Oakensoul isn't getting nerfed

fizzylu

Faulgor wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

I'm fine with buffs being removed for the PvP players as you would want it to be a level playing field, but leave us poor old PvE players to our enjoyment by not removing anything from it.

Thanks!

Maybe I'm stupid, but it doesn't actually feel that great in PvE. Currently I'm using it on a solo magplar and losing the 2nd bar really hurts.
Yeah haha you just jab anyway right, well actually no. Often the heal from jabs is not enough to keep you alive, just because sometimes you can't attack, so you need another heal or shield. Jabs by itself is also not such stellar damage, even with Major Berserk and Force (Courage is just replacing your backbar berserker glyph), so you need some other DoTs. 5 skill slots fill surprisingly fast, and the damage doesn't feel significantly different, mostly slightly worse.

Pale Order feels much more powerful for some reason, because you can pretty much just power through your rotations and don't mind much else, and you have 2 bars to do it.

Obviously the situation is different in PvP, where the backbar is mostly used as a buff bar anyway. But I'm worried a general nerf will make an item that isn't that stellar for PvE as-is actually become unappealing. Most likely they are going to at least remove Major Heroism, but that's probably the most interesting aspect of the ring for PvE to me.

I mean, how many sets already exist in game that are never used haha I don't think it happening to another or an item is that big of a deal, but xD
ZOS knocks out 30+ sets/items over the course of a prologue dlc, the actual chapter, and the follow up dlc. Then they blame imbalances on classes/current skill lines while using that as an excuse to not give us new ones. Which is real funny because I've never feared a class or even a weapon/guild/world skill line, but a class+some proc set/mythic.... but I'm getting a little off subject with that one hahahahaaaa either way my guess is that the majority of them barely get used to begin with so might as well add another to the list <.<

ccfeeling

If ZOS makes old sets great again, no one gonna purchase new chapter / dlc

Faulgor

FrankonPC wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah nothing to see here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9H6FkL6ilE

Yes, there's really nothing to see here. Those people he killed 'by himself' are gonna get killed by him even without the ring. People that he killed spammed execute on full health target, panic spam skills when CC'd, doesn't have unblockable CC while wee bit more competent ones were first destroyed by others and he just finished off the ones with low resources and so on. If he can replicate this on actual competent pvper, I'd incline to believe that the ring is OP because it clearly trivializes the set.

Hell, is barehanded DK OP too? Because when IC patch dropped because I've seen someone drop a player with no gear (weapons too) on his DK against a new pvper. I should have recorded that legendary duel. But I guess with the vid's logic, DK OP, can beat players with no gears. Skill gap clearly isn't the one that was showcased, nope. Not at all.

i hit 8k whips with no other gear but the ring, no dual wield passives, no bloodthirsty etc. show me another setup with a mythic/1pc off trait jewelry and weapons that comes close to that. feel free to go into bgs and show how it can be replicated. ill be here!

There has been a lot of interesting logic used to say why you were able to do that and not because of the ring. I gave up because it's like arguing with a wall

yeah, im not sure why some people's default is to immediately denigrate other players in defense of a set but it's quite common. It also has no bearing on the actual discussion of how powerful oakensoul is compared to other mythics.

Of course this is a lower mmr bg but damage is damage. I thought it was clear that oakensoul gives you the strength of multiple different 5 pc bonuses, so much so that you can literally not run other damage. Major force, courage and berserk is such a strong combination stacked w major heroism and the supplemental buffs. imo you cannot replicate anywhere close to similar dmg with a one piece mythic, off set weapons and offset jewelry.

I haven't played PvP for a while, certainly not since the ring was added, so I'm curious: What would be your specific suggestion to nerf it? There have been many suggestions floating around, but mostly from PvE folk or those that say it shouldn't work in PvP at all.

Specifically I'm wondering if the ring would still be considered OP in PvP if it lost Major Berserk, Major Courage and Major Force, but kept Major Heroism? Because that is certainly the most unique aspect of the ring, whereas the other 3 buffs are doing more or less the same, i.e. more damage.

Toxic_Hemlock

Faulgor wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

I'm fine with buffs being removed for the PvP players as you would want it to be a level playing field, but leave us poor old PvE players to our enjoyment by not removing anything from it.

Thanks!

