How can we fix Oakensoul without making it obsolete?

lPeacekeeperl

jaws343 wrote: »

So, the ring kind of forces me to drop shields, but shields have been wildly underwhelming, so not too bad. Plus, with the right sets, the Matriarch heal is crazy, and you can just as easily go 20-0 using matriarch in a fight as you can using shields.

....

So I am still left with my primary burst combo, that hits way harder (due to a ton of buffs I literally never had access to with the 2 bar build), an Ult that is ready quicker, a strong heal that I was already flexing in place of shields to begin with. And I lose, a defensive Ult that I only used situationally anyways. And I also don't have to worry about bar swap lag.

There are practically no downsides to this ring when you actually build right.

For templar u always keep jabs, some heal, probaly spear and have 2 flex slots
DKs - blood(heal), flames(spamable aoe), breath( debuf,spamable aoe) whip and 1 flex slot to some stun, mobility or other
NB - surprise, invis for gankers or swallow + resolve for mag oneshoter 2-3 other slot for stun, mobility, heal


And now do the same for warden or necromancer.
Not all classes have 2in1 3in1 4in1 skills

And if ypur class feels nice in 5skills build it means in 10 skill it has much more flexebility than class who cannot fit in 5 skills all required for pvp toolset.

jaws343 wrote: »

Please show me, in a group of 4, how everyone in the group can get every buff on this ring, with 100% uptime, in a BG. And then also, with all of these buffs, run 2 separate 5 piece sets that are not just sets to provide these buffs that add even more damage to their builds.

Truthfully, a good two bar PVP build has around 3-4 damage skills, 1-2 heals, and 4-5 buff skills. You see how, once eliminating the need to run 4-5 buff skills, you also eliminate the need to run a back bar. And then the ring boosts your damage even more on top of that.

directli this set of buffs - probaly not.
But, do you forget about passives and second effects of skills? about traits on weapon?
in 2bar setup backbar - usualy SnB, with additional bonus to blocking, which gives you 10-30% of survivability. And it can be even difern set
also front can be sharp|precise|nign (for dmg) and back - defending|powered for beter healing
also you have acces to 14 set pieces. which means you can have monster, arena and 2*5pcs sets


also with 2 bars you have access to 2 sets of poisons or enchants (infused wep.power = 425, almost equal to magor curage)


Changing this ring in any posible way will be huge mistake. "Unpleasant to play against" classes(builds) should be fixed. Like some fixes on DK's ult and NBs|templars oneshot burst potential.

jaws343

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

So, the ring kind of forces me to drop shields, but shields have been wildly underwhelming, so not too bad. Plus, with the right sets, the Matriarch heal is crazy, and you can just as easily go 20-0 using matriarch in a fight as you can using shields.

....

So I am still left with my primary burst combo, that hits way harder (due to a ton of buffs I literally never had access to with the 2 bar build), an Ult that is ready quicker, a strong heal that I was already flexing in place of shields to begin with. And I lose, a defensive Ult that I only used situationally anyways. And I also don't have to worry about bar swap lag.

There are practically no downsides to this ring when you actually build right.

For templar u always keep jabs, some heal, probaly spear and have 2 flex slots
DKs - blood(heal), flames(spamable aoe), breath( debuf,spamable aoe) whip and 1 flex slot to some stun, mobility or other
NB - surprise, invis for gankers or swallow + resolve for mag oneshoter 2-3 other slot for stun, mobility, heal


And now do the same for warden or necromancer.
Not all classes have 2in1 3in1 4in1 skills

And if ypur class feels nice in 5skills build it means in 10 skill it has much more flexebility than class who cannot fit in 5 skills all required for pvp toolset.

jaws343 wrote: »

Please show me, in a group of 4, how everyone in the group can get every buff on this ring, with 100% uptime, in a BG. And then also, with all of these buffs, run 2 separate 5 piece sets that are not just sets to provide these buffs that add even more damage to their builds.

