Oakensoul is ruining the PVP experience, and needs to be balanced ASAP.

EF321

I came up with new solution for this whole situation without changing ring in any way:
Introduce third bar.

Wolfpaw

ncallstar88 wrote: »

LOS?

Line of Sight

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

a completely broken item & mechanic

Caluurion's or heavy attack sets enabled this before Oakensoul should be addressed on their own (maybe would solve the problem without touching Oakensoul). It's absurd that Caluurion's isn't at least on their list of "burst procs."

Mazbt

I disagree about nerfing this set. I haven't been more excited about farming/grinding for a set in years. You lose a bar and really have to specialize and optimize your set up. It's also not easy to obtain, but I guess that depends on your farming tolerance.

Dorkener

People always flock to lowest risk/low effort + high reward. Then call it "being competitive".
This is an all time low though - 6 buttons total, 1-2 to kill, gear does the rest.

Kalitas

Mazbt wrote: »

I disagree about nerfing this set. I haven't been more excited about farming/grinding for a set in years. You lose a bar and really have to specialize and optimize your set up. It's also not easy to obtain, but I guess that depends on your farming tolerance.

I’m sorry but that’s poor reasoning for balancing a clearly overpowered item. You don’t have to specialize. You just drop the skills that give you buffs. It’s very easy to farm. The ring just needs nerfed in PVP. Leave it as is in PVE. Either way, a response about this from someone at ZOS would be very appreciated.

DrSlaughtr

Mazbt wrote: »

I disagree about nerfing this set. I haven't been more excited about farming/grinding for a set in years. You lose a bar and really have to specialize and optimize your set up. It's also not easy to obtain, but I guess that depends on your farming tolerance.

They literally made it easier to get in the follow-up patch.

Theignson

I enjoy React's stream and even subscribed. But I notice he can still 1vX players and even 1v4 etc. The main difference is he can't run into a crowd of 8 or so players as easily as before, he has to LOS more and disengage, because the damage is so much higher.

The Heavy attack mDK gank and caluurion's ganks were a thing before brokensoul.

I've had some fun with the ring. It forces you to make hard choices about builds. In general, defense is weaker. But, you hit very hard, and no more buffing. I've played it on 8 build/7 of my PvP characters and here is my impression:

Brawler NB: 2 bar build is better
Stealth NB: the ring is super strong for ganking and probably too strong.
mDK: hit much harder, but much less defense than with 2 bars when Corrosive is not up. Still, a very viable build, but then mDK was strong before this also
Stam DK: it is ok, but does not rescue Stam DK from its overall redundacy in PvP these days. I tried a Master's 2H with Carve build and corrosive, some fun moments. YOu can't really run a molten whip build on StamDK without converting to magDK, with the ring...!
Stam Sorc: it is ok but the 2 bar build with savage werewolf is stronger IMO
Magplar the magplar is really strong with this ring. I think it is stronger than the Magma incarnate/markyn ring 2 bar set up, although overall less defensive capabilities and mitigation, the harder hits compensate
StamCro: I tried my bash build with ring and it wasn't to fun nor effective, probably since bash damage scale off resists
Stam Warden: It is ok but not much stronger than a 2 bar build

The game is much simplified with the ring (which has plus and minuses) and many builds work just as well or better without it. It is fun to experiment with 1 bar builds and see the limitations and try to create builds that work with only 1 bar. I don't really have strong feelings about whether it should be nerfed. I actually die much more often on 1 bar builds than I used to, partly because damage is so high and partly because of the loss of defensive aspects

WinterHeart626

Just reading through this, and all I’ve been seeing is cries to nerf down the ring.
PvP- the rings OP, yes?
All major buffs? Super good, spread the cheese thick. You will always get cheese in PvP, no matter what platform or game you play, if there’s cheese, it’s there, en masse.

Ok, let’s nerf it, it now only gives minor buffs.
Well, guess what, it’s still good, it’s still going to be there, and you’re still going to whine about it. Seriously, give it some thought. No need to keep reapplying trap, no need for camo hunter/ slime craw/ Medusa or any other set that provides minor.
You’ve still got 100% uptime on a cavalcade of buffs that add 10% rather than the 20% of the majors.

You’re still going to get ganked by one shot heavy’s.

