Fed up with the Hesitation to Give Frost Warden a Win

Vrienda · April 2022

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

ESO_Nightingale · April 2022

Vrienda wrote: »

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

It's gotta stay as an animal due to the name of the line. But yeah, screaming cliff racer needs to have a reworked secondary effect if it ever hopes to match Cutting Dive's huge dps. They're also far too slow to and the off balance proc condition is genuinely awful.

ESO_Nightingale · April 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

So that means we need to have a Warden Ping Pong Match, too bad the damage doesn't accumulate, that could get ridiculous.

crys slab should still ping pong slab projectiles.

I think we can play ping pong but if we can do it who will be stun? The fist person to get the reflect projectile or the first person to drop the shields?

It'd stun both of the players.

If that's the case i want to clarify that playing ping pong sounds fun but in a real fight will be really annoying, you will be giving free cc to everyone and if you encounter other warden you will get stun too.

I think this can have very hard repercussions in pvp for example imagine if for some reason warden become so popular that a large part of the community play as warden like rn dks on live, well imagine everyone using slab, this could have some hard repercussions and ppl can be so annoyed with the skill that they could opt to don't play with skills at range so we can assume we literally just erase range style of the game.

It could be very hard that realistically happen but it is there.

if a lot of people started using wardens with this change, playing a mag build might become very difficult because of the constant cc breaks burning stamina, since mag toons dont get a lot of cost reduction there nor a large pool

might also make some of the red cp such as slippery for the free cc break and other red slottables that give benefits while under effect of cc/extend duration become very interesting

Yeah the idea of giving slab a stun in the first place brings up so many issues for fighting against warden, i don't understand why they went ahead with it in the first place. It's almost like they just implement ideas without truely thinking of the consequences.

Vrienda · April 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

It's gotta stay as an animal due to the name of the line. But yeah, screaming cliff racer needs to have a reworked secondary effect if it ever hopes to match Cutting Dive's huge dps. They're also far too slow to and the off balance proc condition is genuinely awful.

I meant more like make the cliff racer be a stun or snare while the ice tree gets the spammable.

ESO_Nightingale · April 2022

Vrienda wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

It's gotta stay as an animal due to the name of the line. But yeah, screaming cliff racer needs to have a reworked secondary effect if it ever hopes to match Cutting Dive's huge dps. They're also far too slow to and the off balance proc condition is genuinely awful.

I meant more like make the cliff racer be a stun or snare while the ice tree gets the spammable.

yeah, that'd be a great option and would help to separate the playstyle of magden and stamden just a little bit which it's really been needing.

SEINTDARKNES · April 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

It's gotta stay as an animal due to the name of the line. But yeah, screaming cliff racer needs to have a reworked secondary effect if it ever hopes to match Cutting Dive's huge dps. They're also far too slow to and the off balance proc condition is genuinely awful.

I meant more like make the cliff racer be a stun or snare while the ice tree gets the spammable.

yeah, that'd be a great option and would help to separate the playstyle of magden and stamden just a little bit which it's really been needing.

Yeah birds morphs are really weird I don't know wihy if you have a melee morph do you need to used at distance and the magicka need to used at larger distances but shalks doesn't have that kind of ranges.

Mr_Stach · April 2022

Hmmm I was playing with an idea to the Magic Morph doing a longer line of stalks. If they did that using Birds wouldn't be as bad, except it's still slow

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Hmmm I was playing with an idea to the Magic Morph doing a longer line of stalks. If they did that using Birds wouldn't be as bad, except it's still slow

Deep Fissure doesn't need a longer line. It's nature as a frontal aoe restricts its comfortable range to be more mid/melee. It wouldn't make too much of a legitimate difference. Honestly while i was against it in the past I'm going to relent, because it'd probably be much more interesting at this point if deep fissure wasn't a direct burst, but instead a high burst short duration frost damage DoT that would allow us to have a different playstyle based on the morph similar to how crystal weapon and fragments are for sorc.

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I don't main a warden and probably never will due to sunk cost with my two 'mains'. But I would -ADORE- an Ice mage DPS build. It's a fantasy I really love, tanking is cool and all but god I just wanna sling ice. Maybe swap out the cliff racer spammable and give it another affect so we can have an ice spammable? Just -something- to make the frost tree more than it's passives.