Maybe I'm stupid, but it doesn't actually feel that great in PvE. Currently I'm using it on a solo magplar and losing the 2nd bar really hurts.
Yeah haha you just jab anyway right, well actually no. Often the heal from jabs is not enough to keep you alive, just because sometimes you can't attack, so you need another heal or shield. Jabs by itself is also not such stellar damage, even with Major Berserk and Force (Courage is just replacing your backbar berserker glyph), so you need some other DoTs. 5 skill slots fill surprisingly fast, and the damage doesn't feel significantly different, mostly slightly worse.

Pale Order feels much more powerful for some reason, because you can pretty much just power through your rotations and don't mind much else, and you have 2 bars to do it.

Obviously the situation is different in PvP, where the backbar is mostly used as a buff bar anyway. But I'm worried a general nerf will make an item that isn't that stellar for PvE as-is actually become unappealing. Most likely they are going to at least remove Major Heroism, but that's probably the most interesting aspect of the ring for PvE to me.

Well I don't ever switch bars unless I am fighting say a dragon and don't want to get any where near it. For those I just equip a ranged weapon manually. My reflexes are quite bad now so I cannot switch bars easily, I'll take oakensoul over pale rider for now as I generally just do easier content anyways and things definitely die quicker. If I had to face a vet dungeon though, I would rethink my strategy.

fizzylu

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

I'm fine with buffs being removed for the PvP players as you would want it to be a level playing field, but leave us poor old PvE players to our enjoyment by not removing anything from it.

Thanks!

Maybe I'm stupid, but it doesn't actually feel that great in PvE. Currently I'm using it on a solo magplar and losing the 2nd bar really hurts.
Yeah haha you just jab anyway right, well actually no. Often the heal from jabs is not enough to keep you alive, just because sometimes you can't attack, so you need another heal or shield. Jabs by itself is also not such stellar damage, even with Major Berserk and Force (Courage is just replacing your backbar berserker glyph), so you need some other DoTs. 5 skill slots fill surprisingly fast, and the damage doesn't feel significantly different, mostly slightly worse.

Pale Order feels much more powerful for some reason, because you can pretty much just power through your rotations and don't mind much else, and you have 2 bars to do it.

Obviously the situation is different in PvP, where the backbar is mostly used as a buff bar anyway. But I'm worried a general nerf will make an item that isn't that stellar for PvE as-is actually become unappealing. Most likely they are going to at least remove Major Heroism, but that's probably the most interesting aspect of the ring for PvE to me.

Well I don't ever switch bars unless I am fighting say a dragon and don't want to get any where near it. For those I just equip a ranged weapon manually. My reflexes are quite bad now so I cannot switch bars easily, I'll take oakensoul over pale rider for now as I generally just do easier content anyways and things definitely die quicker. If I had to face a vet dungeon though, I would rethink my strategy.

How would you feel about them working in major resolve and major sorcery/brutality buffs as class passive abilities rather than active abilities? I know some classes currently don't have access to both, but just consider it as if they added versions of them to the classes that currently lack either haha I feel like those two buffs are the most important and practically every build for sure runs them. I feel like such a change would help people who do struggle with the bar swapping just enough to not break PVE or PVP and also help reduce the buff/resource management style of combat which many people do not enjoy.

Brrrofski

kieso wrote: »

The problem with the ring is that for much, much less effort you can almost do as well as a two bar setup.

More.

You can do a lot more.

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

They changed Clever Alchemist so you needed to be in combat to proc it. Because of the potential it was giving gankers.

Now we have this, lol.

Alchimiste1

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

I will address my thoughts to all who says Oakensoul is OP in PVP without a doubt and, especialy, to them who belives "naked char with only one mythic can outperform everything" and belives video was maid in completely fair enviroment in high mmg against strong oponents(and difenetly not on a new char without any mmr against noobs)

I hope we can discuss problem without unnecessary emotions (we all know feeling from PVP "thing X killed me, unfair,nerf it")


Lets make experiment:
lets grab two equaly expirienced high performance PVPers in duel or BG-like suroundings;
give one of them freedom of choice of 2bar class for winning (so he will pick magDK)
and other get magden with only "broken ring" and, to be more OP, full nostat set

Can you assume results of this "confrontation" ?

In simplier words - some classes was too strong even without ring and become even stronger.
In more clear point of view: some classes need more then one bar to just have enough skills to surviwe in pvp, but others can do dmg,unblokable stun an be mobile using only one button. or be unkillable and kill full emeny stuck, by using one button

One additional thought: some blames ZOS for "making item to sell chapter"... Well, other companyes "nerfs" everithing by releasing new addons with full power creep. Is it better business model for you?

