How can we fix Oakensoul without making it obsolete?

Urzigurumash

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Don't nerf it, but raise accessibility to major force, prot, berserk, and heroism through back bar skills.

It's those three buffs that make it out of pocket. Either lower them to minor buffs, or increase access outside of the ring and boom! problem solved.

@DrNukenstein , what do you think about the idea that giving access to Major Force, Major Berserk, and Major Courage at the expense of having the option of a turtle backbar has finally resolved the long-standing issue people have that "tanks can deal as much damage as DDs"?

Because now, definitively, they cannot. Yes there are other issues with this ring, yes some Ultimates violate this possible "balance", yes you can do some SnB/Frost Staff/Resto Oakensoul builds, but, it's an interesting point.

So just giving everybody access to Berserk and Force without sacrificing the option to turtle up on a defensive backbar would be a regression on this point.

Not that I ever completely subscribed to the idea that there should be some "trinity" in PvP. I'm a proud Tanklet and this ring has reminded me just how hard I crutch on SnB, I can barely play with this ring.

The way to reconcile your idea with this one I guess would be that you cannot get this theoretical backbarred Major Force/Berserk/Courage/etc. with a Resto/Frost/SnB equipped, or something like that.

WrathOfInnos

MentalxHammer wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

The same way steroids ruin athletic competition. It’s a way to circumvent the hard work needed to become a strong PvP player. That and obviously the 1 shot ganking builds and perma-corrosive builds are rampant and overpowered, and are enabled by this item.

Let's be honest though, athletic competitions would be a lot more impressive and entertaining if performance enhancing drugs were universally permitted. They are banned to protect the players, but that is not something we need to worry about in a video game. Originally ESO had many powerful and fun tools, that slowly have been reduced to bland and generic over the years. It is possible to achieve balance without making everything feel weak.

Mazbt

I think it's fine as is. Just leave it the status quo, at least for now. You sacrifice a backbar.....that makes builds limiting and very specific. Out of habit, people will probably try to swap bars and get nothing. Plus, it's not like its an easy to get easy dungeon set. Takes a bit of effort to obtain, that alone means it should be strong.

Edit: I just saw a Deltia's video pertaining to this set and he said it was stronger on the PTS even.

Stx

You have to leave brutality/savagery on it, otherwise it would feel horrible to use because you only have 5 slots and still needing basic buffs would reduce choice even more, or force you into specific potions.

The main balance issue is clearly major heroism. And it sucks, because this buff is what makes this item fun. It opens up ridiculously fun builds like multiple storm atro sorcerers and Permanent corrosive armor DKs. My NB can keep a huge uptime on incap strike 20% damage bonus.

I hate it when developers nerf something that is fun, but I think it's very clear that major heroism is causing these massive imbalances in pvp.

If I had to make this ring viable but not imbalanced.. I would remove all the major buffs other than resolve/brutality/savagery. Then I would add four procs to the ring...
1) Hitting with a single target direct damage ability procs a dot for X damage over 6 seconds.
2) Healing with a single target ability heals the target for X over 6 seconds.
3) Dealing damage with a direct aoe attack applies major breach to all targets for X seconds.
4) Dealing damage with any aoe ability drops a stationary aoe effect that deals X damage over 10 seconds.

The entire point of this ring is to make one bar builds viable, and to do that you need to make up for missing backbar abilities, and buff abilities. I think procs would do that, and you can give them cool nature themed names or animations too so this ring has some flavor.

El_Borracho

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

Imagine as an example. You have one shot mechanics in PvE and hate it. What if an update made something to where those are suddenly seen in every fight.
No new content; it just shows up in same content you have been doing for year's. Would you be ok with that and want to just deal with it?

You mean like one-shot add mechanics on add mobs in Kyne's Aegis? On normal? Like those? They definitely wouldn't do that again. Like in Rockgrove.

If they made mudcrabs that way, sure, that's problematic. But Oakensoul doesn't turn noob PVPers into unbeatable war machines. I've heard this same argument over and over and over again. And it happens with every single update and new gear item. Like with Werewolf + Crimson Twilight, as I mentioned earlier. And after both were cut off at the knees, the complaining turned to another "game breaking mistake."

