PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

alberichtano

KMarble wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

So here's a hopeful thought: if the work required to fix zone guide and NPC reactions can happen server-side / database-side, could the developers still be fixing those over the following work week despite the ongoing Stadia certification?

It wouldn't be the first time they've slipped in some stealth changes between the last PTS incremental and launch, and they don't have to recertify the game client every time they do a server maintenance.

I admit this is probably wishful thinking, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of them launching with broken dialog and zone guide. I've never known ZOS to be irrational. If the whole point of deleting character data was to prepare for an upcoming surge in player activity, that seems an odd time to leave the game in such a noticeably broken state.

If I'd read something along these lines in the Q&A:

"Thank you for all the feedback on the PTS sub-forum. Unfortunately there wasn't enough time during this testing cycle to fix all the quests that were affected by AWA, but that doesn't mean we won't. We ask for your patience while we fix them as time permits."

My reaction would be different, and I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't like to make decisions without having all the information I can gather, so for now I'll do nothing (= no more purchases - chapter(s), subscription and crown store items - from me) and will keep an eye on possible fixes in the live game and notes in the forum. If I see some action towards fixes, I'll sub again.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Hey, silver lining time. No more :

• "You have no idea how long I've been looking for you"
• "Dragons...In your own homeland...."
• "How would you like to do something worthwhile?"

-sigh-. Yeah, this one is not appeased either.

It's been a very long PTS cycle, but if memory serves, at least Stuga is still looking for your alts.

Patience?? Not to be rude, but they still haven't fixed the old bugs! Tons of lore books that are still unreachable (the one in the temple of Mnem is just the most obvious), for example. Simple small bugs that have been in the game since... well, forever.

And we are to believe that fixing these bugs will have precedence over other concerns? No. Sorry, but I have a really hard time believing that.

shroomshade

So I’m really late to the party here, as I did not previously have a forum account and had to put in a ticket to get one created.

But boy oh boy do I find this while AWA fiasco absolutely infuriating. I started playing ESO at console launch and switched to PC back in 2017. While I don’t like the idea of account wide achievements in general, I do understand that a lot of the player base does and it’s something I am willing to deal with. I do think it takes away a lot of replayability though, particularly from a certain kind of player.

But I digress. The way it’s currently being implemented seems to leave a lot to be desired. The Q&A was really time deaf and cold, and it really doesn’t address half of the major questions about this. I kind of assume the zone guide and character interaction problems are bugs that will be addressed, but we of course can’t know for sure because ZOS won’t address it. And I if, heaven forbid they are not bugs and ZOS thinks it appropriate to ship it to live like that, then I don’t even know, I guess I’d just be at a loss for words.

I don’t have much to add that others haven’t already said, but i will say that I do think the change could be reversible without rolling back the severs. I don’t know much about ESO’s infrastructure, but I am a database professional and I can certainly think of ways that referential integrity could be retained to roll back such a change without adversely impacting Neely created character data. Again though, this does assume they maintain the original character data in some capacity in the short term until they are 100% sure they don’t need it.

Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR: put me in the “against” AWA column, but if they fix the problems with zone guide, broken quests and character interactions, then I can deal with it.

deleted221106-002999

Kesstryl wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I wish there was someone higher up I could get in communication with. I can't believe Bethesda, creator of the Elder Scrolls series, is even allowing this. Do they even know?

From TOS:

tos wrote:

If You have any questions about these Terms of Service or otherwise need to contact ZeniMax for any reason, You can reach us at:

ZeniMax Media Inc. 1370 Piccard Drive Rockville, Maryland 20850 USA

Attn: ZeniMax Customer Support

Website: help.bethesda.net

Telephone:

From North America dial 1-844-ZENIMAX (1-844-936-4629);

From outside the U.S., +1-410-220-2853 (International rates may apply, please contact Your carrier for details)

There's also an email for complaints buried deeply in that, too: ODRnotice@zenimax.com

Good luck; the way the tos is written expect to be 'thanked for your feedback' - I leave it to your imagination to work out exactly what that means.

Thank you, I did send an email. I might print the email and send it snail mail too. If this goes through without fixing the NPC random encounters, I'm probably going to call them too. I don't want to see the integrity of the game world destroyed for my alts like this. I've already cancelled my sub, but I would sub again if they fix this. Again @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MattFiror please decouple random NPC dialogue encounters from account wide achievements and move them to end of zone story arc completion in each individual character's quest log!

And thank you, too - I was initially too cynical but have decided to follow your lead and emailed, too.

alberichtano

KMarble wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

So here's a hopeful thought: if the work required to fix zone guide and NPC reactions can happen server-side / database-side, could the developers still be fixing those over the following work week despite the ongoing Stadia certification?

It wouldn't be the first time they've slipped in some stealth changes between the last PTS incremental and launch, and they don't have to recertify the game client every time they do a server maintenance.

I admit this is probably wishful thinking, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of them launching with broken dialog and zone guide. I've never known ZOS to be irrational. If the whole point of deleting character data was to prepare for an upcoming surge in player activity, that seems an odd time to leave the game in such a noticeably broken state.

If I'd read something along these lines in the Q&A:

"Thank you for all the feedback on the PTS sub-forum. Unfortunately there wasn't enough time during this testing cycle to fix all the quests that were affected by AWA, but that doesn't mean we won't. We ask for your patience while we fix them as time permits."

My reaction would be different, and I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't like to make decisions without having all the information I can gather, so for now I'll do nothing (= no more purchases - chapter(s), subscription and crown store items - from me) and will keep an eye on possible fixes in the live game and notes in the forum. If I see some action towards fixes, I'll sub again.

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Hey, silver lining time. No more :

• "You have no idea how long I've been looking for you"
• "Dragons...In your own homeland...."
• "How would you like to do something worthwhile?"

-sigh-. Yeah, this one is not appeased either.

It's been a very long PTS cycle, but if memory serves, at least Stuga is still looking for your alts.