And last thyng adressed to all, who blames ring only because dont have chapter - are you serious?

What a terrible experiment. you are picking what is almost certainly the worst class to put oaken on (warden since it doesn’t even have a burst heal) and putting it against magdk that’s one of the highest pressure classes ? That matchup is doomed. What kinda results do you even expect to get from that. I have one for you that’s better. Put two nbs against each other oaken vs no oaken , I think you’ll be very surprised


Also decimus it there hitting 15k+ whips in bgs. Very balanced I know

TechMaybeHic

fizzylu wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

I'm fine with buffs being removed for the PvP players as you would want it to be a level playing field, but leave us poor old PvE players to our enjoyment by not removing anything from it.

Thanks!

Maybe I'm stupid, but it doesn't actually feel that great in PvE. Currently I'm using it on a solo magplar and losing the 2nd bar really hurts.
Yeah haha you just jab anyway right, well actually no. Often the heal from jabs is not enough to keep you alive, just because sometimes you can't attack, so you need another heal or shield. Jabs by itself is also not such stellar damage, even with Major Berserk and Force (Courage is just replacing your backbar berserker glyph), so you need some other DoTs. 5 skill slots fill surprisingly fast, and the damage doesn't feel significantly different, mostly slightly worse.

Pale Order feels much more powerful for some reason, because you can pretty much just power through your rotations and don't mind much else, and you have 2 bars to do it.

Obviously the situation is different in PvP, where the backbar is mostly used as a buff bar anyway. But I'm worried a general nerf will make an item that isn't that stellar for PvE as-is actually become unappealing. Most likely they are going to at least remove Major Heroism, but that's probably the most interesting aspect of the ring for PvE to me.

I mean, how many sets already exist in game that are never used haha I don't think it happening to another or an item is that big of a deal, but xD
ZOS knocks out 30+ sets/items over the course of a prologue dlc, the actual chapter, and the follow up dlc. Then they blame imbalances on classes/current skill lines while using that as an excuse to not give us new ones. Which is real funny because I've never feared a class or even a weapon/guild/world skill line, but a class+some proc set/mythic.... but I'm getting a little off subject with that one hahahahaaaa either way my guess is that the majority of them barely get used to begin with so might as well add another to the list <.<

I was thinking yesterday after I had mentioned old 7th Legion which used to heal you every time you got hit. Then they added a cool down. Then they made it health recovery. Then they nerfed health recovery in battle spirit. And I started to wonder if the ring would be as big of a deal if they hadn't neutered so many back bar options.

VaranisArano

Brrrofski wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

The problem with the ring is that for much, much less effort you can almost do as well as a two bar setup.

More.

You can do a lot more.

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

They changed Clever Alchemist so you needed to be in combat to proc it. Because of the potential it was giving gankers.

Now we have this, lol.

They changed Clever Alchemist because of the way gear swapping works. Allowing it to proc outside of combat meant that PC gankers would proc the effect, then use addons to quickly swap into ganking gear, and then blow someone up with all the benefits of CA and none of the downsides.

Giving gankers frontloaded damage wasn't the issue, so much as gankers exploiting an unintended interaction with gear swapping.

FrankonPC

Faulgor wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah nothing to see here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9H6FkL6ilE

Yes, there's really nothing to see here. Those people he killed 'by himself' are gonna get killed by him even without the ring. People that he killed spammed execute on full health target, panic spam skills when CC'd, doesn't have unblockable CC while wee bit more competent ones were first destroyed by others and he just finished off the ones with low resources and so on. If he can replicate this on actual competent pvper, I'd incline to believe that the ring is OP because it clearly trivializes the set.

Hell, is barehanded DK OP too? Because when IC patch dropped because I've seen someone drop a player with no gear (weapons too) on his DK against a new pvper. I should have recorded that legendary duel. But I guess with the vid's logic, DK OP, can beat players with no gears. Skill gap clearly isn't the one that was showcased, nope. Not at all.

i hit 8k whips with no other gear but the ring, no dual wield passives, no bloodthirsty etc. show me another setup with a mythic/1pc off trait jewelry and weapons that comes close to that. feel free to go into bgs and show how it can be replicated. ill be here!

There has been a lot of interesting logic used to say why you were able to do that and not because of the ring. I gave up because it's like arguing with a wall

yeah, im not sure why some people's default is to immediately denigrate other players in defense of a set but it's quite common. It also has no bearing on the actual discussion of how powerful oakensoul is compared to other mythics.

