Oakensoul isn't getting nerfed

BalticBlues

Yeah, every great Mythic has been nerfed after sales.
So have your fun with it now until next year when they want to sell new shiny toys.

katanagirl1

carly wrote: »

I spent days getting it on my own and as a solo player that is elderly and has limited mobility - this is a useful item for me. I hope they don't nerf it but posts like this one usually result in more posts about nerfing and then when said items do get nerfed, it results in new posts saying 'why did you nerf this'.

It’s awesome that ZOS created this with a certain group of people in mind. I’m not quite ready to go this route yet, I can still do bar-swapping but animation canceling is out of the question. I find myself cutting back the amount of time I can play now, though, and my hands ache a lot.

Surely there is a way to use this item to raise the floor for those who really need it and not provide an easy out for those who don’t need it.

Cuddlypuff

I've never considered 1 bar builds because even 12 skills are never enough, but I don't understand why people want this ring nerfed. Besides major heroism, it doesn't really break any gameplay or outperform any standard 2 bar builds. It's the first mythic that lets new players crutch on it and actually come out to fight in PVP, rather than just making the sweaty farmers even stronger and scaring away more pugs.

Most of the salt seems to be about how the ring enables crit builds now. Crit was absolutely gutted with the Mechanical Acuity nerf. It's still only mediocre with Oakensoul. But high crit / low ttk is healthy for PVP. So what if I get 1 shot ganked with no counterplay, everyone else is too. It'll just shift the meta to more damage sets which is a good thing in general.

Rowjoh

Oakensoul is OP in PVP without a doubt, and will be nerfed because of that.

We all know why it's OP and what happens later down the line!

The balance in PVP has become so bad it's reached a point where unkillable builds are common, and Oakensoul makes 'God Mode' massively more accessible.

An obvious and easy solution would be to make it a PVE item only, or reduce its effectiveness in PVP only.

Derra

joseayalac wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

16k perma Corrosive whips would like to have a word with you.

There's a lot of misinformation about it too, in reality it's more like 20-30% uptime, definitely not "perma".

I encourage you to test it for yourself or watch some footage of an Oakenknight. Still not the strongest DK build out there.

When maximising ult gain you get to about 50% uptime without any kills or non controlable proccs.
Depending on the chosen approach from there it should be quite possible to either reduce the cost enough or improve ult gain from proccs/passives to get pretty close to 100% uptime.

Cuddlypuff

I mentioned above that mythics / sets like Oakensoul are very healthy for PVP balance / activity by raising the floor, but it just needs a few simple tweaks to handle 2 OP edge cases that exist.

1. Perma-ulti uptime builds - remove major heroism.
2. Ganking without pre-buff downtime - put an in combat condition like the recent nerf to molag kena. It doesn't make sense that developers would nerf such a tiny little out of combat pre-buff for the sake of "gank balance" and instead give 7 free MAJOR BUFFS so anybody can let off a ONE BUTTON 40K heavy attack.

As a reformed ganker myself, the fun in the build is the risk/reward balance and outplaying victims with movement. Pressing LMB to kill is just not engaging and falls into the same bucket as ranged bombing where the kills are so easy, distant and detached that they don't feel rewarding.

Pepegrillos

I'd bet that eventually two or three of the major buffs will simply not be available whenever battlespirit is active.

lPeacekeeperl

I will address my thoughts to all who says Oakensoul is OP in PVP without a doubt and, especialy, to them who belives "naked char with only one mythic can outperform everything" and belives video was maid in completely fair enviroment in high mmg against strong oponents(and difenetly not on a new char without any mmr against noobs)

I hope we can discuss problem without unnecessary emotions (we all know feeling from PVP "thing X killed me, unfair,nerf it")


Lets make experiment:
lets grab two equaly expirienced high performance PVPers in duel or BG-like suroundings;
give one of them freedom of choice of 2bar class for winning (so he will pick magDK)
and other get magden with only "broken ring" and, to be more OP, full nostat set

Can you assume results of this "confrontation" ?

In simplier words - some classes was too strong even without ring and become even stronger.
In more clear point of view: some classes need more then one bar to just have enough skills to surviwe in pvp, but others can do dmg,unblokable stun an be mobile using only one button. or be unkillable and kill full emeny stuck, by using one button

One additional thought: some blames ZOS for "making item to sell chapter"... Well, other companyes "nerfs" everithing by releasing new addons with full power creep. Is it better business model for you?

