Overland Content Feedback Thread

tonyblack

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Second, all dlc alchemy ingredients already hard to come by, they expensive and rare even if they useless (looking at charius eggs and clam gall here). So even if i overcome first point, do i have to spend extra effort and gold so surrounded me players can run around, one-shotting everything and thinking what a noob I am for struggling to kill generic enemies?

You want a challenge in an environment, which is basically made for new players - overland - so to have this challenge you will have to feel like a newbie feels in those zones and struggle with generic enemies - where would otherwise be the challenge?

You cannot have both, the world of Tamriel will not be newly invented and everything changed just because you want more challenge and when you get it, you don't like it because you have to struggle with creatures, which you one-shotted before. It is clear if you want more challenge, you will not kill them in one shot anymore, but in several and some might even be able to kill you outright - like those can do this with new player now - either you want a challenge or you don't - you cannot have both.

Well, that’s the problem. Every new chapter and dlc designed for new players only. I had fun there when i was new too (it still posed no challenge and I didn’t die where I should’ve logically), but how long can you remain a new player with minimal understanding of the game you play? There are probably thousands hours worth of content by now designed exclusively for new players and it’s hard to stay positive for new releases when it would be same old tutorial difficulty you played several years ago.
And what do you mean we can’t have both? The whole discussion (1800 replies btw) full of different suggestions and ideas, some of them does provide a solutions so new and veteran players could have fun experience, I disagreed with the one i quoted because, in my opinion, it’s poorly thought out and didn’t address the reasons of complaints.

It’s not the struggle to kill something that turn me off in those kind of suggestions, but struggle to have genuine fun and sense of accomplishment in environment where most other players wouldn’t choose to nerf themselves for no reasons.
Personally, at this point, I mostly expect for some kind of experiment in new dlc only, whole Tamriel rework - unlikely. But if it’s ever going to happen i hope for quality solution.

See, you guys talk of a veteran overland where you are challenged - but what you expect, it won't be, simply because it is a huge area with complex content and the best you can hope for is something what makes you struggle with generic enemies. You guys are saying that overland is even playing naked no challenge - so to give you a challenge you have to be even worse than a newbie, because otherwise you wouldn't have a challenge, and this is your own opinion pointed back at you. So you will have to struggle with generic enemies, if you want it or not, because the world of Tamriel will not be redesigned for you, it is too big for that and too complex as well - that is what I meant with you can't have it both - if you want a challenge in an environment made for newbies, you will have to be worse than those newbies would be - and struggle with generic enemies.

Our expectations will differ because we all different individuals, but realistically I don’t expect full game rework and never claimed I did. It could start small with only main or side quests and only in new content. And honestly the way you say it you see those who want more challenge desire it just for the sake of struggle or you want them to struggle for nothing in return. I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way. Only developers can evaluate what solution would be most beneficial and cost efficient, i just voiced my concerns why I consider idea of that user bad.

Lysette

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Second, all dlc alchemy ingredients already hard to come by, they expensive and rare even if they useless (looking at charius eggs and clam gall here). So even if i overcome first point, do i have to spend extra effort and gold so surrounded me players can run around, one-shotting everything and thinking what a noob I am for struggling to kill generic enemies?

You want a challenge in an environment, which is basically made for new players - overland - so to have this challenge you will have to feel like a newbie feels in those zones and struggle with generic enemies - where would otherwise be the challenge?

You cannot have both, the world of Tamriel will not be newly invented and everything changed just because you want more challenge and when you get it, you don't like it because you have to struggle with creatures, which you one-shotted before. It is clear if you want more challenge, you will not kill them in one shot anymore, but in several and some might even be able to kill you outright - like those can do this with new player now - either you want a challenge or you don't - you cannot have both.

Well, that’s the problem. Every new chapter and dlc designed for new players only. I had fun there when i was new too (it still posed no challenge and I didn’t die where I should’ve logically), but how long can you remain a new player with minimal understanding of the game you play? There are probably thousands hours worth of content by now designed exclusively for new players and it’s hard to stay positive for new releases when it would be same old tutorial difficulty you played several years ago.
And what do you mean we can’t have both? The whole discussion (1800 replies btw) full of different suggestions and ideas, some of them does provide a solutions so new and veteran players could have fun experience, I disagreed with the one i quoted because, in my opinion, it’s poorly thought out and didn’t address the reasons of complaints.

It’s not the struggle to kill something that turn me off in those kind of suggestions, but struggle to have genuine fun and sense of accomplishment in environment where most other players wouldn’t choose to nerf themselves for no reasons.
Personally, at this point, I mostly expect for some kind of experiment in new dlc only, whole Tamriel rework - unlikely. But if it’s ever going to happen i hope for quality solution.

See, you guys talk of a veteran overland where you are challenged - but what you expect, it won't be, simply because it is a huge area with complex content and the best you can hope for is something what makes you struggle with generic enemies. You guys are saying that overland is even playing naked no challenge - so to give you a challenge you have to be even worse than a newbie, because otherwise you wouldn't have a challenge, and this is your own opinion pointed back at you. So you will have to struggle with generic enemies, if you want it or not, because the world of Tamriel will not be redesigned for you, it is too big for that and too complex as well - that is what I meant with you can't have it both - if you want a challenge in an environment made for newbies, you will have to be worse than those newbies would be - and struggle with generic enemies.