Truthfully, a good two bar PVP build has around 3-4 damage skills, 1-2 heals, and 4-5 buff skills. You see how, once eliminating the need to run 4-5 buff skills, you also eliminate the need to run a back bar. And then the ring boosts your damage even more on top of that.

directli this set of buffs - probaly not.
But, do you forget about passives and second effects of skills? about traits on weapon?
in 2bar setup backbar - usualy SnB, with additional bonus to blocking, which gives you 10-30% of survivability. And it can be even difern set
also front can be sharp|precise|nign (for dmg) and back - defending|powered for beter healing
also you have acces to 14 set pieces. which means you can have monster, arena and 2*5pcs sets


also with 2 bars you have access to 2 sets of poisons or enchants (infused wep.power = 425, almost equal to magor curage)


Changing this ring in any posible way will be huge mistake. "Unpleasant to play against" classes(builds) should be fixed. Like some fixes on DK's ult and NBs|templars oneshot burst potential.

No class should ever be adjusted because of a gear piece.

Duke_Falcon

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Please show me, in a group of 4, how everyone in the group can get every buff on this ring, with 100% uptime, in a BG. And then also, with all of these buffs, run 2 separate 5 piece sets that are not just sets to provide these buffs that add even more damage to their builds.

Truthfully, a good two bar PVP build has around 3-4 damage skills, 1-2 heals, and 4-5 buff skills. You see how, once eliminating the need to run 4-5 buff skills, you also eliminate the need to run a back bar. And then the ring boosts your damage even more on top of that.

Following up on this, I've posted this before, but it really shows how the "only get 5 skills" argument isn't really a punishment:

My 2 bar sorc: Harness Mag, Hardened Ward, Dark Conversion, Boundless, Radiating Regen, Curse, Frags, Streak, Fury, Crushing Shock, Shooting Star, Restro Ult

My 1 bar sorc: Matriarch, Crushing Shock, Fury, Curse, Streak, Shooting Star

So, the ring kind of forces me to drop shields, but shields have been wildly underwhelming, so not too bad. Plus, with the right sets, the Matriarch heal is crazy, and you can just as easily go 20-0 using matriarch in a fight as you can using shields.

The ring gives armor buff, so no need for Boundless. Plus, with streak, no real need for expedition. Matriarch gives healing, so no need for radiating. Dark Conversion isn't necessary because the ring give minor recoveries, and I don't have do spend resources keeping my buffs up. This means I now save stam for dodge and break free rather than spending it to get mag back.

So I am still left with my primary burst combo, that hits way harder (due to a ton of buffs I literally never had access to with the 2 bar build), an Ult that is ready quicker, a strong heal that I was already flexing in place of shields to begin with. And I lose, a defensive Ult that I only used situationally anyways. And I also don't have to worry about bar swap lag.

There are practically no downsides to this ring when you actually build right.

Matriarch alone is not enough to keep you alive you need a Hot running or a Shield to act as a Hot.

Entirely false. Matriarch is more than enough. Like, the build I listed is literally a build I am running with success.

As a solo player, unless your bursting one guy and running away, or relying on cross heals from people around you, you can't stay in the fight with that setup, its dps heavy. I've killed 2 Sorcs yesterday in 1v1's trying it.

Even if you were right that it isn't viable, a very, very simple change would be to remove fury and run vigor. Then probably run Powerful Assault and Rallying Cry, and still be stronger than any two bar setup.

That could work given the strength the mythic provides, but you'd lose the burst combo of curse/mages wrath and your execute. The sheer pressure could make it work though, but you'd really have to keep the pressure up, time the ult and streak for execute.

Good chat Jaws, I'm out. I got a game to play. 8-) I still like the idea of dropping one buff per person in the group.

jaws343

As for Warden and Necro 1 bar builds. I just watched an insanely viable bashcro build using 1 bar.

And for Mag Warden, I'd probably run something like:

Wild Guardian (pretty much a spammable execute with the ult return), Vigor, Deep Fissure, Deceptive Predator, Ele Weapon (or Crushing Shock, ele gives a shield and an extra bit of damage proc, crushing gives spell pen on the skill and interrupt), Fetcher Infection.