It's gotta stay as an animal due to the name of the line. But yeah, screaming cliff racer needs to have a reworked secondary effect if it ever hopes to match Cutting Dive's huge dps. They're also far too slow to and the off balance proc condition is genuinely awful.

I meant more like make the cliff racer be a stun or snare while the ice tree gets the spammable.

yeah, that'd be a great option and would help to separate the playstyle of magden and stamden just a little bit which it's really been needing.

Yeah birds morphs are really weird I don't know wihy if you have a melee morph do you need to used at distance and the magicka need to used at larger distances but shalks doesn't have that kind of ranges.

i spoke to rich lambert in-person back in late 2019 about dive. it's still in the same state which is super sad. the design is still heavily flawed.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Yeah I think the Range/Off Balance thing should go. Sure off balance happens so you get those procs but hiding the "special thing" behind Range is super weak. I have the same issue with Stalking Blastbones.

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Yeah I think the Range/Off Balance thing should go. Sure off balance happens so you get those procs but hiding the "special thing" behind Range is super weak. I have the same issue with Stalking Blastbones.

Yep. Was added seemingly randomly. I've said in the past, we have no legit way to guarentee a proc of the ranged off balance thing. It only counts the range when it hits so you could be more than 7m away when you cast it but 40 years later when it finally hits you're only 1-6m or so away so it doesn't work. It's completely anti-melee range which sucks for pvp when so much of the combat is in melee range in the first place. Meanwhile our spammable does this and our stun takes 500 years to stun in melee range exclusively. No wonder this class is a design disaster. They've just not commited to 1 direction and it shows.

SEINTDARKNES · May 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Hmmm I was playing with an idea to the Magic Morph doing a longer line of stalks. If they did that using Birds wouldn't be as bad, except it's still slow

Deep Fissure doesn't need a longer line. It's nature as a frontal aoe restricts its comfortable range to be more mid/melee. It wouldn't make too much of a legitimate difference. Honestly while i was against it in the past I'm going to relent, because it'd probably be much more interesting at this point if deep fissure wasn't a direct burst, but instead a high burst short duration frost damage DoT that would allow us to have a different playstyle based on the morph similar to how crystal weapon and fragments are for sorc.

I don't think shalks need more range but the change i would do to the skill is:

Shalks appear in the direction your pointing view and not where your character model is seeing because sometimes you get stun or light cc or launch and you shalk miss because you are facing other direction and you need to wait another 3 seconds to try to hit them with the skill

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Hmmm I was playing with an idea to the Magic Morph doing a longer line of stalks. If they did that using Birds wouldn't be as bad, except it's still slow

Deep Fissure doesn't need a longer line. It's nature as a frontal aoe restricts its comfortable range to be more mid/melee. It wouldn't make too much of a legitimate difference. Honestly while i was against it in the past I'm going to relent, because it'd probably be much more interesting at this point if deep fissure wasn't a direct burst, but instead a high burst short duration frost damage DoT that would allow us to have a different playstyle based on the morph similar to how crystal weapon and fragments are for sorc.

I don't think shalks need more range but the change i will so to the skill is:

Shalks appear in the direction your pointing view and not where your character model is seeing because sometimes you get stun or light cc or launch and you shalk miss because you are facing other direction and you need to wait another 3 seconds to try to hit them with the skill

that kinda removes the counterplay though. it's balanced as it being based on the direction your character is facing.

kojou · May 2022

Ah a Warden complaint thread.

I will add to the list.

The chances of getting anything changed are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000, but we can dream right?

