Oakensoul is ruining the PVP experience, and needs to be balanced ASAP.

React

The oakensoul ring is enabling behaviors in PVP that were obviously overlooked when the ring was going through testing on the PTS. If the ring's intention was to provide accessibility on the PVE side of the game to people that struggle with barswapping, that is fine - but the buffs it offers are simply too strong in their current state to be allowed in PVP. Balancing needs to happen soon, or the ring needs to be disabled in PVP.

At minimum in order for the ring to be somewhat balanced in PVP, the major heroism and the major force need to be removed. NOT REPLACED WITH THE MINOR VERSIONS OF THE BUFFS. The heroism is the core issue for the defensive problem setups that the ring enables, and the force is the core issue of the offensive setups that the ring enables. I already know that the first reply I am going to get is "Well no one will use it if you remove those buffs!", which is just flat out untrue. Even with those buffs removed, the ring still offers equal to or more buffs than what most 5/5/2/1/1 two-bar builds can offer. The players using it now, especially for true accessibility reasons, will continue to use it. Only the problematic setups that are ruining the PVP experience for others will have to decide if they want to continue using it.

There are many setups that have already become extremely problematic just a few weeks into the patch. The worst offenders currently are:

• One bar dragonknights using corrosive - Depending on how much ulti regen these builds choose to run in addition to the ring, they can easily have a 75% or higher uptime on corrosive armor. Corrosive makes them nearly unkillable unless they are being hit an extreme number of times per second, and also provides a 100% pen buff, which is one of the strongest damage modifiers you can obtain in PVP.
• One bar healers/supports with ulti gen - It is extremely easy for support/heal focused players to have access to 90%+ uptime on ultimates like resto ult, warden trees, sword and shield ult, and practiced incantation. This is extremely problematic, as these ults are all designed as short duration low uptime counters to high incoming damage, but they are now being used with near 100% uptime as if they were normal abilities. These builds can easily make individuals/groups unkillable, and there is no viable counterplay to them.
• Gankers - Ganking has rapidly become an epidemic since the patch dropped. While there have always been gankers on the game, they usually had major weaknesses. If they wanted to deal enough damage to nearly insta-kill you, they would have to be extremely squishy and often have very little sustain. With the Oakensoul ring, gankers now have: 1)far more damage than was possible before if they run high damage, and damage on par to the high end of what was previously possible if they run a sustain or mitigation set with the ring. 2) significantly more mitigation than before, due to the 100% uptime major resolve and 100% uptime major protection, and the ability to still hit incredibly hard even with a sustain or mitigation 5pc. 3) better sustain as they have minor sustain buffs from the ring. (4)The ability to gank with an ultimate every 10-15 seconds, depending on what they're doing, due to the major heroism.

Personally, I have found the gankers to be the worst consequence of the oakensoul ring - there is simply no counter to being hit with 30k+ damage in one global cooldown from stealth, when you have no indication whatsoever that it is coming. The inferno staff heavy attack build, which was around before but is now much stronger with the ring, is one example. However, even just the standard calurion's gankers are hitting seemingly 50%+ harder than they did last patch, while having better mitigation/sustain/ultgen. This is killing any chance for solo/outnumbered PVP, and is not in line with zenimax's gameplay vision - we have cast times on our ultimates because "players need more time to react to these hard hitting abilities".

Here are some of the damage recaps I've seen this patch, courtesy of oakensoul users. These ganks all occurred vs my brawler NB setup, which has 25k resistances backbar and 22k resistances frontbar, 3.3k crit resist, minor protection, major protection active on the front bar all the time, two defensive blue CP (ironclad + duelist rebuff), and the pains refuge red CP. I've blurred the names to comply with zenimax's "name and shame" forum TOS policy.

taugrim

I've been eating a lot of 15-16k Molten Whips on a regular basis now, e.g.:


This is with 26.5k - 30k armor.

MagDK has become even more faceroll compared to pre-High Isle.

Basically any class that has a strong self-heal (e.g. Coagulating Blood), strong spammable (e.g. Molten Whip, Crystal Fragments, etc) can run 1-bar with Oakensoul while not giving up anything, especially if they have access to an ultimate that offers both offensive and defensive value (e.g. Corrosive Armor LOL).