So, let’s remove its ability to work in PvP, let the PVE crowd have their toy. You either have it, or you don’t, don’t try crying for an in between, because it’s still going to cause issues.

Bloodgroove

If the ring gets nerfed resto heal stacking needs to also be addressed. Hot stacking cross-heals is just as offensive as Oakensoul IMO. . I also think spell/weapon damage should be for damage and max stat pool for healing power. Players should have to choose. My 2 cents.

Zabagad

I'm just a normal PvP player - far from good, but my experience with the ring in the NoCP camp: (which is okish on PC EU)
I fought a player who is pretty sure better then me.
First on his 2bar templar and I had maybe 3 min and choises to escape, or fight until the end.
The same player on his oak-NB had me down 3 times in a row in less then these 3 minutes. I had no chance at all - 2 times I only saw him in the recap. Main reason - his bow-ulti was ready super fast and hit more then I ever saw on this campaign.
I didn't die 3 times in a row in less then 3 minutes in the last 2-3 years (if ever?) - there was not much L2P - no counter.

I'm not a "somebody beats me - pls nerf" whiner and I lose often enough and never complained until today.
Ofc I could start to get tankier - but that would only because of that item and I guess its the wrong way anyway.
This ring is clearly to much!
(much more then the last toy: sithis - even when it was bugged and you could still block)

The defenders would defend their new toy even if it had more buffs on it like expedition, evasion and vitality.
The same argument: we lose our 2nd bar would be valid for them - no matter how many buffs were given.
(btw: I lost my 3rd bar for much less )

So my conclusion:
The ring should stay untouched in PVE, because they "balanced" it around PvE.
The ring should minimum get rid of heroism&force in PvP - better disable it and especially in the NoCP campaign.
(good argument stolen by another user in the german forum: It provides buffs which are not even accessible in NoCP.)

ATomiX69

Mazbt wrote: »

It's also not easy to obtain, but I guess that depends on your farming tolerance.

So everything that takes more than an hour to get is "not easy to obtain", noted, thank you for your insight.

Avishag

Hexquisite wrote: »

I agree with React. Equal players , the Oakensoul wearer wins.
The person with Oakensoul NEVER has to worry about resources to keep up their buffs, they NEVER have to worry about keeping those buffs up, they don't have to worry about a window to burst DPS, and can keep constant pressure on the opponent. In open world PvP/BGs they are also free to use Tri pots or Immovables without sacrificing DPS.

I feel that the writing has been on the wall for small scalers for a few year now, and that this just really seals that. I went through the Meteor Era, The Sloads and Dot Era, and Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak and Hrothgar Era. Those all had counters, even before they got nerfed/changed/fixed.

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

Zabagad

Avishag wrote: »

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

It's not only one way - there were mythics (and other sets as well) which were nerfed because of PvE.
My memory isn't that good and I'm to lazy to research, but 2 of these 3:
Thrassian Stranglers
Wading Kilt
Pale Order
were nerfed because of PvE - pls correct me if somebody knows the details!

But your conclusion - different mythics (better all sets (and skills)) would ofc help to balance things and is a demand from a lot of player since a very long time.

MEBengalsFan2001

The biggest issue with Oakensoul buffs are that quite a few of them require an ultimate, an ability to be slotted, or a 5 piece gear set to get the bonus.

The buffs in question are Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force. These buffs provide such an advantage that it makes not using 2 bars worth using the ring.

Any player who wants to further their defensive and offensive stats would be running the oakensoult with Magma Incarnate , any 3 piece gear set, and any 5 piece gear set. This combination would make any build annoying to play against.

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

This would be a better design and IMO make the ring still usable in PVE and even PVP but it wouldn't be over the top powerful like it is right now.

Wolfpaw

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The biggest issue with Oakensoul buffs are that quite a few of them require an ultimate, an ability to be slotted, or a 5 piece gear set to get the bonus.

The buffs in question are Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force. These buffs provide such an advantage that it makes not using 2 bars worth using the ring.

Any player who wants to further their defensive and offensive stats would be running the oakensoult with Magma Incarnate , any 3 piece gear set, and any 5 piece gear set. This combination would make any build annoying to play against.

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

This would be a better design and IMO make the ring still usable in PVE and even PVP but it wouldn't be over the top powerful like it is right now.