Wait... does that mean she will never stop, even if you have finished the questline? If it goes on achievements, and it is already taken...

alberichtano

Jaraal wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

This, so much. Just like that the game changed from being a wonderful escape and help for me to contributing to a negative mental state. I’m not bashing anyone or anything. I’m saying how much I love the game, the world, the characters and how I interact with all of those with my different characters, each of which are important to me with their own stories which have evolved with which quests they’ve done and the characters and world they’ve interacted with along the way.

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Not being able to fully do quests and have all NPC interactions possible on new characters, having the world prize or revile them for choices made with other characters, completely unacceptable, game-breaking and, for me, heart-breaking.

That is the worst part for me and I feel like crying myself.

ESO is not just a game. It's an actual world full of real people where we can make friends and escape the stresses of these past 2 years. Part of that escape is creating characters that we can "become" for a little while when we log in.

I do realize that our characters aren't "real" but the relaxation and escape they provide is.

My heart is breaking.

Pretty sobering, when you realize that money is more important than happiness.

With the database’s overall footprint reduced, it will more performant across the board, which may manifest itself in faster load screens and improved performance on other database-heavy operations. Most importantly, however, this change helps keep the game performant as we continue to add new content and achievements in the future.

Note that performance is not promised with this change, it "may" (or may not) occur. But what did they say was most important to them? Yes.... the ability to add new content. New content = more money. And more achievements you can only get once. I wonder what new dialogue there will be from NPCs we pass by with our alts.... who have never gotten an achievement? Will they be called Saviors? Murderers? Heroes? Will they be impressed by the title we selected during the tutorial? Former Emperor? Flawless Conquerer? Master Angler? Godslayer?

Yep.

ArchangelIsraphel

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Not being able to fully do quests and have all NPC interactions possible on new characters, having the world prize or revile them for choices made with other characters, completely unacceptable, game-breaking and, for me, heart-breaking.

That is the worst part for me and I feel like crying myself.

ESO is not just a game. It's an actual world full of real people where we can make friends and escape the stresses of these past 2 years. Part of that escape is creating characters that we can "become" for a little while when we log in.

I do realize that our characters aren't "real" but the relaxation and escape they provide is.

My heart is breaking.

Sentiments like these are so important, and it is why ZOS's Q&A misses the mark completely. It's as if they cant see into the soul of their own game or how it has inspired people. Posts like these and so many others always hit me straight in the heart, because they reflect my exact feelings.

Though our characters may not be real, the creativity, love, time, and effort we have put into them is. Similar to the way a beloved book or movie might stay with a person throughout their life, they become old friends we turn to for comfort. Whether we walk a thousand miles in their shoes, or imagine that they walk at our side, the act of creation that takes place when we begin to play them and craft their stories is a part of our hearts.

It may not be that way for some. For those who do not understand it, I'm afraid I cannot explain it easily. But if you've ever owned a book you've read over and over until it's pages are dog eared and it's binding is worn, a book you love so much you keep it with you and feel that the story has, in some way, become a part of you, then perhaps you will know how many of us feel.

I've felt so many mixed emotions ever since this began, from regret that I will never be able to do certain achievements ever again, anger that it has to happen at all, sadness, and loss. Even if I know that my characters stories are not gone, and no matter what happens I will continue to write about them, draw them, and be creative with them, I hate the fact that this leg of their journey is being carelessly wiped from existence [snip]

But the recent news, the Q&A...it woke a sort of defiance in me. If they are going to take my individual achievements from me, then I decided I was going to go after achievements I had never attained on anyone, so that I could have achievements that I felt were unique to one of my favorite characters.

It started with me doing something I had longed to do on him forever- go to Cyro to raise his Alliance Rank because of his military backstory. I love PVE and questing, but I have grown to love the rush of Cyro over the years and learning to PVP, even if I am by far no expert. The recent Mayhem event was the perfect opportunity, and I came out of it learning so much.

Really, that's all I intended to do there- farm AP, raise my rank, obtain achievements for those ranks, and get in a few good fights I'd remember. Then I ended up getting Emperor Slayer and Emperor Assassin, which was not a goal I'd set out to achieve, but when opportunity knocked I took the chance. I ran with EP to raise multiple Emperors. We got into some amazing skirmishes I'll never forget, mostly because of the awesome people I met there.

I did not go to cyro this Mayhem with the intention of getting Emperor, even if it's something I wanted forever. I believed it impossible. But I found that I was rising on the leader board, and with the encouragement of the EP I had befriended, I made Emperor last night. I will be forever thankful to them for standing by me, and all the others we helped.

The best part? I was able to keep my promise to help others who fought beside us get Emperor too.

I'll never forget the friends I made there, their supportive attitudes, or the feeling of camaraderie. I'll never forget the sleepless nights we spent raising Emperors, or the tension of holding my position on the leader board. And I'll never forget the rush of seeing my character's name flash across the screen when he finally became Emperor.

I'm writing all of this here, speaking from personal experience again...in the hopes that ZOS somehow sees it and understands the power of achievements and what the drive to go for them can do for people. While Emperor is a highly competitive achievement, in this case, it tied people together as more than one of us chased a dream.

I am incredibly happy that I have achieved something that I never thought I would get. That throne sitting in my characters house, which I have always wanted and felt suited his character so well, feels barely real. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I actually managed to do this. I'm overjoyed, and the experience has raised a renewed feeling of hope in me, because this has given my character something unique .

I now have a set of achievements which, as a writer and storyteller, I consider his and only his, a way to mark his presence on my account forever since every other achievement that I had done on him that was special to me will likely be wiped out by this ridiculous new system.

But there is a bitter sweetness to it, too. And it comes from knowing that individual character achievements are going away. There are some people who like chasing such difficult achievements on more than one character, and I am saddened knowing that they will never be able to feel the rush of finally obtaining such a hard to accomplish goal again. Of course, you can become emperor without the achievement. But having it there to mark the day and the memory...it's special.

I also wonder how many like me, who thought Emperor was only a pipe dream, wont ever get it or have the support to back them because people loose interest in the chase due to being unable to get it more than once. I don't know. Perhaps the AP will be temptation enough. Time will tell.

I also mourn for those who do not have any other way to record their stories than the achievement system. I really do. And I feel terrible knowing that there are people who don't yet know that this change is coming, because they wont get a chance to do things like screen shot their achievements. It will all just be...gone.