Our expectations will differ because we all different individuals, but realistically I don’t expect full game rework and never claimed I did. It could start small with only main or side quests and only in new content. And honestly the way you say it you see those who want more challenge desire it just for the sake of struggle or you want them to struggle for nothing in return. I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way. Only developers can evaluate what solution would be most beneficial and cost efficient, i just voiced my concerns why I consider idea of that user bad.

I'm interested in in myself, even I'm far from being a veteran player - none of my characters has even reached level 50 yet. But I feel like you, that most of the overland content is a little too easy for good - it doesn't have to be challenging for me, but the generic mobs are just a little too soft for good imo. But at the same time I see, that it might be quite hard to make it more challenging without feeling like a newbie again, given that the mob won't really change - wolves will be wolves, but if they should be a challenge, they have to get much stronger - and this will make you feel weaker than normal newbies around - this is what I meant - I would want for you to get more challenge, I just don't see how this could be possible in an environment, which is not made for veterans and were your enemies will still be skevers, wolves and the like - just that for a challenge they would have to be more aggressive and hit harder whilst at the same time having a damage shield which is hard to break through - which again makes you feel weaker than any of the newbies around.

Do you see my point now?

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

This and then there is the issue of that everyone should be able to group with anyone else and have a catered experience - this works quite well with One Tamriel and it's scaling - but might be a mess, when veterans with a more challenge toggle invite a newbie to group up with them - is that enemy now weak for the newbie and a beast for the veteran - and what about the XP distribution, if the newbie kills that enemy with ease - will the veteran then get his part of the challenging XP setup? There is so much room for cheating in this - it is not easy to do it in a way, which is good for everyone and is still sticking to the concept, that everyone can play with everyone else despite level differences.

We shouldn't forget, that we have One Tamriel, because people complaint, they cannot play together with their friends due to a far too large level gap between them - this is why One Tamriel firstly opened up the world and introduced scaling, in order to make it possible for players of very different levels to play together in the same environment - introducing veteran overland is now a challenge in itself - if it is a separate instance just for veterans, it creates a new barrier between players of different levels - and is a cost factor as well for ZOS. And if it is not a separate instance, newbie overland will be flooded with veterans seeking a challenge - and this might just ruin the experience of newbies - who struggle already to get to pass with the game and it's workings - I see a real problem to mix both - but if those are not mixed, those would have to be a separate instance and this means - more server cores required to run them - and this is a cost factor which isn't to underestimate.

I mean we have an example of private instances - in Fallout 76 - but those are paid for instances of the game. Well, I'm not playing Fallout 76 and do not know if that info is still valid - just to give an idea what that might cost - 12.99 a month or 100 dollars per year subscription. And that is a Bethesda game, so you can expect it to cost something like that if ZOS would introduce private veteran instances.

This said - for ZOS to read - I would be willing to pay 12.99 extra per month for a private instance of normal overland content - that I can quest without to be interrupted by other players and experience the game world as it was designed.

tonyblack

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Second, all dlc alchemy ingredients already hard to come by, they expensive and rare even if they useless (looking at charius eggs and clam gall here). So even if i overcome first point, do i have to spend extra effort and gold so surrounded me players can run around, one-shotting everything and thinking what a noob I am for struggling to kill generic enemies?

You want a challenge in an environment, which is basically made for new players - overland - so to have this challenge you will have to feel like a newbie feels in those zones and struggle with generic enemies - where would otherwise be the challenge?

You cannot have both, the world of Tamriel will not be newly invented and everything changed just because you want more challenge and when you get it, you don't like it because you have to struggle with creatures, which you one-shotted before. It is clear if you want more challenge, you will not kill them in one shot anymore, but in several and some might even be able to kill you outright - like those can do this with new player now - either you want a challenge or you don't - you cannot have both.

Well, that’s the problem. Every new chapter and dlc designed for new players only. I had fun there when i was new too (it still posed no challenge and I didn’t die where I should’ve logically), but how long can you remain a new player with minimal understanding of the game you play? There are probably thousands hours worth of content by now designed exclusively for new players and it’s hard to stay positive for new releases when it would be same old tutorial difficulty you played several years ago.
And what do you mean we can’t have both? The whole discussion (1800 replies btw) full of different suggestions and ideas, some of them does provide a solutions so new and veteran players could have fun experience, I disagreed with the one i quoted because, in my opinion, it’s poorly thought out and didn’t address the reasons of complaints.

It’s not the struggle to kill something that turn me off in those kind of suggestions, but struggle to have genuine fun and sense of accomplishment in environment where most other players wouldn’t choose to nerf themselves for no reasons.
Personally, at this point, I mostly expect for some kind of experiment in new dlc only, whole Tamriel rework - unlikely. But if it’s ever going to happen i hope for quality solution.