And last thyng adressed to all, who blames ring only because dont have chapter - are you serious?

Jaimeh

It's not getting nerfed because it's an attractive sell point for the chapter.

TechMaybeHic

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

I will address my thoughts to all who says Oakensoul is OP in PVP without a doubt and, especialy, to them who belives "naked char with only one mythic can outperform everything" and belives video was maid in completely fair enviroment in high mmg against strong oponents(and difenetly not on a new char without any mmr against noobs)

I hope we can discuss problem without unnecessary emotions (we all know feeling from PVP "thing X killed me, unfair,nerf it")


Lets make experiment:
lets grab two equaly expirienced high performance PVPers in duel or BG-like suroundings;
give one of them freedom of choice of 2bar class for winning (so he will pick magDK)
and other get magden with only "broken ring" and, to be more OP, full nostat set

Can you assume results of this "confrontation" ?

In simplier words - some classes was too strong even without ring and become even stronger.
In more clear point of view: some classes need more then one bar to just have enough skills to surviwe in pvp, but others can do dmg,unblokable stun an be mobile using only one button. or be unkillable and kill full emeny stuck, by using one button

One additional thought: some blames ZOS for "making item to sell chapter"... Well, other companyes "nerfs" everithing by releasing new addons with full power creep. Is it better business model for you?

And last thyng adressed to all, who blames ring only because dont have chapter - are you serious?

How is it raising the floor if the guy is in low MMR BGs killing other players in his underwear? Should a raised floor get it to where low MMR players can kill a guy in his underwear? Doesn't that seem to show it just allows the higher MMR guy to do even better?

Remathilis

It will be nerfed because PvP will cry that thier source of free AP is gone. When something affects PvE (mist form) they remove it from PvE and keep it in PvP. When something affects PvP, they nerf it to oblivion in all content.

Holycannoli

katanagirl1 wrote: »

carly wrote: »

I spent days getting it on my own and as a solo player that is elderly and has limited mobility - this is a useful item for me. I hope they don't nerf it but posts like this one usually result in more posts about nerfing and then when said items do get nerfed, it results in new posts saying 'why did you nerf this'.

It’s awesome that ZOS created this with a certain group of people in mind. I’m not quite ready to go this route yet, I can still do bar-swapping but animation canceling is out of the question. I find myself cutting back the amount of time I can play now, though, and my hands ache a lot.

Surely there is a way to use this item to raise the floor for those who really need it and not provide an easy out for those who don’t need it.

It's not really an easy out because it halves the available skills.

In my opinion.

ketsparrowhawk

It is absolutely broken in PVP. Feels like the old 25% Malacath days. It will stay in its current state until the next chapter, at which point it will be nerfed.. just like Malacath.

My prediction: Major armor/damage/crit buffs stay major. Everything else becomes minor buffs. Would still be an excellent item.

dinokstrunz

Oh it'll get nerfed again for sure, just a case of when. Gankers are absolutely destroying people with it. It's just like old acuity ganking all over again, people dying in seconds so there's no reason to see why Oakensoul will get changed eventually.

jaws343

Holycannoli wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

carly wrote: »

I spent days getting it on my own and as a solo player that is elderly and has limited mobility - this is a useful item for me. I hope they don't nerf it but posts like this one usually result in more posts about nerfing and then when said items do get nerfed, it results in new posts saying 'why did you nerf this'.

It’s awesome that ZOS created this with a certain group of people in mind. I’m not quite ready to go this route yet, I can still do bar-swapping but animation canceling is out of the question. I find myself cutting back the amount of time I can play now, though, and my hands ache a lot.

Surely there is a way to use this item to raise the floor for those who really need it and not provide an easy out for those who don’t need it.

It's not really an easy out because it halves the available skills.

In my opinion.

Sure, it halves the skills. But, in many cases for PVP, the skills being removed are skills that were only slotted to provide the buffs that the ring now gives. So, for many, that is 5 skills, 5 global cooldowns, and 5 instances of resource drain that they no longer have to account for in combat. Oh, your boundless storm ran out, better spend that mag to refresh it, me, I'll just keep attacking you because I have that buff permanently. Same for Force, same for Brutality.

Kahnak

joseayalac wrote: »

Many people think that because Oakensoul has so many buffs "loaded" into a single piece of gear, that it's completely unbalanced and it will get nerfed soon.