[edited for bashing]

Fennwitty

alberichtano wrote: »

CombatCoati wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I've been playing around on PTS, unfortunately it's on EU so I couldn't migrate my live toons. I've been playing through Greymoor and got up to a point where NPCs had random dialogue about the Queen's murder. I rolled another alt level 3, and went to the same spot. Those NPCs are definitely tied to quest stages because they didn't appear for my level 3 alt. If they can have NPC specific dialogue fire off quest stages, why can't they do that for any NPC dialogue tied to achievements? All they have to do is move those quest side, and the world would at least make sense again.

Wouldn't that require the same kind of data as the achievements do now?

As quests are still tracked per character, they should be able to change the checks which are still against achievements to be against quest completion without producing additional data.

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that if it requires new database lists, it would nullify the point of removing character based achievements altogether. If the point is to free up space, then new database requiring lists would be pointless. Then it would be just as good to keep the system as is. Would it not?

There is a 99.9% chance that a database filled with 8 years worth of additions and subtractions could be reorganized to take less space/be faster than it currently is.

If the data was properly normalized, you could fit a server's achievements on basically a personal computer's hard drive.

If the company believes there is truly no more optimization to be had, and they can't add more resources or do anything else creative -- there absolutely have to be 'bigger fish' taking up database space than text achievements.

Unless they store achievements in a revolutionary new BLOB format (which they can open in MS Paint to see who has what) instead of using alphanumeric characters...

Saieden

Fennwitty wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

CombatCoati wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I've been playing around on PTS, unfortunately it's on EU so I couldn't migrate my live toons. I've been playing through Greymoor and got up to a point where NPCs had random dialogue about the Queen's murder. I rolled another alt level 3, and went to the same spot. Those NPCs are definitely tied to quest stages because they didn't appear for my level 3 alt. If they can have NPC specific dialogue fire off quest stages, why can't they do that for any NPC dialogue tied to achievements? All they have to do is move those quest side, and the world would at least make sense again.

Wouldn't that require the same kind of data as the achievements do now?

As quests are still tracked per character, they should be able to change the checks which are still against achievements to be against quest completion without producing additional data.

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that if it requires new database lists, it would nullify the point of removing character based achievements altogether. If the point is to free up space, then new database requiring lists would be pointless. Then it would be just as good to keep the system as is. Would it not?

There is a 99.9% chance that a database filled with 8 years worth of additions and subtractions could be reorganized to take less space/be faster than it currently is.

If the data was properly normalized, you could fit a server's achievements on basically a personal computer's hard drive.

If the company believes there is truly no more optimization to be had, and they can't add more resources or do anything else creative -- there absolutely have to be 'bigger fish' taking up database space than text achievements.

Unless they store achievements in a revolutionary new BLOB format (which they can open in MS Paint to see who has what) instead of using alphanumeric characters...

To add to this, for those that don't know how (good) data works behind the scenes, the only thing you need to store per account/character are the achievement unique ids, date stamps, and character/account they belong to, and a progression metric. Everything else is superficial and does not need to be copied more than once (other than backups) and can be loaded into the client game files directly for visual reference.

There will be no human discernable performance gains from this, and even if there are, it only shows that zos are really bad at managing their data architectures, and/or lack the courage to invest the time to implement a robust solution. Either way, I don't trust them with my money to provide the service they're advertising in a professional, competent or even honest manner.

Indigogo

@ArchangelIsraphel you managed to make this cold heart cry.

What you've written is something I deeply relate to. I know that euphoria!!

At this point, people have moved on from being upset about the loss of pop ups and repeat achievements but it's still very real for me.
I can't help it, perhaps my very practical way of playing the game is not as noble as some, but I'm not one for make believe and without solid achievements to aim for repeatedly I just won't bother.
I could have played this game for years more but they've given me an end date.

Congratulations on getting that emp though. I hope you had a blast with it.

Dojohoda

Araneae6537

Thank you so much for sharing, @ArchangelIsraphel and congratulations on getting Emperor! I don’t know whether ZOS is looking at the feedback or whether the right people will see or care, but it is helpful to read these posts by other players who feel similarly about their characters.

For me I’d been progressing slowly through stories, not because I don’t care but because I often prioritized group content — I thought the stories will always be there for my characters and I can do them whenever I like… I don’t regret as I’ve had a lot of fun and many memories of exploring and overcoming challenges with other players! But before this change goes live, I did want to go through the whole Greymoor and Markarth storyline on one of my characters and just completed it tonight. Verandis is so worth it.

DarcyMardin

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Not being able to fully do quests and have all NPC interactions possible on new characters, having the world prize or revile them for choices made with other characters, completely unacceptable, game-breaking and, for me, heart-breaking.

That is the worst part for me and I feel like crying myself.

ESO is not just a game. It's an actual world full of real people where we can make friends and escape the stresses of these past 2 years. Part of that escape is creating characters that we can "become" for a little while when we log in.

I do realize that our characters aren't "real" but the relaxation and escape they provide is.

My heart is breaking.

I feel the same. Not only is my heart breaking, but the entire game will be broken for me when this goes live. Eight years of accomplishments/history on my many alts going down the drain equals a broken ESO, as far as I’m concerned.

I didn’t sign on any of my characters on any of my 4 accounts today. That’s the first time that’s happened since they started giving us the daily endeavors (probably even longer than that). I’ve already cancelled my ESO+ accounts and I won’t be buying the new chapter.

It’s been wonderful, but I guess it’s true that all things must pass.

Yuualun

I told myself I will not quit, that I will get used to it even if I don't like it. That things will be ok.
The change is not even live yet but sadly I notice the wohle situation, especially how things where handled with the FAQ, has left a deep scratch.
When I log in I don't feel motivated to do anything.

In the past I always defended ZOS, always told others that they listen to us. I was called a White knight for it. Now I feel incredable stupid.

I recently started a new MMORPG. I have fun there and it is cheering me up a bit. ESO used to be my favorite game I played it for years without break. I hope this scratch will heal and my joy in ESO will return someday. After all I love the Game and it's world.

But for now... I guess it is time for a break.