It's skill-less PVP, which is super unfortunate.

xylena_lazarow

They'd need to nerf more than just Oakensoul to get rid of the stealth inferno instakills.

taugrim

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

They'd need to nerf more than just Oakensoul to get rid of the stealth inferno instakills.

Agreed, and I'm glad you pointed this out.

The heavy attack builds were an issue pre-High Isle. I have screenshots of 25k-30k 1-shot deaths, for example.

But Oakensoul has enabled a new kind of faceroll stupid effective builds.

React

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

They'd need to nerf more than just Oakensoul to get rid of the stealth inferno instakills.

Yeah, they're just what I have the most sceeenshots of from my gameplay this patch. They've become significantly stronger now too obviously, but pretty much any given ganker has no reason to not use this ring.

DrSlaughtr

A one bar nightblade can do more damage than my 2 bar setup. It shouldn't work that way. I won't give my money to enable whoever came to with this ring and refused to listen to legitimate warnings from the pts community. If this ring is brought under control I'll happily buy the chapter.

I have a friend who only had one hand. He wears a prosthetic hand on his left. This is who the ring is supposedly made for. He'll be the first to tell you he doesn't need heroism or berserk.

It's only been on console 2 days and it's already wreaking havoc. I have seen a DK fighting off 10 enemies just rolling from corrosive to corrosive.

And these one shot heavy builds? Ridiculous. Yes they existed before but they were rare. Most people didn't want to make the sacrifices necessary to get it to work. Now it's just so easy there's no longer any sacrifice.

ShadowProc

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

Alchimiste1

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

The thing is there are very few people (top streamers included) that can Actually 1vX with some degree of consistency now.

Quote
" This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players"

this hasn't been true for a long time ; 1vX its harder now than it ever has been. its not just streamers that agree the ring is too strong. I think react did a very good job in outlining some of the more problematic things this ring allows. Why put in 5x the effort for only 1.2X the reward? Because that’s what this ring is doing.

this ring raises the floor so much is ridiculous. The amount of effort you have to put in order to be effective in pvp ( in particular group pvp; because lets be honest thats what the majority of players do in pvp : not 1vX) while using this ring is laughable. You Never have to worry about keeping your buffs up ; there is very little room for error. On top of that you get Emp level ult gen and major force. This is not good mechanics.

Hexquisite

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

And this is good for new players to pvp how?
I did a bunch of BGS on a new alt with no MMR, and the new players were just getting slaughtered and leaving the match.
Every match at least 2 people left, sometimes those that joined after also left, sometimes, I was the only one left.

I guess they will have to go out and get that ring.

React

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

I appreciate you tuning in to the stream!

While there are certainly builds that are unbalanced and allow good players to be "unkillable" versus new players, the builds are not doing all of the work for these good players. There is buff uptime, resource management, positioning, and many other factors that allow good players to succeed while outnumbered against lesser players - wins do not simply come for free when a good player puts on a good build.

A great example of this would be the build I've been playing on stream. If you've looked at what I'm using and how I play, I'm sure you understand that to survive I need to maintain constant uptime on all my buffs, perfectly rotate my VERY short duration heals, pay constant attention to my surroundings, and constantly line of sight to have a chance at succeeding outnumbered. I run the absolute maximum damage I can viably use while still having the other stats necessary, and even with very few mistakes I am often just getting by on resources/healing/damage.

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels. We're not just talking about a slight crutch to help new players compete with good players, but a single 1 piece item that is doing everything that would normally separate them from a good player, for them. The ring is providing far more damage than a two bar build can acquire, it fully negates the need to maintain your defensive buffs, it provides sustain and mitigation buffs that are largely inaccessible to most classes, and it provides the strongest ulti gen buff in the game outside of being emperor - all in a 1pc item.

If new players find that they cannot come anywhere close to killing a "good" player, but they then equip one item and can compete just fine, that is not a sign of a well balanced mythic. It is also not an appropriate way to raise the skill floor.

The balancing suggested in the original post would allow for the mythic to serve the purpose of eliminating some of the APM (actions per minute) needed in PVP/PVE, but with more reasonable buffs rather than completely absurd ones. For the PVP side of things, it would still be a viable option for new players to raise their floor - but the problem setups mentioned would not be able to overperform as they are currently.