Of course this is a lower mmr bg but damage is damage. I thought it was clear that oakensoul gives you the strength of multiple different 5 pc bonuses, so much so that you can literally not run other damage. Major force, courage and berserk is such a strong combination stacked w major heroism and the supplemental buffs. imo you cannot replicate anywhere close to similar dmg with a one piece mythic, off set weapons and offset jewelry.

I haven't played PvP for a while, certainly not since the ring was added, so I'm curious: What would be your specific suggestion to nerf it? There have been many suggestions floating around, but mostly from PvE folk or those that say it shouldn't work in PvP at all.

Specifically I'm wondering if the ring would still be considered OP in PvP if it lost Major Berserk, Major Courage and Major Force, but kept Major Heroism? Because that is certainly the most unique aspect of the ring, whereas the other 3 buffs are doing more or less the same, i.e. more damage.

In my opinion the two strongest buffs on the ring in pvp are major force and major heroism. the ring would still be the strongest mythic if they both went to minor, or if you change major force to minor and then replace heroism with another buff, maybe something like vitality or mending since your amount of heals are lower.

I did a video on it comparing oakensoul to other mythics and even with the lack of a back bar 5 piece it's still modestly 2-3x better than other mythics. removing 2 major buffs entirely wouldn't be a big deal imo.

I'd prefer it if it wasn't just nuked from pvp though. It's currently problematic of course, but more gear variety in that environment is always better, it just has to be closer in relative strength so people cannot abuse certain mechanics. If I were a dev in this situation I'd make one of those adjustments and have a group of players whose opinions I trust provide feedback on what they see in pvp. Also open up a thread for discussion and be ready to make some more tweaks if it's still needed.

FrankonPC

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

I will address my thoughts to all who says Oakensoul is OP in PVP without a doubt and, especialy, to them who belives "naked char with only one mythic can outperform everything" and belives video was maid in completely fair enviroment in high mmg against strong oponents(and difenetly not on a new char without any mmr against noobs)

I hope we can discuss problem without unnecessary emotions (we all know feeling from PVP "thing X killed me, unfair,nerf it")


Lets make experiment:
lets grab two equaly expirienced high performance PVPers in duel or BG-like suroundings;
give one of them freedom of choice of 2bar class for winning (so he will pick magDK)
and other get magden with only "broken ring" and, to be more OP, full nostat set

Can you assume results of this "confrontation" ?

In simplier words - some classes was too strong even without ring and become even stronger.
In more clear point of view: some classes need more then one bar to just have enough skills to surviwe in pvp, but others can do dmg,unblokable stun an be mobile using only one button. or be unkillable and kill full emeny stuck, by using one button

One additional thought: some blames ZOS for "making item to sell chapter"... Well, other companyes "nerfs" everithing by releasing new addons with full power creep. Is it better business model for you?

And last thyng adressed to all, who blames ring only because dont have chapter - are you serious?

I didn't see this before, but it's incredible how in one paragraph you talk about how a naked character is not a fair comparison because of low mmr and then in the next paragraph you match up the best dueling class in the game vs the worst that has a self healing issue. With what I did in that video and intentionally gimped myself to adjust for mmr and to show the value of the ring.

In your example, you're attempting to stack the deck in an unwinnable situation. It's almost like you don't want a fair comparison.

FrankonPC

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

How is it raising the floor if the guy is in low MMR BGs killing other players in his underwear? Should a raised floor get it to where low MMR players can kill a guy in his underwear? Doesn't that seem to show it just allows the higher MMR guy to do even better?

Sir, I belive there is a bit of misaderstanding, probably because om my bad language knowlege.

Let me try to use even simplier words: Guy in a video is highly skilled pvp-player, who kills unexpirienced players(by creating new char to get in low mmr i suppose). He plays the most imbalanced class(manadk). He puts only the most "imbalanced" moments in his video.

So basicly he creates huge disinformations in favor of views and hipe. But this self-centered behavior missleads players to opinion where "thats because of ring"

In my proposal i'm triying to show you, thats less imbalanced class dont get that mach of advantage by using ring. And evtn more - whit equaly skillend and avare players this "trick" probably wont work.

I posted the whole bg. I did 3 bgs total naked, posted the screenshot on the first one, adjusted my "build" because I was lacking sustain(you know, no gear) and then posted the next one when it felt better.

It's literally the ring doing dmg because that's all I'm wearing.

Jaraal

Brrrofski wrote: »

They changed Clever Alchemist so you needed to be in combat to proc it. Because of the potential it was giving gankers.