And then, I would probably pair the Warden setup with two proc sets. Not sure which two, would have to think on that. But that skill setup would be solid with the ring on one bar. And you lose pretty much nothing outside of a little mag regen from netch and the purge from netch (which was more likely to kill you due to plague break anyways).

Duke_Falcon

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Please show me, in a group of 4, how everyone in the group can get every buff on this ring, with 100% uptime, in a BG. And then also, with all of these buffs, run 2 separate 5 piece sets that are not just sets to provide these buffs that add even more damage to their builds.

Truthfully, a good two bar PVP build has around 3-4 damage skills, 1-2 heals, and 4-5 buff skills. You see how, once eliminating the need to run 4-5 buff skills, you also eliminate the need to run a back bar. And then the ring boosts your damage even more on top of that.

Cyrodil groups are 12 man groups, it can be done easily in Cyrodil. I think it can be done with sets, skills and potions in a 4 man group even, just think about it, but it would really really have to be optimized. Again same solution for each person in the group drop one buff off of the mythic.

So, the solution to competing with 1 ring, that takes up 1 gear slot, is to run a 12 man, fully optimized group.

Got it, you are saying the ring is as powerful as a fully optimized 12 man, and somehow that isn't strong.

Okay, one more comment brotha, its not as powerful as a 12 man or 4 man group, we both know this.

I've not fought any 1v1's that I think are ridiculously broken with it. I have fought some 4-6 man groups running it and sometimes I pick one off sometimes I don't. I 1v3'd a group of less experienced guys yesterday while running it. I've done all that same stuff while running the Markyn Ring and the Torc and using 2 bars.

While I will admit I enjoy the ease of not bar swapping, and it might be slightly stronger on some niche builds, it does feel comparable to the power the Markyn & Torc can provide. I had to build around the one bar to make it work, and even then its tough for me to get the executes sometimes because I can't run one on my bar.

NordSwordnBoard

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

also with 2 bars you have access to 2 sets of poisons or enchants (infused wep.power = 425, almost equal to magor curage)

You mean "almost equal" if you had 100% uptime on your weapon enchantment or poison. The ring will be changed, and there is great potential for it to be toned down reasonably, possibly one buff at a time towards a more equal power budget. Lopsided power budgets are OK to boost sales, but they won't be permanent. All the previous mythics with a fraction of the power offered by Oaken got nerfed, so the precedent is already set for this thing. I hope they don't wreck it for PvE applications, when things like slayer bonus does not apply in PvP.

lPeacekeeperl

jaws343 wrote: »

No class should ever be adjusted because of a gear piece.

Seems like you dind't read or dont get the point. classes should be afdgastet not besause of some set, but because of their unfair adwantage.

lPeacekeeperl

jaws343 wrote: »

As for Warden and Necro 1 bar builds. I just watched an insanely viable bashcro build using 1 bar.

And for Mag Warden, I'd probably run something like:

Wild Guardian (pretty much a spammable execute with the ult return), Vigor, Deep Fissure, Deceptive Predator, Ele Weapon (or Crushing Shock, ele gives a shield and an extra bit of damage proc, crushing gives spell pen on the skill and interrupt), Fetcher Infection.

And then, I would probably pair the Warden setup with two proc sets. Not sure which two, would have to think on that. But that skill setup would be solid with the ring on one bar. And you lose pretty much nothing outside of a little mag regen from netch and the purge from netch (which was more likely to kill you due to plague break anyways).

So
Wild Guardian - class ability (i'm realy curious how this look as spsmsble. from my ext bear in pvp - useles at all)
Deep Fissure - class
Deceptive Predator - class. (why not psijic race? breaking roots sounds stronger then minor evasion)
3(4) more - from common ckills. (and warden have almost none of passives not attached to class skills)

Bashcro - again, probably not from class skills.

