Fed up with the Hesitation to Give Frost Warden a Win

SEINTDARKNES

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh yes we remember, the Morrowind trailer guy casting frost mage spells which do not exist on the Warden class

It was a super hype chapter though. Back then it was nothing but excitement for chapters

The first thing i think when i see launching frost spells was it's a frost battle mage!

But the worst part was the warden only had 1 frost damage skill and the ultimate xD

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

For example I don't think a lot of people use expansive frost because you don't need a big area of effect, at worse you will cast the hability 1 more time so i don't see the point on using expansive frost.

You don't want to bark up that tree, I've had so many healers crucify me over suggesting reworking Expansive Frost Cloak, but if they say just gave the range to Ice Fortress and made the other morph something interesting like being melee'd while cloak is active chills the attacker and reduces their movement speed by 30% , I'd be down for that

Yeah, the skill is super boring but healers do use expansive and tanks use ice fortress.

LeHarrt91

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Watching over the entire video, it only thing that actually made it to the abilities was the Bear. We didn't get the Frost Bolt thing or the Big Ice Shell Move, that would have actually been a cool ability. You might be able to argue the big AoE Frost Blast was an Amped up Northern Storm, but still there was some missed potential for sure

I feel like the big Ice tornado in the animation is a cinematic version of the old Permafrost that froze/ stunned enemies.

BlossomDead

Yes please! My Breton Warden was built with the frost fantasy in mind and even though I spent a lot of time farming vDSA for a perfected ice staff I only do pew pew damage.

Whenever I see the numbers output it feels like I'm shooting a water gun.

Time to make ice hit like a truck, baby!

SEINTDARKNES

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Watching over the entire video, it only thing that actually made it to the abilities was the Bear. We didn't get the Frost Bolt thing or the Big Ice Shell Move, that would have actually been a cool ability. You might be able to argue the big AoE Frost Blast was an Amped up Northern Storm, but still there was some missed potential for sure

I feel like the big Ice tornado in the animation is a cinematic version of the old Permafrost that froze/ stunned enemies.

But it looks so cool like a frost nuke or something xD

Frost mini nuke for ultimate? Maybe like frost comet but the blast comes from your body like in the video, i know i know i dream a lot xD

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Watching over the entire video, it only thing that actually made it to the abilities was the Bear. We didn't get the Frost Bolt thing or the Big Ice Shell Move, that would have actually been a cool ability. You might be able to argue the big AoE Frost Blast was an Amped up Northern Storm, but still there was some missed potential for sure

I feel like the big Ice tornado in the animation is a cinematic version of the old Permafrost that froze/ stunned enemies.

But it looks so cool like a frost nuke or something xD

Frost mini nuke for ultimate? Maybe like frost comet but the blast comes from your body like in the video, i know i know i dream a lot xD

Eh, i think for a frost nuke, comet is fine. the only other ultimate i think we should get that does frost dmg should be a damage type change for bear.

emilyhyoyeon

Ice tanking isn't even consistent with previous TES games. Ice magic is destruction magic. Magicka ''tanks'' use other schools of magic. It's so sad they changed ice for tanking in mid-ESO just to cut corners.

Also, designing viable frost sets is cool but a big help for frost DPS builds would be to rework the ancient knowledge passive for all three elements. I definitely think ZOS should start there.

Faulgor

I don't know man, Frost Wardens seem in a better place than Shock Sorcerers.

ESO_Nightingale

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't know man, Frost Wardens seem in a better place than Shock Sorcerers.

Certainly, there's no argument there from me. however, we still lack the representation of damage skills within our own class when it's supposed to be the frost class, there's a lot of arguments to be made about shock sorcerers and how they really need support, for that i 100% back you. But at the same time, that doesn't invalidate our own points.

Faulgor

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't know man, Frost Wardens seem in a better place than Shock Sorcerers.

Certainly, there's no argument there from me. however, we still lack the representation of damage skills within our own class when it's supposed to be the frost class, there's a lot of arguments to be made about shock sorcerers and how they really need support, for that i 100% back you. But at the same time, that doesn't invalidate our own points.