See, you guys talk of a veteran overland where you are challenged - but what you expect, it won't be, simply because it is a huge area with complex content and the best you can hope for is something what makes you struggle with generic enemies. You guys are saying that overland is even playing naked no challenge - so to give you a challenge you have to be even worse than a newbie, because otherwise you wouldn't have a challenge, and this is your own opinion pointed back at you. So you will have to struggle with generic enemies, if you want it or not, because the world of Tamriel will not be redesigned for you, it is too big for that and too complex as well - that is what I meant with you can't have it both - if you want a challenge in an environment made for newbies, you will have to be worse than those newbies would be - and struggle with generic enemies.

Our expectations will differ because we all different individuals, but realistically I don’t expect full game rework and never claimed I did. It could start small with only main or side quests and only in new content. And honestly the way you say it you see those who want more challenge desire it just for the sake of struggle or you want them to struggle for nothing in return. I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way. Only developers can evaluate what solution would be most beneficial and cost efficient, i just voiced my concerns why I consider idea of that user bad.

I'm interested in in myself, even I'm far from being a veteran player - none of my characters has even reached level 50 yet. But I feel like you, that most of the overland content is a little too easy for good - it doesn't have to be challenging for me, but the generic mobs are just a little too soft for good imo. But at the same time I see, that it might be quite hard to make it more challenging without feeling like a newbie again, given that the mob won't really change - wolves will be wolves, but if they should be a challenge, they have to get much stronger - and this will make you feel weaker than normal newbies around - this is what I meant - I would want for you to get more challenge, I just don't see how this could be possible in an environment, which is not made for veterans and were your enemies will still be skevers, wolves and the like - just that for a challenge they would have to be more aggressive and hit harder whilst at the same time having a damage shield which is hard to break through - which again makes you feel weaker than any of the newbies around.

Do you see my point now?

I see that you point is that overland should be made for new players only and there is no other ways around it. I disagree because there was several different solutions presented in this thread to make overland content fun for both sides.

On a side note, animals are a tiny fraction of enemy type, but they getting thrown around like they present in 90% of questing. This is misleading, because most of the time you fight cultists, knights, daedra or mages. All of them supposed to be threatening while in reality this is not the case where imperial battlemage just as powerful as generic mudcrab.

tonyblack

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

You will always have competition around kills because it's a multiplayer game. Whatever reason for the power disparity, the result is exactly the same thing. Someone else killed something before you did.

The only reason that you find these things different when it's gear, cp, rotation, etc and a debuff, is because you can't enjoy the game based solely off your own experience, but instead worry and are impacted by how others got more power than you. If you feel like they earned it, then you don't care. If they you don't feel like they did because you've been debuffed, then all of a sudden the exact same gameplay situation is negative for you.

That's entirely a perception issue.

Because from a gameplay perspective, the result is exactly the same. If something dies before you could anything meaningful to it because another player killed it first, then you don't get a meaningful interaction with that mob. They killed before you could.

Multiplayer gaming is a drawback to all solutions and impossible to rectify without making every quest it's own private instance.

Lysette

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Second, all dlc alchemy ingredients already hard to come by, they expensive and rare even if they useless (looking at charius eggs and clam gall here). So even if i overcome first point, do i have to spend extra effort and gold so surrounded me players can run around, one-shotting everything and thinking what a noob I am for struggling to kill generic enemies?

You want a challenge in an environment, which is basically made for new players - overland - so to have this challenge you will have to feel like a newbie feels in those zones and struggle with generic enemies - where would otherwise be the challenge?

You cannot have both, the world of Tamriel will not be newly invented and everything changed just because you want more challenge and when you get it, you don't like it because you have to struggle with creatures, which you one-shotted before. It is clear if you want more challenge, you will not kill them in one shot anymore, but in several and some might even be able to kill you outright - like those can do this with new player now - either you want a challenge or you don't - you cannot have both.

Well, that’s the problem. Every new chapter and dlc designed for new players only. I had fun there when i was new too (it still posed no challenge and I didn’t die where I should’ve logically), but how long can you remain a new player with minimal understanding of the game you play? There are probably thousands hours worth of content by now designed exclusively for new players and it’s hard to stay positive for new releases when it would be same old tutorial difficulty you played several years ago.
And what do you mean we can’t have both? The whole discussion (1800 replies btw) full of different suggestions and ideas, some of them does provide a solutions so new and veteran players could have fun experience, I disagreed with the one i quoted because, in my opinion, it’s poorly thought out and didn’t address the reasons of complaints.

It’s not the struggle to kill something that turn me off in those kind of suggestions, but struggle to have genuine fun and sense of accomplishment in environment where most other players wouldn’t choose to nerf themselves for no reasons.
Personally, at this point, I mostly expect for some kind of experiment in new dlc only, whole Tamriel rework - unlikely. But if it’s ever going to happen i hope for quality solution.