Funny thing is, PVE players are the ones who deal with it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to enjoy playing with my stam sorc and crystal weapon until a PVPer calls for its demise. Used to be a mag DK, but apparently that class murdered too many in Cyrodiil earlier this year.

Kalitas

jecks33 wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

the problem with it is PVP related.

The problem in Eso IS pvp... anyway I agree with you, just disable it in PVP area's.

The problem is not PVP. [snip] PVP is what keeps this game interesting at all for endgame. Just disable some or all of the rings effects when you have battle spirit active. This is killing PVP. Buff the ring in PVE for all I care. Please just balance it in PVP. A lot of players I know have came back to the game recently for the fixed PVP servers, the absolutely terrible meta of this patch is driving a lot of them away already.

[edited for baiting]

Kalitas

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

Damage has skyrocketed in PVE. The PVE side of this game is easier than it has ever been. Oakensoul is an accessibility mythic. I understand people that have disabilities loving it because it allows them to complete more difficult content. I don't understand it for other players. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

NordSwordnBoard

El_Borracho wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

Imagine as an example. You have one shot mechanics in PvE and hate it. What if an update made something to where those are suddenly seen in every fight.
No new content; it just shows up in same content you have been doing for year's. Would you be ok with that and want to just deal with it?

You mean like one-shot add mechanics on add mobs in Kyne's Aegis? On normal? Like those? They definitely wouldn't do that again. Like in Rockgrove.

If they made mudcrabs that way, sure, that's problematic. But Oakensoul doesn't turn noob PVPers into unbeatable war machines. I've heard this same argument over and over and over again. And it happens with every single update and new gear item. Like with Werewolf + Crimson Twilight, as I mentioned earlier. And after both were cut off at the knees, the complaining turned to another "game breaking mistake."

Funny thing is, PVE players are the ones who deal with it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to enjoy playing with my stam sorc and crystal weapon until a PVPer calls for its demise. Used to be a mag DK, but apparently that class murdered too many in Cyrodiil earlier this year.

I'm a PvPer who would like to change the ring so that it gets minor/major slayer type buffs, that would continue to buff the PvE players without adversely affecting PvP. Would you trade Heroism for Slayer? Is Major Heroism an integral part of your PvE build being successful now that you have Oakensoul?

DrNukenstein

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Don't nerf it, but raise accessibility to major force, prot, berserk, and heroism through back bar skills.

It's those three buffs that make it out of pocket. Either lower them to minor buffs, or increase access outside of the ring and boom! problem solved.

@DrNukenstein , what do you think about the idea that giving access to Major Force, Major Berserk, and Major Courage at the expense of having the option of a turtle backbar has finally resolved the long-standing issue people have that "tanks can deal as much damage as DDs"?

Because now, definitively, they cannot. Yes there are other issues with this ring, yes some Ultimates violate this possible "balance", yes you can do some SnB/Frost Staff/Resto Oakensoul builds, but, it's an interesting point.

So just giving everybody access to Berserk and Force without sacrificing the option to turtle up on a defensive backbar would be a regression on this point.

Not that I ever completely subscribed to the idea that there should be some "trinity" in PvP. I'm a proud Tanklet and this ring has reminded me just how hard I crutch on SnB, I can barely play with this ring.

The way to reconcile your idea with this one I guess would be that you cannot get this theoretical backbarred Major Force/Berserk/Courage/etc. with a Resto/Frost/SnB equipped, or something like that.

@Urzigurumash

I think it's more about the skills and traits you put on the back bar than the weapon type itself. The one they can easily control is the skills. The buffs can be tied to skills in a way that for example if you want that major force that's now on the table, you would need to sacrifice your source of evasion or major expedition, or that extra team hot. Maybe some of these skills could be tied to trees where you want the same number of skills on both bars (trees that give %bonus stats for example). And if there's room to tie a particular OP buff to a particular back bar weapon type, then I think that adds to the depth of build choice. There's already a precedent with rally/momentum

WrathOfInnos

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

How about this: keep it the same and just deal with in in PVP. The same way PVE-heavy players have to deal with every single nerf and change due to PVP. "Crimson Twilight is OP." "A werewolf killed me again." "Elf Bane and Zaan is unfair." Heck, 2 weeks ago you would have thought being a stam sorc in Cyrodiil was god mode. Enough already.