Fair enough. It's just like you pointed out, there have been several improvements for frost wardens over the years, and considering how seldom ZOS gives us what we want, my frost warden almost feels spoiled.
Not in the way that he's on par with proper builds, of course he isn't. Just compared to other neglected builds.

Besides finally making Arctic Blast a worthwhile stun, I still hope they'll give us a Frostbite Spider morph for our shalks. It just makes too much sense not to.

In general, instead of constantly reworking old skills, I wish they would just add new morphs. The morph system promised so much potential, but it remains virtually unused. Where's the harm in having 3 or 4 morphs per skill, or a 3rd morph stage? You can only have one morph per skill anyway, doesn't matter if it's 2 choices or 20. Just give us more choices, ZOS!

ESO_Nightingale

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't know man, Frost Wardens seem in a better place than Shock Sorcerers.

Certainly, there's no argument there from me. however, we still lack the representation of damage skills within our own class when it's supposed to be the frost class, there's a lot of arguments to be made about shock sorcerers and how they really need support, for that i 100% back you. But at the same time, that doesn't invalidate our own points.

Fair enough. It's just like you pointed out, there have been several improvements for frost wardens over the years, and considering how seldom ZOS gives us what we want, my frost warden almost feels spoiled.
Not in the way that he's on par with proper builds, of course he isn't. Just compared to other neglected builds.

Besides finally making Arctic Blast a worthwhile stun, I still hope they'll give us a Frostbite Spider morph for our shalks. It just makes too much sense not to.

In general, instead of constantly reworking old skills, I wish they would just add new morphs. The morph system promised so much potential, but it remains virtually unused. Where's the harm in having 3 or 4 morphs per skill, or a 3rd morph stage? You can only have one morph per skill anyway, doesn't matter if it's 2 choices or 20. Just give us more choices, ZOS!

after this pts concludes i'll be making a post about destruction staves as weapons seem to be the next port of call for zenimax in "helping lesser used morphs", in it i'll include ideas and painpoints for both shock and frost. i just don't know enough about sorcerer to really offer legitimate solutions, but i do know a lot about the destruction staff. so hopefully i can help there.

Mr_Stach

I think a large problem with Destruction Staff is the Meta Mindset, people gravitate to Fire because it dos the most damage in every situation, where Shock & Frost lend to more utility focus with Brittle and Vulnerability. Personally I think it's fine that Fire does more damage, but I don't think the Utility provided by Brittle and Vulnerability provide enough to equal that extra damage.

Minor Brittle - This gets to the point where it doesn't get the full value of of +10% Crit Damage, in a raid situation if you are specced right you will get to about 130% Crit Damage, making half of Minor Brittle useless and Major Brittle complete overkill.

Minor Vulnerability: +5% extra damage is great since it doesn't have a cap like Crit Damage, but the extra 5% Damage, which ALL healers tend to run also applies to the FIre Staffs user any way so he's still ahead in the game.

Personally I don't know how to fix the issue, you could say that Minor & Major Brittle increase the Crit Damage Cap which would make having a Frost Staff mandatory by at least one Warden in a raid, but that might be too strong.

Shock is still outside my expertise so I'm all ears for opinions

SEINTDARKNES

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't know man, Frost Wardens seem in a better place than Shock Sorcerers.

Certainly, there's no argument there from me. however, we still lack the representation of damage skills within our own class when it's supposed to be the frost class, there's a lot of arguments to be made about shock sorcerers and how they really need support, for that i 100% back you. But at the same time, that doesn't invalidate our own points.

Fair enough. It's just like you pointed out, there have been several improvements for frost wardens over the years, and considering how seldom ZOS gives us what we want, my frost warden almost feels spoiled.
Not in the way that he's on par with proper builds, of course he isn't. Just compared to other neglected builds.

Besides finally making Arctic Blast a worthwhile stun, I still hope they'll give us a Frostbite Spider morph for our shalks. It just makes too much sense not to.

In general, instead of constantly reworking old skills, I wish they would just add new morphs. The morph system promised so much potential, but it remains virtually unused. Where's the harm in having 3 or 4 morphs per skill, or a 3rd morph stage? You can only have one morph per skill anyway, doesn't matter if it's 2 choices or 20. Just give us more choices, ZOS!