See, you guys talk of a veteran overland where you are challenged - but what you expect, it won't be, simply because it is a huge area with complex content and the best you can hope for is something what makes you struggle with generic enemies. You guys are saying that overland is even playing naked no challenge - so to give you a challenge you have to be even worse than a newbie, because otherwise you wouldn't have a challenge, and this is your own opinion pointed back at you. So you will have to struggle with generic enemies, if you want it or not, because the world of Tamriel will not be redesigned for you, it is too big for that and too complex as well - that is what I meant with you can't have it both - if you want a challenge in an environment made for newbies, you will have to be worse than those newbies would be - and struggle with generic enemies.

Our expectations will differ because we all different individuals, but realistically I don’t expect full game rework and never claimed I did. It could start small with only main or side quests and only in new content. And honestly the way you say it you see those who want more challenge desire it just for the sake of struggle or you want them to struggle for nothing in return. I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way. Only developers can evaluate what solution would be most beneficial and cost efficient, i just voiced my concerns why I consider idea of that user bad.

I'm interested in in myself, even I'm far from being a veteran player - none of my characters has even reached level 50 yet. But I feel like you, that most of the overland content is a little too easy for good - it doesn't have to be challenging for me, but the generic mobs are just a little too soft for good imo. But at the same time I see, that it might be quite hard to make it more challenging without feeling like a newbie again, given that the mob won't really change - wolves will be wolves, but if they should be a challenge, they have to get much stronger - and this will make you feel weaker than normal newbies around - this is what I meant - I would want for you to get more challenge, I just don't see how this could be possible in an environment, which is not made for veterans and were your enemies will still be skevers, wolves and the like - just that for a challenge they would have to be more aggressive and hit harder whilst at the same time having a damage shield which is hard to break through - which again makes you feel weaker than any of the newbies around.

Do you see my point now?

I see that you point is that overland should be made for new players only and there is no other ways around it. I disagree because there was several different solutions presented in this thread to make overland content fun for both sides.

On a side note, animals are a tiny fraction of enemy type, but they getting thrown around like they present in 90% of questing. This is misleading, because most of the time you fight cultists, knights, daedra or mages. All of them supposed to be threatening while in reality this is not the case where imperial battlemage just as powerful as generic mudcrab.

so you didn't get it - too bad, I won't try a 3rd time.

SilverBride

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

First I'd like to clarify that I never once said that I oppose any form of grouping in overland. I group quite often to help with World Bosses etc. when I am out running around. What I have said was I oppose forced grouping like Craglorn was before One Tamriel.

But my point was that there are going to be players of different levels and skills in a veteran overland just as much in normal, and sometimes they are going after the same mobs others are. It doesn't matter what mix of level or skilled players there are in any given area, there are going to be some more powerful than others and some who get in the way of what other players are trying to do. Veteran overland would not be a utopia where players will stand around waiting for others to kill that World Boss they wanted just so they don't get in the other player's way.

As far as how easy overland is, not all of us find an easy relaxing environment to be a bad thing.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

First I'd like to clarify that I never once said that I oppose any form of grouping in overland. I group quite often to help with World Bosses etc. when I am out running around. What I have said was I oppose forced grouping like Craglorn was before One Tamriel.

But my point was that there are going to be players of different levels and skills in a veteran overland just as much in normal, and sometimes they are going after the same mobs others are. It doesn't matter what mix of level or skilled players there are in any given area, there are going to be some more powerful than others and some who get in the way of what other players are trying to do. Veteran overland would not be a utopia where players will stand around waiting for others to kill that World Boss they wanted just so they don't get in the other player's way.

As far as how easy overland is, not all of us find an easy relaxing environment to be a bad thing.

Forced grouping is honestly one of the biggest reasons Craglorn's overland was such a colossal failure, even moreso than it being harder IMO. Even people who liked that kind of thing largely hated Craglorn because they didn't want to be forced to group for questing. It doesn't work well at all, and people don't want to group up for every single little thing just because it's an MMO. Almost all other PVE content is designed for groups, it's okay if overland is not.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

First I'd like to clarify that I never once said that I oppose any form of grouping in overland. I group quite often to help with World Bosses etc. when I am out running around. What I have said was I oppose forced grouping like Craglorn was before One Tamriel.

But my point was that there are going to be players of different levels and skills in a veteran overland just as much in normal, and sometimes they are going after the same mobs others are. It doesn't matter what mix of level or skilled players there are in any given area, there are going to be some more powerful than others and some who get in the way of what other players are trying to do. Veteran overland would not be a utopia where players will stand around waiting for others to kill that World Boss they wanted just so they don't get in the other player's way.

As far as how easy overland is, not all of us find an easy relaxing environment to be a bad thing.

Forced grouping is honestly one of the biggest reasons Craglorn's overland was such a colossal failure, even moreso than it being harder IMO. Even people who liked that kind of thing largely hated Craglorn because they didn't want to be forced to group for questing. It doesn't work well at all, and people don't want to group up for every single little thing just because it's an MMO. Almost all other PVE content is designed for groups, it's okay if overland is not.

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

tonyblack

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way.

There is no way to ever be on an even playing ground in an MMO that has players from level 1 up to CP 3600 in the same world. Veteran overland won't change that. It would still have players of varying levels, gear and skills, and others can still run around and delete everything in your way.

