Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I mean, I never stated that the debuffs couldn't come with more gains either. People are just choosing to interpret the suggestion in the least charitable way, because it's easier to argue against.

For example, earlier in the thread I mentioned it should come with something like +% gold gain +increased quality drops for example.

I don't think it should come with titles/achievements because they are one time use, but I have stated that something like blue instead of green drops or a bit more gold would be appropriate.

That makes so much more sense and I'd 100% agree. I'm only against self-debuffs with zero benefits as I've seen them before and know how pointless / unused they are (in games with online elements).

newtinmpls wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Nobody except the odd guy in a million would use such debuffs with no benefits

This describes a LOT of the Skyrim players who use the "make the game harder" type of addons, because what they want is a challenge.

Probably bad wording on my part, but you also cropped what I said right after in the same sentence. I was talking about online games.

Yeah thinking on it, I probably should have reiterated it as I said it a long time ago. I keep thinking at this point that everyone knows what I'm suggesting, but that's not necessarily the case. Ideally for me, these would ALL be done eventually.

My vision for a perfect overhaul would be:

No Unique Rewards Category (because they aren't repeatable and should not be imo)

*Debuffs (some of them straightforward, some crazy, some small benefits for using them is okay) <--primarily to address old content's side bosses and trash packs
*Challenge Banners for Instanced Bosses <---Adds unique mechanics and difficulty to story bosses, make them end of the world threats

Unique Rewards OKAY category

*New Standalone Story Adventure Zones <--should have no impact on the year of stories, so that people who can't do them don't miss out. Should be about Craglorn difficulty. Initially as a test and if it proves to be really popular then we get more of them. We get this instead of 1 of the dungeons. So 3 dungeons and a small adventure zone per year instead of 4.

*New Incursions <----New Enemies that pop up in "random" spots on the map, similar to the Walking World Bosses in the Deadlands or those little tiny mini anchors in the base game overland that make that high pitched "zoom" sound and have like little vampire bosses and stuff pop up. They'd be far enough away from the regular questing zones that people who don't want to deal with them can easily ignore them, but close enough that if you're riding from place to place you may run into one. The map can call out their location too. These would be normal trial difficulty bosses.


I think this would result in allowing the player base to remain unified while still giving vet players more options to increase difficulty, be easier to implement because the big work is being done on new stuff not old, and most importantly ensure that all of it is optional. The story of the new adventure zone being standalone would mean that skipping it wouldn't have a negative impact on people who care a lot about the year long story, so it's an easy miss. Debuffs you choose to use is by it's own nature optional, same with challenge banners. Incursions in this game are already easily skipped, this would just be a couple more of them.

tonyblack

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Private instances are best possible outcome for both parties with only concerns how much server resources it would actually require.

In the worst case I would say a core per private instance - this is what a price of 12.99/mo. or 100 dollars a year, like it is in Fallout 76, suggests - eventually several private instances of the same region could be stacked on one core, which would then generate profit, but eventually as well cause lag for some instances. The worst case would be 1 player in every region in a private instance - then we would have about 4 server blades per platform resp. global location - given instance stacking.

And yet you aren't charged for private dungeon instances in ESO, with both normal and vet mod available. Like I said if I would expect any form of rework it would mostly affect future DLC content, which is gated behind paywall as it is.

LashanW

I'm not expecting ZoS to rework the tons of overland zones we already have. But going forward optional veteran versions would be nice to have for the new overland zones they release in the future. At the moment I feel nothing when they announce a new overland zone.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This is why I have suggested the following package for increasing difficulty

*Debuffs <---can be used anywhere so is a very cheap, easy change for the old stuff
*Challenge Banners for Big Bosses
*Entirely NEW zones that are adventure zones with standalone stories that are difficult <---more likely to get a ton of work for NEW things.

• Debuffs can be made quite good, as long as it's implemented properly. (hopefully ZoS can take inspiration from games that did it successfully)
• Challenge banners would be awesome.
• Sounds good, but I don't know how the more casual player would feel about stories being (is it exlcusive?) in harder content. I should probably go back and read when you suggested this at first, I don't recall the details.

Lysette

I was asking no one personally here - I just fear that when you ask 10 people, what they mean by challenging and they go into detail about it, that you get at least 10 different versions of what is challenging to them - on that basis how should ZOS be able to find a solution, which would satisfy most of these players - if the goal is not defined well enough. I did not address anyone of you personally with this question - I'm just worried about that "challenge" means something different to everyone.

Like challenge could be - disable all add-ons instantly - no way to connect them in such a zone - add cool downs to skills, that you can't weave or animation cancel anymore - force first person, that you are not able to zoom out and get a wide range view - add helmet view, that your field of sight is limited by your helmet - like it is done in kingdom come deliverance for example - stuff like this could make it a challenge as well - but some might not feel this to be a challenge but an annoyance.

newtinmpls

What is a challenge banner?

tonyblack

Lysette wrote: »

I was asking no one personally here - I just fear that when you ask 10 people, what they mean by challenging and they go into detail about it, that you get at least 10 different versions of what is challenging to them - on that basis how should ZOS be able to find a solution, which would satisfy most of these players - if the goal is not defined well enough. I did not address anyone of you personally with this question - I'm just worried about that "challenge" means something different to everyone.