Oakensoul is a great mythic and one that works extraordinarily well in PVE content like VMA. It does not need to be changed. I think its fair to say that most PVE and a lot of PVP players really don't care if its OP in PVP. And everyone knows that if they nerf Oakensoul to meet the demands of the vocal minority, that same minority will move on to complaining about something else.

Imagine as an example. You have one shot mechanics in PvE and hate it. What if an update made something to where those are suddenly seen in every fight.
No new content; it just shows up in same content you have been doing for year's. Would you be ok with that and want to just deal with it?

You mean like one-shot add mechanics on add mobs in Kyne's Aegis? On normal? Like those? They definitely wouldn't do that again. Like in Rockgrove.

If they made mudcrabs that way, sure, that's problematic. But Oakensoul doesn't turn noob PVPers into unbeatable war machines. I've heard this same argument over and over and over again. And it happens with every single update and new gear item. Like with Werewolf + Crimson Twilight, as I mentioned earlier. And after both were cut off at the knees, the complaining turned to another "game breaking mistake."

Funny thing is, PVE players are the ones who deal with it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to enjoy playing with my stam sorc and crystal weapon until a PVPer calls for its demise. Used to be a mag DK, but apparently that class murdered too many in Cyrodiil earlier this year.

I'm a PvPer who would like to change the ring so that it gets minor/major slayer type buffs, that would continue to buff the PvE players without adversely affecting PvP. Would you trade Heroism for Slayer? Is Major Heroism an integral part of your PvE build being successful now that you have Oakensoul?

I like where you're going with this. Major Slayer could be a good choice, replacing Major Berserk and allowing it to be used along with with Kinras in PVE. That would be a moderate damage nerf in PVP, but Oakensoul is arguably more powerful in PVP than PVE currently (because buffs like Major Protection and anything that can be obtained from potions are more meaningful there).

I don't think Major Heroism should be removed though, it is the most unique part of the ring and a fitting compensation for only having access to one ultimate. I'm also mot sure Minor Slayer should be on Oakensoul since that would make it redundant with any trial set (could be interesting, but removes a lot of build options).

ccfeeling

Zos should listen pvp players feedbacd again.

We cant wait the new nerf waves.

IZZEFlameLash

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If they remove Heroism or any other major buffs, it isn't worth slotting something that limits you to one bar. Period. Only way it is currently worth it is because it provides major buffs to people that have little to no access to such buffs. If they change everything to minor, then it better have no bar restrictions to make it worth the slot. Or else it is an instant trash.

If you traded Major Heroism for Major Slayer it would be trash?

That might not be a bad thing for solo PvE play for sure.

Urzigurumash

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Don't nerf it, but raise accessibility to major force, prot, berserk, and heroism through back bar skills.

It's those three buffs that make it out of pocket. Either lower them to minor buffs, or increase access outside of the ring and boom! problem solved.

@DrNukenstein , what do you think about the idea that giving access to Major Force, Major Berserk, and Major Courage at the expense of having the option of a turtle backbar has finally resolved the long-standing issue people have that "tanks can deal as much damage as DDs"?

Because now, definitively, they cannot. Yes there are other issues with this ring, yes some Ultimates violate this possible "balance", yes you can do some SnB/Frost Staff/Resto Oakensoul builds, but, it's an interesting point.

So just giving everybody access to Berserk and Force without sacrificing the option to turtle up on a defensive backbar would be a regression on this point.

Not that I ever completely subscribed to the idea that there should be some "trinity" in PvP. I'm a proud Tanklet and this ring has reminded me just how hard I crutch on SnB, I can barely play with this ring.

The way to reconcile your idea with this one I guess would be that you cannot get this theoretical backbarred Major Force/Berserk/Courage/etc. with a Resto/Frost/SnB equipped, or something like that.