Dont this seems wierd? Some classes have all tools, others have to adapt by using much weaker "common" versions?
Some classes can abuse all of ring bufs (like 100%crit chance from NB, or toxic-ult with continuous ult point regen from DKs) and others cannot. DKs ultimate will be too strong and too cheap even without ring.


And again, common bufs and limit of skillslots shows disbalance, not make them.

And one additional moment on DKs. with 2 bar they can easy fit fragmented shield, which gives them major mending - +16% to heal and selfheal(and gives this on any cast, without other requirements).

jaws343

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

As for Warden and Necro 1 bar builds. I just watched an insanely viable bashcro build using 1 bar.

And for Mag Warden, I'd probably run something like:

Wild Guardian (pretty much a spammable execute with the ult return), Vigor, Deep Fissure, Deceptive Predator, Ele Weapon (or Crushing Shock, ele gives a shield and an extra bit of damage proc, crushing gives spell pen on the skill and interrupt), Fetcher Infection.

And then, I would probably pair the Warden setup with two proc sets. Not sure which two, would have to think on that. But that skill setup would be solid with the ring on one bar. And you lose pretty much nothing outside of a little mag regen from netch and the purge from netch (which was more likely to kill you due to plague break anyways).

So
Wild Guardian - class ability (i'm realy curious how this look as spsmsble. from my ext bear in pvp - useles at all)
Deep Fissure - class
Deceptive Predator - class. (why not psijic race? breaking roots sounds stronger then minor evasion)
3(4) more - from common ckills. (and warden have almost none of passives not attached to class skills)

Bashcro - again, probably not from class skills.

Dont this seems wierd? Some classes have all tools, others have to adapt by using much weaker "common" versions?
Some classes can abuse all of ring bufs (like 100%crit chance from NB, or toxic-ult with continuous ult point regen from DKs) and others cannot. DKs ultimate will be too strong and too cheap even without ring.


And again, common bufs and limit of skillslots shows disbalance, not make them.

And one additional moment on DKs. with 2 bar they can easy fit fragmented shield, which gives them major mending - +16% to heal and selfheal(and gives this on any cast, without other requirements).

Every build I have proposed around Oaken soul includes mostly class skills, with a few flex options due to preference. Every class has the tooltip to make a proper build.

But also, you specifically called out Warden and Necro as not being possible, and I showed you how it was.

And yeah, necro's synergize well with bash and their ultimate. Paired with really strong defensive skills that you can get away with stacking because of the ring. I can easily put together a 1 bar necro build that doesn't rely on bash, and only uses necro skills.

As to why Deceptive Predator instead of RAT, lots of aoe damage, so evasion is solid, and having an animal skill slotted gives you more weapon/spell damage.

jaws343

But, for the sake of argument, a really rough necro 1 bar combo, also not sure on the exact sets I would pair here. Could see maybe Kynmarcher or Trickery fitting for some solid debufs

Pestilent Colossus (Animate Blastbones flex here with the added ult gen it could work in cyrodil for revives and damage)
Stalking Blastbones
Skeletal Archer
Hungry Scythe
Intensive Mender
Vigor (could probably flex this in with another Necro healing skill, but vigor is just too good as a single target HOT to not run it in a one bar build)

FangOfTheTwoMoons

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

No class should ever be adjusted because of a gear piece.

Seems like you dind't read or dont get the point. classes should be afdgastet not besause of some set, but because of their unfair adwantage.

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic. The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Except plenty of people have already proved its viable solo. I could see this argument being made pre-release, but it's simply not the case at this point.

When you say "a good group can get all those buffs," you mean for less than 100% uptime right? Cause it's never been possible to have all those buffs with 100% uptime until now.

jaws343

Also, in regards to Major mending. So what? Not every build uses major mending or even has adequate access to it. It's more of a crutch for DKs, and entirely not needed with the amount of ult gen a 1 bar build can build into without penalty paired with battle roar.

lPeacekeeperl

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic.