I didn't make this post to discuss particular gameplay aspects of the ring, like, for example, that Oakensoul builds don't have to spend time and resources buffing themselves, that has already been explored elsewhere.

What I want to bring to light is the fact that the ring is raising the "perfomance" floor for a lot of players, but hardly the ceiling. Two bar builds will continue to be the maximized way to play. I know it has been said before, but a lot of people are still asking for nerfs as if the ring was "broken".

The Oakensoul isn't going to break anything because it's not a top performer compared to other setups. It's still gonna take skill and awareness to perform good with it in PvP. It isn't going to beat any good 2 bar dueling builds either.

I have a feeling this thread isn't going to age particularly well.

etchedpixels

joseayalac wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im sure a lot of the top PvPers are using it because it doesn't raise the ceiling at all.

They're using it because One-Bar builds make for popular content right now and also because they're testing it. I've seen some footage of it performing very well in low-MMR battlegrounds and such.

In group content it's not terribly interesting because the buffs should be around anyway, or most of them. For Werewolf it's kind of fun.

The PvP relevance on EU at least is more that the lag is so bad when anything happens that nobody wants to rely on a barswap actually occuring. (EU still hasn't had a server upgrade - NA seems rather better now)

lPeacekeeperl

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

How is it raising the floor if the guy is in low MMR BGs killing other players in his underwear? Should a raised floor get it to where low MMR players can kill a guy in his underwear? Doesn't that seem to show it just allows the higher MMR guy to do even better?

Sir, I belive there is a bit of misaderstanding, probably because om my bad language knowlege.

Let me try to use even simplier words: Guy in a video is highly skilled pvp-player, who kills unexpirienced players(by creating new char to get in low mmr i suppose). He plays the most imbalanced class(manadk). He puts only the most "imbalanced" moments in his video.

So basicly he creates huge disinformations in favor of views and hipe. But this self-centered behavior missleads players to opinion where "thats because of ring"

In my proposal i'm triying to show you, thats less imbalanced class dont get that mach of advantage by using ring. And evtn more - whit equaly skillend and avare players this "trick" probably wont work.

TechMaybeHic

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

How is it raising the floor if the guy is in low MMR BGs killing other players in his underwear? Should a raised floor get it to where low MMR players can kill a guy in his underwear? Doesn't that seem to show it just allows the higher MMR guy to do even better?

Sir, I belive there is a bit of misaderstanding, probably because om my bad language knowlege.

Let me try to use even simplier words: Guy in a video is highly skilled pvp-player, who kills unexpirienced players(by creating new char to get in low mmr i suppose). He plays the most imbalanced class(manadk). He puts only the most "imbalanced" moments in his video.

So basicly he creates huge disinformations in favor of views and hipe. But this self-centered behavior missleads players to opinion where "thats because of ring"

In my proposal i'm triying to show you, thats less imbalanced class dont get that mach of advantage by using ring. And evtn more - whit equaly skillend and avare players this "trick" probably wont work.

But you say it raised the floor. Seems there were DKs also fighting him and he has no armor. How low is this floor if that's still the excuse?

TechMaybeHic

Bottom line is this will not raise the floor much compared to the ceiling. It's a power creep for all. Sure, it saves people who struggle to deal with bar swaps some hassle and I like that intent; but it also saves the better players the same effort, yet they still know how to use positioning, when to be defensive, and how to keep heals up. Along with the buffs they already had to keep up and now do not have to waste GCDs; they are also getting major buffs full uptime that would require a group to have all even some of the time before in major protection, major berserk, major force, major Heroism, Major courage. All for essentially maybe giving up just 1 or 2 abilities tops in tradeoff

lPeacekeeperl

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

But you say it raised the floor. Seems there were DKs also fighting him and he has no armor. How low is this floor if that's still the excuse?

What out my word was interpreted as a "rising floor"?
Pvpv oriented dk, with pvp skils, like fosilize and lead|corosive ult vs maybe pve dk witch standart, maybe in pve sets... I realy dont know how low might be skillfloor, but think

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

All for essentially maybe giving up just 1 or 2 abilities tops in tradeoff

So essentialy problem, again, in fact that some needs only one or two button to win.
There is problem not in a ring, split "high impact abilities". Like separate damage from crowdcontrols and heals. when templar can slow yow, damage and heal themself by 1 button - of course one bar is not problem for him. But if it was 3 separated skill - he stays with only 2 slots, for hal and for mobylity. Seems much more limited.
(same for sorcs with streak, dk's with corrosive armor|leap|fosilize, nb with huge butst from 2 skills+invis)

So why you blame ring and not "onebutton" class design?

ketsparrowhawk

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

But you say it raised the floor. Seems there were DKs also fighting him and he has no armor. How low is this floor if that's still the excuse?