The only way for that to not happen is to have private instances of overland, which would basically turn it into a single player game.

I already said it in this thread and i say it again: CP level doesn’t impact combat capability as much as some people imply. At best it affects 10-15% of your power and most of it you get at lvl 600 when you get all slottables. After that impact is minimal. There is no difference between 1200 and 3600 CP in terms of power.
And by even playing ground I meant that if it would be veteran vs normal instance, the encounters would be balanced around vets and not fresh out lvl 3 characters. How challenging would it be is up to devs to decide.

Also I can’t take last sentence without grain of salt. You said it yourself many times that you oppose any form of grouping in overland, yet your insist that it is not a single player experience as it is? What part of it make it so important? Running through already cleared delve while quest npc who accompany you tells how dangerous it is? Waiting for 100k hp boss to spawn so you can melt it with 10 players around you? And even in quiet time where I play by myself it’s ridiculously easy as it is solo, having someone along the way would be just frustrating competition for the kills.

First I'd like to clarify that I never once said that I oppose any form of grouping in overland. I group quite often to help with World Bosses etc. when I am out running around. What I have said was I oppose forced grouping like Craglorn was before One Tamriel.

But my point was that there are going to be players of different levels and skills in a veteran overland just as much in normal, and sometimes they are going after the same mobs others are. It doesn't matter what mix of level or skilled players there are in any given area, there are going to be some more powerful than others and some who get in the way of what other players are trying to do. Veteran overland would not be a utopia where players will stand around waiting for others to kill that World Boss they wanted just so they don't get in the other player's way.

As far as how easy overland is, not all of us find an easy relaxing environment to be a bad thing.

I haven’t played back when Craglorn required groups, but it does sound like it was something that resembled difference between single player games and MMO. Now it isn’t. Grouping for quests, delves and public dungeons make 0 sense. World bosses are the only thing in overland where interacting with other players have any meaning, but most often you can just pick your daily, ride to the boss, wait for it to spawn and nuke it with all others around. No grouping required. So most of the content already have little to do with MMO aspect of the game.

And in short, to not repeat point others already made in this thread:
Debuffs route would mean veteran player have to diminish their power level to lowest point and gain nothing in return. Stay in starter difficulty while they progress far beyond. Hard to not see who would be losing side here and how this is unattractive for most.
Normal vs veteran separation would mean that everyone remains on common ground and there is no unjustified nerfs or alteration to anyone’s gameplay. The chances for grievances or toxic outcome far lower than in first case.
Private instances are best possible outcome for both parties with only concerns how much server resources it would actually require.

V_C_C_

I know I'm stepping into an argument in progress and many of my concerns have probably already been addressed but I'd still like to say my piece. I'm a disabled gamer. I have pain and limited mobility in my hands and arms. I am unable to do more challenging content like dungeons, trials, pvp, etc. On good days, I can do overland and it gives me something to look forward to. I've been a gamer for 35 years. I've had to give up on just about every other game I've loved. It killed me to miss out on the newer Zeldas but I can't do the motion controls. There's already plenty of challenging content in ESO that I'll never be able to do. Please don't take away the little bit of fun that I have left. I'm a paying customer/member too and I'm sure I'm not alone. There are more disabled/aging gamers out there that love this game and pay to play it. Don't leave us behind.

NeeScrolls

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

i swear sometimes reading this thread is like being in The Twilight Zone lol

I'm far from being "the best" player ever and i not only could (and still can) solo 83% of Craglorn, as a healer, but when i did need group help (for whatever) i never had any issues finding groups. Still don't. Sure, being GM of our guild probably helps, but even when my guildmates are offline or busy , i still have no trouble finding a random group in zone-chat. In fact, imho, ESO players are some of the quickest (and nicest) to assist in any MMO i've ever played.

Regardless, and even though i'm perfectly fine with leaving overland how it is currently, but in an effort to maybe steer this thread away from the same 3-5 posters tag-team repeating the same schpeel over & over again, i have an IDEA to propose that i don't believe has been proposed yet in 61 pages....

What about 'group scaling' for overland difficulty? As in, the larger the group, the tougher the enemies become....and...the more advanced their skills/specials become. ( i'm not talking about WB's nor Harrowstorms nor anything like that)

So, for example, a pack of 3 wolves obviously would be considered super easy to SOLO (as well they should be) . But what if, you had a group-of-4-players , that easy pack of wolves became *buffed* with more HP's , more attack types, more tactical manuevers, etc. etc.

And then this example of 'scaling' would increase exponentially depending upon how large the group was (and say it would have simple 'scale intervals', so like staged to upgrade difficulty at 2-person groups then 4-person then 8-person then finally 12-person) .