Nobody in pvp would use your suggestion, collect dust in the bank with all the items players pushed to nerf.

Durham

DaisyRay wrote: »

I've been murdered numerous times by oakensoul wearers and non oakensoul wearers, but it doesn't bother me. You guys seem to complain about everything. It's a wonder pvp still exists at this point.

To me, pvp isn't supposed to be like pve, so everyone shouldn't be doing the same small attacks. You have everything you need to create good defensive and offensive builds that can counter almost anything. I've done it with my healer, and I've seen other players do it as well. So your claims that the ring ruins the game is just silly.

If it's specifically aimed at nighblades and ganking, I can point out a few videos that showed gankers how to one shot even before this ring was even on the pts. This has existed for a long time it's not new at all. You're only complaining now because you enjoy complaining.

The ring is used for people like myself who are still new to this kind of game and is not capable of switching bars so quickly while in battle. I rarely ever use it on my nb because ganking is boring to me. I use it on my sorc and this has made everything so much easier for a potato like me. Am I OP? Not really. I can still die just as easily as before. The only difference is I can navigate my attacks better without needing worry about flipping bars and pressing the right button at the right time. You see, when you have no thumbs this is hard.

If you want to know what the real problem in pvp is, it's faction imbalance. It's difficult to do anything when one faction has 40+ people all at one keep and the other has no more than 20. Unfortunately, I never hear anyone complain about the things they can't fix on their own.

[I didn't read all the posts because it was too long, so if what I pointed out already came up...oops]

Like you said your new.

Holycannoli

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

Those five buffs are the main reason to use the ring, maybe the only reason.

DrSlaughtr

Avishag wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I agree with React. Equal players , the Oakensoul wearer wins.
The person with Oakensoul NEVER has to worry about resources to keep up their buffs, they NEVER have to worry about keeping those buffs up, they don't have to worry about a window to burst DPS, and can keep constant pressure on the opponent. In open world PvP/BGs they are also free to use Tri pots or Immovables without sacrificing DPS.

I feel that the writing has been on the wall for small scalers for a few year now, and that this just really seals that. I went through the Meteor Era, The Sloads and Dot Era, and Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak and Hrothgar Era. Those all had counters, even before they got nerfed/changed/fixed.

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

Malacath is still good, you just have to build for it. Same for kilt, thrass, pale order, sithis, etc. The problem is that in every instance they were released too strong. Players get hooked. Then when they are inevitably brought in line with what what is available to players, those who became dependent on those items cry foul before moving on to the new busted option.

The best thing for everyone would be for ZOS to foster an expectation from players that new items will be good and offer diversity but won't be so OP that everyone will be forced to jump on the train.

DrSlaughtr

Holycannoli wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

Those five buffs are the main reason to use the ring, maybe the only reason.

The reason to run the ring is to simplify combat for players with physical or mental limitations, or are new to the game. It's not supposed to be God troll material for the elites.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

Those five buffs are the main reason to use the ring, maybe the only reason.

The reason to run the ring is to simplify combat for players with physical or mental limitations, or are new to the game. It's not supposed to be God troll material for the elites.

It is, otherwise it wouldn't get a buff in the third iteration. Nothing wrong with item being both interesting to newbies and experienced players. Having valuable buffs isn't an issue, issue is that they overdid it, and need to choose carefully which ones to remove.

xylena_lazarow

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's not supposed to be God troll material for the elites

You sure? Seems like a good way to squeeze competitive players for cash...

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Removing the Major Heroism, Major Courage, Major Protection, Major Berserk, and Major force buffs would be a good start.

Maybe add some stats but nothing over the top: 1k magik, 1 stam, and 1k health along with Minor Aegis and Minor Slary.

Those five buffs are the main reason to use the ring, maybe the only reason.

The reason to run the ring is to simplify combat for players with physical or mental limitations, or are new to the game. It's not supposed to be God troll material for the elites.

It is, otherwise it wouldn't get a buff in the third iteration. Nothing wrong with item being both interesting to newbies and experienced players. Having valuable buffs isn't an issue, issue is that they overdid it, and need to choose carefully which ones to remove.

They stated multiple times this was an accessibility item. The problem is they over calculated what buffs were needed to make a one bar viable in both PvE and pvp without causing a giant mess. More often than not, they introduce strong items and sets balanced to fight NPCs, who don't care about getting trolled, that competely upend pvp.