You can still proc it on demand, so nothing has changed.

You can also give yourself Major Berserk on demand, too. Oakensoul simply makes things slightly less complicated, while still removing access to one gear or weapon set, half your available skills, and limiting you to one ultimate and weapon type.

Faulgor

FrankonPC wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah nothing to see here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9H6FkL6ilE

Yes, there's really nothing to see here. Those people he killed 'by himself' are gonna get killed by him even without the ring. People that he killed spammed execute on full health target, panic spam skills when CC'd, doesn't have unblockable CC while wee bit more competent ones were first destroyed by others and he just finished off the ones with low resources and so on. If he can replicate this on actual competent pvper, I'd incline to believe that the ring is OP because it clearly trivializes the set.

Hell, is barehanded DK OP too? Because when IC patch dropped because I've seen someone drop a player with no gear (weapons too) on his DK against a new pvper. I should have recorded that legendary duel. But I guess with the vid's logic, DK OP, can beat players with no gears. Skill gap clearly isn't the one that was showcased, nope. Not at all.

i hit 8k whips with no other gear but the ring, no dual wield passives, no bloodthirsty etc. show me another setup with a mythic/1pc off trait jewelry and weapons that comes close to that. feel free to go into bgs and show how it can be replicated. ill be here!

There has been a lot of interesting logic used to say why you were able to do that and not because of the ring. I gave up because it's like arguing with a wall

yeah, im not sure why some people's default is to immediately denigrate other players in defense of a set but it's quite common. It also has no bearing on the actual discussion of how powerful oakensoul is compared to other mythics.

Of course this is a lower mmr bg but damage is damage. I thought it was clear that oakensoul gives you the strength of multiple different 5 pc bonuses, so much so that you can literally not run other damage. Major force, courage and berserk is such a strong combination stacked w major heroism and the supplemental buffs. imo you cannot replicate anywhere close to similar dmg with a one piece mythic, off set weapons and offset jewelry.

I haven't played PvP for a while, certainly not since the ring was added, so I'm curious: What would be your specific suggestion to nerf it? There have been many suggestions floating around, but mostly from PvE folk or those that say it shouldn't work in PvP at all.

Specifically I'm wondering if the ring would still be considered OP in PvP if it lost Major Berserk, Major Courage and Major Force, but kept Major Heroism? Because that is certainly the most unique aspect of the ring, whereas the other 3 buffs are doing more or less the same, i.e. more damage.

In my opinion the two strongest buffs on the ring in pvp are major force and major heroism. the ring would still be the strongest mythic if they both went to minor, or if you change major force to minor and then replace heroism with another buff, maybe something like vitality or mending since your amount of heals are lower.

I did a video on it comparing oakensoul to other mythics and even with the lack of a back bar 5 piece it's still modestly 2-3x better than other mythics. removing 2 major buffs entirely wouldn't be a big deal imo.

I'd prefer it if it wasn't just nuked from pvp though. It's currently problematic of course, but more gear variety in that environment is always better, it just has to be closer in relative strength so people cannot abuse certain mechanics. If I were a dev in this situation I'd make one of those adjustments and have a group of players whose opinions I trust provide feedback on what they see in pvp. Also open up a thread for discussion and be ready to make some more tweaks if it's still needed.

Well, my thinking was instead of removing it from PvP entirely, we could consolidate the 3 aforementioned Major buffs - Force, Berserk and Courage - into a new buff that increases damage against PvE enemies. Think Major Slayer, but for overland mobs, too. Those buffs are doing more or less the same thing, increasing damage, so consolidation seems economical, and a PvE exclusive buff seemed more elegant than adding a big fat WARNING: THIS ITEM DOES NOT WORK IN PVP to the description.

That way we might be able to eat our cake (PvE accessibility mythic) and eat it, too (better PvP balance) - if losing those 3 Major buffs would already help to bring it more in line with other mythics in PvP. I can see how further adjustments might be warranted, but it seemed like a good compromise to me.

Wolfpaw

The majority of examples in these posts is the exact reason balance is such a mess.

1. 1v1 scenarios
2. Class X skill hit for X
3. BG examples

All the wrong reasons to balance around.

jaws343

Wolfpaw wrote: »

The majority of examples in these posts is the exact reason balance is such a mess.

1. 1v1 scenarios
2. Class X skill hit for X
3. BG examples

All the wrong reasons to balance around.