Adjusting is adjusting. Triyng to fix something in one aspect while ignoring others lead us to exact curent situation.
I'll repeat: some classes have much more effective skillset in pvp then other classes.
Even if you get rid of ring in PVP this still will be major factor.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

So basicly you saying - "yes there is op classes, dont nerf them, nerf ring".
And nerfing - not only one way. "buffing" weaker classes or giving toolset to play around problematic skills is valid option.


And tolking about nerfs, is there some PVE situation when DK only choice is "toxic-armor-ult" ? i can't imagine reasons to ult wich gives you almost immortality in most comfortable form of limiting incoming dmg. and at the same time gives you strongest ofensive potentioal by ignoring all enemy defence. Some part of this should be just eliminated. or price should be much higher, like 350-400, not 200

FangOfTheTwoMoons

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic.

Adjusting is adjusting. Triyng to fix something in one aspect while ignoring others lead us to exact curent situation.
I'll repeat: some classes have much more effective skillset in pvp then other classes.
Even if you get rid of ring in PVP this still will be major factor.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

So basicly you saying - "yes there is op classes, dont nerf them, nerf ring".
And nerfing - not only one way. "buffing" weaker classes or giving toolset to play around problematic skills is valid option.


And tolking about nerfs, is there some PVE situation when DK only choice is "toxic-armor-ult" ? i can't imagine reasons to ult wich gives you almost immortality in most comfortable form of limiting incoming dmg. and at the same time gives you strongest ofensive potentioal by ignoring all enemy defence. Some part of this should be just eliminated. or price should be much higher, like 350-400, not 200

"Adjusting is adjusting," is a gross understatement when talking about balance. Balancing gear and classes are two totally different things.

I never said not to nerf overperforming classes. I even said it was, "a differnt issue."

You conveniently didn't bold the part where I said "Exacerbates". The ring makes overperforming kits even better. Adjust the ring, then you adjust the classes after.

Duke_Falcon

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

No class should ever be adjusted because of a gear piece.

Seems like you dind't read or dont get the point. classes should be afdgastet not besause of some set, but because of their unfair adwantage.

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic. The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Except plenty of people have already proved its viable solo. I could see this argument being made pre-release, but it's simply not the case at this point.

When you say "a good group can get all those buffs," you mean for less than 100% uptime right? Cause it's never been possible to have all those buffs with 100% uptime until now.

You don't need all those buffs for 100% uptime in pvp. Some you just need for pushes on enemy positions, some you just need when positioning your group and healing.

Duke_Falcon

jaws343 wrote: »

Also, in regards to Major mending. So what? Not every build uses major mending or even has adequate access to it. It's more of a crutch for DKs, and entirely not needed with the amount of ult gen a 1 bar build can build into without penalty paired with battle roar.

Not sure the context for the Major Mending comment, so I might be out of line with my following comment, but....

Resto Heavy Attack, Major Mending. Easy Peasy for a Healer in a group.

Duke_Falcon

A potently change that doesn't make the Ring Obsolete, could be dropping one buff off the ring for each person in group.

I like the Mythic especially for solo play in pvp, where in the middle of fighting zergs bar swapping can be a death sentence. Not being grouped your already at a great disadvantage.

I think its overkill for group pvp play, because it lets groups crutch on the mythic, when players are already crutching, because they are in a group, receiving buffs, heals, and stacking damage from other players passively and actively.

Keeping this in mind, having the Mythic drop one buff off for each player in the party might be a balanced application for the mythic.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

No class should ever be adjusted because of a gear piece.

Seems like you dind't read or dont get the point. classes should be afdgastet not besause of some set, but because of their unfair adwantage.

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic. The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Except plenty of people have already proved its viable solo. I could see this argument being made pre-release, but it's simply not the case at this point.

When you say "a good group can get all those buffs," you mean for less than 100% uptime right? Cause it's never been possible to have all those buffs with 100% uptime until now.

You don't need all those buffs for 100% uptime in pvp. Some you just need for pushes on enemy positions, some you just need when positioning your group and healing.

You don't think having to recast buffs during combat isn't an advantage? You don't need to have them up 100% of the time, but having them up 100% of the time will always be better in ever single scenario. Offensively or defensively.

