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The night-capping in Cyrodiil needs to stop.

  • hafgood
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    Aah, it's that time of the month again already? The time where everyone demands that Cyro is only available during the hours they get to play

    I've news for you, not everyone plays the same time of day as you, and for some you play in their night so you are guilty of night capping.
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  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    Tbh. The problem is not with people playing "when they have time". It is totally fine. You play the game when you want to play and you happen to have some free time for it.

    The problem is that what usually happens is that PvP activity (who wins a PvP Campaign) is determined by PvD (Player vs Door) or rather by a PvE activity. This is basically what happens during "night cap" aka "playing when there is a day for me" or whatever you call it / whatever is the case for you.

    Other factions are empty, while one faction still has like 2 bars of population and captures everything without any resistance from orher factions.

    Getting AP that way is fine, no problem with that. But getting same amount of "potenial points" and keeping that point score advantage for later is kinda game breaking. It is not a rocket science that it kinda nullifies the whole point of AvAvA & playing for objectives, as the whole PvP aspect of Cyrodiil can be ignored. Not to mention that very often scrolls are almost impossible to recover later on by other factions (that also play "when they have time" & "it is a day for them") as they are strategically placed in hard to reach Keeps / Castles / Forts.

    I do believe that at this point it is obvious that potential points system is flawed and should be overhauled. Imho it should somehow scale with current population. So it would check what is the population (attackers vs defenders) and apply a de-buff depending on the difference.

    Simple example: AD is pop-locked and DC is empty. If AD captures DC objective, they get 1 point for each objective and 10 point for DC scroll.

    If population difference was taken into account, server would check AD population vs DC population at the moment AD captures a DC objective, and depending on the population difference apply a proper debuff.
    So for example if AD is full & DC is empty, it might be like 10x less potential point. So, while normally you get 1 point per objective - you would need 10 objectives to get 1 point or 1 enemy scroll captured that way. The way to "reset" this debuff would be to lose & retake objective when populations are more or less equall.

    Of course, it would not be always 10x less points. It would 9x, 8x, 7x, 6x, 5x, 4x, 3x, 2x etc, depending on the population difference. It would require to re-scale population indicator, so it would have 10 bars instead of 3. This would of course not affect your "native" objectives (home kees, scrolls etc). AP gain would remain unchanged.

    I think it would make things more fair.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 4, 2022 12:30PM
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  • hafgood
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    Aah, so once again it comes down to "my time is worth more that your time because I play when the server is full and you don't."

    I'm not buying what you are selling
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  • Veinblood1965
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    hafgood wrote: »
    Aah, it's that time of the month again already? The time where everyone demands that Cyro is only available during the hours they get to play

    I've news for you, not everyone plays the same time of day as you, and for some you play in their night so you are guilty of night capping.

    I was thinking the same thing. Of all the things to complain about this? Maybe ZoS should just shut down PVP except when I'm online?
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  • TechMaybeHic
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    Get rid of low pop bonus and in stead, bring in over pop penalty.
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  • Iriidius
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    hafgood wrote: »
    Aah, it's that time of the month again already? The time where everyone demands that Cyro is only available during the hours they get to play

    I've news for you, not everyone plays the same time of day as you, and for some you play in their night so you are guilty of night capping.

    I was thinking the same thing. Of all the things to complain about this? Maybe ZoS should just shut down PVP except when I'm online?

    And if i dont go to Cyrodiil a few days Cyrodiil is shut down for a few days? Nobody wants to shut down Cyrodiil whenever he is not playing. The Problem is if a group from one faction is taking every keep in Cyrodiil in the middle of the night/early morning when everybody from the other factions is sleeping and NOBODY from my factions is defending the keeps. Also not everyone playing at Night is a Nightcapper, only if you play at night to PvDoor.
    You can also play against the PvDoorers, look for a Campaign with night PvP, try IC or Battlegrounds. But most Nightcappers dont want real PvP, they want PvDoor and Xv1.
    And everyone seeing Nightcapping being more important than PvP as a problem and looking for a solution gets accused of wanting to shutdown Cyrodiil whenever he is not playing.
    Edited by Iriidius on March 6, 2022 1:36PM
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  • alberichtano
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    hafgood wrote: »
    Aah, so once again it comes down to "my time is worth more that your time because I play when the server is full and you don't."