Fine, let's ignore all other aspects of possible PVP in the game, including an entire game mode, and focus on just a perfectly optimized 12 man ball group in Cyrodil.

Now, please show me how, a 12 man group can have 100% uptime on every single buff this ring provides. 100% uptime only. And then show me how, that same 12 man group, all running oakensoul, wouldn't be outrageously better.

Riptide

It is one of those things I shake my head at but ultimately shrug.

On one hand theres me, who did vMA as soon as it was released, have done virtually all vet content, and have no problem with builds and such especially given how quick the meta gets put out etc etc.

On the other there is my wife, who I finally dragged into ESO a couple of years ago after training her first in Diablo. I’m delighted she has taken to the game. She still makes an irritated sigh any time even the most trivial enemies attack her. She just wants that mining node or whatever.

This ring is perfect for her, set her up on a one bar build and her quality of life jumped, she is like a goddess overland and nothing whatever threatens her.

And me, well, I just shrug, wear the ring too, and reckon the game is for strolling along with my lady rather than taking any effort whatsoever to play, unless I want to jump into vet DLC dungeons or hardmode trials.

They ran the numbers on crown consumption of the two demographics and made a decision which to prirotize 2-3 years ago. I stopped being irritated they couldn’t summon the substance to cater to both a good while back. Won’t change them, and have to let go of it. Someone internally made an argument that the Elden Rings of the world can’t be competed with and that its a waste of resources to even try to overlap. That argument won over the finance folks so solidly that it all is what it is.

I’m glad I got to enjoy the game when it was a more dangerous world, and that my lady likes it now.

Jaraal

jaws343 wrote: »

Now, please show me how, a 12 man group can have 100% uptime on every single buff this ring provides. 100% uptime only. And then show me how, that same 12 man group, all running oakensoul, wouldn't be outrageously better.

I've noticed that one of the side effects of Oakensoul in Cyrodiil is that a lot less people are running siege shields, since there's not really room for that sort of thing on a one bar build.

jaws343

jaws343 wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

The majority of examples in these posts is the exact reason balance is such a mess.

1. 1v1 scenarios
2. Class X skill hit for X
3. BG examples

All the wrong reasons to balance around.

Fine, let's ignore all other aspects of possible PVP in the game, including an entire game mode, and focus on just a perfectly optimized 12 man ball group in Cyrodil.

Now, please show me how, a 12 man group can have 100% uptime on every single buff this ring provides. 100% uptime only. And then show me how, that same 12 man group, all running oakensoul, wouldn't be outrageously better.

Or, I'll even show it isn't possible to do so with just a few of the strong buffs it provides:

Major Berserk: All conditional armor sets, including sets that require people to die, and a ball group detrimental mythic. Or storm atros, which would require a group of 7? sorcs to provide the buff to all, or everyone is a nightblade using reapers mark and killing a marked target every 5 seconds in combat. So, definitely not 100% uptime here for even 1 group member, let alone all 12.

Major Courage: Spell Power Cure or Olorime in group, with not guarantee of 100% uptime due to many factors at play with either set in combat. But also, likely a buff already being applied in 12 man groups anyways.

Major Force: Well, hope you like rotating warhorns by half your group, or restro ult, or wearing 1 of 2 5 piece sets, saxheel likely being best for one or two in the group, but still no guarantee on 100% uptime as you need to wait for ult gen.

Major heroism: 1 class skill, so everyone would need to be wardens that route. Or, everyone would need to run 1 5 piece set, which only works after a res, or 4 people would have to wear a 5 piece set that has a cooldown and requires a bash every 18 seconds. At best, this buff has a 66% uptime if everyone that is running it is perfectly bashing and the buff is applying on everyone properly.


All of the other buffs just free up bar slots, which also increases opportunity cost in combat by not having to reapply the buffs when the fall off. No build, outside of Oakensoul, in a 12 man group or not, is going to have all of the buffs this ring provides at 100% uptime. And it we are talking only Cyrodil, no 12 man groups even needs their back bar if this set piece gives them all of the buffs.

FrankonPC

Faulgor wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah nothing to see here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9H6FkL6ilE

Yes, there's really nothing to see here. Those people he killed 'by himself' are gonna get killed by him even without the ring. People that he killed spammed execute on full health target, panic spam skills when CC'd, doesn't have unblockable CC while wee bit more competent ones were first destroyed by others and he just finished off the ones with low resources and so on. If he can replicate this on actual competent pvper, I'd incline to believe that the ring is OP because it clearly trivializes the set.