@Urzigurumash

I think it's more about the skills and traits you put on the back bar than the weapon type itself. The one they can easily control is the skills. The buffs can be tied to skills in a way that for example if you want that major force that's now on the table, you would need to sacrifice your source of evasion or major expedition, or that extra team hot. Maybe some of these skills could be tied to trees where you want the same number of skills on both bars (trees that give %bonus stats for example). And if there's room to tie a particular OP buff to a particular back bar weapon type, then I think that adds to the depth of build choice. There's already a precedent with rally/momentum

Yes, I'm all for Bow getting a source of one or more of these 3 buffs. There needs to be more reason for your average Dizzy Swinger / Spin 2 Winner to have an interest in bow backbars over SnB, to me that's been a huge driving force of the Tank Meta and I'm sure many have discussed it before - bow's weakness as a backbar in PvP. Sure, it's good in groups, where you might also have access to Major Force / Courage with no investment of your own, but for a while now for most solo / unorganized / unoptimized players, the Tanklet style has had way better returns than a Ranger style.

Of course I justify the existence of Tanklets, I am one, and I've done ok when solo with Unchained Aggressor's Major Berserk, but we simply must not have access to as strong of Offensive Buffs as True DDs, and they must not have access to as strong of Defensive Buffs as we do.

This has never been achieved to such a strong degree as it now has with Oakensoul.

So to me, let that be the takeaway, whatever happens to this ring. If this balance can be shifted to skills so that it's easily accessible to and differentiated for all specs as with Oakensoul - instead of depending on a specific group comp as prior to Oakensoul - perhaps this positive effect of Oakensoul can be preserved.

For those whose reaction to this suggestion is that these 3 buffs being easily available makes Ganking too strong - perhaps shifting the meta off SnB/Resto backbars opens up room for them to be buffed - Heavy Armor too. Things can always be further balanced, but as I've said before, while having its own issues, it appears Oakensoul has resolved one particularly tenacious, long-standing imbalance: that Tanks could effectively deal as much damage as DDs.

Artim_X

Give it the Thrassian Stranglers treatment.

All buffs are lost if you remove the Oakensoul ring, go invisible, or crouch.

Unlike Stranglers, this would still make Oakensoul strong for all content.

Hotdog_23

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If they remove Heroism or any other major buffs, it isn't worth slotting something that limits you to one bar. Period. Only way it is currently worth it is because it provides major buffs to people that have little to no access to such buffs. If they change everything to minor, then it better have no bar restrictions to make it worth the slot. Or else it is an instant trash.

If you traded Major Heroism for Major Slayer it would be trash?

That might not be a bad thing for solo PvE play for sure.

Slayer only works in Dungeons and Trials and does nothing for the rest of ESO content. Replacing Major Slayer with Major Heroism would be a big nerf overall in PVE. Believe that would go against the overall intent of the ring which I believe is an accessibility tool for some.

Stay safe

mocap

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?

PvPers don't bother with like 98% of game sets. Why Oak must be so that huge exception? And don't forget about PvE part - all that "ty for Oak ring!" happy guys. They will have what they want, without disbalancing PvP that much.

MindOfTheSwarm

mocap wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

If some buffs are easy enough to get on a two bar setup, then why bother with this ring at all?

PvPers don't bother with like 98% of game sets. Why Oak must be so that huge exception? And don't forget about PvE part - all that "ty for Oak ring!" happy guys. They will have what they want, without disbalancing PvP that much.

Because when rings like this exists it nullifies much of what ‘could’ be viable in any other setting. Oakensoul and Malacath on release are examples of items that basically force a ‘use this or lose’ state in PvP.

Fans of the ring argue that it helps to fight back vs the tank meta. This is a difficult thing to fight against as tanking usually involves high block cost reduction and high armor as opposed to high health. This makes something like Oblivion Damage not very useful outside of the rare player running some kind of Harbinger health stacking build.

However, introducing something that can melt through high defences just makes it even more important to stack those stats. This inevitably leads to other options being made redundant. Until tanking ‘requires’ high health to be viable, there won’t be an effective counter without non-tanks just getting instagibbed.