I think they can make that the normal skill without morphs can have effects like a morph, that way we could have mor optios because at the beginning almost all the skill have one morph for stam and one for magicka but with the hybridization that doesn't matter that much so maybe ir we have 3 options could be better?

Tryxus

Faulgor wrote: »

Besides finally making Arctic Blast a worthwhile stun, I still hope they'll give us a Frostbite Spider morph for our shalks. It just makes too much sense not to.

Mr_Stach

hmmmmm I wouldn't consider waiting 5 seconds for a Stun a "Worthwhile Stun".

Also if they just step back you have to recast, it's such a bad change

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

hmmmmm I wouldn't consider waiting 5 seconds for a Stun a "Worthwhile Stun".

Also if they just step back you have to recast, it's such a bad change

Wdym, why don't you like waiting an eternity for something other classes do instantly?

Mr_Stach

Just wait till a mDK reflects your stunning frost bolts back to you from Slab, then we'll really be having fun

Necrotech_Master

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Just wait till a mDK reflects your stunning frost bolts back to you from Slab, then we'll really be having fun

DK wings dont actually reflect projectiles anymore, they fire a return projectile just like crystal slabs now and reduce the dmg you take from the ranged hit, but you would still be the one getting the stun

1h/shield ult or defensive posture are the only things i know that can actually reflect projectiles right now (usually the 1h/shield ult is what usually gets me a lot with my own poison injections lol)

Mr_Stach

Ah.... I don't really play DK much but that's good to know

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Ah.... I don't really play DK much but that's good to know

Changed a long time ago.

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

hmmmmm I wouldn't consider waiting 5 seconds for a Stun a "Worthwhile Stun".

Also if they just step back you have to recast, it's such a bad change

Wdym, why don't you like waiting an eternity for something other classes do instantly?

I can wait 5 seconds to stun my enemies... And probably i will be dead at that point xD

LeHarrt91

but also reflects cant be re-reflected. So Slab would still hit.

SEINTDARKNES

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

but also reflects cant be re-reflected. So Slab would still hit.

Are you sure? I remember playing ping pong with dks or other wardens xD

Mr_Stach

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

I think we can play ping pong but if we can do it who will be stun? The fist person to get the reflect projectile or the first person to drop the shields?

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

I think we can play ping pong but if we can do it who will be stun? The fist person to get the reflect projectile or the first person to drop the shields?

It'd stun both of the players.

Mr_Stach

It should be a Draw 2 situation where it just adds up the stun durations. Whelp I'm stunned for 5 minutes..... that sucks

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

I think we can play ping pong but if we can do it who will be stun? The fist person to get the reflect projectile or the first person to drop the shields?

It'd stun both of the players.

If that's the case i want to clarify that playing ping pong sounds fun but in a real fight will be really annoying, you will be giving free cc to everyone and if you encounter other warden you will get stun too.

I think this can have very hard repercussions in pvp for example imagine if for some reason warden become so popular that a large part of the community play as warden like rn dks on live, well imagine everyone using slab, this could have some hard repercussions and ppl can be so annoyed with the skill that they could opt to don't play with skills at range so we can assume we literally just erase range style of the game.

It could be very hard that realistically happen but it is there.

Necrotech_Master

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

I think we can play ping pong but if we can do it who will be stun? The fist person to get the reflect projectile or the first person to drop the shields?

It'd stun both of the players.

If that's the case i want to clarify that playing ping pong sounds fun but in a real fight will be really annoying, you will be giving free cc to everyone and if you encounter other warden you will get stun too.

I think this can have very hard repercussions in pvp for example imagine if for some reason warden become so popular that a large part of the community play as warden like rn dks on live, well imagine everyone using slab, this could have some hard repercussions and ppl can be so annoyed with the skill that they could opt to don't play with skills at range so we can assume we literally just erase range style of the game.

It could be very hard that realistically happen but it is there.

if a lot of people started using wardens with this change, playing a mag build might become very difficult because of the constant cc breaks burning stamina, since mag toons dont get a lot of cost reduction there nor a large pool

might also make some of the red cp such as slippery for the free cc break and other red slottables that give benefits while under effect of cc/extend duration become very interesting