I agree that applying buffs before a burst is an integral skill of a good PvPer, but the fact is oakensoul eliminates that part of gameplay.

My responses are coming from the view of a solo player since i really think thats where the issues are. I can't speak on groups in PvP since I don't play in large groups but the impact it's having in BGs, IC, and small scale fights in Cyrodiil is obvious. Making it lose a buff for every teammate in the group wouldn't work. A lot of people are running in a zerg solo or ganking with it. BGs is full of people using it; Corrosive DKs and Bow Sorcs dominating like never before.

It honestly feels like you're nerfing yourself if you're not using it. Which is a hilarious thought considering it was never supposed to be better than a 2 bar build.

Wuuffyy

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The Mythic is fine. You only get 5 skills to use. Unless your running in a group it is very difficult to make a viable build to solo with. If your running in a group, get good, because a good group can get all those buffs and still have access to 10 skills on their bars. I'm guessing the people complaining are the ones running in groups that are not optimized.

Here's a fix for each person in the group lose one buff.

Please show me, in a group of 4, how everyone in the group can get every buff on this ring, with 100% uptime, in a BG. And then also, with all of these buffs, run 2 separate 5 piece sets that are not just sets to provide these buffs that add even more damage to their builds.

Truthfully, a good two bar PVP build has around 3-4 damage skills, 1-2 heals, and 4-5 buff skills. You see how, once eliminating the need to run 4-5 buff skills, you also eliminate the need to run a back bar. And then the ring boosts your damage even more on top of that.

Following up on this, I've posted this before, but it really shows how the "only get 5 skills" argument isn't really a punishment:

My 2 bar sorc: Harness Mag, Hardened Ward, Dark Conversion, Boundless, Radiating Regen, Curse, Frags, Streak, Fury, Crushing Shock, Shooting Star, Restro Ult

My 1 bar sorc: Matriarch, Crushing Shock, Fury, Curse, Streak, Shooting Star

So, the ring kind of forces me to drop shields, but shields have been wildly underwhelming, so not too bad. Plus, with the right sets, the Matriarch heal is crazy, and you can just as easily go 20-0 using matriarch in a fight as you can using shields.

The ring gives armor buff, so no need for Boundless. Plus, with streak, no real need for expedition. Matriarch gives healing, so no need for radiating. Dark Conversion isn't necessary because the ring give minor recoveries, and I don't have do spend resources keeping my buffs up. This means I now save stam for dodge and break free rather than spending it to get mag back.

So I am still left with my primary burst combo, that hits way harder (due to a ton of buffs I literally never had access to with the 2 bar build), an Ult that is ready quicker, a strong heal that I was already flexing in place of shields to begin with. And I lose, a defensive Ult that I only used situationally anyways. And I also don't have to worry about bar swap lag.

There are practically no downsides to this ring when you actually build right.

Matriarch alone is not enough to keep you alive you need a Hot running or a Shield to act as a Hot.

Entirely false. Matriarch is more than enough. Like, the build I listed is literally a build I am running with success.

As a solo player, unless your bursting one guy and running away, or relying on cross heals from people around you, you can't stay in the fight with that setup, its dps heavy. I've killed 2 Sorcs yesterday in 1v1's trying it.

Even if you were right that it isn't viable, a very, very simple change would be to remove fury and run vigor. Then probably run Powerful Assault and Rallying Cry, and still be stronger than any two bar setup.

In combat, and cooldown on corrosive beyond ult timer. Problems solved

Wuuffyy

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

Best solution I can think of for the Mythic if there needs to be a fix is to drop one buff off the Mythic for each person in a group. Let each person coming to the group bring something of value to the group.

Good idea also! Only while in pvp though. It’s intended in pve

Wuuffyy

Lailaamell wrote: »

I feel like game would be better balanced if thet disabled mythics in pvp

Yea. I think removing build diversity and stifling creativity is never a good idea…

ccfeeling

Feel like I don't use ring, but you cant use it

lPeacekeeperl

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic.