Like challenge could be - disable all add-ons instantly - no way to connect them in such a zone - add cool downs to skills, that you can't weave or animation cancel anymore - force first person, that you are not able to zoom out and get a wide range view - add helmet view, that your field of sight is limited by your helmet - like it is done in kingdom come deliverance for example - stuff like this could make it a challenge as well - but some might not feel this to be a challenge but an annoyance.

The good starting point of defining how challenging veteran mode could be vs normal is identifying what expected power level of a player for whom normal dlc dungeons are designed and for whom vets. If first balanced around player (in group of 4) putting 5-15k dps with random gear, cp and attrubute allocation, then latter should be balanced around players who capable of putting 55-80k with semi-optimised purple gear, correct skills, CP and attrubutes. In that case the encounters should be balanced with that dps in mind while also considering healing and tanking capabilities of single induvidual. There are also 2 vet solo arenas that was balanced around solo players so they are a good indicator what could be expected from vet mode. That is my take at least.
Most of what you descibed is forcing difficulty on yourself by acting stupid.

spartaxoxo

newtinmpls wrote: »

What is a challenge banner?

Challenge Banners are like the hard mode scrolls in vet dungeons, but it's easier to turn them on and off and see if they are active.

Lysette

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I was asking no one personally here - I just fear that when you ask 10 people, what they mean by challenging and they go into detail about it, that you get at least 10 different versions of what is challenging to them - on that basis how should ZOS be able to find a solution, which would satisfy most of these players - if the goal is not defined well enough. I did not address anyone of you personally with this question - I'm just worried about that "challenge" means something different to everyone.

Like challenge could be - disable all add-ons instantly - no way to connect them in such a zone - add cool downs to skills, that you can't weave or animation cancel anymore - force first person, that you are not able to zoom out and get a wide range view - add helmet view, that your field of sight is limited by your helmet - like it is done in kingdom come deliverance for example - stuff like this could make it a challenge as well - but some might not feel this to be a challenge but an annoyance.

The good starting point of defining how challenging veteran mode could be vs normal is identifying what expected power level of a player for whom normal dlc dungeons are designed and for whom vets. If first balanced around player (in group of 4) putting 5-15k dps with random gear, cp and attrubute allocation, then latter should be balanced around players who capable of putting 55-80k with semi-optimised purple gear, correct skills, CP and attrubutes. In that case the encounters should be balanced with that dps in mind while also considering healing and tanking capabilities of single induvidual. There are also 2 vet solo arenas that was balanced around solo players so they are a good indicator what could be expected from vet mode. That is my take at least.
Most of what you descibed is forcing difficulty on yourself by acting stupid.

have you tried to use first person view in challenging combat situations?- It is quite different, if you don't really know where everyone is, if you don't turn in that direction - you don't have overview and combat at the same time like this, and this gets your dps down, if you still want to know whats going on around you - being forced into first person is more challenging than playing in zoomed out 3rd person.

I would as well not scale by your max resource, but by your actually available resource at that time, this makes resource management a bit more difficult and lowers dps as well. Furthermore let the character have role play aspects - let him be a person, who experiences pain - meaning he will perform with a delay and not at full strength - surprise, being stunned for a bit when the enemy opens the fight and not the player - fear, if health gets below a certain threshold, he is converting some of his attacks into blocking and blocks instead to attack - well I had quite a few more things like that - but role playing aspects is most likely not what you guys want in a role playing game, do you?

Steven19eighty101

Just doing the western skyrim quests while leveling up some skills and just because I haven't done any questing for so long. Absolutely stunning landscapes and graphics, really cool storyline, but if I pass the controls to my 7 year old daughter while cooking dinner I can guarantee she wont die lol

Lysette

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I was asking no one personally here - I just fear that when you ask 10 people, what they mean by challenging and they go into detail about it, that you get at least 10 different versions of what is challenging to them - on that basis how should ZOS be able to find a solution, which would satisfy most of these players - if the goal is not defined well enough. I did not address anyone of you personally with this question - I'm just worried about that "challenge" means something different to everyone.

Like challenge could be - disable all add-ons instantly - no way to connect them in such a zone - add cool downs to skills, that you can't weave or animation cancel anymore - force first person, that you are not able to zoom out and get a wide range view - add helmet view, that your field of sight is limited by your helmet - like it is done in kingdom come deliverance for example - stuff like this could make it a challenge as well - but some might not feel this to be a challenge but an annoyance.

The good starting point of defining how challenging veteran mode could be vs normal is identifying what expected power level of a player for whom normal dlc dungeons are designed and for whom vets. If first balanced around player (in group of 4) putting 5-15k dps with random gear, cp and attrubute allocation, then latter should be balanced around players who capable of putting 55-80k with semi-optimised purple gear, correct skills, CP and attrubutes. In that case the encounters should be balanced with that dps in mind while also considering healing and tanking capabilities of single induvidual. There are also 2 vet solo arenas that was balanced around solo players so they are a good indicator what could be expected from vet mode. That is my take at least.
Most of what you descibed is forcing difficulty on yourself by acting stupid.