    I'm not buying what you are selling

    Look, the only fair solution is that Cyro is only up when everyone is online. Everyone. If everyone is not online, it will be unfair to the people offline, and hence Cyro will be down. Isn't that the most righteous solution? >:)
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  • hafgood
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    Can I ask please of those so anti nightcapping how do you define nightcapping?

    If its the taking of keeps at night then if they are being taken by people during their DAY it's not nightcapping is it? It's playing the game in their daytime surely?

    And if they are playing in their day and you are playing in their night then you are actually nightcapping even though its your daytime??

    You see how ludicrous this is?

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  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    hafgood wrote: »
    Can I ask please of those so anti nightcapping how do you define nightcapping?
    The term is very misleading as (obviously) we have time zones and day for some one is a night for some one else.

    Like I have said many times - players play when they want. When they have time. The issue imho is that Cyrodiil is a PvP zone and Alliance War is a PvP Campaign. Therefore, I think it is quite reasonable to assume that since it is a PvP activity... then it should be won by doing um... PvP, right ? I think it is quite obvious.

    The problem is that because of how Scoring system works (potential point) the best way (or should I say BIS or Meta way) to win a PvP campaign is to wait for the prime time to end (when factions are more or less empty) and then capture everything with pretty much no resistance.

    Basically, you do PvE to win in PvP.


    Night capping or morning capping has nothing to do with day / night, but rather the fact that one faction stacks when others are empty and then they capture everything & hold it for long hours. Often, later on when other players login, it is very hard to recover scrolls and impossible to gather points to win a campaign, whne you meet an actual PvP objective defenders.

    Basically, If you don't PvE when population is low, then you are not going to win in PvP. <- There, this is an issue, or maybe even a design flaw. It devaluates PvP aspect of campaign and players dont see the reason to play for objectives anymore. Hence you see players not caring at all if their scrolls are in the base or not (why to bring them back, since they will be gone in 2 - 3 hours ?). Zerging that random keep at the edge of the map makes more sense.

    Personally, I think there is a way to kinda distinguish if some one is logging in at night/morning their time (3 am or 10 am in the morning) to do a classic night / morning cap & if some one is actually playing when they can.

    You just look at population indicator. If one faction is higher than others (and others are empty), then there is a decent chance that they are doing night / morning cap. But, if we have lower population, but more or less spread between factions (2 bar DC, AD & EP) - then those are probably players who play for their faction when they have time for it. Because... it would be weird if for example all of those players from different time zones (non-server time) all mained one, same faction, right ?
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 6, 2022 8:12PM
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  • VaranisArano
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    All this "you have to PVE to win in PVP" is like...yeah? If you wanna call Alliance War objectives like resources and keeps "PVE", well, you do you.

    You have to capture objectives to win an AvAvA game mode where the score is based on objectives, not fighting other players. If all you do is scrap with players at Alessia Bridge, you aren't contributing anything to the score, even though you are doing PVP.

    "Nightcapping" or other forms of complaining about the faction score being being dominated at low pop times is essentially complaining "It's harder for me to capture objectives during prime time, so my contributions should count for more even though I did less."
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  • Iriidius
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    I think most players are not nightcapping because night is their primetime and they can do nothing else there. They are playing at night to PvDoor(Nightcap).

    Edit 11.05.2022
    But probably all the players playing at night are from australia and just randomly playing for the same alliance.
    Edited by Iriidius on April 10, 2022 10:33PM
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  • hafgood
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    Like I have said many times - players play when they want. When they have time. The issue imho is that Cyrodiil is a PvP zone and Alliance War is a PvP Campaign. Therefore, I think it is quite reasonable to assume that since it is a PvP activity... then it should be won by doing um... PvP, right ? I think it is quite obvious.


    Yes Cyrodiil is a PvP zone. However, the alliance war is not won by killing other players. It is won by taking keeps, outposts, resources, towns and scrolls.

    Being in charge of them scores you points.

    Killing other players does not score you any campaign points but does reward AP.

    Taking those objectives is harder when other players are on as they can defend them or can take them back off you. But the aim is the same to control the objectives.

    When there are fewer players on, yes, the objectives are easier to capture. But then they are also easier to take back or to defend as groups are smaller.

    But at the end of the day Cyrodiil is an objective game, don't like the Aussies (for instance) turning the map? Recruit some to your alliance, get them fighting on your side and even the odds a bit. It's only ever one sided because we, the players, make it one sided. It is up to us, as players, to make it more even sided.