Hell, is barehanded DK OP too? Because when IC patch dropped because I've seen someone drop a player with no gear (weapons too) on his DK against a new pvper. I should have recorded that legendary duel. But I guess with the vid's logic, DK OP, can beat players with no gears. Skill gap clearly isn't the one that was showcased, nope. Not at all.

i hit 8k whips with no other gear but the ring, no dual wield passives, no bloodthirsty etc. show me another setup with a mythic/1pc off trait jewelry and weapons that comes close to that. feel free to go into bgs and show how it can be replicated. ill be here!

There has been a lot of interesting logic used to say why you were able to do that and not because of the ring. I gave up because it's like arguing with a wall

yeah, im not sure why some people's default is to immediately denigrate other players in defense of a set but it's quite common. It also has no bearing on the actual discussion of how powerful oakensoul is compared to other mythics.

Of course this is a lower mmr bg but damage is damage. I thought it was clear that oakensoul gives you the strength of multiple different 5 pc bonuses, so much so that you can literally not run other damage. Major force, courage and berserk is such a strong combination stacked w major heroism and the supplemental buffs. imo you cannot replicate anywhere close to similar dmg with a one piece mythic, off set weapons and offset jewelry.

I haven't played PvP for a while, certainly not since the ring was added, so I'm curious: What would be your specific suggestion to nerf it? There have been many suggestions floating around, but mostly from PvE folk or those that say it shouldn't work in PvP at all.

Specifically I'm wondering if the ring would still be considered OP in PvP if it lost Major Berserk, Major Courage and Major Force, but kept Major Heroism? Because that is certainly the most unique aspect of the ring, whereas the other 3 buffs are doing more or less the same, i.e. more damage.

In my opinion the two strongest buffs on the ring in pvp are major force and major heroism. the ring would still be the strongest mythic if they both went to minor, or if you change major force to minor and then replace heroism with another buff, maybe something like vitality or mending since your amount of heals are lower.

I did a video on it comparing oakensoul to other mythics and even with the lack of a back bar 5 piece it's still modestly 2-3x better than other mythics. removing 2 major buffs entirely wouldn't be a big deal imo.

I'd prefer it if it wasn't just nuked from pvp though. It's currently problematic of course, but more gear variety in that environment is always better, it just has to be closer in relative strength so people cannot abuse certain mechanics. If I were a dev in this situation I'd make one of those adjustments and have a group of players whose opinions I trust provide feedback on what they see in pvp. Also open up a thread for discussion and be ready to make some more tweaks if it's still needed.

Well, my thinking was instead of removing it from PvP entirely, we could consolidate the 3 aforementioned Major buffs - Force, Berserk and Courage - into a new buff that increases damage against PvE enemies. Think Major Slayer, but for overland mobs, too. Those buffs are doing more or less the same thing, increasing damage, so consolidation seems economical, and a PvE exclusive buff seemed more elegant than adding a big fat WARNING: THIS ITEM DOES NOT WORK IN PVP to the description.

That way we might be able to eat our cake (PvE accessibility mythic) and eat it, too (better PvP balance) - if losing those 3 Major buffs would already help to bring it more in line with other mythics in PvP. I can see how further adjustments might be warranted, but it seemed like a good compromise to me.

Yep that seems fine to me as well

kieso

Brokensoul 🙃

AdamLAD

Snipe spammers not even in stealth hitting 10k on each one against a target with 27k physical, swift (10%) 2.7k critical resistance. And 2 damage reduction CP (12%). Someone spamming snipe from 24 meters away hitting 10k each one is absolutely broken. He did NOTHING else but press 1 button and over doing ridiculous amounts of damage. All because of Oakensoul. Something has to be done about this item. In my 5 years of playing this is THEE worst patch I have ever played. Pathetic how this item even got passed PTS for PvP. What an absolute joke lol.

LadyLethalla

I hope that Oakensoul won't be nerfed, because as a player with 300+ ping I have found it has definitely made a difference to my DPS.

But... knowing past mythics history, I feel like that hope is probably pointless.

The3sFinest

AdamLAD wrote: »

Snipe spammers not even in stealth hitting 10k on each one against a target with 27k physical, swift (10%) 2.7k critical resistance. And 2 damage reduction CP (12%). Someone spamming snipe from 24 meters away hitting 10k each one is absolutely broken. He did NOTHING else but press 1 button and over doing ridiculous amounts of damage. All because of Oakensoul. Something has to be done about this item. In my 5 years of playing this is THEE worst patch I have ever played. Pathetic how this item even got passed PTS for PvP. What an absolute joke lol.