Metemsycosis

Werewolves man.

Cuddlypuff

I don't mind the melee oakenblades as much as the ranged heavy attackers. With the former at least its a 50-50 between getting instagibbed and them becoming a VD grenade and wiping 10 other zerglings. The ranged version just has no downtime or counterplay, and every zerg cluster has several of them waiting competing over that prized Xv1 gank.

taugrim

Hexquisite wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

And this is good for new players to pvp how?
I did a bunch of BGS on a new alt with no MMR, and the new players were just getting slaughtered and leaving the match.
Every match at least 2 people left, sometimes those that joined after also left, sometimes, I was the only one left.

I guess they will have to go out and get that ring.

That, or they'll walk away with the impression (that plenty of PVE players have) that PVP in ESO is wildly imbalanced (which is it with some patches, such as the with the infamous Hrothgar's Chill / Dark Convergence Update or with the Update for High Isle) and therefore never worth playing again.

It's simply awful for newer players.

ShadowProc

Hexquisite wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

And this is good for new players to pvp how?
I did a bunch of BGS on a new alt with no MMR, and the new players were just getting slaughtered and leaving the match.
Every match at least 2 people left, sometimes those that joined after also left, sometimes, I was the only one left.

I guess they will have to go out and get that ring.

Good point. I did say I am all for nerfing it. Just other things need to change as well. I just prefer it over unkillable builds.

ShadowProc

React wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

I appreciate you tuning in to the stream!

While there are certainly builds that are unbalanced and allow good players to be "unkillable" versus new players, the builds are not doing all of the work for these good players. There is buff uptime, resource management, positioning, and many other factors that allow good players to succeed while outnumbered against lesser players - wins do not simply come for free when a good player puts on a good build.

A great example of this would be the build I've been playing on stream. If you've looked at what I'm using and how I play, I'm sure you understand that to survive I need to maintain constant uptime on all my buffs, perfectly rotate my VERY short duration heals, pay constant attention to my surroundings, and constantly line of sight to have a chance at succeeding outnumbered. I run the absolute maximum damage I can viably use while still having the other stats necessary, and even with very few mistakes I am often just getting by on resources/healing/damage.

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels. We're not just talking about a slight crutch to help new players compete with good players, but a single 1 piece item that is doing everything that would normally separate them from a good player, for them. The ring is providing far more damage than a two bar build can acquire, it fully negates the need to maintain your defensive buffs, it provides sustain and mitigation buffs that are largely inaccessible to most classes, and it provides the strongest ulti gen buff in the game outside of being emperor - all in a 1pc item.

If new players find that they cannot come anywhere close to killing a "good" player, but they then equip one item and can compete just fine, that is not a sign of a well balanced mythic. It is also not an appropriate way to raise the skill floor.

The balancing suggested in the original post would allow for the mythic to serve the purpose of eliminating some of the APM (actions per minute) needed in PVP/PVE, but with more reasonable buffs rather than completely absurd ones. For the PVP side of things, it would still be a viable option for new players to raise their floor - but the problem setups mentioned would not be able to overperform as they are currently.

I know what you are saying. I tried your build. Got rekt. You should have put disclaimer in your video. Lol

I agree with nerfing as I stated. I just choose this over the previous metas. I like when things are able to be killed. The writing was on the wall when I first saw this coming out for gankers and dks.

Digiman

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

You can dodge and block most telegraphed ultimate. I do expect ZoS will balance this if 90% of the players are gunning it, crying for nerfs on this is stupid and doesn't help bring the actual problems class have suffered through past changes.

Its exasperates it. I am trying to get the ring myself, no luck, but I am not going to cry nerfs just because a bunch of well equipped players pound me. I do expect changes to help enjoy my class better.

After all I have two bars 3 sets on I think this ring will fade like the rest of the antiquities when new stuff is added to the next zone.

If you can't learn to dodge or block then your not a good pvper.

Cuddlypuff

Digiman wrote: »

If you can't learn to dodge or block then your not a good pvper.

I'll stick with mist form thanks.

React

Digiman wrote: »

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

You can dodge and block most telegraphed ultimate. I do expect ZoS will balance this if 90% of the players are gunning it, crying for nerfs on this is stupid and doesn't help bring the actual problems class have suffered through past changes.