If I were in charge of Warden combat and skills this is what I would do:

Magicka morphs that deal damage deal frost damage.
Stamina morphs that deal damage deal poison damage.
Change the animations to represent Icy and poison effects respectively
Make dive not have a delay
Scorch and morphs use the Haj Moto tunneling animation instead of bugs that pop out of the ground and disappear
Fetcher Infection, instead of doing more damage on the second cast, makes a "puddle" at the targets feet. If the target fails to leave the puddle in 1 second the DoT damage is doubled.
Northern Storm has one morph that is DPS based (no major protection with more damage) and one that is defense based (Major Protection and Stun)
There are people with better ideas than me on Arctic Wind, but I would want a DPS and a defense morph of it as well
Get rid of (or shorten) the delay on Frozen Gate make the damage proc and other effects hit after the teleport

I'm sure there are other implications of these changes, and numbers that would need to be updated to balance, but this would make Warden a lot more enjoyable for me.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

kojou wrote: »

Ah a Warden complaint thread. I will add to the list.

The chances of getting anything changed are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000, but we can dream right?

If I were in charge of Warden combat and skills this is what I would do:
Magicka morphs that deal damage deal frost damage.

Stamina morphs that deal damage deal poison damage.

Change the animations to represent Icy and poison effects respectively

Make dive not have a delay

Scorch and morphs use the Haj Moto tunneling animation instead of bugs that pop out of the ground and disappear

Fetcher Infection, instead of doing more damage on the second cast, makes a "puddle" at the targets feet. If the target fails to leave the puddle in 1 second the DoT damage is doubled.

Northern Storm has one morph that is DPS based (no major protection with more damage) and one that is defense based (Major Protection and Stun)

There are people with better ideas than me on Arctic Wind, but I would want a DPS and a defense morph of it as well

Get rid of (or shorten) the delay on Frozen Gate make the damage proc and other effects hit after the teleport

I'm sure there are other implications of these changes, and numbers that would need to be updated to balance, but this would make Warden a lot more enjoyable for me.

It seems like Zos has been leaning heavily into Bleed changes for Stamden, so instead of Poison (which is a heavy Stam DK niche) having Stamden receiving Bleed Passives would be unique for Warden

Lalothen · May 2022

I've never really understood why cliff racer & shalks were classified as magic damage and not frost. It feels like they shoehorned a magic damage boost into piercing cold because of it as well.

Other classes don't really suffer from so much damage type bastardisation; DKs can be all-fire, NBs & Temps all-magic, Sorcs almost all-shock (they just lack a shock spammable - though frags is good enough to overlook that niggle, and at least they've got two viable shock ults to choose from)... Necros are somewhat of a mish-mosh of frost, fire & shock, but I'd say that fits well with the overall identity of the class anyway.

There's no reason wardens shouldn't be able to be all-frost; it's the only "pure" damage type build missing from the magicka build spectrum.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Lalothen wrote: »

I've never really understood why cliff racer & shalks were classified as magic damage and not frost. It feels like they shoehorned a magic damage boost into piercing cold because of it as well.

Other classes don't really suffer from so much damage type bastardisation; DKs can be all-fire, NBs & Temps all-magic, Sorcs almost all-shock (they just lack a shock spammable - though frags is good enough to overlook that niggle, and at least they've got two viable shock ults to choose from)... Necros are somewhat of a mish-mosh of frost, fire & shock, but I'd say that fits well with the overall identity of the class anyway.

There's no reason wardens shouldn't be able to be all-frost; it's the only "pure" damage type build missing from the magicka build spectrum.

Warden is also the only class with Damage Buffs to two Magicka-esqe damage types, Frost AND Magic, It felt really odd, like Warden didn't know hat exactly it wanted to be, Frost, Magic, Tank, Healer.

There's a lot of misunderstanding thinking Warden is essentially a Druid, being one with nature, but in actuality they are Bards, "Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality." The Damage Type can really be whatever they want.

kojou · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Ah a Warden complaint thread. I will add to the list.

The chances of getting anything changed are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000, but we can dream right?

If I were in charge of Warden combat and skills this is what I would do:
Magicka morphs that deal damage deal frost damage.

Stamina morphs that deal damage deal poison damage.

Change the animations to represent Icy and poison effects respectively

Make dive not have a delay

Scorch and morphs use the Haj Moto tunneling animation instead of bugs that pop out of the ground and disappear

Fetcher Infection, instead of doing more damage on the second cast, makes a "puddle" at the targets feet. If the target fails to leave the puddle in 1 second the DoT damage is doubled.