Sounds good until you think of the normal mob in overland - mudcrabs balanced to fight these veterans, skeevers as well, wolves, wasps and what not - this would exactly lead to what I said before - you will feel weaker than a newbie in this area, if it is just about scaling - I think challenge should be achieved by adding something what goes more into the role play direction than continuing just to be another fighting arena - you said you want to quest and experience overland - what is basically role playing, so why not create the challenge by adding role play aspects and make first person mandatory.

Otherwise you would just have the same as everywhere else in overland again - and feel weak compared to a newbie - dangerous mudcrabs, scaled up to fight the great warrior - ridiculous.

Well, I will stop here, these are all serious suggestions by me - but if I continue hammering on them, this might be considered baiting and I am far from wanting to bait anyone - just to eventually give it a thought, if this wouldn't be something different from pure scaling again.

Lysette

Steven19eighty101 wrote: »

Just doing the western skyrim quests while leveling up some skills and just because I haven't done any questing for so long. Absolutely stunning landscapes and graphics, really cool storyline, but if I pass the controls to my 7 year old daughter while cooking dinner I can guarantee she wont die lol

until she runs into a bristleback or wants to know what these redish clouds in the sky are - and both are pretty easy to reach, just following the road to dragon's bridge and follow the road in eastern direction, after passing the bridge - so she might find that quite easily.

Steven19eighty101

Lysette wrote: »

Steven19eighty101 wrote: »

Just doing the western skyrim quests while leveling up some skills and just because I haven't done any questing for so long. Absolutely stunning landscapes and graphics, really cool storyline, but if I pass the controls to my 7 year old daughter while cooking dinner I can guarantee she wont die lol

until she runs into a bristleback or wants to know what these redish clouds in the sky are - and both are pretty easy to reach, just following the road to dragon's bridge and follow the road in eastern direction, after passing the bridge - so she might find that quite easily.

lol

tonyblack

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

I was asking no one personally here - I just fear that when you ask 10 people, what they mean by challenging and they go into detail about it, that you get at least 10 different versions of what is challenging to them - on that basis how should ZOS be able to find a solution, which would satisfy most of these players - if the goal is not defined well enough. I did not address anyone of you personally with this question - I'm just worried about that "challenge" means something different to everyone.

Like challenge could be - disable all add-ons instantly - no way to connect them in such a zone - add cool downs to skills, that you can't weave or animation cancel anymore - force first person, that you are not able to zoom out and get a wide range view - add helmet view, that your field of sight is limited by your helmet - like it is done in kingdom come deliverance for example - stuff like this could make it a challenge as well - but some might not feel this to be a challenge but an annoyance.

The good starting point of defining how challenging veteran mode could be vs normal is identifying what expected power level of a player for whom normal dlc dungeons are designed and for whom vets. If first balanced around player (in group of 4) putting 5-15k dps with random gear, cp and attrubute allocation, then latter should be balanced around players who capable of putting 55-80k with semi-optimised purple gear, correct skills, CP and attrubutes. In that case the encounters should be balanced with that dps in mind while also considering healing and tanking capabilities of single induvidual. There are also 2 vet solo arenas that was balanced around solo players so they are a good indicator what could be expected from vet mode. That is my take at least.
Most of what you descibed is forcing difficulty on yourself by acting stupid.

Sounds good until you think of the normal mob in overland - mudcrabs balanced to fight these veterans, skeevers as well, wolves, wasps and what not - this would exactly lead to what I said before - you will feel weaker than a newbie in this area, if it is just about scaling - I think challenge should be achieved by adding something what goes more into the role play direction than continuing just to be another fighting arena - you said you want to quest and experience overland - what is basically role playing, so why not create the challenge by adding role play aspects and make first person mandatory.

Otherwise you would just have the same as everywhere else in overland again - and feel weak compared to a newbie - dangerous mudcrabs, scaled up to fight the great warrior - ridiculous.

Well, I will stop here, these are all serious suggestions by me - but if I continue hammering on them, this might be considered baiting and I am far from wanting to bait anyone - just to eventually give it a thought, if this wouldn't be something different from pure scaling again.

I’m not sure why so much attention given to animal type of enemies, they are really small portions of what you usually would fight against but there are examples of them integrated in veteran content without being a pointless slog (green area of VH, LoM, MF come to mind) and they fit right in, even a few decent mini boss fights.

Also, of course it stop being challenging over time. But there is the difference between being moderately engaged in combat or don’t pay attention to it at all because all dies anyway no matter what class, build or skills you use because it designed solely for new and casual players with no other options.

Suggestions you described sounds more like altering gameplay and, in my opinion, not in a fun way. I don’t like first person games at all, unless it’s a shooter and I don’t see how that would make combat more interesting rather than inconvenient.