Its exasperates it. I am trying to get the ring myself, no luck, but I am not going to cry nerfs just because a bunch of well equipped players pound me. I do expect changes to help enjoy my class better.

After all I have two bars 3 sets on I think this ring will fade like the rest of the antiquities when new stuff is added to the next zone.

If you can't learn to dodge or block then your not a good pvper.

But what do you do when you're being hit from stealth for 20-30k damage in one GCD, with no indication that it is coming? How can you reliably dodge or block that damage?

What do you do when you've got several oakensoul nightblades attacking you while you're outnumbered, dealing 15k+ damage every time they come out of stealth?

How can you possibly kill an oakensoul healer or corrosive spamming DK, when they have defensive ultimates up with 75%-90% uptime?

This really has nothing to do with "adapting" or "getting good". The ring is simply far too out of balance to be allowed to remain in it's current state.

ArctosCethlenn

Digiman wrote: »

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

There's never been a successful pay to win pvp game, and there never will be. The cost to get the item should never be a factor in balance calculations.

ChunkyCat

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

Ominer

ChunkyCat wrote: »

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

I don't understand PvP balance but I'm going to spew my opinion regardless while providing nothing constructive.

jaws343

ChunkyCat wrote: »

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

But it isn't ridiculous. Because, where is the line?

If putting on one ring can double your DPS output, or reset the floor for your PVP viability. Why not just 1 skill. How about a mythic that gives you every buff in the game, but only allows the use of 1 skill, and that skill does 100K damage.

Oh, you only get 1 skill, players will say. Yeah, 1 skill that does 100K damage every second. Oh, you can't heal with only 1 skill. Well, equip a set that covers healing for you.

The problem is, when you start wildly raising the floor, you throw out all semblance of balance the game even tried to have. If a player can be more effective with less than half the skills, there is a problem. When we can't even draw a line at acceptable power levels, we wind down the path to just pressing 1 button and doing ridiculous DPS. We have to draw that line somewhere. So, maybe we should do it when something is absurdly overperforming, rather than waiting until everything is a dumpster fire.

Ragnaroek93

ShadowProc wrote: »

React wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

I watch and love your stream and I am a bit biased as I mainly gank. But there is more than the ring that needs to change. Unsurprisingly the more vocal players advocating for a nerf are streamers. This is a result of running builds that allowed them to absolutely destroy newer players. The ring has raised the floor and now Everyone is killable except ball groups. I think this is a good thing.

That being said I agree it is too strong. But I prefer the current meta with people dying to unkillable builds. I am sorry but streamers and 1vxers are the minority here and the game shouldn’t be balanced around that.

By all means nerf the ring but other things as well that lead to people being unkillable.

I appreciate you tuning in to the stream!

While there are certainly builds that are unbalanced and allow good players to be "unkillable" versus new players, the builds are not doing all of the work for these good players. There is buff uptime, resource management, positioning, and many other factors that allow good players to succeed while outnumbered against lesser players - wins do not simply come for free when a good player puts on a good build.

A great example of this would be the build I've been playing on stream. If you've looked at what I'm using and how I play, I'm sure you understand that to survive I need to maintain constant uptime on all my buffs, perfectly rotate my VERY short duration heals, pay constant attention to my surroundings, and constantly line of sight to have a chance at succeeding outnumbered. I run the absolute maximum damage I can viably use while still having the other stats necessary, and even with very few mistakes I am often just getting by on resources/healing/damage.

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels. We're not just talking about a slight crutch to help new players compete with good players, but a single 1 piece item that is doing everything that would normally separate them from a good player, for them. The ring is providing far more damage than a two bar build can acquire, it fully negates the need to maintain your defensive buffs, it provides sustain and mitigation buffs that are largely inaccessible to most classes, and it provides the strongest ulti gen buff in the game outside of being emperor - all in a 1pc item.

If new players find that they cannot come anywhere close to killing a "good" player, but they then equip one item and can compete just fine, that is not a sign of a well balanced mythic. It is also not an appropriate way to raise the skill floor.

The balancing suggested in the original post would allow for the mythic to serve the purpose of eliminating some of the APM (actions per minute) needed in PVP/PVE, but with more reasonable buffs rather than completely absurd ones. For the PVP side of things, it would still be a viable option for new players to raise their floor - but the problem setups mentioned would not be able to overperform as they are currently.

