Fed up with the Hesitation to Give Frost Warden a Win

ESO_Nightingale

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Isn’t warden supposed to be a druid / ranger?

and a "master of ice"

Anti_Virus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Isn’t warden supposed to be a druid / ranger?

and a "master of ice"

I mean the class logo is a bear paw, but yeah

ESO_Nightingale

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Isn’t warden supposed to be a druid / ranger?

and a "master of ice"

I mean the class logo is a bear paw, but yeah

i suppose you could say that has no.... bearing on it

Anti_Virus

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Isn’t warden supposed to be a druid / ranger?

and a "master of ice"

I mean the class logo is a bear paw, but yeah

i suppose you could say that has no.... bearing on it

That’s a good one I’ll give you that. But seriously though Im not opposed to more ice mage themes but tbh I really think ZOS made the warden to be a nature- ranger/ druid class.

Imo Necromancer should have been the Ice themed class.

Mr_Stach

"Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality."

Warden's are magical storytellers. Non of the pets are actually animals in Lore.

We're closer to Bards than Druids tbh

Anti_Virus

Mr_Stach wrote: »

"Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality."

Warden's are magical storytellers. Non of the pets are actually animals in Lore.

We're closer to Bards than Druids tbh

Warden has 2 nature themed skill lines.

Mr_Stach

But at this point it really doesn't matter. I'd prefer the Ice Stuff, but at this point make Magden Cohesive. Other classes you're able to mix and match different skills for different builds, but at this point They are basically the same across the board for Warden DPS. It's boring.

Mr_Stach

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

"Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality."

Warden's are magical storytellers. Non of the pets are actually animals in Lore.

We're closer to Bards than Druids tbh

Warden has 2 nature themed skill lines.

Sure. If you want to be a Druid, be a Healer

If you want to be a Ranger, be a Stamina Warden

Mag Warden *should* be the Frost Aspect.

You should have more than 1 playstyle. Necro has the same issue. Mag vs Stam are just carbon copies of each other.

Anti_Virus

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But at this point it really doesn't matter. I'd prefer the Ice Stuff, but at this point make Magden Cohesive. Other classes you're able to mix and match different skills for different builds, but at this point They are basically the same across the board for Warden DPS. It's boring.

Yeah the whole 1 tank 1 dps 1 heal skill line sucks for warden and necro, plus winters embrace skill line seems out of place as its an ice based skill tree on a class that is nature centric.

Anti_Virus

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

"Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality."

Warden's are magical storytellers. Non of the pets are actually animals in Lore.

We're closer to Bards than Druids tbh

Warden has 2 nature themed skill lines.

Sure. If you want to be a Druid, be a Healer

If you want to be a Ranger, be a Stamina Warden

Mag Warden *should* be the Frost Aspect.

You should have more than 1 playstyle. Necro has the same issue. Mag vs Stam are just carbon copies of each other.

I think either the other 2 skill lines should be reworked on warden to fit the ice theme, like an ice damage skill like and healing one. Or straight up remove ice from warden and give it to necro.

Ice plus plants doesn’t make sense tbh

Aldoss

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

Mr_Stach

Well quick tidbit on Warden, they are Agents of The Green, who are basically Emissaries of Y'ffre. Y'ffre was the God of Nature and Stories but also a prominent figure to the Bosmer (Wild Hunt is basically the Animal Skill Line), Breton (Wyrd Sisters represent the Green Balance line), and the Snow Elves (Representing the Winter's Embrace Line).

There's quite a bit of reason behind each tree being present. The actual skills are the issue.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

sure, it's just not explained why they wanted to give it minor breach

Greystag

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

sure, it's just not explained why they wanted to give it minor breach

Feels bad when the amount of feedback we give them is huge and the buff they give us is almost pointless and very random.

Mr_Stach

Greystag wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

sure, it's just not explained why they wanted to give it minor breach

Feels bad when the amount of feedback we give them is huge and the buff they give us is almost pointless and very random.

