buff. As such removing this and keeping easy to get buffs negates it’s appeal. If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?
The ring must offer something to offset losing a second bar and what it offers must be something not easily obtainable on a regular two bar setup.

Guaranteed that removing Heroism might kill this ring. Berserk and Force are honestly more of an issue. Berserk and Force are way more powerful, Heroism gets attention because how it is combined with these other buffs.

Removing heroism might keep the ring on the hands that need it the most and off the hands of the ZOS referenced sweaty APM folks. You could also substitute in the slayer buff for any losses the PvE crowd feels.

People are reporting getting ultimate from riding past wolves ffs.

Removing Heroism and Force and adding Major Slayer would be interesting. Would open up the option to not need to run a slayer set for solo play, which opens up build options. Maybe just throw in Major Aegis as well. Both would only work in PVE anyways.

I do like the ideas of replacing a couple of the major buffs in Heroism, Berserk, or Force amd replacing them with PvE specific buffs. More likely than expecting a battle spirit mod

fred4

To make it more balanced in PvP, I would drop the Heroism and Force, like most people. Heroism, because it gives DKs too much ultimate uptime, especially of Corrosive Armor, and Force, because it gives nightblade gankers too strong an opener from their guaranteed crit. If there was a quibble between those two, then I would vote for Heroism to go, because DKs are currently one of, if not the strongest spec in PvP, whereas NBs are currently less strong. Nonetheless, the Force is the biggest factor in ganking, so both should probably go.

The last thing I'd want to come out of this is class nerfs. Corrosive was already nerfed a while ago. It no longer affects DOTs. Cloak was arguably balanced a few patches ago, but ZOS screwed up their recent stealth / DOT fix, resulting in Cloak feeling unreliable again. Please no further nerfs to either of those skills. Class skills should be marginally strong, otherwise the game will be homogenised. This is arguably what's happening to magsorc at present. The high magicka, shielding, class-based burst playstyle that weathered all previous patches has been eroded to the verge of extinction.

I rate the sustain, Major Resolve and Major Protection you get from Oakensoul as merely adequate for what you give up. Most class armor skills have side effects that are not directly replaced by Oakensoul. The templar rune gives more primary sustain than Oakensoul. The DK armor skill gives NB detection or a small shield, but more importantly +12% healing from a class passive. The sorc armor skill gives speed and, indirectly, more reliable healing from Crit Surge. A nightblade will typically give up Siphoning Attacks for lack of bar space, giving up sustain, healing and possibly magicka. The end result is that my nightblade feels squishier with Oakensoul than without. In order to make up for that I would have to eat into the Oakensoul damage by wearing tankier gear. How Oakensoul feels IMO differs between builds and between PvP and PvE. On a PvE build I made, I feel marginally tanky. On my PvP NB, I do not. All in all, I think Oakensoul is about right in this department.

The major crit and weapon / spell damage buffs should IMO stay, as these most readily correlate to bar space. Again, the skills actually do more. The lack of an NB detection skill is one of the things I feel most acutely on my Oakensoul build. Then there's Camou Hunter giving you weapon / spell damage and Minor Berserk. This, plus the lack of a back bar enchant or something like a Master's Bow or Vateshran 2H back bar, goes towards why Courage and Berserk are probably justified for Oakensoul.

I am speaking from a PvP perspective, of course. For PvE, isn't the equation rather more simple? Oakensoul is more of a solo / small group item. There are other OP things that live in that space and which few complain about - Pale Order, Master's 2H Brawler buids, Puncturing Sweeps. I can see Oakensoul still being strong in that space without Heroism and Force. In a trial you can get Force from the group, whereas the Heroism I have no idea how that was ever justified on any front other than for selling High Isle. Ultimate costs have been pretty carefully balanced over the years when you think about it. No wonder a source of ulti gen as overloaded as Oakensoul would be problematic.

sharquez

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

Melivar

Major Heroism is really the only thing that when I have used the ring so far made me think yea this isn't going to last.

On my nightblade Incap is pretty much up instantly which i assume would be the same for most other low cost ults and even with my Templar the mages guild ult comes up really fast.

I am sure alot of the PVP issues are coming from Corrosive or Take Flight have such a short cooldown same goes for the ults on the necro and NB bombers.

Changing a few buffs for the PVE specific buffs for soling might be a good trade as mentioned above

El_Borracho

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

TechMaybeHic

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

For PvE; you get new content and new toys to play with without any negative impact to you so of course you gave a narrow lense on these additions and subsequent nerfs as you only see the new toy degraded

For PVP; there's no real updates unless it's new skill lines, classes, or hear. Those get into the pretty fixed environment and can negatively impact every single player. If it's out of line. So things need to happen.

Imagine as an example. You have one shot mechanics in PvE and hate it. What if an update made something to where those are suddenly seen in every fight.
No new content; it just shows up in same content you have been doing for year's. Would you be ok with that and want to just deal with it?

jaws343

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

Funny how all those nerfs you have to eat for PVE because of PVP has resulted in.. your DPS increasing across the board.

AcadianPaladin

There is no problem in coordinated end-game PvE groups since that density of buffs is provided by the group and Oakensoul does not contribute to the group.

There is no conflict/problem for those who use the ring to address personal limitations or for those who simply want to play solo on a simple build.

As a PvE soloist, I don't really expect to use the ring. Since I am not at all skilled in PvP, I'll defer to several posters above who believe that perhaps the ring should be disabled from PvP. Or perhaps equipping the ring in a PvP area turns you into a chicken or goat?

DrNukenstein

Don't nerf it, but raise accessibility to major force, prot, berserk, and heroism through back bar skills.

It's those three buffs that make it out of pocket. Either lower them to minor buffs, or increase access outside of the ring and boom! problem solved.

IZZEFlameLash

If they remove Heroism or any other major buffs, it isn't worth slotting something that limits you to one bar. Period. Only way it is currently worth it is because it provides major buffs to people that have little to no access to such buffs. If they change everything to minor, then it better have no bar restrictions to make it worth the slot. Or else it is an instant trash.

kojou

I don't see the big deal... If everyone is running it in PVP then everyone is balanced.

Maybe it is part of the performance improvement? 5 less skills to do calculations for and no bar swaps. I would be curious to see if it decreases server load.

Solariken

I would consider giving it the Daedric Trickery treatment:

Each time you deal damage, get one of the offensive buffs for X seconds, once each Y seconds.

Each time you take damage, get one of the defensive buffs for X seconds, once each Y seconds.

NordSwordnBoard

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If they remove Heroism or any other major buffs, it isn't worth slotting something that limits you to one bar. Period. Only way it is currently worth it is because it provides major buffs to people that have little to no access to such buffs. If they change everything to minor, then it better have no bar restrictions to make it worth the slot. Or else it is an instant trash.

If you traded Major Heroism for Major Slayer it would be trash?

jaws343

Solariken wrote: »

I would consider giving it the Daedric Trickery treatment:

Each time you deal damage, get one of the offensive buffs for X seconds, once each Y seconds.

Each time you take damage, get one of the defensive buffs for X seconds, once each Y seconds.

That would actually be pretty awesome.

MentalxHammer

sharquez wrote: »

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

The same way steroids ruin athletic competition. It’s a way to circumvent the hard work needed to become a strong PvP player. That and obviously the 1 shot ganking builds and perma-corrosive builds are rampant and overpowered, and are enabled by this item.