LashanW

Lysette wrote: »

have you tried to use first person view in challenging combat situations?- It is quite different, if you don't really know where everyone is, if you don't turn in that direction - you don't have overview and combat at the same time like this, and this gets your dps down, if you still want to know whats going on around you - being forced into first person is more challenging than playing in zoomed out 3rd person.

It's also a great way to get vertigo.

Lysette wrote: »

I would as well not scale by your max resource, but by your actually available resource at that time, this makes resource management a bit more difficult and lowers dps as well. Furthermore let the character have role play aspects - let him be a person, who experiences pain - meaning he will perform with a delay and not at full strength - surprise, being stunned for a bit when the enemy opens the fight and not the player - fear, if health gets below a certain threshold, he is converting some of his attacks into blocking and blocks instead to attack - well I had quite a few more things like that - but role playing aspects is most likely not what you guys want in a role playing game, do you?

You keep coming up with these weird suggestions to make questing challenging and you don't understand why we don't like them. You'd understand easily if you were well-versed in endgame content. (endgame content doesn't have any of those "role playing aspects" and yet manages to be quite challenging.)

Endgame content requires that we fully utilize the combat system that's already in the game. Basic things like dodging, blocking, interrupting and avoiding AoEs are needed. Damage shields / self heals are much needed. We need to use skills and builds that are appropriate for the fight (and endgame fights last more than 5 seconds, but they don't last hours either). Soloing normal dungeons for the story is super fun and is the most enjoyable questing experience I've had in ESO so far as an endgame player. Because the story told to me by the NPCs in the dungeon actually matches the associated gameplay. Solo arenas are also great fun, but I personally didn't like the story in Maelstrom Arena much. Story in Vateshran Hollows was way more interesting.

All these good things about the current combat system are obsolete in overland/questing. Getting good at the game makes questing extremely boring. And no, we are not talking about some random mudcrab or skeewer somewhere. Why do people think we care about critters in some corner? We talk about quest enemies.

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

Why do people think we care about critters in some corner? We talk about quest enemies.

Because quest enemies are mostly the same trash mobs you see everywhere else, the cultists and the like. They aren't different than wolves, which are also quest enemies.

In general you fight trash, bosses, and mini bosses. And you don't need an entire instance to fix bosses as the big story ones are already privately instanced, they just need challenge banners. Which was a solution pretty much universally agreed on.

So what you guys are saying needs a dedicated instance is mini bosses and trash. 90% of what would be getting buffed is trash.

Like the trash mobs ARE the quest mobs. They aren't different. Buffing the trash fights is the primary benefit of having two separate difficulty versions of the game. There are not a lot of mini bosses, and the big bosses are privately instances. Most of what you fight during quests is the equivalent of trash pulls in dungeons.

Kesstryl

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

...so what would veteran overland be used for?

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

This is the part I am not understanding. Participate how? What content beyond the story and side quests would players be doing in veteran overland, because once the story is complete what else is there to do besides farming nodes or collecting surveys or digging up maps and antiquity leads? Which most would choose to do in normal overland for convenience anyway.

Would players be killing World Bosses, or doing Harrowstorms or Delves? Doing those repeatedly would become just as repetitious as dungeons and trials.

SilverBride, right now we aren't even doing the story and side-quests, because the gameplay is so disengaging it is actively driving us away.

Blackwood was an absolute waste of my money, as I don't need it for the dungeons, and the only content it gave me was unengaging quest lines and companions. I will not make the same mistake next time. If there is no content for higher end gamers, then I will no longer buy chapters.

We aren't interacting or engaging with the content, because the game design is actively driving us away. So we aren't even doing the story and side quests, and I won't, until a change is made.

I disagree that Blackwood was unengaging, I liked it far better than some of the other DLC stories. I mainly play for the stories. I'm not saying you do this, but I've played with many people that just click past all the story content just to get it done, and wonder why they didn't enjoy the story. If those people would just actually listen through the quests the first time play through, they might enjoy it more.

Chilly-McFreeze

Kesstryl wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

...so what would veteran overland be used for?

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

This is the part I am not understanding. Participate how? What content beyond the story and side quests would players be doing in veteran overland, because once the story is complete what else is there to do besides farming nodes or collecting surveys or digging up maps and antiquity leads? Which most would choose to do in normal overland for convenience anyway.

Would players be killing World Bosses, or doing Harrowstorms or Delves? Doing those repeatedly would become just as repetitious as dungeons and trials.

SilverBride, right now we aren't even doing the story and side-quests, because the gameplay is so disengaging it is actively driving us away.

Blackwood was an absolute waste of my money, as I don't need it for the dungeons, and the only content it gave me was unengaging quest lines and companions. I will not make the same mistake next time. If there is no content for higher end gamers, then I will no longer buy chapters.

We aren't interacting or engaging with the content, because the game design is actively driving us away. So we aren't even doing the story and side quests, and I won't, until a change is made.

I disagree that Blackwood was unengaging, I liked it far better than some of the other DLC stories. I mainly play for the stories. I'm not saying you do this, but I've played with many people that just click past all the story content just to get it done, and wonder why they didn't enjoy the story. If those people would just actually listen through the quests the first time play through, they might enjoy it more.