    I hate the entitled opinions that anyone's time is more important than the time of other people simply because they (the person complaining) plays in what they consider to be prime time
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  • S0Z0H
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    Even if you live in NA, there's west coast and east coast times zones. So ya, it's not all because of "EU" coming in to NA on their own time. U got plenty of west coast American players that wake up when u go to sleep
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  • PuddingZebra
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    How about instead of fighting over wether nightcap is good or not, we start talking about what a bad idea having 2 centralized servers is for a world-wide MMO of this scale.

    If you work a nightshift, do you complain that the local grocery store is closed just because "generally people are awake during the day"?


    Nightcapping will always be a thing as long as the "megaserver" system stays in place.
    What bothers me about nightcapping is the mentality behind it, or the degree of it. Sure, take some scrolls, get your emp-fix. But be a good sport and dont go gatekeeping other factions. if it's 5 AM and you see that there's 1-2 AD trying to get their home-keep resources, dont go and get your 12 man group to defend it. Give some equal fights that make it fun for both sides. let factions get their home keep back at 3:30 AM if you just took their scroll. Just be a good sport. No one likes running from base to Rayles lumbermill just to get killed by 10x your numbers.



    You see, I am a Pink Flying Pudding Zebra.
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  • gameswithaspoon
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    hafgood wrote: »
    Can I ask please of those so anti nightcapping how do you define nightcapping?

    If its the taking of keeps at night then if they are being taken by people during their DAY it's not nightcapping is it? It's playing the game in their daytime surely?

    And if they are playing in their day and you are playing in their night then you are actually nightcapping even though its your daytime??

    You see how ludicrous this is?

    Because it’s not their “day.” It’s the same group of players who log out after loosing a few fights in prime time and then log in to pvdoor after they know most American players have logged out. (Pc NA server)

    If you login to check who is doing pve in Cyrodiil at 4 AM you find it’s not some mythical Australians.

    What would help is if the scrolls went back to being worth only 1 point per eval. The change at Vardenfel where they became worth 20 or 10 points is when nightcapping began.
    Spoon-no-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Templar AD BWB
    Spoon-ware-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Stamplar AD Bahlokdaan
    Guild Leader Imperium of the Eagle Ravenwatch NA-PC
    Takes Drive-Thru Orders for This is a Wendy's.
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  • hafgood
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    Because it’s not their “day.” It’s the same group of players who log out after loosing a few fights in prime time and then log in to pvdoor after they know most American players have logged out. (Pc NA server)

    If you login to check who is doing pve in Cyrodiil at 4 AM you find it’s not some mythical Australians.

    What would help is if the scrolls went back to being worth only 1 point per eval. The change at Vardenfel where they became worth 20 or 10 points is when nightcapping began.[/quote]

    And? they are taking PvP objectives. They are doing nothing wrong, nothing anyone cannot do. The ones getting angry just need to do the same. If you know the enemy is going to attack at 2am, and if it means that much to you, get online at 2am and defend your keeps, and maybe take some of theirs.
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  • gameswithaspoon
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    hafgood wrote: »

    And? they are taking PvP objectives. They are doing nothing wrong, nothing anyone cannot do. The ones getting angry just need to do the same. If you know the enemy is going to attack at 2am, and if it means that much to you, get online at 2am and defend your keeps, and maybe take some of theirs.

    [snip]

    After six years, this “avoid people and PVE when no one is looking” results in less PvP in a PvP zone and has gutted populations on maps other than Grey Host. I am speaking with six years of experience.

    And I’m not saying the realm should be closed or anything. I am saying that Cyrodiil should return to a territory war by lowering the reward for waiting for the major guilds to log so you can pile the scrolls up. That means the reward for avoiding PvP would go from 80 extra points per eval to 6.

    [edited for minor baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 13, 2022 6:14PM
    Spoon-no-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Templar AD BWB
    Spoon-ware-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Stamplar AD Bahlokdaan
    Guild Leader Imperium of the Eagle Ravenwatch NA-PC
    Takes Drive-Thru Orders for This is a Wendy's.
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  • Vaoh
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    Literally just need more people pvping again. Cyrodiil population caps have been drastically reduced since launch and the amount of active PvP players left is embarrassingly low.

    Cyrodiil was designed to have a massive amount more active players than it currently does.
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  • xFocused
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    Vaoh wrote: »
    Literally just need more people pvping again. Cyrodiil population caps have been drastically reduced since launch and the amount of active PvP players left is embarrassingly low.