SerafinaWaterstar

Saieden wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

CombatCoati wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I've been playing around on PTS, unfortunately it's on EU so I couldn't migrate my live toons. I've been playing through Greymoor and got up to a point where NPCs had random dialogue about the Queen's murder. I rolled another alt level 3, and went to the same spot. Those NPCs are definitely tied to quest stages because they didn't appear for my level 3 alt. If they can have NPC specific dialogue fire off quest stages, why can't they do that for any NPC dialogue tied to achievements? All they have to do is move those quest side, and the world would at least make sense again.

Wouldn't that require the same kind of data as the achievements do now?

As quests are still tracked per character, they should be able to change the checks which are still against achievements to be against quest completion without producing additional data.

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that if it requires new database lists, it would nullify the point of removing character based achievements altogether. If the point is to free up space, then new database requiring lists would be pointless. Then it would be just as good to keep the system as is. Would it not?

There is a 99.9% chance that a database filled with 8 years worth of additions and subtractions could be reorganized to take less space/be faster than it currently is.

If the data was properly normalized, you could fit a server's achievements on basically a personal computer's hard drive.

If the company believes there is truly no more optimization to be had, and they can't add more resources or do anything else creative -- there absolutely have to be 'bigger fish' taking up database space than text achievements.

Unless they store achievements in a revolutionary new BLOB format (which they can open in MS Paint to see who has what) instead of using alphanumeric characters...

To add to this, for those that don't know how (good) data works behind the scenes, the only thing you need to store per account/character are the achievement unique ids, date stamps, and character/account they belong to, and a progression metric. Everything else is superficial and does not need to be copied more than once (other than backups) and can be loaded into the client game files directly for visual reference.

There will be no human discernable performance gains from this, and even if there are, it only shows that zos are really bad at managing their data architectures, and/or lack the courage to invest the time to implement a robust solution. Either way, I don't trust them with my money to provide the service they're advertising in a professional, competent or even honest manner.

This is what concerns me.

Whilst I am saddened/frustrated/really f’ing angry at what they are doing, if they insist its for ‘performance’ reasons, it makes me think they are in big trouble and have no competent database management processes in place.

Which means that this is just a band-aid. And more destruction may come.

Need to start & continue to ask about the state of the databases and if they can truly sustain this game.

alberichtano

Fennwitty wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

CombatCoati wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

I've been playing around on PTS, unfortunately it's on EU so I couldn't migrate my live toons. I've been playing through Greymoor and got up to a point where NPCs had random dialogue about the Queen's murder. I rolled another alt level 3, and went to the same spot. Those NPCs are definitely tied to quest stages because they didn't appear for my level 3 alt. If they can have NPC specific dialogue fire off quest stages, why can't they do that for any NPC dialogue tied to achievements? All they have to do is move those quest side, and the world would at least make sense again.

Wouldn't that require the same kind of data as the achievements do now?

As quests are still tracked per character, they should be able to change the checks which are still against achievements to be against quest completion without producing additional data.

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that if it requires new database lists, it would nullify the point of removing character based achievements altogether. If the point is to free up space, then new database requiring lists would be pointless. Then it would be just as good to keep the system as is. Would it not?

There is a 99.9% chance that a database filled with 8 years worth of additions and subtractions could be reorganized to take less space/be faster than it currently is.

If the data was properly normalized, you could fit a server's achievements on basically a personal computer's hard drive.

If the company believes there is truly no more optimization to be had, and they can't add more resources or do anything else creative -- there absolutely have to be 'bigger fish' taking up database space than text achievements.

Unless they store achievements in a revolutionary new BLOB format (which they can open in MS Paint to see who has what) instead of using alphanumeric characters...

You might be right. I am not savvy enough to know for sure one way or another, my computer studies were short.

tomofhyrule

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

It started with me doing something I had longed to do on him forever- go to Cyro to raise his Alliance Rank because of his military backstory. I love PVE and questing, but I have grown to love the rush of Cyro over the years and learning to PVP, even if I am by far no expert. The recent Mayhem event was the perfect opportunity, and I came out of it learning so much.

Really, that's all I intended to do there- farm AP, raise my rank, obtain achievements for those ranks, and get in a few good fights I'd remember. Then I ended up getting Emperor Slayer and Emperor Assassin, which was not a goal I'd set out to achieve, but when opportunity knocked I took the chance. I ran with EP to raise multiple Emperors. We got into some amazing skirmishes I'll never forget, mostly because of the awesome people I met there.

I did not go to cyro this Mayhem with the intention of getting Emperor, even if it's something I wanted forever. I believed it impossible. But I found that I was rising on the leader board, and with the encouragement of the EP I had befriended, I made Emperor last night. I will be forever thankful to them for standing by me, and all the others we helped.

The best part? I was able to keep my promise to help others who fought beside us get Emperor too.

Congrats on Emp! I remember you were there for my emp push this MYM too, and thanks for the help!

I kinda felt the same way about mine - I never really cared about PvP at all, but I ended up with a great set of friends who were telling me how to go for it this year, so I did. And it was totally worth it if only for the costume and dye.

I do feel the same way, though about a lot of PvE things. I know some of the high-end communities I know are really bummed about the change and some of my friends are talking about another major shakeup in the endgame PvE community with a lot of them quitting since they feel that they have nothing more to work towards - if they get [achievement X] on one character, they have it on them all.

I'll stay. ESO has still given me more than it's taking away, but my excitement for the next chapter is completely gone. Maybe something will change, maybe not.

I'm still hoping that they can finish cutting all of the dialogue connections to achievements and connect them to the quest log. I assume that could be a retroactive fix. But other things like Melina have no quest to track them. I guess the giant cheese and world events could just reset to the basic 'undiscovered' state so they were all made repeatable and that could be a fix, but all of these little fixes just make the world seem duct-taped together.

Oh, speaking of emperor and quest-related dialogue: What about Clivia in WGT? She has dialogue for meeting her as a citizen, an emperor, and a former emperor. Will she permanently lose the citizen dialogue on emping on any character on the account?