I would agree there would be nothing wrong with experienced players using it for diversity if the ring didn't give you advantages a 2 bar build has no way to reliably access (if at all).

Duke_Falcon

I posted this idea in another forum, but thought I'd throw it in here as food for thought. I believe a good change to it might be, for every person in group, lose one buff off the ring.

My thought being that a group is or should be stronger than the mythic currently is via sheer numbers.

Also that each person in a group should be bringing value to the group.

Ive fought other solo guys, both of us using the ring and it doesn't feel unbalanced for either of us. I win some, I lose some.

It does give solo players a fighting chance of not being zerged instantly down. Meaning its easier to pick one or two players off out of larger groups of 4-12 people chasing you down. Groups that have all those buffs and still get to use 2 bars and stack damage and heals. As a solo player dealing with all that incoming damage bar swapping can be a death sentence.

Wolfpaw

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Avishag wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I agree with React. Equal players , the Oakensoul wearer wins.
The person with Oakensoul NEVER has to worry about resources to keep up their buffs, they NEVER have to worry about keeping those buffs up, they don't have to worry about a window to burst DPS, and can keep constant pressure on the opponent. In open world PvP/BGs they are also free to use Tri pots or Immovables without sacrificing DPS.

I feel that the writing has been on the wall for small scalers for a few year now, and that this just really seals that. I went through the Meteor Era, The Sloads and Dot Era, and Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak and Hrothgar Era. Those all had counters, even before they got nerfed/changed/fixed.

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

Malacath is still good, you just have to build for it. Same for kilt, thrass, pale order, sithis, etc. The problem is that in every instance they were released too strong. Players get hooked. Then when they are inevitably brought in line with what what is available to players, those who became dependent on those items cry foul before moving on to the new busted option.

The best thing for everyone would be for ZOS to foster an expectation from players that new items will be good and offer diversity but won't be so OP that everyone will be forced to jump on the train.

But would everyone jump on the new shiny if those previous items weren't nerfed to the point some niche build may, possibly, probably not use, or would we see some actual real build diversity?

The calls to nerf every new item is amusing, who wants high damage right?

Once Oak is nerfed that crowd can go back to complaining "Heals are too strong!".

baselesschart

I'm a bit tired of ZOS raising the floor. I had absolutely no hand holding as far as gear and/or skills when learning how to PvP. But thats how competitive PvP works. You get completely destroyed until you start to slowly learn how to counter things and manage your buffs and execute combos.

DrSlaughtr

Wolfpaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Avishag wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I agree with React. Equal players , the Oakensoul wearer wins.
The person with Oakensoul NEVER has to worry about resources to keep up their buffs, they NEVER have to worry about keeping those buffs up, they don't have to worry about a window to burst DPS, and can keep constant pressure on the opponent. In open world PvP/BGs they are also free to use Tri pots or Immovables without sacrificing DPS.

I feel that the writing has been on the wall for small scalers for a few year now, and that this just really seals that. I went through the Meteor Era, The Sloads and Dot Era, and Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak and Hrothgar Era. Those all had counters, even before they got nerfed/changed/fixed.

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

Malacath is still good, you just have to build for it. Same for kilt, thrass, pale order, sithis, etc. The problem is that in every instance they were released too strong. Players get hooked. Then when they are inevitably brought in line with what what is available to players, those who became dependent on those items cry foul before moving on to the new busted option.

The best thing for everyone would be for ZOS to foster an expectation from players that new items will be good and offer diversity but won't be so OP that everyone will be forced to jump on the train.

But would everyone jump on the new shiny if those previous items weren't nerfed to the point some niche build may, possibly, probably not use, or would we see some actual real build diversity?

The calls to nerf every new item is amusing, who wants high damage right?

Once Oak is nerfed that crowd can go back to complaining "Heals are too strong!".

I love high damage. I don't like a one bar build out performing 2 bar builds. If you gave me passive access to just one of those big major buffs (courage, heroism, berserk, force) on a two bar set up, then maybe we could call it even. But I don't. I have to manage a buff bar with skill, all of which eat resources, with less sustain, and less damage output, while also moving back and forth between bars from attack to defense.