AdamLAD

How to make it not obsolete? Easy. Erase it from existence. It cannot be obsolete if it doesn't exist. Simple.

olsborg

Im taking a little much needed break from pvp atm, in hopes that soon the oaken [snip] gets nerfed or removed from pvp entirely.

[edited for profanity bypass]

jecks33

Kalitas wrote: »

The problem is not PVP. [snip] PVP is what keeps this game interesting at all for endgame. Just disable some or all of the rings effects when you have battle spirit active. This is killing PVP. Buff the ring in PVE for all I care. Please just balance it in PVP. A lot of players I know have came back to the game recently for the fixed PVP servers, the absolutely terrible meta of this patch is driving a lot of them away already.

[snip] I'm just tired of things being nerfed because 5% of players cry hard on the forums.
Pvp is not the thing that keeps eso alive, just 1 campaign on pc eu is 3-3-3, the other 3 are dead, the majority of people in cyrodiil are there just for caltrops or war horn, but for some reason 80% of complains come from pvp, just look at the "Combat & Character Mechanics" section of the forum...

Anyway you're right, balance it in pvp, I don't care how, but just leave it as it is in pve.
This game needs desperately to split pvp and pve

[edited for baiting]

lPeacekeeperl

jecks33 wrote: »

This game needs desperately to split pvp and pve

And some popular MMO even have good examples of this kind of system, there is even no need to farm "pvp sets in pve dungeons" yo- u can just grab "set" for your playstile and go pvping


And i'll repeat again to all complainers of the ring. Why so much cry on DK's or NB's ultimates/skills and not for other classes? Are you sure the ring is the problem? You sure the problem is not in wierdly overpovered for PVP (and sometimes undpowered for PVE) skills|ultimates of some classes?
And i'll rely in advance to most obvious objection"it gives to much buffs" - No it doesnt. It gives same amount of buffs to any class. But some classes/playyers can and will abuse this oportunity and others can't or won't. And only one thing in this dilema than can be solved by ZOS - is class potency to fairly utilize this opportunity.

Before argue with this, please, show me how "to much op become with ring" wardens, or necromancers(pay to win classes btw)(and this is not a joke or provocation, i have warden and i will be happy to see, how to play correctly).


And as response to discussion name - the only posible fix to ring (in pvp) without making it obsolete - fix overpowered in PVP classes (just get rid from "limit incoming dmg to 3% of your HP" from green blood and DK's become much more balanced, add to "cloak" same incremental cost mechanizm as in roll-dodge/streak and NB's will be not so scary)

TechMaybeHic

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

This game needs desperately to split pvp and pve

And some popular MMO even have good examples of this kind of system, there is even no need to farm "pvp sets in pve dungeons" yo- u can just grab "set" for your playstile and go pvping


And i'll repeat again to all complainers of the ring. Why so much cry on DK's or NB's ultimates/skills and not for other classes? Are you sure the ring is the problem? You sure the problem is not in wierdly overpovered for PVP (and sometimes undpowered for PVE) skills|ultimates of some classes?
And i'll rely in advance to most obvious objection"it gives to much buffs" - No it doesnt. It gives same amount of buffs to any class. But some classes/playyers can and will abuse this oportunity and others can't or won't. And only one thing in this dilema than can be solved by ZOS - is class potency to fairly utilize this opportunity.

Before argue with this, please, show me how "to much op become with ring" wardens, or necromancers(pay to win classes btw)(and this is not a joke or provocation, i have warden and i will be happy to see, how to play correctly).


And as response to discussion name - the only posible fix to ring (in pvp) without making it obsolete - fix overpowered in PVP classes (just get rid from "limit incoming dmg to 3% of your HP" from green blood and DK's become much more balanced, add to "cloak" same incremental cost mechanizm as in roll-dodge/streak and NB's will be not so scary)

NBA and DKs are just using abilities that were previously limited before ring. They literally had just nerfed the potential crit damage a couple updates ago on NB and thus ring flushed that. Sustsun on DKs this update nerfed, but now with ultimate always up, that's erased.

It's not just the either. Balance attempts completely whipped out by the ring and you'd wish to nerf them more to where they might wind up depending on it?