It might seem random to give Deep Fissure Minor Breach, but it does have a Niche for Tanks. Now Warden Tanks can toss their SnB out and just Tank with Ice Staff. Having Minor and Major Breach in an AoE is useful in that regard.

But still zos has been just terrible in responding to our feedback. They've responded to all the other feedback it seems. But it feels like we're being ignored.

Greystag

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Greystag wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

sure, it's just not explained why they wanted to give it minor breach

Feels bad when the amount of feedback we give them is huge and the buff they give us is almost pointless and very random.

It might seem random to give Deep Fissure Minor Breach, but it does have a Niche for Tanks. Now Warden Tanks can toss their SnB out and just Tank with Ice Staff. Having Minor and Major Breach in an AoE is useful in that regard.

But still zos has been just terrible in responding to our feedback. They've responded to all the other feedback it seems. But it feels like we're being ignored.

Yup, I personally think the change isn't bad. But us not getting good Winter's Embrace DPS abilities -besides WR- because it's the "tanking tree" and then getting an animal companions morph that seems to be geared towards tanks feels cheap.

ESO_Nightingale

Greystag wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Greystag wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Well in group content everything will already be Breached so, there's no reason to run unless you are

1. Tanking
2. Soloing
3. PvPing
4. Really. REALLY Lazy <- That's the me one

i suppose, but i have no idea why they gave it minor breach because they didn't comment on it and they're giving us the cold shoulder. so it's just randomly there for now i suppose. if they did it for tanking reasons it sure would be nice if they made arctic blast viable for pve dps since they're gonna give animal companions another tanking skill.

In my specific PvP realm, I'm not displeased with this shalk change. I currently use a charged absorb stam glyph for my minor breach and this change will let me free up that for a different status effect.

The change is still light years away from the work that needs to be done with magdens though.

sure, it's just not explained why they wanted to give it minor breach

Feels bad when the amount of feedback we give them is huge and the buff they give us is almost pointless and very random.

It might seem random to give Deep Fissure Minor Breach, but it does have a Niche for Tanks. Now Warden Tanks can toss their SnB out and just Tank with Ice Staff. Having Minor and Major Breach in an AoE is useful in that regard.

But still zos has been just terrible in responding to our feedback. They've responded to all the other feedback it seems. But it feels like we're being ignored.

Yup, I personally think the change isn't bad. But us not getting good Winter's Embrace DPS abilities -besides WR- because it's the "tanking tree" and then getting an animal companions morph that seems to be geared towards tanks feels cheap.

feels extremely cheap. arctic blast is so incredibly close to becoming a legit dps skill for pve but it just can't do that yet.

Mr_Stach

"We've Heard your Feedback and have removed Arctic Blast from the game, there are currently no plans to replace it"

Aldoss

After trying a lot of builds this week, it's just disappointing to realize how weak a lot of these magden class skills are vs other class skills.

Resistant flesh, honor the dead, twilight matriarch, and coag all hit for several thousand more compared to enchanted. Enchanted is pretty much only on my bar sometimes to get the coveted minor buffs that are impossible to find elsewhere. I'm not entirely sure that those buffs alone are worth the drop in absolute value, especially when budding seeds is a stronger group heal and better group utility via the synergy at either half cost (if you pre buff and let it sit the 6seconds) or for only marginally more magicka via the double cast (to get the burst heal instantly).

Budding seeds is a very interesting and unique skill for our class, but sometimes the casting of it completely gets voided, causing the user to sit there trying to lay it down, sometimes for multiple gcds. This is true for all targeted area effects, of which wardens have three. Instant cast abilities are superior always. I wish budding were group healer oriented and had the targeted area as it is now while corrupted was instant cast in a radius around your toon (such as templar ritual), instant burst heal, with the defile and cowardice effect lingering for 6seconds.