Adjusting is adjusting. Triyng to fix something in one aspect while ignoring others lead us to exact curent situation.
I'll repeat: some classes have much more effective skillset in pvp then other classes.
Even if you get rid of ring in PVP this still will be major factor.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

So basicly you saying - "yes there is op classes, dont nerf them, nerf ring".
And nerfing - not only one way. "buffing" weaker classes or giving toolset to play around problematic skills is valid option.


And tolking about nerfs, is there some PVE situation when DK only choice is "toxic-armor-ult" ? i can't imagine reasons to ult wich gives you almost immortality in most comfortable form of limiting incoming dmg. and at the same time gives you strongest ofensive potentioal by ignoring all enemy defence. Some part of this should be just eliminated. or price should be much higher, like 350-400, not 200

"Adjusting is adjusting," is a gross understatement when talking about balance. Balancing gear and classes are two totally different things.

I never said not to nerf overperforming classes. I even said it was, "a differnt issue."

Right. You said "doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic"
Is there such thig as "two kind of balance"? I dont think so. Balance is one uneversal conception and every part of the game have some impact on it. Tolking about balance in one aspect and forgeting about others is pointless. Do you see how many thread about "net ring in pve" ? there is none! Why? because pvp was forgoten in balansing this ring. So now you think is a good idea balancing ring and forgot about class balance. nace way to next disaster.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

You conveniently didn't bold the part where I said "Exacerbates". The ring makes overperforming kits even better. Adjust the ring, then you adjust the classes after.

Can you explain the reasons, why you think this is correct order of fixes?
I dont see need to fix the ring in situation when you and your opponent have one. You both got exact same buffs and limitations. So from this perspective ring is already perfectly balanced. So, again, why we should fix ring first?

FangOfTheTwoMoons

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Adjusting classes is a completely different issue that doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic.

Adjusting is adjusting. Triyng to fix something in one aspect while ignoring others lead us to exact curent situation.
I'll repeat: some classes have much more effective skillset in pvp then other classes.
Even if you get rid of ring in PVP this still will be major factor.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

The ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues but that does not mean they need to be nerfed hard because of it.

So basicly you saying - "yes there is op classes, dont nerf them, nerf ring".
And nerfing - not only one way. "buffing" weaker classes or giving toolset to play around problematic skills is valid option.


And tolking about nerfs, is there some PVE situation when DK only choice is "toxic-armor-ult" ? i can't imagine reasons to ult wich gives you almost immortality in most comfortable form of limiting incoming dmg. and at the same time gives you strongest ofensive potentioal by ignoring all enemy defence. Some part of this should be just eliminated. or price should be much higher, like 350-400, not 200

"Adjusting is adjusting," is a gross understatement when talking about balance. Balancing gear and classes are two totally different things.

I never said not to nerf overperforming classes. I even said it was, "a differnt issue."

Right. You said "doesn't need to be brought up when discussing this Mythic"
Is there such thig as "two kind of balance"? I dont think so. Balance is one uneversal conception and every part of the game have some impact on it. Tolking about balance in one aspect and forgeting about others is pointless. Do you see how many thread about "net ring in pve" ? there is none! Why? because pvp was forgoten in balansing this ring. So now you think is a good idea balancing ring and forgot about class balance. nace way to next disaster.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

You conveniently didn't bold the part where I said "Exacerbates". The ring makes overperforming kits even better. Adjust the ring, then you adjust the classes after.

Can you explain the reasons, why you think this is correct order of fixes?
I dont see need to fix the ring in situation when you and your opponent have one. You both got exact same buffs and limitations. So from this perspective ring is already perfectly balanced. So, again, why we should fix ring first?

I don't claim to be a game dev, but it makes sense that they're separate discussions. If you balance a class around a single item, the class will become dependent on using said item because now you've created an environment where wearing a piece of gear makes the class "balanced" and not wearing it puts you at a disadvantage. From a development standpoint it also sounds easier to balance a singular overperforming item than having to adjust 6 classes around it.