I know what you are saying. I tried your build. Got rekt. You should have put disclaimer in your video. Lol

I agree with nerfing as I stated. I just choose this over the previous metas. I like when things are able to be killed. The writing was on the wall when I first saw this coming out for gankers and dks.

I agree that players need to be killable, ESO definitely has time to kill issues (on some classes at least) but locking the solution behind a paywall in form of an item is stupid. What ZOS should do are small balance changes every ~2 weeks instead of this wild west balance every few months. The ring needs a hotfix in PvP and this can't wait until the next update.

The main issue with this item is that it gives 100% uptime on some of the strongest buffs in the game which you don't have reliable access too on a normal build (major berserc, major force, major heroism).

Durham

"The oakensoul ring is enabling behaviors in PVP that were obviously overlooked when the ring was going through testing on the PTS."

Testers screamed this on the forms and in testing. ZOS said they were going to double down with the item.


Two bar builds are still good with this ring out there but if you want an advantage you run a 1 bar build
Every class in PVP now has builds that are just simply superior to two bars.

Skullstachio

If I’m being honest.

From what I see here, the problem isn’t the ring itself directly, it seems to be from the major buffs that it provides in a PVP environment that was almost never seen in a PvP scenario but more commonly in groups and most PvE elements.

What “could” be done: if the problem is coming from the major/minor buffs that are granted from the oakensoul ring or any other mythic of similar power, maybe consider making Battlespirit reduces Major/Minor Buff Effectiveness by a set percentage.

Point is: if major/minor buffs granted are problematic in PvP but not PvE, consider “selectively” reducing the effectiveness of certain buffs that are the most problematic as an extension of the Battlespirit passive in all PvP environments, that way it not only somewhat balances PvP a fair bit in a better manner, but it also may prevent unnecessary PvE nerfs to Skills in general.

In short: Battlespirit reduces buff effectiveness in PVP without affecting Abilities/Ultimates in PvE directly, PVP has better balancing options in the long run, Everyone on both sides wins to a veritable degree.

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels

This isn't a problem to me regarding the floor, now I don't have to feel bad for killing them. This is definitely a huge problem on the ceiling, being "good" shouldn't make anyone nigh-unkillable or able to one-tap instakill, both issues that existed long before Oakensoul, look at all the ongoing threads about heal stacking and inferno one shotting... polarizing gameplay in which players are either immortal or instantly dead is what's been driving players away for a long time.

jaws343

Skullstachio wrote: »

If I’m being honest.

From what I see here, the problem isn’t the ring itself directly, it seems to be from the major buffs that it provides in a PVP environment that was almost never seen in a PvP scenario but more commonly in groups and most PvE elements.

What “could” be done: if the problem is coming from the major/minor buffs that are granted from the oakensoul ring or any other mythic of similar power, maybe consider making Battlespirit reduces Major/Minor Buff Effectiveness by a set percentage.

Point is: if major/minor buffs granted are problematic in PvP but not PvE, consider “selectively” reducing the effectiveness of certain buffs that are the most problematic as an extension of the Battlespirit passive in all PvP environments, that way it not only somewhat balances PvP a fair bit in a better manner, but it also may prevent unnecessary PvE nerfs to Skills in general.

In short: Battlespirit reduces buff effectiveness in PVP without affecting Abilities/Ultimates in PvE directly, PVP has better balancing options in the long run, Everyone on both sides wins to a veritable degree.

That is flat out terrible though. The problem is the 100% uptime of the buffs due to the ring.

Let's take an impactful Major buff on the ring: Major Force

It is currently possible, without Oakensoul, to have 100% major force uptime in a group in PVP. BUT, that requires extreme coordination and perfectly timed, rotated ultimates. Or, entire 5 piece gear sets, that only provide Major Force under specific conditions. Effectively, you are not going to get 100% uptime on Major Force in PVP without a ton of sacrifice, or maintenance.

Same for pretty much every major buff on the ring. To keep the buffs up, you have to keep up with buffing and rebuffing. And quite a few of these will never have 100% uptime.

And that is why the buffs themselves are not the problem. They require specifically building for them, and then performing actions to keep them applied. And even when you do that, you are more likely than not, not going to have all of them applied all at the same time during every moment of combat you are in.