You could do this without the ring before, stop blaming everything on Oakensoul. It was even more op in pts, this is the nerfed version. I really hope zos listens to the majority here and just leaves the ring alone and disables it in pvp, instead of always resorting to making sets useless.

katanagirl1

Jaraal wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Now, please show me how, a 12 man group can have 100% uptime on every single buff this ring provides. 100% uptime only. And then show me how, that same 12 man group, all running oakensoul, wouldn't be outrageously better.

I've noticed that one of the side effects of Oakensoul in Cyrodiil is that a lot less people are running siege shields, since there's not really room for that sort of thing on a one bar build.

I thought about trying this in Cyro on my sorc but that was the first thing I would lose since my back bar is for standing by the ram.

I have a bad wrist but I don’t have all the leads yet.

Brrrofski

VaranisArano wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

The problem with the ring is that for much, much less effort you can almost do as well as a two bar setup.

More.

You can do a lot more.

Stx wrote: »

It's so blatantly obvious how overpowered this item is yet still people defend it.

Passive major heroism, major berserk, major courage, AND major force...

It's no wonder gankers are one shotting people with all that frontloaded damage %.

They changed Clever Alchemist so you needed to be in combat to proc it. Because of the potential it was giving gankers.

Now we have this, lol.

They changed Clever Alchemist because of the way gear swapping works. Allowing it to proc outside of combat meant that PC gankers would proc the effect, then use addons to quickly swap into ganking gear, and then blow someone up with all the benefits of CA and none of the downsides.

Giving gankers frontloaded damage wasn't the issue, so much as gankers exploiting an unintended interaction with gear swapping.

Still, even if you proceed it then swapped to another set, it's still LESS damage that you can get with Oakensoul.

And it wasn't a bug fix. It was a change.




Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments:
Spoilerhide
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth

AdamLAD

The3sFinest wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Snipe spammers not even in stealth hitting 10k on each one against a target with 27k physical, swift (10%) 2.7k critical resistance. And 2 damage reduction CP (12%). Someone spamming snipe from 24 meters away hitting 10k each one is absolutely broken. He did NOTHING else but press 1 button and over doing ridiculous amounts of damage. All because of Oakensoul. Something has to be done about this item. In my 5 years of playing this is THEE worst patch I have ever played. Pathetic how this item even got passed PTS for PvP. What an absolute joke lol.

You could do this without the ring before, stop blaming everything on Oakensoul. It was even more op in pts, this is the nerfed version. I really hope zos listens to the majority here and just leaves the ring alone and disables it in pvp, instead of always resorting to making sets useless.

No you couldn't 🤣🤣. In my 5 years of playing ive never ever been hit like that before. You could probably hit someone like that with less resistance and less damage reduction. But absolutely no chance with the resistance ive had over the years. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Roztlin45

Anyone remember sloads ? What about viper sting ? In there pre-nerf hey day.Talk about a one shot. These new sets are nothing compared to.some.when first released. This will pass and people.Will adapt.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Roztlin45 wrote: »

Anyone remember sloads ? What about viper sting ? In there pre-nerf hey day.Talk about a one shot. These new sets are nothing compared to.some.when first released. This will pass and people.Will adapt.

Ooh ooh! Thrassian Stranglers!!

The3sFinest

AdamLAD wrote: »

The3sFinest wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Snipe spammers not even in stealth hitting 10k on each one against a target with 27k physical, swift (10%) 2.7k critical resistance. And 2 damage reduction CP (12%). Someone spamming snipe from 24 meters away hitting 10k each one is absolutely broken. He did NOTHING else but press 1 button and over doing ridiculous amounts of damage. All because of Oakensoul. Something has to be done about this item. In my 5 years of playing this is THEE worst patch I have ever played. Pathetic how this item even got passed PTS for PvP. What an absolute joke lol.

You could do this without the ring before, stop blaming everything on Oakensoul. It was even more op in pts, this is the nerfed version. I really hope zos listens to the majority here and just leaves the ring alone and disables it in pvp, instead of always resorting to making sets useless.

No you couldn't 🤣🤣. In my 5 years of playing ive never ever been hit like that before. You could probably hit someone like that with less resistance and less damage reduction. But absolutely no chance with the resistance ive had over the years. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Google snipe builds from 3+ years ago, you definitely could hit high numbers with simple 5511 builds. Even on tanky players.