And, before someone says "well then no one would bother grouping!!!" ----The LOOT (tiers of rewards + loot % drop-rates on rare items/leads) and XP and GOLD would also 'scale adjust' too. So there would be an extra incentive to grouping....but....solo players (or casuals) wouldn't feel penalized or "thats unfair!!" or whatever.

spartaxoxo

NeeScrolls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

i swear sometimes reading this thread is like being in The Twilight Zone lol

I'm far from being "the best" player ever and i not only could (and still can) solo 83% of Craglorn, as a healer, but when i did need group help (for whatever) i never had any issues finding groups. Still don't. Sure, being GM of our guild probably helps, but even when my guildmates are offline or busy , i still have no trouble finding a random group in zone-chat. In fact, imho, ESO players are some of the quickest (and nicest) to assist in any MMO i've ever played.

Regardless, and even though i'm perfectly fine with leaving overland how it is currently, but in an effort to maybe steer this thread away from the same 3-5 posters tag-team repeating the same schpeel over & over again, i have an IDEA to propose that i don't believe has been proposed yet in 61 pages....

What about 'group scaling' for overland difficulty? As in, the larger the group, the tougher the enemies become....and...the more advanced their skills/specials become. ( i'm not talking about WB's nor Harrowstorms nor anything like that)

So, for example, a pack of 3 wolves obviously would be considered super easy to SOLO (as well they should be) . But what if, you had a group-of-4-players , that easy pack of wolves became *buffed* with more HP's , more attack types, more tactical manuevers, etc. etc.

And then this example of 'scaling' would increase exponentially depending upon how large the group was (and say it would have simple 'scale intervals', so like staged to upgrade difficulty at 2-person groups then 4-person then 8-person then finally 12-person) .

And, before someone says "well then no one would bother grouping!!!" ----The LOOT (tiers of rewards + loot % drop-rates on rare items/leads) and XP and GOLD would also 'scale adjust' too. So there would be an extra incentive to grouping....but....solo players (or casuals) wouldn't feel penalized or "thats unfair!!" or whatever.

I like this idea but I don't know how they'd accomplish it.

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The only reason that you find these things different when it's gear, cp, rotation, etc and a debuff, is because you can't enjoy the game based solely off your own experience, but instead worry and are impacted by how others got more power than you. If you feel like they earned it, then you don't care. If they you don't feel like they did because you've been debuffed, then all of a sudden the exact same gameplay situation is negative for you.

That's entirely a perception issue.

Because from a gameplay perspective, the result is exactly the same. If something dies before you could anything meaningful to it because another player killed it first, then you don't get a meaningful interaction with that mob. They killed before you could.

Perception matters. Ever wondered why self-debuffs aren't often implemented in veteran PvE content?

Imagine if the 30k/100k mobs you see in overland/questing are also placed in veteran dungeons/trials (instead of the mobs you see now with millions of health). They'll still have the advanced mechanics. And a global debuff (like battlespirit) which greatly reduces your damage done, and greatly increases your damage taken, is also applied to all players inside the instance (the debuff would be dungeon/trial specific). Result is still the same the right? It could make things so much easier for ZoS, especially when it comes to handling power creep and nerfs. Players nuking a vet trial while skipping mechanics thanks to power creep? ez, simply re-adjust the global debuff for that trial. Players are almost always failing to complete a certain veteran dungeon because incoming damage is too high? ez, re-adjust the global debuff for that dungeon.

So why isn't the game designed like that? Because it's often perceived as "not fun". It's not that bad in the example I provided, because the debuff is applied to all inside the instance, and generally veteran content has better rewards so the incentive is there.

Nobody except the odd guy in a million would use such debuffs with no benefits, especially if you are mixed with people not using the debuff. Because it feels stupid to use. What if a normal player drags a train of mobs through you while you were debuffed?

How many people used the Calamity ring in Dark Souls 1 and 3 and finished the game? I don't know anyone. Only saw 1 youtuber using it to get some views. (that ring doubles your damage taken but you get nothing in return) In contrast how many people used Covenant of Champions in Dark Souls 2? Or the Bell demon debuff and removal of Kuro's Charm in Sekiro? Those definitely saw more use. I personally used all three of them. Why? Because they had small benefits attached to them (like more loot from enemies and higher xp and currency gain). Those benefits were small, nothing game changing. But thanks to them people didn't feel stupid for using them.

SilverBride wrote: »

But my point was that there are going to be players of different levels and skills in a veteran overland just as much in normal, and sometimes they are going after the same mobs others are. It doesn't matter what mix of level or skilled players there are in any given area, there are going to be some more powerful than others and some who get in the way of what other players are trying to do. Veteran overland would not be a utopia where players will stand around waiting for others to kill that World Boss they wanted just so they don't get in the other player's way.

It happens much less often in veteran content.

How often do you see an experienced player running ahead killing everything in a normal dungeon before others can join in? Fairly often I'd say.
How often do you see the above happen in a veteran dungeon? Almost never. You might see it in a easy base game dungeon but it's rare to see in version II dungeons, and you'll never see it vet DLC dungeons.

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

Debuffs route would mean veteran player have to diminish their power level to lowest point and gain nothing in return. .

I mean, is the main reason you want a harder difficulty because you want more rewards, or is it because you want a greater challenge in the game? For the big bad not to die in one hit, the mobs be a threat, etc?

If what you want primarily is the increased difficulty, then it's kind of strange to define the increased difficulty as "gaining nothing," in return, as it would grant the primary reason for the request: a greater challenge.