Wolfkeks

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Oh, speaking of emperor and quest-related dialogue: What about Clivia in WGT? She has dialogue for meeting her as a citizen, an emperor, and a former emperor. Will she permanently lose the citizen dialogue on emping on any character on the account?

We tested this again this Monday and Clivia still will talk to a character that did not achieve the former emperor achievement themselves as if the character became emp at some point in the past as long as another char got it. You will get the secret dialogue option on all characters if you got emp in the past.

SilverBride

DarcyMardin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Not being able to fully do quests and have all NPC interactions possible on new characters, having the world prize or revile them for choices made with other characters, completely unacceptable, game-breaking and, for me, heart-breaking.

That is the worst part for me and I feel like crying myself.

ESO is not just a game. It's an actual world full of real people where we can make friends and escape the stresses of these past 2 years. Part of that escape is creating characters that we can "become" for a little while when we log in.

I do realize that our characters aren't "real" but the relaxation and escape they provide is.

My heart is breaking.

I feel the same. Not only is my heart breaking, but the entire game will be broken for me when this goes live. Eight years of accomplishments/history on my many alts going down the drain equals a broken ESO, as far as I’m concerned.

I didn’t sign on any of my characters on any of my 4 accounts today. That’s the first time that’s happened since they started giving us the daily endeavors (probably even longer than that). I’ve already cancelled my ESO+ accounts and I won’t be buying the new chapter.

It’s been wonderful, but I guess it’s true that all things must pass.

Lately I've been logging in to do writs and put items for sale for the trade guild I'm in, then puttering around my houses a lot. It just seems pointless to do much else. I did do a few public dungeons yesterday while I can still track them but it felt more like "hurry and get this done while I can" than really enjoying them.

I really don't know what I'm going to do when this goes live.

KMarble

alberichtano wrote: »

Patience?? Not to be rude, but they still haven't fixed the old bugs! Tons of lore books that are still unreachable (the one in the temple of Mnem is just the most obvious), for example. Simple small bugs that have been in the game since... well, forever.

And we are to believe that fixing these bugs will have precedence over other concerns? No. Sorry, but I have a really hard time believing that.

Yes, I know. It was just one example of how they could have communicated, yet they chose to basically say "suck it up, buttercup".

shroomshade wrote: »

snip

But I digress. The way it’s currently being implemented seems to leave a lot to be desired. The Q&A was really time deaf and cold, and it really doesn’t address half of the major questions about this. I kind of assume the zone guide and character interaction problems are bugs that will be addressed, but we of course can’t know for sure because ZOS won’t address it. And I if, heaven forbid they are not bugs and ZOS thinks it appropriate to ship it to live like that, then I don’t even know, I guess I’d just be at a loss for words.

Telling us what is a bug and what isn't is the minimum they could had done. The fact that there was absolutely NO acknowledgement one way or another was one of the main reasons I cancelled my sub. How hard is it to say: "thank you for pointing this (issue) out" or "this is working as intended"?

shroomshade wrote: »

I don’t have much to add that others haven’t already said, but i will say that I do think the change could be reversible without rolling back the severs. I don’t know much about ESO’s infrastructure, but I am a database professional and I can certainly think of ways that referential integrity could be retained to roll back such a change without adversely impacting Neely created character data. Again though, this does assume they maintain the original character data in some capacity in the short term until they are 100% sure they don’t need it.

Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR: put me in the “against” AWA column, but if they fix the problems with zone guide, broken quests and character interactions, then I can deal with it.

That will only work if they keep back ups, though. This whole mess has me thinking that they don't care and aren't willing to admit mistakes (which btw, have been piling on top of each other). The Q&A felt, to me, as an adult telling children what was about to come. It didn't come across, again, to me, as adults addressing other adults.

KMarble

alberichtano wrote: »

Wait... does that mean she will never stop, even if you have finished the questline? If it goes on achievements, and it is already taken...

No. I think (haven't tested it) that Stuga will only go after the characters that haven't started the Orsinium quest. Same way as it has been since Wrothgar was introduced.

Giraffon

How much of my money and time would I have kept for myself had they said many years ago:

In the year 2022 we're going to go to account wide achievements. Nothing you do with any alt will be preserved.

Had I been informed of this unstated point, I would not have purchased 9 additional character slots at 1500 crowns each (13,500 crowns). I would not have purchased many other crown store items such as costumes and mounts that were purchased to give a specific look to an alt. I would not have spent 1000s of hours developing alts with their own personal story lines.

It's a good thing they have a TOS to hide behind. In my mind, ZOS has stolen many things of value from me.

I will never forget this atrocity!

Jaraal

Put in a ticket for a refund, as the functionality will no longer represent what they advertised when the game went live and you made those purchases with the expectation of continued accessability.

It's like if you purchase an extended warranty for your car, but they repossess it... and still expect you to contine paying the warranty. It makes no sense.

ArchangelIsraphel

Indigogo wrote: »

@ArchangelIsraphel you managed to make this cold heart cry.
What you've written is something I deeply relate to. I know that euphoria!!

At this point, people have moved on from being upset about the loss of pop ups and repeat achievements but it's still very real for me.

I can't help it, perhaps my very practical way of playing the game is not as noble as some, but I'm not one for make believe and without solid achievements to aim for repeatedly I just won't bother.

I could have played this game for years more but they've given me an end date.

Congratulations on getting that emp though. I hope you had a blast with it.

Thank you so much! It was incredibly fun running around with the buffs for a while, definitely worth the effort. The push to get it was one of the best experiences I've ever had in an MMO. No other achievement has ever give me such a rush.

I understand how you feel completely though. Your way of playing the game is just as valid as any other, and if getting achievements and having something solid to aim for is what you have fun with, then more power to you. No one has the right to tell you how you "should" be playing, we all have our own way of enjoying games.

I hope you find another game that will give you the same sense of accomplishment that ESO did. I wish it could have been ESO and that ZOS would listen to those who have a play style like yours. I empathize with you and anyone else who is experiencing feelings of loss because of this change.