Even if we put the complains about story telling from other threads aside, point is that a good story thrives of the feelings it awakes within us: tension, danger, urgency, threat, challenge, archievement. If any and each opposition breaks from the first wind that comes their direction, none of those will come up.
A movie or book where the antagonist is facerolled isn't very thrilling either.
Not saying that each quest has to be the apex of story telling but if I blow through each and every warlord that ransacked town after town with as little as 2-3 spams while nothing can touch me, it is not engaging in any way, no matter how witty the lines, how fine the voice overs are.

Interesting lore is fine and good, if it isn't packed in engaging content it simply becomes a chore.

ShalidorsHeir

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

...so what would veteran overland be used for?

To participate in the 95% of this game's content and not be boxed into a corner of repetitious dungeons and trials?

This is the part I am not understanding. Participate how? What content beyond the story and side quests would players be doing in veteran overland, because once the story is complete what else is there to do besides farming nodes or collecting surveys or digging up maps and antiquity leads? Which most would choose to do in normal overland for convenience anyway.

Would players be killing World Bosses, or doing Harrowstorms or Delves? Doing those repeatedly would become just as repetitious as dungeons and trials.

SilverBride, right now we aren't even doing the story and side-quests, because the gameplay is so disengaging it is actively driving us away.

Blackwood was an absolute waste of my money, as I don't need it for the dungeons, and the only content it gave me was unengaging quest lines and companions. I will not make the same mistake next time. If there is no content for higher end gamers, then I will no longer buy chapters.

We aren't interacting or engaging with the content, because the game design is actively driving us away. So we aren't even doing the story and side quests, and I won't, until a change is made.

I disagree that Blackwood was unengaging, I liked it far better than some of the other DLC stories. I mainly play for the stories. I'm not saying you do this, but I've played with many people that just click past all the story content just to get it done, and wonder why they didn't enjoy the story. If those people would just actually listen through the quests the first time play through, they might enjoy it more.

Even if we put the complains about story telling from other threads aside, point is that a good story thrives of the feelings it awakes within us: tension, danger, urgency, threat, challenge, archievement. If any and each opposition breaks from the first wind that comes their direction, none of those will come up.
A movie or book where the antagonist is facerolled isn't very thrilling either.
Not saying that each quest has to be the apex of story telling but if I blow through each and every warlord that ransacked town after town with as little as 2-3 spams while nothing can touch me, it is not engaging in any way, no matter how witty the lines, how fine the voice overs are.

Intersting lore is fine and good, if it isn't packed in engaging content it simply becomes a chore.

THAT. AMEN!

Lysette

LashanW wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

have you tried to use first person view in challenging combat situations?- It is quite different, if you don't really know where everyone is, if you don't turn in that direction - you don't have overview and combat at the same time like this, and this gets your dps down, if you still want to know whats going on around you - being forced into first person is more challenging than playing in zoomed out 3rd person.

It's also a great way to get vertigo.

Lysette wrote: »

I would as well not scale by your max resource, but by your actually available resource at that time, this makes resource management a bit more difficult and lowers dps as well. Furthermore let the character have role play aspects - let him be a person, who experiences pain - meaning he will perform with a delay and not at full strength - surprise, being stunned for a bit when the enemy opens the fight and not the player - fear, if health gets below a certain threshold, he is converting some of his attacks into blocking and blocks instead to attack - well I had quite a few more things like that - but role playing aspects is most likely not what you guys want in a role playing game, do you?

You keep coming up with these weird suggestions to make questing challenging and you don't understand why we don't like them. You'd understand easily if you were well-versed in endgame content. (endgame content doesn't have any of those "role playing aspects" and yet manages to be quite challenging.)

Endgame content requires that we fully utilize the combat system that's already in the game. Basic things like dodging, blocking, interrupting and avoiding AoEs are needed. Damage shields / self heals are much needed. We need to use skills and builds that are appropriate for the fight (and endgame fights last more than 5 seconds, but they don't last hours either). Soloing normal dungeons for the story is super fun and is the most enjoyable questing experience I've had in ESO so far as an endgame player. Because the story told to me by the NPCs in the dungeon actually matches the associated gameplay. Solo arenas are also great fun, but I personally didn't like the story in Maelstrom Arena much. Story in Vateshran Hollows was way more interesting.

All these good things about the current combat system are obsolete in overland/questing. Getting good at the game makes questing extremely boring. And no, we are not talking about some random mudcrab or skeewer somewhere. Why do people think we care about critters in some corner? We talk about quest enemies.

I never came across those enemies you are talking about in normal overland content - what there is to fight is normally not much different from what is outdoors as well, I don't think that you will find what you are looking for in overland content. There is not much which would require to utilize combat tactics, otherwise we high ping players couldn't do it - because it is pretty hard to get out of red, if the attack has happened already BEFORE we can see it and react to it - that is what high ping is like. There are just a few enemies at the end of a longer quest line, where I eventually have to struggle with - the end boss. But otherwise, what one has to fight there is not much different from what is outdoors as well - there are no special NPCs, they can be found outdoors as well - so if you scale them, you scale as well all the critters and humanoids outside with it.