With Oaken, they are just there, at all times. No need to spend resources reapplying, or wearing 5 piece sets that apply them under conditions, or coordinating ultimates to keep the buffs active. They just are.

So, why would it ever be a good idea to then just nerf the buffs in PVP altogether. The Major/Minor buffs themselves are not the problem. The problem is the ring provides permanent uptime of the buffs. It removes the conditions that most of these buffs have to apply. Without this ring, these buffs are fine as is. Some rare, some not so rare, most requiring actual effort and upkeep to apply.

Digiman

React wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

I actually think that nerfing the oakensoul is stupid for the price you pay to get it and wear it. Been on the receiving end of these and admit most of the mistakes I first made I learned from and was able to adapt.

You can dodge and block most telegraphed ultimate. I do expect ZoS will balance this if 90% of the players are gunning it, crying for nerfs on this is stupid and doesn't help bring the actual problems class have suffered through past changes.

Its exasperates it. I am trying to get the ring myself, no luck, but I am not going to cry nerfs just because a bunch of well equipped players pound me. I do expect changes to help enjoy my class better.

After all I have two bars 3 sets on I think this ring will fade like the rest of the antiquities when new stuff is added to the next zone.

If you can't learn to dodge or block then your not a good pvper.

But what do you do when you're being hit from stealth for 20-30k damage in one GCD, with no indication that it is coming? How can you reliably dodge or block that damage?

What do you do when you've got several oakensoul nightblades attacking you while you're outnumbered, dealing 15k+ damage every time they come out of stealth?

How can you possibly kill an oakensoul healer or corrosive spamming DK, when they have defensive ultimates up with 75%-90% uptime?

This really has nothing to do with "adapting" or "getting good". The ring is simply far too out of balance to be allowed to remain in it's current state.

let be honest if 8 nightblades with are going to gank me I won't live. Oakensoul or not and its meant to be designed that way.

Sorry but looking at this thread I see a trend of players who just can't get the ring because they don't buy the DLC to be able to get it and were going to die due to sheer numbers of opposing players overwhelming them and others who are just bad.

The ring is fine, it was god mode in PTS quit whining it and learn to adapts like dark convergence.

React

ChunkyCat wrote: »

React wrote: »

The problem with this ring is that it is allowing players to perform far outside of what should be possible at their skill levels.

Allow me to translate the above quoted statement.

*coughs*clearsthroat*

How dare some random player defeat me when I’m the one who’s obviously better!

Every PvP streamer has made that comment in some form or another every time a new powerful item is released.

The only argument to make against Oakensoul, is it allows those insta-death moments from an opponent in stealth. Other than constantly blocking and dodge rolling, there is no counter for those 30k inferno staff hits, or those 30k combos from overload and crystal weap procs, or those Caluurian Incap combos. That’s the real issue.

Everything else is manageable.

And no, I don’t have a solution, but the original quoted statement is flat out ridiculous while also being the prime example of the toxicity in any PvP game.

Chunky, there is nothing toxic at all about this post. As I stated multiple times, the ring's purpose of lowering the APM required for newer players to bring them up to par in terms of the actions they have to do, is fine. Even having a few of the strong buffs on it, such as the berserk & courage, the major protection, and the minor regens (which are hard to come by otherwise), is fine.

But having near emperor tier ulti regen and the ability to hit harder than a player who is lining up combos with multiple skills across two bars and running a full damage build, while using only one or two damaging abilities, is not fair or balanced in any regard.

Also, you said that everything else is manageable - but this is flat out untrue when referring to the 75-90% uptime defensive ults & corrosive that we are seeing on live. The simple fact is that these abilities fundamentally are not designed to have that high of an uptime, and their power levels reflect that.

LeifErickson

A lot needs to be done in regards to ganking. Nerfing the ring isn't nearly enough, I was getting one shot by inferno heavies and traditional melee ganks last patch in full impen heavy 30k health builds.

spongebobmovieticket

I’m more concerned with occult overload. Take away major heroism and major force and it will probs fade away with other mythics. Honestly, spamming ultimate is the best thing about it, and even with the amount of other buffs, running one bar gets old fast. It’s just not engaging or fun gameplay imo.