Most of my characters have backstories, but I actually have a couple that I play in a way that is very similar to how you play. I made them to enjoy the process of getting achievements on them and reaching solid goals without playing any of the content in any particular order. I'm sad that after this update, I'll no longer get to do what I enjoy on them, so I get how you feel 100%

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Thank you so much for sharing, @ArchangelIsraphel and congratulations on getting Emperor! I don’t know whether ZOS is looking at the feedback or whether the right people will see or care, but it is helpful to read these posts by other players who feel similarly about their characters.

For me I’d been progressing slowly through stories, not because I don’t care but when I would often prioritize group content — I thought the stories will always be there for my characters and I can do them whenever I like… I don’t regret as I’ve had a lot of fun and many memories of overcoming challenges and epic battles! But I did want to go through the whole Greymoor and Markarth storyline on one of my characters, just completed tonight, and Verandis is so worth it.

Congratulations on finishing Greymoor and Markarth! Both were such amazing stories and I'm glad you got to experience them before the AWA changes happen. Verandis is by far one of my favorite characters in the entire game, hands down, along with Fennorian.

And thank you so much! I truly hope they are reading every ones comments. There are so many moving stories here about how the game has affected us in some way, what it means to us, and why the achievement system is so important.
I find seeing the comments of others helpful too. Knowing that others share the same feelings I do soothes the heartache in many ways. I think its important to show each other that WE care about what others are loosing, even if the higher ups at ZOS may not.

Honestly, I think the achievement system has become more than the company ever thought it was, and they might be learning for the first time exactly how different each players relationship with the system can be. I can't even count how many different playstyles have been described in this thread.

They may even be seeing, for the first time, exactly what kind of community they have. Because ESO is such a deeply story and character driven game, it has a community that is rich with writers, artists, and roleplayers who use the game as a tool to create in. Although our characters may not be real, our hearts are closely tied to all that we do and make with them. The depth of that creativity goes far beyond what many other games offer, and has given it a unique identity. They need to realize that.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

It started with me doing something I had longed to do on him forever- go to Cyro to raise his Alliance Rank because of his military backstory. I love PVE and questing, but I have grown to love the rush of Cyro over the years and learning to PVP, even if I am by far no expert. The recent Mayhem event was the perfect opportunity, and I came out of it learning so much.
Really, that's all I intended to do there- farm AP, raise my rank, obtain achievements for those ranks, and get in a few good fights I'd remember. Then I ended up getting Emperor Slayer and Emperor Assassin, which was not a goal I'd set out to achieve, but when opportunity knocked I took the chance. I ran with EP to raise multiple Emperors. We got into some amazing skirmishes I'll never forget, mostly because of the awesome people I met there.
I did not go to cyro this Mayhem with the intention of getting Emperor, even if it's something I wanted forever. I believed it impossible. But I found that I was rising on the leader board, and with the encouragement of the EP I had befriended, I made Emperor last night. I will be forever thankful to them for standing by me, and all the others we helped.
The best part? I was able to keep my promise to help others who fought beside us get Emperor too.

Congrats on Emp! I remember you were there for my emp push this MYM too, and thanks for the help!

I kinda felt the same way about mine - I never really cared about PvP at all, but I ended up with a great set of friends who were telling me how to go for it this year, so I did. And it was totally worth it if only for the costume and dye.

I do feel the same way, though about a lot of PvE things. I know some of the high-end communities I know are really bummed about the change and some of my friends are talking about another major shakeup in the endgame PvE community with a lot of them quitting since they feel that they have nothing more to work towards - if they get [achievement X] on one character, they have it on them all.

I'll stay. ESO has still given me more than it's taking away, but my excitement for the next chapter is completely gone. Maybe something will change, maybe not.

I'm still hoping that they can finish cutting all of the dialogue connections to achievements and connect them to the quest log. I assume that could be a retroactive fix. But other things like Melina have no quest to track them. I guess the giant cheese and world events could just reset to the basic 'undiscovered' state so they were all made repeatable and that could be a fix, but all of these little fixes just make the world seem duct-taped together.

Oh, speaking of emperor and quest-related dialogue: What about Clivia in WGT? She has dialogue for meeting her as a citizen, an emperor, and a former emperor. Will she permanently lose the citizen dialogue on emping on any character on the account?

I'm so glad to see someone else here who went for EMP too! Congratulations on getting Emp, you deserve it and I'm happy I could be there to help you out.

Assisting others with the push to get Emp is really becoming one of my new favorite things. I know how I felt getting it, and I want others to have that feeling too. The camaraderie within EP on that particular campaign was amazing. So many people willing to teach others how to survive in Cyro so that they could make the push. I learned a TON this MYM.

I'm really concerned about the endgame community in PVE too. Even though I've been playing since 2018, I've been taking my time with the game and am only beginning to enter into much more difficult endgame content. It worries me that the
community surrounding it is essentially being dismantled by this change. That, and we are loosing so many good teachers that could help those who are only just beginning to rise to the challenge of doing this kind of content. Its a huge mistake on ZOS's part.

Both in PVE and PVP, we need those experienced players to help others rise to their level, especially in a game that does not explain its mechanics in either very well at all.

I also really, really hope they fix the quests and atmosphere in the world in the way you mentioned. I cannot imagine why they'd leave it so broken. I mean, The Elder Scrolls story, in my opinion, is like a work of art. Its lore and quests hearken to a linage of games who are built on a heritage of incredible story telling.

Letting ESO stay in a broken state is like taking a famous piece of art that people have enjoyed for generations, defacing it, and then saying "No its fine, we can totally hang it back up, because new people who have never seen it before wont even know the difference and never feel the absence of what the original once looked like. Who cares if people who used to love the Mona Lisa are mad that some kid painted a beard and a clown hat on her, they need to get over it!"

I'm questioning whether or not to buy the next chapter at all because of this.

But with that being said in spite of all this, I'm staying as well. Not only because everything I've built here still matters to me including the friends I've made, but because I wont let the absence of achievements take the things I do still enjoy away from me. My characters will still be themselves, I'll make sure of that, even if it means playing Elder Spreadsheets Online.
I'm actually thinking of making it an art project and creating physical journals expressing the unique personality of each to record things in.