Questing is as well not really about combat, it has some combat, but it is more about the story than combat tactics. To me it seems, that you aren't really interested in the quests, but want a different and much larger combat area - it is not about role playing in a quest environment for you - like you said yourself, the content you are looking for has no role play elements (and that in a role playing game) - I'll say now something, what might make you angry - but it seems to be the truth from my point of view - you guys don't belong into overland content, you are missing what it is all about and would just mess it up for all of us normal players. If you get it as a private instance, fine, but I really fear, that my fun with exploring the overland will be ruined as soon as you guys are around there. (not to talk about, that your way of fighting leads to lag and frames per second will drop as well, if you are around - I don't want or need that)

Veteran instances would be appreciated though, because it keeps you off of us normal players, who enjoy questing and exploration with just a little bit of combat. I could go for a little bit harder - but after what I read here, you guys want it like 4-5 times harder than it is if not more - nah, can't do it at all and to be honest, I don't want to see you fighting like this as well - either you get a private instance or we are getting one - I would happily pay 100 dollars a year to see none of you around.

LashanW

Lysette wrote: »

otherwise we high ping players couldn't do it - because it is pretty hard to get out of red, if the attack has happened already BEFORE we can see it and react to it - that is what high ping is like.

I'm no stranger to high ping and server desyncs. I'm playing from Asia as I've mentioned before. I have to use a paid VPN service just to make the ping stable enough for endgame stuff and PvP. Here's some fun stuff that happened to me because of high ping/ desync,

Me trying to re-summon my pet after a group wipe,

Me trying to interact with a crafting station,

"Target out of range": can't count the number of times I see this msg on a daily basis, every mundane interaction involves it. It's also why I can't play melee.

Lysette wrote: »

To me it seems, that you aren't really interested in the quests, but want a different and much larger combat area - it is not about role playing in a quest environment for you - like you said yourself, the content you are looking for has no role play elements (and that in a role playing game) - I'll say now something, what might make you angry - but it seems to be the truth from my point of view - you guys don't belong into overland content, you are missing what it is all about and would just mess it up for all of us normal players. If you get it as a private instance, fine, but I really fear, that my fun with exploring the overland will be ruined as soon as you guys are around there. (not to talk about, that your way of fighting leads to lag and frames per second will drop as well, if you are around - I don't want or need that)

It's fine, I don't get angry anymore. I'm used to people on forums making all sorts of assumptions and declare what sort of player I am and what content I belong to. I will admit this is the only Elder Scrolls game I've played, as such I may be missing what questing in ESO is all about. But ESO is also the first online (MMO) game I've played, and I'm not interested in any other MMOs. I never care about competitive games without much of a story. Before coming to ESO I've spent my ~15 years of gaming playing only single player story oriented games. Story, gameplay and music. That's the 3 factors I value the most in a game. I do love role playing games with elements you described. Metro series is my favorite in that aspect. 1st person view, harsh environments, amazing story and music, weapons needed to be maintained regularly if you wanted them to work properly in combat. They must be the most immersive games I've ever played (but only the third Metro game was open world). Hell even old Far Cry 2 was excellent in such role playing aspects. But imo a game needs to be designed around it from the beginning to make it work and feel immersive.

I've given all the feedback I can think of regarding overland and questing in this thread. Had enough of being told that overland isn't for people like me and enough of people making assumptions about me while knowing nothing about me. All suggestions I gave were optional as I don't want people who currently enjoy overland as it is, to be affected.

So I'll leave this thread alone.

Lysette

LashanW wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

otherwise we high ping players couldn't do it - because it is pretty hard to get out of red, if the attack has happened already BEFORE we can see it and react to it - that is what high ping is like.

I'm no stranger to high ping and server desyncs. I'm playing from Asia as I've mentioned before. I have to use a paid VPN service just to make the ping stable enough for endgame stuff and PvP. Here's some fun stuff that happened to me because of high ping/ desync,

Me trying to re-summon my pet after a group wipe,

Me trying to interact with a crafting station,

"Target out of range": can't count the number of times I see this msg on a daily basis, every mundane interaction involves it. It's also why I can't play melee.

Lysette wrote: »

To me it seems, that you aren't really interested in the quests, but want a different and much larger combat area - it is not about role playing in a quest environment for you - like you said yourself, the content you are looking for has no role play elements (and that in a role playing game) - I'll say now something, what might make you angry - but it seems to be the truth from my point of view - you guys don't belong into overland content, you are missing what it is all about and would just mess it up for all of us normal players. If you get it as a private instance, fine, but I really fear, that my fun with exploring the overland will be ruined as soon as you guys are around there. (not to talk about, that your way of fighting leads to lag and frames per second will drop as well, if you are around - I don't want or need that)

It's fine, I don't get angry anymore. I'm used to people on forums making all sorts of assumptions and declare what sort of player I am and what content I belong to. I will admit this is the only Elder Scrolls game I've played, as such I may be missing what questing in ESO is all about. But ESO is also the first online (MMO) game I've played, and I'm not interested in any other MMOs. I never care about competitive games without much of a story. Before coming to ESO I've spent my ~15 years of gaming playing only single player story oriented games. Story, gameplay and music. That's the 3 factors I value the most in a game. I do love role playing games with elements you described. Metro series is my favorite in that aspect. 1st person view, harsh environments, amazing story and music, weapons needed to be maintained regularly if you wanted them to work properly in combat. They must be the most immersive games I've ever played (but only the third Metro game was open world). Hell even old Far Cry 2 was excellent in such role playing aspects. But imo a game needs to be designed around it from the beginning to make it work and feel immersive.