Unless they come down on high to proclaim 2 bars are dead and everyone will be using 1 bar from now, then it's not good for the game to make a 1 bar set up not just better, but drastically better than the way the game was designed to be played. Nor is it fair to players who either don't want to buy a chapter just for one item, or actually like the way the game is built to be played and don't want to be pressured to use this item.

So if you don't like nerf threads, how about we increase the efficiency of 2 bar set ups to be on bar with oak builds. The problem with that is the game shouldn't be drastically altered to conform to performance of a one item mythic. It's not sustainable and will eventually lead to more problems down the road.

Wolfpaw

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Avishag wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I agree with React. Equal players , the Oakensoul wearer wins.
The person with Oakensoul NEVER has to worry about resources to keep up their buffs, they NEVER have to worry about keeping those buffs up, they don't have to worry about a window to burst DPS, and can keep constant pressure on the opponent. In open world PvP/BGs they are also free to use Tri pots or Immovables without sacrificing DPS.

I feel that the writing has been on the wall for small scalers for a few year now, and that this just really seals that. I went through the Meteor Era, The Sloads and Dot Era, and Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak and Hrothgar Era. Those all had counters, even before they got nerfed/changed/fixed.

I suggest that PVP and PVE players should Really have different mythics. Or ban mythics in PVP. It's getting tiresome, that the PVPers keep nagging everyone until each and every mythic that has Some use, gets totally destroyed.

Malacath is still good, you just have to build for it. Same for kilt, thrass, pale order, sithis, etc. The problem is that in every instance they were released too strong. Players get hooked. Then when they are inevitably brought in line with what what is available to players, those who became dependent on those items cry foul before moving on to the new busted option.

The best thing for everyone would be for ZOS to foster an expectation from players that new items will be good and offer diversity but won't be so OP that everyone will be forced to jump on the train.

But would everyone jump on the new shiny if those previous items weren't nerfed to the point some niche build may, possibly, probably not use, or would we see some actual real build diversity?

The calls to nerf every new item is amusing, who wants high damage right?

Once Oak is nerfed that crowd can go back to complaining "Heals are too strong!".

I love high damage. I don't like a one bar build out performing 2 bar builds. If you gave me passive access to just one of those big major buffs (courage, heroism, berserk, force) on a two bar set up, then maybe we could call it even. But I don't. I have to manage a buff bar with skill, all of which eat resources, with less sustain, and less damage output, while also moving back and forth between bars from attack to defense.

Unless they come down on high to proclaim 2 bars are dead and everyone will be using 1 bar from now, then it's not good for the game to make a 1 bar set up not just better, but drastically better than the way the game was designed to be played. Nor is it fair to players who either don't want to buy a chapter just for one item, or actually like the way the game is built to be played and don't want to be pressured to use this item.

So if you don't like nerf threads, how about we increase the efficiency of 2 bar set ups to be on bar with oak builds. The problem with that is the game shouldn't be drastically altered to conform to performance of a one item mythic. It's not sustainable and will eventually lead to more problems down the road.

With out a doubt it's getting a nerf, I just hope it's not to junk. I would look forward to more fb/bb build options by strengthening past sets and mythics.

iaminc

Pvp is all about crutch sets classes and races , stop acting like it takes any skill to be a mag DK or Templar in cyro or be in plague/dc zerging, ball grouping.

All these are fine with hardcore pvpers because they get to steamroll new or solos, now there’s an equaliser to these things ya’ll are crying rivers of salt because your free pool of AP is lesser.

I will concede 100% the ring should have courage and heroism removed in PvP areas but otherwise it’s not an issue imo.

OBJnoob

I feel like it’s really not as strong as people think. I say that as someone who plays in no proc, so the ring is arguably strongest there where other people REALLY can’t get those buffs.

It fits some characters well and not others. The ones it seems to work best on are classes that are already overtuned anyway. Magdk, Templar, ganker. Let’s not miss that obvious point or the relevance it should have on the discussion.

I use the ring on a stamdk. It’s very good. It’s awesome for small scale battleground type fights. Probably good for zerging too but who cares everything is good for zerging… I would imagine it’s trash for a ball group, at least with procs enabled, because you’d be getting those buffs anyway. It’s really not that good in a 1v1 context against a 2 bar player that knows what they’re doing… in fact it might be a noteworthy handicap.