What out my word was interpreted as a "rising floor"?
Pvpv oriented dk, with pvp skils, like fosilize and lead|corosive ult vs maybe pve dk witch standart, maybe in pve sets... I realy dont know how low might be skillfloor, but think

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

All for essentially maybe giving up just 1 or 2 abilities tops in tradeoff

So essentialy problem, again, in fact that some needs only one or two button to win.
There is problem not in a ring, split "high impact abilities". Like separate damage from crowdcontrols and heals. when templar can slow yow, damage and heal themself by 1 button - of course one bar is not problem for him. But if it was 3 separated skill - he stays with only 2 slots, for hal and for mobylity. Seems much more limited.
(same for sorcs with streak, dk's with corrosive armor|leap|fosilize, nb with huge butst from 2 skills+invis)

So why you blame ring and not "onebutton" class design?

Because the class design wasn’t an issue until The Ring showed up. Why redesign the whole game when they can just nerf the ring lol

TechMaybeHic

joseayalac wrote: »

What I want to bring to light is the fact that the ring is raising the "perfomance" floor for a lot of players, but hardly the ceiling.

∆

And that's what you are describing in most posts without saying it

StarOfElyon

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Yeah nothing to see here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9H6FkL6ilE

He's just that good. It's not the ring. Don't you know who he is?

StarOfElyon

EdmondDontes wrote: »

They will nerf oakensoul at some point. Even if it's not until next year so they can push a new mythic item that's even better to boost sales of next years chapter. This is their business model and how it's played out for years now. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Plain and obvious for all to see.

lPeacekeeperl

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Because the class design wasn’t an issue until The Ring showed up. Why redesign the whole game when they can just nerf the ring lol

Are you sure about that? Look at amount necro|NB|warden threads asking for improvements. Look at amount of thread about streak "balance".
There was disbalance and class design issues even before ring. And this disbalance shouldto be fixed, preferably, by nerfing OP classes to general level by separating abilities, deliting sub-effects from them (like get rid dmg and stun from streak, dmg from fosilize, healing from jabs e.t.c.)

Holycannoli

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Oh it'll get nerfed again for sure, just a case of when. Gankers are absolutely destroying people with it. It's just like old acuity ganking all over again, people dying in seconds so there's no reason to see why Oakensoul will get changed eventually.

Wouldn't Sea-Serpent's Coil prevent that?

Maybe the focus in PvP should be Sea-Serpent's Coil with a defensive set? Oakensoul will probably be used by glass cannon builds and Sea-Serpent's Coil seems designed to counter exactly that.

Stratforge

joseayalac wrote: »

The Oakensoul isn't going to break anything because it's not a top performer compared to other setups. It's still gonna take skill and awareness to perform good with it in PvP. It isn't going to beat any good 2 bar dueling builds either.

How experienced are you at dueling?

Oaken should be nerfed immediately but who knows if it will be.

ketsparrowhawk

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Because the class design wasn’t an issue until The Ring showed up. Why redesign the whole game when they can just nerf the ring lol

Are you sure about that? Look at amount necro|NB|warden threads asking for improvements. Look at amount of thread about streak "balance".
There was disbalance and class design issues even before ring. And this disbalance shouldto be fixed, preferably, by nerfing OP classes to general level by separating abilities, deliting sub-effects from them (like get rid dmg and stun from streak, dmg from fosilize, healing from jabs e.t.c.)

We could debate until infinity about whether a certain class/ability is op or not.. and no matter what changes are made these debates will continue. There are some balance issues, but true balance will never happen as that would ruin the business model. There are changes I would like to see made but I think the overall design of classes is fine. Everyone is good at different things and fills a different niche. Not everyone has to be equally matched in every scenario.

ketsparrowhawk

Ex: NB’s having a lot of damage packed into 2 abilities works because they lack other things in their toolkit. But thanks to Oaken they no longer lack those things. So they get a disproportionate benefit. It’s the ring that’s the problem. Not NB’s toolkit.