You're also making the assumption everyone is wearing Okensoul. It sounds like your idea of a balanced environment is everyone wearing the same gear which is a flawed argument. If people are forced to run it because it just that good, or have to change builds entirely to defend against a single piece of gear, that becomes the definition of overcentralized. Which is never healthy to the meta of any game because it basically kills build diversity.

And do not assume I said to forget class balance cause I literally said to adjust them after Oakensoul.

lPeacekeeperl

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

I don't claim to be a game dev, but it makes sense that they're separate discussions. If you balance a class around a single item, the class will become dependent on using said item because now you've created an environment where wearing a piece of gear makes the class "balanced" and not wearing it puts you at a disadvantage. From a development standpoint it also sounds easier to balance a singular overperforming item than having to adjust 6 classes around it.

You're also making the assumption everyone is wearing Okensoul. It sounds like your idea of a balanced environment is everyone wearing the same gear which is a flawed argument. If people are forced to run it because it just that good, or have to change builds entirely to defend against a single piece of gear, that becomes the definition of overcentralized. Which is never healthy to the meta of any game because it basically kills build diversity.

And do not assume I said to forget class balance cause I literally said to adjust them after Oakensoul.

When did you find statement "balance classes aroun ring"? And Isn't this your own words "ring exacerbates a lot of existing issues" ?
My statement is: ring is fine, some classes are op in pvp.And I'll explain again, on exapmle:
DK overpowers any other class in bot situatins: when DK and his opponent run with ring, or they both run without ring. So if adding ring to equasion changes nothing - it look like problem not in the ring.
Only in sitaution when ClassA == ClassB(or ClassA<ClassB) but ClassA + Ring > ClassB + Ring we can discuss about ring problem. ( > < means "stronger" or "weaker" respectively)

Can you show this kind of disbalance?

TechMaybeHic

2 things are a must nerf on the ring.

Major Heroism because its not just DKs but other defensive ults and healing ults being run with huge uptime. Really not sure why in singling those out other than cost usually prohibited how often they were used before, but offensive ults are also up an extreme amount.

Major force is too much when there are some mechanics that guarantee a crit especially from stealth.

I don't care if it's removal or replace with something else. Just need to go. I'd like it if they start with that and then CONTINUE to evaluate to not leave it too strong or too weak. They seem to touch once then ignore (see Dark Convergence)

NordSwordnBoard

I still have yet to see a pve player demonstrate how removing major Heroism would cripple their pve build. Slayer could be a replacement if you did really need something to help keep this item's power budget over the top.

StarOfElyon

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

A lot of players say that getting rid of Major Heroism and Major Force is the way forward.
I would argue the reverse. Getting rid of Major Heroism is removing its main selling point. I would keep Major Heroism and nerf some of the other bonuses instead.

I would recommend this:

Keep: Major Heroism, Major Protection, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Resolve, Major Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance

Remove: Berserk, Sorcery, Brutality and Force.

Try this and test, if it’s still OP we can go from there. But hit it with the nerf bat too hard and it will end up in the trash pile.

So you like healers spamming healing ultimates and DKs spamming corrosive armor. Ok. That sounds balanced.

MindOfTheSwarm

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

A lot of players say that getting rid of Major Heroism and Major Force is the way forward.
I would argue the reverse. Getting rid of Major Heroism is removing its main selling point. I would keep Major Heroism and nerf some of the other bonuses instead.

I would recommend this:

Keep: Major Heroism, Major Protection, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Resolve, Major Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance

Remove: Berserk, Sorcery, Brutality and Force.

Try this and test, if it’s still OP we can go from there. But hit it with the nerf bat too hard and it will end up in the trash pile.

So you like healers spamming healing ultimates and DKs spamming corrosive armor. Ok. That sounds balanced.

Corrosive Armor main issue is that it can gain Ultimate while active. As for healing spammers… in my opinion they should have never have nerfed Defile as much as they did.

StarOfElyon

sharquez wrote: »

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

If 100% uptime on major heroism doesn't do it for you? Nothing will.