Hell, maybe tweaking this morph is how wardens get an instant stun? Remove the cowardice, targets within the radius become paralyzed for 3 seconds from the corrupting pollen and then the delayed burst heal after 6 seconds, allowing for counterplay by making the caster choose whether to stay in the relatively small radius or chase the target they're trying to burst. 6 seconds is a long time in PvP to stay still, especially with how tied our burst window is to shalks.

Vines is an amazing skill and I love both morphs. Given the proposed nerfs to templar bubble, vines is now a better heal comparatively and that's a massive win, but only in a vacuum. The synergy and utility of ritual is still better than budding and the options available make for easier build choices for plars.

Embrace is very much only for full heals.

I'm not even going to mention arctic. It's been off my bar for two patches and with no comment regarding the proposed changes to it next patch, they might as well delete it.

The problem I have with all these healing skills is how little bar space there is to use them. They seem to all synergize with each other, which ends up pigeonholing magdens into full on healers. If you were to only have room on the bar for one skill, budding wins by a long shot. If that's decided, and it already performs the role of burst healing better than enchanted, then enchanted becomes nothing more than a pre-buff skill, completely nullifying it as a burst heal. The synergy of vines plus budding is very lucrative and I'm happy to have it, which means they become constants.

Radiating Regen is too strong right now to not run. Wardens wouldn't be wardens without netch and we need the frost armor, so bam, the back bar has now been set in stone, if you're not a full heal. It really doesn't change at all because it can't without huge sacrifices.

Frost wardens have no "good" IMO frost damaging abilities, making us completely and hopelessly tied to the Master's frost staff, limiting build options, lest we lose out completely on our Glacial Presence and some much needed spell damage.

Fetcher being one of the strongest dots in the game (especially after the two casts) means it needs to stay, otherwise you need to replace it with the only "useful" frost skill, Winter's Revenge, which suffers from being too small and too easy for targets to remove themselves from, forcing the caster to continuously waste resources moving it against targets who spam race against time.

Winter's benefit of higher chance of chill is nullified by the fact that both morphs of Destructive Touch already instantly apply the chilled status effect. Winter's really only becomes useful in big packs of combat where people ignore you and don't realize how much damage it does compared to other similar aoe skills. This alone does not make it worth staying the course.

Wardens wouldn't be Wardens without shalks so that stays. While I'm appreciative of the minor breach change, it still means that the first set up of any magden is weak compared to other classes. Shalks is supposed to be our burst and we have to time all our abilities around it. Forcing our biggest debuff into it means that we have to waste one cast and properly target it to make it hit in order to be granted the burst benefit from it for the next 10 seconds. I don't think any other class is so gimped like this? If we had more in our kit that provided pressure, then maybe I'd say this is a useful tradeoff. All other class burst options don't require such focused attention in their targeting.

With no access to a class snare removal and being relatively slow because if we don't go full arcane or full infused, we'd lose too much dmg, we need to run Race Against Time, not only for the snare removal, but also because minor force is a requirement for a class who specifically has passives tied to chill.

Given our reliance on crit damage thanks to those passives, we have to run Lotus or be gimped out of these passives or we slot Camo Hunter to get back the Minor Berzerk that we lose from dropping Bird of Prey.

This crit damage reliance because of the passive limits our gear choices. I was tempted to play with Medusa because of the passive minor force, but I still cannot drop Race Against Time because the snare immunity is too valuable in PvP, making this stat line useless to a Magden build. The only other good choices of crit chance or damage come from low armor sets.

Yes this is a wall of text, but I hope this write up is helpful at outlining just how pigeonholed the "Master's of Ice" are. There are no real choices when it comes to being a "Master of Ice" because there aren't enough choices that make any sense. The skill choices aren't tweaks, they're requirements and it's sad.

I'm ultimately worried that if Magdens aren't addressed in this upcoming patch, we will remain the underdogs for at least another year.

Mr_Stach

It's a Wall of Text, but a good one. A lot of good insights on the Nature's Embrace. I don't heal much so it's good to get someone from that mindset in feedback.