Zodiarkslayer

I am no balancing expert, but the Oakensoul Ring has become more than just a OP Ring.

It is a symbol of hope to all the players, that, for whatever reasons, cannot bar swap. For all the guys having to fight other limitations to playing ESO, including, but not limited to:

• bad internet connections
• disabilities
• the comparatively high requirements of player skill for end game content
• social awkwardness, hence preferance for SOLOing
• (Real Life and) little to no time to play and improve Player Skill

I do not think that this hope should be "nerfed", do you?

MindOfTheSwarm

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I am no balancing expert, but the Oakensoul Ring has become more than just a OP Ring.

It is a symbol of hope to all the players, that, for whatever reasons, cannot bar swap. For all the guys having to fight other limitations to playing ESO, including, but not limited to:

• bad internet connections
• disabilities
• the comparatively high requirements of player skill for end game content
• social awkwardness, hence preferance for SOLOing
• (Real Life and) little to no time to play and improve Player Skill

I do not think that this hope should be "nerfed", do you?

Not at all. But even those that bar swap do not have access to the plethora of buffs that this ring gives. Yes, single bar set up should be allowed but it should never surpass the power of a double bar set up. I don't think anyone has issues with this ring in PVE. This is a purely PvP issue. This is why I argue for Heroism to stay. Getting rid of Berserk and Force and making Brutality and Sorcery Minor would still make for a very strong ring but with its damage output brought down a bit.

The argument for Heroism removal is a redundant point as it has merely revealed how strong the buff is. As such, many players without access to the ring have found other means to get the buff. Major Heroism has always been very strong, it's just that it is popular now that is bringing so much attention to it and people are blaming the ring. Heroism isn't the issue. It's the combination of all the powerful effects together that break this ring for PVP.

Getting rid of Heroism changes nothing. People will still run the ring and get the heroism from elsewhere and voila the same output. Major Berserk and Force on the other hand are not so easy to maintain.

Zodiarkslayer

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Getting rid of Heroism changes nothing. People will still run the ring and get the heroism from elsewhere and voila the same output. Major Berserk and Force on the other hand are not so easy to maintain.

Of course, you are right. But I see the blame on the PvP side of the game. It is just so vulnerable to shifts in META. The general state it is in right now is very concerning.

A little butterfly flapping its wings in PvE can make such an earthquake in PvP. The line between PvE and PvP should be hermetic. Impenetrable.

I hope that with the backend restructure of PvP, that is promised after the Hardware Update, there will be someone brave enough to finally seperate PvE and PvP.
Otherwise, I fear this back and forth of nerfing between the two game modes will go on for ever.

jaws343

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I am no balancing expert, but the Oakensoul Ring has become more than just a OP Ring.

It is a symbol of hope to all the players, that, for whatever reasons, cannot bar swap. For all the guys having to fight other limitations to playing ESO, including, but not limited to:

• bad internet connections
• disabilities
• the comparatively high requirements of player skill for end game content
• social awkwardness, hence preferance for SOLOing
• (Real Life and) little to no time to play and improve Player Skill

I do not think that this hope should be "nerfed", do you?

Not at all. But even those that bar swap do not have access to the plethora of buffs that this ring gives. Yes, single bar set up should be allowed but it should never surpass the power of a double bar set up. I don't think anyone has issues with this ring in PVE. This is a purely PvP issue. This is why I argue for Heroism to stay. Getting rid of Berserk and Force and making Brutality and Sorcery Minor would still make for a very strong ring but with its damage output brought down a bit.

The argument for Heroism removal is a redundant point as it has merely revealed how strong the buff is. As such, many players without access to the ring have found other means to get the buff. Major Heroism has always been very strong, it's just that it is popular now that is bringing so much attention to it and people are blaming the ring. Heroism isn't the issue. It's the combination of all the powerful effects together that break this ring for PVP.

Getting rid of Heroism changes nothing. People will still run the ring and get the heroism from elsewhere and voila the same output. Major Berserk and Force on the other hand are not so easy to maintain.

The difference is the uptime on it. Other sources of Major heroism require management of it in some way, and don't guarantee 100% uptime in combat. The ring does, with no management of the buff necessary.