I've given all the feedback I can think of regarding overland and questing in this thread. Had enough of being told that overland isn't for people like me and enough of people making assumptions about me while knowing nothing about me. All suggestions I gave were optional as I don't want people who currently enjoy overland as it is, to be affected.

So I'll leave this thread alone.

I liked Farcry 2 a lot - and it wasn't even a hero type game - in the end you never felt like a hero and the goal to achieve was void as well, and having to deal with malaria which gets increasingly worse and stuff like that - it made you really think, what am I doing here, why I'm here at all, this is a permanent struggle leading nowhere really - Farcry 2 was unique in this way.

To the veteran thing - I think veterans and non-cp players are pretty much incompatible in the same environment, because they are seeking for different challenges - which are opposite to each other - to mix both in the same environment is just creating frustration and ruining fun - that is why I said you don't belong into overland content, if it is all about a combat challenge for you. It would make the world messy and frustrate us casuals around - not to talk about that intensive combat like you are doing it, makes the game laggy and leads to fps drops - I don't want to watch that mess around and like stable 60 fps, I don't want that dropped down to like 20 fps, due to those intensive fights - it would just ruin my gameplay.

The best solution for me would be to be offered a private overland instance - normal overland - that I can finally have a complete single player experience in ESO - with no other player around at all - this would be heaven - and I would gladly pay 100 dollars per year for it. Stable 60 fps, no mess around, all gathering nodes available - not farmed by bot farmers - no one will interfere with my questing, that would be well worth an extra 100 dollars per year to me.

Fata1moose

I haven’t felt engaged with the overland content for a while now and it comes down to two major reasons.

1. Combat: This game has a severe lack of impact and feels floaty. When the game first came out some animation work was done to try to make it feel better but the team stopped at palatable instead of good. End game combat is still fun due to dungeon/trial mechanics and the challenge of facing other players but when the combat does not feel good and there’s zero challenge in the overland content, it’s hard to get into exploring the new areas.

• To fix this, make further changes to animations and add more impact to combat. Lock animations model to model so characters are actually facing what they are hitting. Things like the bow light and heavy attacks feel so dinky and lack any force behind them. Arrows don’t make sound or even appear when hitting the environment or enemies, it makes it feel so artificial. The bow is the extreme example but everything needs work across the board. Magic has death animations for fire, why not add decapitations to melee? Or enemies toppling over with arrows in them for the bow? Audio needs more feedback in light and heavy attacks, do different sound queues for hitting light, medium and heavy armors, actually show arrows sticking to to trees and bouncing off of stone in the environment with proper impact sounds. Finally, please add a veteran overland that keeps me on my toes while going through the overland, delves and public dungeons. Overland bosses have mechanics but due to the lack of difficulty these mechanics are current completely nonsensical.

2. Dialogue Trees: I do not feel like I’m part of the story when the only dialogue options are advancing the conversation in the most linear way or asking a question that I already know the answer to. There’s very little of offering the character’s opinion that a NPC can then react to, role playing, skill checks or decision making.

• Add more dialogue options where the player can react to what’s happening, offer opinions, class specific knowledge to the situation, skill checks and decisions. Companions are also a great avenue to an improved and more player controlled story. Have dialogue options affect companion affinity, let us give helpful or dismissive remarks to the companion’s issues. Flirting and romancing would also add flavor to the story (and I know this is something the developers eventually wanted to add to companions as well. Even if dialogue options end up being more flavor than impactful it would still be better than the current dialogue tree that’s essentially advance the story in the singular way or ask a lore question.

Tornaad

I'm in the process of writing an epic poem inspired by ESO and I have just discovered that the overland content difficulty is going to make it difficult to write. Sure, I could say something like "and I cut through the endless hordes like paper" and spin that in such a way to make it feel epic, but it would also have to be short which would defeat the purpose of writing an epic poem.
On the other hand, to say something like

He took me to the edge of death
he took me so close to death
I could feel deaths bony fingers
grasping 'round my neck
...
I will not fail
I cannot fail
too much is riding on this
too many are relying on me
...
then when I learned he was just a peon
I learned fear.
I thought I had conquered that beast
I thought I was the master of fear
but seeing how powerful his lord was
showed me I had never tasted fear
...
I will not fail
I cannot fail
too much is riding on this
too many are relying on me
...
so I spit out the blood and mucus
lodged in my throat
cutting off the air trying to flee in terror
and rose up to fight again
death's fingers still grasping 'round my neck

That feels more epic. That feels like something of legend. That feels like something that would be told in stories for generations. Please add an extra difficulty level. You can simply add a new instance that you get put into by selecting the higher difficulty level. Leave the default at the current difficulty level and just add the new one as a new dedicated instance. If you wanted, you could even add a few difficulties. You could even add a difficulty that you could only add through a group finder that would be so difficult that you would need a 12-man group to have a chance at getting through it. You don't need to change mechanics. Just make it so we are facing more than sheets of paper ready to blow away in the wind.