Northern Storm has one morph that is DPS based (no major protection with more damage) and one that is defense based (Major Protection and Stun)

There are people with better ideas than me on Arctic Wind, but I would want a DPS and a defense morph of it as well

Get rid of (or shorten) the delay on Frozen Gate make the damage proc and other effects hit after the teleport

I'm sure there are other implications of these changes, and numbers that would need to be updated to balance, but this would make Warden a lot more enjoyable for me.

It seems like Zos has been leaning heavily into Bleed changes for Stamden, so instead of Poison (which is a heavy Stam DK niche) having Stamden receiving Bleed Passives would be unique for Warden

I don't care what damage type it is as long as it is consistent.

Subterranean Assault is Poison and before they decided to change the bear to bleed it was Physical, and only Cutting Dive was Bleed, so going one way is as good as another. If a class has a consistent damage type then it is easier to create build synergy with.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

1000% Agree, that's one of my biggest issues with Warden is the lack of consistency for damage and the weird Stuns they are trying to give Warden. If I want to stun something, I don't want to jump through a bunch of hoops, it just needs to happen.

SEINTDARKNES · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

1000% Agree, that's one of my biggest issues with Warden is the lack of consistency for damage and the weird Stuns they are trying to give Warden. If I want to stun something, I don't want to jump through a bunch of hoops, it just needs to happen.

If the warden is supposed to be a frost mage why their Magicka skill are not frost, is really weird and more because in the trailer they show for magicka skills only frost spells.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Not even a mention in the notes. Wow, that is low.

SEINTDARKNES · May 2022

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Not even a mention in the notes. Wow, that is low.

You know they say they need more communication with the players but in reality I don't even see an effort, that's sad.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Normally I would say it takes two to tango, but we've kinda been giving feedback and yelling from the rooftops for 5 years

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Normally I would say it takes two to tango, but we've kinda been giving feedback and yelling from the rooftops for 5 years

i wonder why they've hesitated for so long

Mr_Stach · May 2022

They're still stuck on balancing Arctic Blast, making it a bad heal, then making it a bad stun.

I'd love for them to look at the rest of Winter's Embrace like the useless Frozen gate, whole skill just gathering dust with zero changes for 5 years iirc

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

They're still stuck on balancing Arctic Blast, making it a bad heal, then making it a bad stun.

I'd love for them to look at the rest of Winter's Embrace like the useless Frozen gate, whole skill just gathering dust with zero changes for 5 years iirc

People keep saying to make it's heal scale off max mag/max stam but that's such a silly suggestion when you look at existing green balance skills that all scale using this already. We do not need a 6th heal that scales like this. The need for a self heal is high, absolutely. I 110% agree, BUT, there are existing skills within that line that should be helped out in order to fill that role. Arctic Blast on the other hand should focus into the DPS skill role, as we still after so many years only have 4 non ultimate DPS skill options with only 1 of them being frost based. The least amount of damage skills of any class in the game. The other thing we need as an offensive ranged and on-demand stun, this can be combined with an arctic blast rework, but it could also be included on another lesser used morph. Crystallized Slab was not the right idea for the stun because it's yet another reactive designed stun. if that skill was reworked to have an on-demand activated portion with a ranged stun, then that would work. but just slapping a stun to a skill doesn't make it a good idea. i really hope zos can turn this around next week or the week after but i REALLY doubt that they will unless they make a comment on it.

Kalik_Gold · May 2022

Give this man an Ice Hadouken!

ESO_Nightingale · May 2022

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Give this man an Ice Hadouken!

if it stunned, i'd take it.

Whiskey_JG · May 2022

Although I dont really care about stuns since im not a pvp boi, most of the frost skills make u scratch your head in wonder of what was the original objective of this skill line. It seems to want to do everything and nothing at the same time.

For dps, there is only 1 usable morph. And ironically your main spammable actually comes from destro staff skill line which although I really welcomed, i found pretty funny.

Out of all the skills the one which really makes me sad is northern storm. It makes less dps than elemental rage or meteor, and does not provide any useful buff.

These recent patches I have seen ZoS give some attention to frost dps with the addition of some decent sets but they need to really to think about the end objective. The skill line needs to be redesigned in line with this end objective.