SilverBride

I've considered making spreadsheets but it would be a monumental undertaking to include every zone with every dolmen, Harrowstorm, world boss, delve boss, public dungeon boss, etc.. And having to continually refer to a spreadsheet will certainly break immersion.

While spreadsheets would somewhat help with replayability they do nothing for our titles and individual identities.

I want to enjoy the entire world on each of my characters individually, not just play a carbon copy of all my other characters merged into one.

tomofhyrule

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

But with that being said in spite of all this, I'm staying as well. Not only because everything I've built here still matters to me including the friends I've made, but because I wont let the absence of achievements take the things I do still enjoy away from me. My characters will still be themselves, I'll make sure of that, even if it means playing Elder Spreadsheets Online.
I'm actually thinking of making it an art project and creating physical journals expressing the unique personality of each to record things in.

My stories are what's saving me as well.

I'm trying to write my characters' stories as I go. I may be a little slow in getting them, but at least I can still keep their lives intact even without the game telling me what they have and haven't done.

For the zone completion, I guess I'll just make it a point to go through every WB/dolmen/delve as soon as it pops up on the map - the icons don't show until it's discovered, so I'll just go clear them as normal as soon as I do discover them. I'd hope the weird dialogue options can get retroactively patched, and then...

...well maybe ZOS will realize that things like Melina are an issue and fix those once they have the elegant solution for museums as well. I would like for them also to put some of the minor things like lighting the campfires or the giant cheese into a state where they reset to 'unactivated' on zone reset so you could do them several times (it always looked weird to be able to light an already-lit campfire for them).

Kesstryl

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

But with that being said in spite of all this, I'm staying as well. Not only because everything I've built here still matters to me including the friends I've made, but because I wont let the absence of achievements take the things I do still enjoy away from me. My characters will still be themselves, I'll make sure of that, even if it means playing Elder Spreadsheets Online.
I'm actually thinking of making it an art project and creating physical journals expressing the unique personality of each to record things in.

My stories are what's saving me as well.

I'm trying to write my characters' stories as I go. I may be a little slow in getting them, but at least I can still keep their lives intact even without the game telling me what they have and haven't done.

For the zone completion, I guess I'll just make it a point to go through every WB/dolmen/delve as soon as it pops up on the map - the icons don't show until it's discovered, so I'll just go clear them as normal as soon as I do discover them. I'd hope the weird dialogue options can get retroactively patched, and then...

...well maybe ZOS will realize that things like Melina are an issue and fix those once they have the elegant solution for museums as well. I would like for them also to put some of the minor things like lighting the campfires or the giant cheese into a state where they reset to 'unactivated' on zone reset so you could do them several times (it always looked weird to be able to light an already-lit campfire for them).

So many people here popping up who role play the stories! I think one of the biggest problems has been the fact that streamers have basically been setting the tone for the game, and they have the ear of ZOS. As I said in another thread, the focus of the streamers usually involves end game stuff, beating challenges on theory crafted and meta builds, pvp, and basically ESO as a game to beat. I do not bash them here, I've used their information multitudes of times, and their feedback is valuable for their sphere of influence. They do not speak for all other aspects of the game, but unfortunately, I think ZOS prioritizes them because they basically advertise their game. I'm going to use the term Role Players in a more comprehensive way than simply people you might find emoting and being in character in the game world. Role Players can also include those who role play through the quests in their head, or create stories around their characters that are not necessarily RPed in game at all. Now that I've established that, I wonder if Role Players had done something similar to the meta gamers, used our art and character stories online as a means of advertising for the game also - would we be in the situation we are in now? Should we have done more to stake our claim, and created content for role players to draw more role players for more profit for ZOS? Many are now finding this thread and coming out to express how AwA is destroying how we've been playing. There are multitudes more who do not use the forums. I don't think ZOS realizes how many we are. If they did, would they have made decisions differently, and prioritized changes differently, even in the face of technology issues? We were too busy and happy enjoying the game world, playing our stories, building our characters, and living internally in our heads and hearts, not realizing that the louder of a sub-sect of gamers became the voice for all in the eyes of ZOS.

deleted221106-002999

Kesstryl wrote: »

So many people here popping up who role play the stories! I think one of the biggest problems has been the fact that streamers have basically been setting the tone for the game, and they have the ear of ZOS. As I said in another thread, the focus of the streamers usually involves end game stuff, beating challenges on theory crafted and meta builds, pvp, and basically ESO as a game to beat. I do not bash them here, I've used their information multitudes of times, and their feedback is valuable for their sphere of influence. They do not speak for all other aspects of the game, but unfortunately, I think ZOS prioritizes them because they basically advertise their game. I'm going to use the term Role Players in a more comprehensive way than simply people you might find emoting and being in character in the game world. Role Players can also include those who role play through the quests in their head, or create stories around their characters that are not necessarily RPed in game at all. Now that I've established that, I wonder if Role Players had done something similar to the meta gamers, used our art and character stories online as a means of advertising for the game also - would we be in the situation we are in now? Should we have done more to stake our claim, and created content for role players to draw more role players for more profit for ZOS? Many are now finding this thread and coming out to express how AwA is destroying how we've been playing. There are multitudes more who do not use the forums. I don't think ZOS realizes how many we are. If they did, would they have made decisions differently, and prioritized changes differently, even in the face of technology issues? We were too busy and happy enjoying the game world, playing our stories, building our stories, and living internally in our heads and hearts, not realizing that the louder of a sub-sect of gamers became the voice for all in the eyes of ZOS.

I agree with the streamer focus. Ironically, they're representative of such a tiny minority of the game and by their own admission. Not dissing them, either.

I suspect this thread is a tiny, tiny part of huge silent majority of players that just potter around in game and rely on the character-specific achievements more than has been considered.

While many, I expect, will just shrug and accept what's done on release, I still reckon there's going to be initial confusion ("is this is a bug?" followed by a backlash.

Being silent, the only voice such players have is economic and I suppose if the game is empty post-u33 with a correspeonding dip in subscriptions, crown sales and chapter pre-orders, zos can only blame their own intransigence.

Of course, by then it will be too late as the damage will be done.