SilverBride

@Zuboko that is awesome! I hope you will share it with us when it's complete.

One of the suggestions in this thread that seems to be well received is for challenge banners that would make the quest boss fights much more difficult. Is that something you would be interested in?

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

@Zuboko that is awesome! I hope you will share it with us when it's complete.

One of the suggestions in this thread that seems to be widely accepted is for challenge banners that would make the quest boss fights much more difficult. Is that something you would be interested in?

@SilverBride I would be open to most ideas. I was originally on the fence with it, but after I finally got to where I had a build that could run dungeons (and built the skill to do so) I started to realize how weak the overland content is.

I am happy you like the thing I threw together for this example. I don't think I would use that in my epic poem, it doesn't pack enough punch for what I want in my poem. I might try to flush that out a bit and then use it, but that is a different story. This thread has a bit of what I've written so far.

SilverBride

@Zuboko thanks for sharing!

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

@Zuboko thanks for sharing!

@SilverBride No problem. I will probably record it onto YouTube when I am done. My wife tells me it is much more powerful when I read it than when she reads any of my poetry.

Kesstryl

Zuboko wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@Zuboko that is awesome! I hope you will share it with us when it's complete.

One of the suggestions in this thread that seems to be widely accepted is for challenge banners that would make the quest boss fights much more difficult. Is that something you would be interested in?

@SilverBride I would be open to most ideas. I was originally on the fence with it, but after I finally got to where I had a build that could run dungeons (and built the skill to do so) I started to realize how weak the overland content is.

I am happy you like the thing I threw together for this example. I don't think I would use that in my epic poem, it doesn't pack enough punch for what I want in my poem. I might try to flush that out a bit and then use it, but that is a different story. This thread has a bit of what I've written so far.

You said overland was weak after you built with a dungeon build and the skills to go with it. That's the thing though, that kind of build will inherently make overland weaker. Many casuals and new players don't have a dungeon build. They will craft their sets or use overland sets, and it takes new players a lot longer to level their first toon than subsequent ones. Overland is meant to take part in a story, not be this immersive fight to the death thing. Casuals, new players, and people like me who actually also run with dungeon and trial builds don't do overland to be challenged. I do dungeons and trials to be challenged. Overland is my time to relax and enjoy the story without sweating through my hands to get it done.

Tornaad

Kesstryl wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

@Zuboko that is awesome! I hope you will share it with us when it's complete.

One of the suggestions in this thread that seems to be widely accepted is for challenge banners that would make the quest boss fights much more difficult. Is that something you would be interested in?

@SilverBride I would be open to most ideas. I was originally on the fence with it, but after I finally got to where I had a build that could run dungeons (and built the skill to do so) I started to realize how weak the overland content is.

I am happy you like the thing I threw together for this example. I don't think I would use that in my epic poem, it doesn't pack enough punch for what I want in my poem. I might try to flush that out a bit and then use it, but that is a different story. This thread has a bit of what I've written so far.

You said overland was weak after you built with a dungeon build and the skills to go with it. That's the thing though, that kind of build will inherently make overland weaker. Many casuals and new players don't have a dungeon build. They will craft their sets or use overland sets, and it takes new players a lot longer to level their first toon than subsequent ones. Overland is meant to take part in a story, not be this immersive fight to the death thing. Casuals, new players, and people like me who actually also run with dungeon and trial builds don't do overland to be challenged. I do dungeons and trials to be challenged. Overland is my time to relax and enjoy the story without sweating through my hands to get it done.

Very true. I remember when I first got started (Just before One Tamriel came out) and I was a bad enough player that I ran into a normal boss in the main story that I could not kill. I had to get help to do it. Thankfully it was not a solo only boss because otherwise I would not have been able to get past it. That is why I suggested an instance-based difficulty level. I am open to most any idea. I also recognize that there is a need for having a harder difficulty while keeping the easier difficulty at the same time. Because while over the years since I first started, I have definitely gotten better (ESO is my first MMO so I had no idea what I was doing), I also recognize that there are going to be a lot of people like me who are going to try ESO out simply because they want something new to feed their Elder Scrolls fix and many of them will be dedicated casual players.

FlopsyPrince

I still don't see a response to how long this "hard content" would keep people happy.

I am fairly certain that the current content keeps those who like it quite satisfied, even across many alts. I know I have done many quest lines literally dozens of times. Is that likely for "hard" versions of that content?

If not, how would such effort be really valuable in the long run? Would not the same ones wanting it get bored and move onto something else? After all, they don't see the Harrowstorms and such as things to keep repeating, so they do get bored with "hard" content of at least some types.