Many games have used debuffs to increase difficulty, and they are also popular in modding.

SilverBride

NeeScrolls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

i swear sometimes reading this thread is like being in The Twilight Zone lol

I'm far from being "the best" player ever and i not only could (and still can) solo 83% of Craglorn, as a healer, but when i did need group help (for whatever) i never had any issues finding groups. Still don't.

I solo most of Craglorn, too but I was referring to Craglorn before One Tamriel. No one was soloing that mess.

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

How many people used the Calamity ring in Dark Souls 1 and 3 and finished the game? I don't know anyone. Only saw 1 youtuber using it to get some views. (that ring doubles your damage taken but you get nothing in return) In contrast how many people used Covenant of Champions in Dark Souls 2? Or the Bell demon debuff and removal of Kuro's Charm in Sekiro? Those definitely saw more use. I personally used all three of them. Why? Because they had small benefits attached to them (like more loot from enemies and higher xp and currency gain). Those benefits were small, nothing game changing. But thanks to them people didn't feel stupid for using them.

I mean, I never stated that the debuffs couldn't come with more gains either. People are just choosing to interpret the suggestion in the least charitable way, because it's easier to argue against.

For example, earlier in the thread I mentioned it should come with something like +% gold gain +increased quality drops for example.

I don't think it should come with titles/achievements because they are one time use, but I have stated that something like blue instead of green drops or a bit more gold would be appropriate.

I just think such things are secondary to the main thing they provide, increased difficulty. And some here feel that increased difficulty is entirely negated by it being a debuff instead of a complete overhaul of the older content.

newtinmpls

LashanW wrote: »

Nobody except the odd guy in a million would use such debuffs with no benefits

This describes a LOT of the Skyrim players who use the "make the game harder" type of addons, because what they want is a challenge.

LashanW wrote: »

especially if you are mixed with people not using the debuff. Because it feels stupid to use. What if a normal player drags a train of mobs through you while you were debuffed?

And yes if someone is super concerned about what "other people" are doing - well that's an issue for them.

And "what if a normal player drags a train of mobs" - well if the goal is "more of a challenge", then I don't see how this is a bad thing.

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

How often do you see an experienced player running ahead killing everything in a normal dungeon before others can join in? Fairly often I'd say.
How often do you see the above happen in a veteran dungeon? Almost never. You might see it in a easy base game dungeon but it's rare to see in version II dungeons, and you'll never see it vet DLC dungeons.

That is because the vet player is much stronger than the normal mobs.

In overland, that same vet player would be debuffed and would thus have the mobs hitting as hard as they did in the vet DLC dungeons. And the typical player they'd run into would have 5k-10k dps and would NOT be pulling large groups, in fact such players complain constantly about people doing that on normal. Because they can't handle that.

The only time it would come up is if a vet overland player ran into another vet overland player, but one of them wasn't using the debuffs because they aren't bored by the mobs being easy.

As defined by the users in this thread, such a player is uncommon in the first place. The entire premise of this entire thing falls completely apart if we don't consider that true.

So they may rarely come across another vet player that hits harder than them, that's true of all solutions.

There is zero gameplay difference, it's all just perception.

The only cure to that is private instances.

Lysette

tonyblack wrote: »

Private instances are best possible outcome for both parties with only concerns how much server resources it would actually require.

In the worst case I would say a core per private instance - this is what a price of 12.99/mo. or 100 dollars a year, like it is in Fallout 76, suggests - eventually several private instances of the same region could be stacked on one core, which would then generate profit, but eventually as well cause lag for some instances. The worst case would be 1 player in every region in a private instance - then we would have about 4 server blades per platform resp. global location - given instance stacking.

NeeScrolls

SilverBride wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

i swear sometimes reading this thread is like being in The Twilight Zone lol

I'm far from being "the best" player ever and i not only could (and still can) solo 83% of Craglorn, as a healer, but when i did need group help (for whatever) i never had any issues finding groups. Still don't.

I solo most of Craglorn, too but I was referring to Craglorn before One Tamriel. No one was soloing that mess.

ahh ok, yeah sometimes i forget how things existed before 'One Tamriel' lol . Of course, i also don't have any problem with having 1 or 2 map zones (like Craglorn) being specifically tailored toward GROUP content...even though technically it's still "overland" .

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That was the biggest issue for me with Craglorn. I am a completionist and it was impossible to find groups for quests because all anyone grouped for was zerging. And it was too difficult to solo.

i swear sometimes reading this thread is like being in The Twilight Zone lol

I'm far from being "the best" player ever and i not only could (and still can) solo 83% of Craglorn, as a healer, but when i did need group help (for whatever) i never had any issues finding groups. Still don't. Sure, being GM of our guild probably helps, but even when my guildmates are offline or busy , i still have no trouble finding a random group in zone-chat. In fact, imho, ESO players are some of the quickest (and nicest) to assist in any MMO i've ever played.