    Cyrodiil was designed to have a massive amount more active players than it currently does.

    In order for that to happen they would have to fix the servers and all of the other broken things causing players to stop playing.
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  • Flangdoodle
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    I've given up caring who wins the campaign. Sure I had some of the same gripes a few years ago, but once I realized that the campaign **always** goes to the Alliance with the most (or most determined) night cappers - and that's true whether it's my alliance or one of the others, it just didn't matter anymore. Sure I'm happy if we do win and I'll take the rewards, but other than that, it's a futile concern.

    I just try to do the best I can or my group can while we're on, and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when we're not. Life's too short.
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  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here​.

    Thank you for your understanding.
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    Staff Post
  • Wolfpaw
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    Some additions I would like to see in Cyrodiil.

    1. Purchasable/upgradable (AP cost & limit to 3*) home keep's wandering boss, similar to Deadlands wandering boss.
    2. Resources no longer automatically upgrade keeps, players must escort resources to keeps.
    Edited by Wolfpaw on March 15, 2022 7:37PM
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  • Tiphis
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    It basically kills the camp for awhile because nobody wants to play for very long. Doesn't even have to be nightcapping but anytime where 1 faction is dominant to an overwhelming degree kills pvp for awhile.

    So right now ad has been poplocked for a few hours and dc and ep are at 1-2 bars. Ad owns pretty much everything except for maybe a keep and a few resources. I (AD) log on and have nothing to do but other log on and are excited that we are winning and will be more likely to stay on longer. But dc and ep log on, can't do anything because they are outnumbered at least 3 or 4 to 1 at minimum everywhere they go, and log off.

    Low pop bonus needs to be fixed and make it so it had actual gameplay advantages.
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  • DrSlaughtr
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    The campaign scoring (but not AP earned for players) should decreases based on server population. Happens on XB too. EP has a monster lead in BR because 8 players hold the map over night into mornings when most players go to bed.
    I drink and I stream things.
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  • gariondavey
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    The campaign scoring (but not AP earned for players) should decreases based on server population. Happens on XB too. EP has a monster lead in BR because 8 players hold the map over night into mornings when most players go to bed.

    Yes, and I know so many people who say this, too.
    @ZOS_Kevin
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
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  • johnicus
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    "Yes Cyrodiil is a PvP zone. However, the alliance war is not won by killing other players. It is won by taking keeps, outposts, resources, towns and scrolls.'

    Ok so change it so only AP earned by player kills count....
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  • Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
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    It's the Alliance's population disparity which is to blame mostly.

    Anyone on PC EU greyhost notices the massive differences in population from one alliance to the next.

    I advocate for a fixed/allocated alliance with a queue as you wish to enter PvP, based on current population.
    I think the time of groups/guilds has come to and end be it via performance or lack of newer players.

    It's time to mix things up and break old bad habits.
    Edited by Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo on April 2, 2022 4:05PM
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  • NeeScrolls
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    Youyouz06 wrote: »
    It's the Alliance's population disparity which is to blame mostly..
    meh , i personally couldn't care less about "night" capping or day capping or random capping or whenever 24/7 ...but i do find all the rampid faction swapping + points-trading utterly ridiculous (not to mention totally immersion-breaking :/ )

    i realize there's that 1 alliance-locked Campaign , but tbh i sorta don't understand why ALL campaigns aren't also alliance-locked like they used to be? ( i forget why/when it was changed )
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  • DrSlaughtr
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    Points earned for the scoreboard should scale with the population. If there are only 50 people on across all factions at 6 am, they shouldn't increase the scoreboard at the same rate as hundreds of players fighting at 10 pm. AP earned should be the same, especially considering they're getting low pop AP bonus, so I don't think it would deter play.

    Just IMO.
    I drink and I stream things.
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  • Iriidius
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    If the underpopulated alliance is taking their homekeeps back at night because they get zerged down in the evening it is not that bad and can help to balance the campaign. But if the dominant alliance is taking every keep and every scroll in the middle of the night(like DC on Blackreach PC EU) or in the early morning(like AD PC EU) and gatekeeping after his it is really asozial and destroys PvP. The campaigns are so unbalanced that it would be best to delete them all and create new ones where the players are all mixed.
    Edited by Iriidius on April 6, 2022 12:22AM
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