MindOfTheSwarm

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Getting rid of Heroism changes nothing. People will still run the ring and get the heroism from elsewhere and voila the same output. Major Berserk and Force on the other hand are not so easy to maintain.

Of course, you are right. But I see the blame on the PvP side of the game. It is just so vulnerable to shifts in META. The general state it is in right now is very concerning.

A little butterfly flapping its wings in PvE can make such an earthquake in PvP. The line between PvE and PvP should be hermetic. Impenetrable.

I hope that with the backend restructure of PvP, that is promised after the Hardware Update, there will be someone brave enough to finally seperate PvE and PvP.
Otherwise, I fear this back and forth of nerfing between the two game modes will go on for ever.

100% agree with this.

One other strategy is simply balance everything around PVP first. PVE then can be brought into balance to account for the changes in the PVP meta.

I think this might be easier as you would only have to change a few general things with enemy mobs and statistics rather than bespoke every single set and skill to account for the disparity.

But yes, it might be just easier to operate the two completely.

sharquez

MentalxHammer wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

The same way steroids ruin athletic competition. It’s a way to circumvent the hard work needed to become a strong PvP player. That and obviously the 1 shot ganking builds and perma-corrosive builds are rampant and overpowered, and are enabled by this item.

This is exactly what I mean by baseless parroting, This isn't new or informative proof that the ring is doing anything beyond enabling accessibility and stirring up feelings of entitlement and controversy from people who aren't even willing to do the minimum required thing of "show how it's ruining the game with facts and data."

It's not a banned performance enhancing substance. Nor is it circumventing the hard work needed to become a strong PVPer.
It doesn't play the game for you. You are trading 3 potential set pieces and an entire skill bar for most of the buffs in the game.

For many this helps them play without rotating through two bars to keep their buffs up. For me this has injected new life into the game because I'm not struggling with pain over a session because my overall keystrokes are reduced per encounter. But I'm not here to talk about the accessibility benefit. That can be its own whole thing.

1 shot gankers didn't just show up out of nowhere they've been a part of the game forever and will continue to be in the future. If you don't want to get killed suddenly by another player don't PVP.

Corrosive has been a issue ever since its closest current iterations. It's a problem with the class being able to gain ultimate with Corrosive active which is an exception for the self buff ultimates like Overload, Vampire Form, Necro Bone Goliath, Werewolf. That corrects the uptime issue. DK was demonstrably at the top of the food chain before the ring. It's a class problem not a ring problem.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

sharquez wrote: »

Still waiting on someone to explain how its ruining PVP rather than parroting the same tired baseless accusations.

Just because you do not understand how PvP works doesn't mean they're "baseless"

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If they remove Heroism or any other major buffs, it isn't worth slotting something that limits you to one bar. Period. Only way it is currently worth it is because it provides major buffs to people that have little to no access to such buffs. If they change everything to minor, then it better have no bar restrictions to make it worth the slot. Or else it is an instant trash.

If you traded Major Heroism for Major Slayer it would be trash?

That might not be a bad thing for solo PvE play for sure.

Slayer only works in Dungeons and Trials and does nothing for the rest of ESO content. Replacing Major Slayer with Major Heroism would be a big nerf overall in PVE. Believe that would go against the overall intent of the ring which I believe is an accessibility tool for some.

Stay safe

Where do you need Herosim, Berserk, and Force? In overland content? Where things can die in 3 seconds? The slayer buffs seem to be the best comprise so far. They will help struggling players in harder content, which is Dungeons and Trails. You do not need Herosim, Force, and Berserk for overland.

kypranb14_ESO

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, and Major Heroism.

Attempted Fix:

"While under the effects of Battlespirit, Major Berserk, Major Courage, and Major Heroism are inactive."

This ring would still give the utility of an entire backbar without giving the utility of an entire team in PVP. I left Major Protection because taking less damage slows down combat and genuinely helps new players compete without giving them the trophy before the contest began. This approach also leaves PVE untouched so there is no conflict to be had there.

Essentially, this change would keep the ring viable for those who actually need it, but wouldn't push the floor into the ceiling.