May as well dub it 'the ides of March' update (et tu zos?).

wenchmore420b14_ESO

The AwA debate is now in some of the Gaming Magazines online.
I only read one.
It stated that the ESO forum community was at war with each other, and then the rest of the article read like a "PR Statement" from ZoS.
It TOTALY missed the mark about what is truly at stake with AwA in UD33.

Tandor

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

The AwA debate is now in some of the Gaming Magazines online.
I only read one.
It stated that the ESO forum community was at war with each other, and then the rest of the article read like a "PR Statement" from ZoS.
It TOTALY missed the mark about what is truly at stake with AwA in UD33.

Agreed. Such distorted articles often seem to be down to the ignorance of those who profess to know a game well enough to write about it but who don't necessarily even play it, coupled in some cases no doubt with the power advertisers hold over those sites.

Wolf_Eye

silvereyes wrote: »

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

dzugarueb17_ESO wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

Us old TES fans who came here for an Elder Scrolls experience have been pushed aside for you.

Sorry but dont throw all tes fan that came here for a tes game all in the same bucket
Acheivement while more important for some than others arent a mandatory part of being a tes fan

Acheivements surely arent. Being able to play the game more than once is.

This is all purely speculational for now, but what do you plan to do when this thing is pushed to live regardless? I'm going to spam the hell out of guild and zone chats, reddit and forums about how you can play a (great) Elder Scrolls game only once.

Continue questing on my 18 characters, just as i did before the patch.
Its not because a few quest are broken that the game isnt replayable,in fact it definitly is replayable

Sure i do understand that not being able to redo acheivement on alt may saden or even anger some, but the game is much bigger thant that.

its more than a few.by my count its around 50ish buggy/ broken quests

I keep seeing people throw around this ~50 broken quests figure. What are you including in that figure? Because I know I'm bad at math sometimes, but I read through the entire bug reports thread, and I only count 7, and one of them can be easily avoided:

• A Book and its Cover from Summerset
• Surreptitiously Shadowed from Murkmire
• Giant Cheese Connoisseur from Greymoor
• Taking Up the Mantle from Blackreach
• A Friend in Deed from Markarth
• Adoring Admirer from Blackwood
• Innocent Scoundrel in Stros M'Kai - triggering this bug seems to be a real edge case. Just don't do Stros M'kai quests on two characters simultaneously.

Check better... should be tomofhyrule post on page 3, with a pretty long list at its end as spoiler.

Here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7531289/#Comment_7531289

That's not a list of quests. It's a list of achievements under the "quests" category.

Edit: Also, I went back and counted, and there are 185 quests in that list. So where's the "50" coming from? Even if you exclude the museum quests / Kari's Hit List, it's still nowhere close.

There are several points of fact that I think are being lost by just tossing around the "50 broken quests" line without context:

1. @tomofhyrule's point was to request that the developers err on the side of caution and add all to the exclusions list until they could be tested. They explicitly did not test all of them.
2. One of the achievements on that list, "Hero of Bleakrock", was independently tested by two people (one of them @tomofhyrule themself) and found to have no issues.
3. @Wolf_Eye tested the entire Western Skyrim and Markarth zones' story lines and only reported two broken quests. The rest can probably be assumed to be working, or at least to only break under certain edge case conditions. That's another 20 or so achievements on the list right there.

Not mentioned in the bugs thread, but I also specifically tested the Kingmaker stuff in Wrothgar, and I had no issues there.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with questing, or that all of the quests on that list are fine. I'm just saying we shouldn't be assuming that they are all broken, and there's already been testing to say many are not broken.

There's enough to be sad about right now without adding in unverified speculation.

I agree with Silvereyes. When I did my Dark Heart of Skyrim questline test, I ONLY found the following two things messed up:

1. The Bard Quest giver at the Bard's college showed up at the Western Skyrim afterparty even though my alt couldn't complete his quest (I suspect that this might be fixed/changed with regards to them turning all museum quests to be individually tracked).
2. The final dialogue and conversation by a certain questline NPC in Blackreach does not happen at all if you've already talked to him on a prior toon. (Taking up the Mantle Achievement)

There was also the additional consideration of Melina Cassel's conversations in Markarth were not working properly, and her treating all of my characters as if they were the same person because her conversation stages were tracked specifically by the achievement itself. (But, I acknowledge that Melina Cassel is an optional side quest thing, and not part of the greater main storyline as a whole. You don't actually need to speak to her to complete the main quest).

Is it possible that I might have missed some problems during my testing? Sure, anything is possible. But as much as I dearly, dearly love these characters and desperately want them fixed, I'm not going to misrepresent the results of my test; the vast majority of the Dark Heart of Skyrim questline was, as far as I could tell, perfectly intact and working properly.

NPCs that appeared during the questline reacted to the alt appropriately and did not mention things she didn't do (like the Rivenspire questline, the Coldharbour main questline, the Unhallowed Grave quest, etc), in spite of the fact that my Main had unlocked the achievements associated with these quests prior to the test.

However, and I think this is why @tomofhyrule was listing out storyline achievements, we just don't know how many more storylines have bits and pieces missing like this. While it is not guaranteed that the list of story connected achievements are bugged or permanently altered, on the flipside we also don't have any guarantees that they will work properly either after AWA comes to the live servers. And I think that's what many people, including myself, are very concerned about; how many chunks of the world are going to go missing when this hits live?

It's a daunting task for any player to use their free time to play through entire storylines (and you can't always just rush, you'd have to pay some attention to what the NPCs are saying to make sure achievements aren't triggering different dialogue). For people like me, who don't have any EU toons, the task is doubly daunting since we'd have to play through questlines twice; once to establish achievements, and the second to test those out.

It really is something that ZOS needs to look into and the lack of communication on their end about these issues is very distressing and heartbreaking; is it intended that I must lose story bits of my fav characters permanently after only ever doing them once? I am just very depressed and saddened about this idea.

I do want to take a moment to say that I deeply appreciate all the help and support from fellow players who keep asking ZOS about this because I feel like every little bit helps. Even if you are not terribly interested in story or don't really care about these characters, I do still appreciate it. At the very least I do not have to be alone in asking ZOS for fixes and answers, and I am very, very grateful. Thank you. You are all amazing to me.