I always loved Entangling Roots on Druid back in my Wow days and I wish that the Nature Tree had some sort of CC built in.

Benzux

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

"Wardens are defenders of the Green, master storytellers whose nature tales become magical reality."

Warden's are magical storytellers. Non of the pets are actually animals in Lore.

We're closer to Bards than Druids tbh

Warden has 2 nature themed skill lines.

Sure. If you want to be a Druid, be a Healer

If you want to be a Ranger, be a Stamina Warden

Mag Warden *should* be the Frost Aspect.

You should have more than 1 playstyle. Necro has the same issue. Mag vs Stam are just carbon copies of each other.

I think either the other 2 skill lines should be reworked on warden to fit the ice theme, like an ice damage skill like and healing one. Or straight up remove ice from warden and give it to necro.

Ice plus plants doesn’t make sense tbh

Popping in here to say that I'd argue Winter's Embrace makes perfect sense to have as the Warden's third skill line. Winter is a very important part of nature, as are all the four seasons. To give one example, there are certain species of plants that require hibernation/something similar over the course of winter as a part of their life cycle.

If we want to talk about the whole "theming" part of Warden, then the biggest issue lies with Animal Companions, IMO. I get that the class was released with the Morrowind expansion, but I think ZoS kinda shot themselves in the foot when they made all the abilities there themed around fauna native to Morrowind (Except for the bear, which are in fact not found anywhere in Morrowind). If they weren't so adamant about restricting themselves to Morrowind animals, there could be a lot more flavour added to the class and its skills, which would solve one of the main gripes Warden has had since the beginning: very little distinction between Mag/Stam when it comes to what class skills you pick. Everything is the same, just a different colour, which is lame. Pre-release Warden had a burrowing Haj Mota instead of Shalks, and NPCs still use that "ability". Make that the stam morph and you've already made a big difference.

But, this thread is about Ice Warden, and having lurked in the forums for the past few weeks, keeping an eye on the changes and all these threads... I will now come and say that the title of this thread sums up my thoughts pretty well. ZoS doesn't know what Arctic Blast is supposed to be any more, they've completely forgotten about Frozen Gate's existence, and have too much of an obsession with Ice = tanking.

Maybe next year's new big feature could be more weapon skill lines, with an actual, proper one for Magicka tanking/support (Illusion Staff is what I've been theorycrafting about, Frenzying enemies as a taunt, fearing/charming them as CC etc.), but until they implement something like that, I unfortunately don't think ZoS is going to move away from that last pain point.

Mr_Stach

I know I've explained it before but each Tree Represents the Followers of Y'ffre, the Bosmer, Breton, and Snow Elves. I think that Warden losing any aspect of each tree would be a huge misstep.

I'm even fine with Defensive Skills being in the Ice tree, but there should also be some offensive options there as well.

Wolfpaw

Mr_Stach wrote: »

It's a Wall of Text, but a good one. A lot of good insights on the Nature's Embrace. I don't heal much so it's good to get someone from that mindset in feedback.

I always loved Entangling Roots on Druid back in my Wow days and I wish that the Nature Tree had some sort of CC built in.

Sure do miss my Boomkin, I also wish that nature had cc.

Mr_Stach

Yeah I think with Warden Especially I think they got tunnel vision when they designed it, it's very TANK / DAMAGE / HEALER . I think that every tree should have something that benefits every type of build.

Aldoss

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Yeah I think with Warden Especially I think they got tunnel vision when they designed it, it's very TANK / DAMAGE / HEALER . I think that every tree should have something that benefits every type of build.

Except that the "Master's of Ice" have 0 ice skills in their damage tree... cuz reasons...

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Yeah and blast isn't going to be next patch lol

Mr_Stach

You wound me with your words, hopefully Zos sees the light at the end of the angry warden feedback

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

You wound me with your words, hopefully Zos sees the light at the end of the angry warden feedback

The silence is deafening.

Greystag

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Kekw