Regardless, and even though i'm perfectly fine with leaving overland how it is currently, but in an effort to maybe steer this thread away from the same 3-5 posters tag-team repeating the same schpeel over & over again, i have an IDEA to propose that i don't believe has been proposed yet in 61 pages....

What about 'group scaling' for overland difficulty? As in, the larger the group, the tougher the enemies become....and...the more advanced their skills/specials become. ( i'm not talking about WB's nor Harrowstorms nor anything like that)

So, for example, a pack of 3 wolves obviously would be considered super easy to SOLO (as well they should be) . But what if, you had a group-of-4-players , that easy pack of wolves became *buffed* with more HP's , more attack types, more tactical manuevers, etc. etc.

And then this example of 'scaling' would increase exponentially depending upon how large the group was (and say it would have simple 'scale intervals', so like staged to upgrade difficulty at 2-person groups then 4-person then 8-person then finally 12-person) .

And, before someone says "well then no one would bother grouping!!!" ----The LOOT (tiers of rewards + loot % drop-rates on rare items/leads) and XP and GOLD would also 'scale adjust' too. So there would be an extra incentive to grouping....but....solo players (or casuals) wouldn't feel penalized or "thats unfair!!" or whatever.

I like this idea but I don't know how they'd accomplish it.

You seem to be the only one lol

But anyways, i don't know the inner workings of ESO coding but i have worked within code infrastructure of another MMO whereby this type of 'group scaling' thing i proposed ^^ was indeed accomplished.

However, i'm guessing the @ZOS_ dev team is far more interested in adding NEW content, rather than having to re-tread over overland yet again.

Lysette

So far we have heared reasons for why you want it, but not how you want it to be like - you just expect ZOS to find a solution for a problem which isn't defined well enough - so how do you expect it to be your veteran overland?

spartaxoxo

NeeScrolls wrote: »

However, i'm guessing the @ZOS_ dev team is far more interested in adding NEW content, rather than having to re-tread over overland yet again.

I mean it was a totally different topic, but they have actually stated explicitly this about going back and fixing old content.

When they had that Deadlands Q&A, I asked about the "join encounter in progress," function, and whether or not the old dungeon quests would be changed to where they didn't break because of it. But they didn't perceive the comment that way and thought I was asking about unskippable dialogue more generally speaking. And they started talking about how they know the unskippable dialogue in Dragonstar Arena is not ideal.

They then told me their tools have evolved a lot since then, and it would be a ton of work to go back and fix up older content. They said that just the DSA change would take an estimated 3 months of time. And that they think that time would be better spent making new content instead of working on older stuff. And that as a general rule they don't go back to old content, but instead focus on new content.

This is why I have suggested the following package for increasing difficulty

*Debuffs <---can be used anywhere so is a very cheap, easy change for the old stuff
*Challenge Banners for Big Bosses
*Entirely NEW zones that are adventure zones with standalone stories that are difficult <---more likely to get a ton of work for NEW things.

But everyone always ignores the idea of NEW standalone vet zones in favor of overhauling all of the old ones. I just don't find it realistic at all, nor would I want them to because it would almost certainly mean we stop getting quality new content in the meantime. For what? So that mudcrabs are a bit tougher? Because challenge banners, the only thing everyone agreed on, already addresses the bosses. So what we're talking about outside of that is trashmobs and mini bosses.

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I mean, I never stated that the debuffs couldn't come with more gains either. People are just choosing to interpret the suggestion in the least charitable way, because it's easier to argue against.

For example, earlier in the thread I mentioned it should come with something like +% gold gain +increased quality drops for example.

I don't think it should come with titles/achievements because they are one time use, but I have stated that something like blue instead of green drops or a bit more gold would be appropriate.

That makes so much more sense and I'd 100% agree. I'm only against self-debuffs with zero benefits as I've seen them before and know how pointless / unused they are (in games with online elements).

newtinmpls wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Nobody except the odd guy in a million would use such debuffs with no benefits

This describes a LOT of the Skyrim players who use the "make the game harder" type of addons, because what they want is a challenge.

Probably bad wording on my part, but you also cropped what I said right after in the same sentence. I was talking about online games.

FlopsyPrince

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

If Zenimax cannot, and will not give us veteran overland. Fine. I accept it, and I have always said I will accept it. But I want to see more for the mid tier/end game community. Im sorry, But 4 dungeons a year is not enough when you run 20+ vet dungeons a day. I do that on one toon, for fun. I dont even do the whole alt thing. I might jump on my healer or tank occasionally, but most of my gameplay is on one toon for pve. If I sat there and told you guys, that you had to only do the bal foyen quests, over and over, for an entire year - You'd lose your darn marbles (as to be expected - This is what is being asked of us in the mid tier/end game community, to just sit in the same difficulty levels, or exact same content for long periods of time because we cannot enjoy overland in the basic state that it is in, even limiting ourselves) Can we please come to a consensus that if veteran overland is not an option for the game moving forward, that we need to look into more dungeon/trial content releases in a year then? And I dont want anyone sitting there and saying the dungeon quality will suffer if they deliver more - No. That is what all my money goes towards, staffing costs as far as Im concerned, they can hire more staff to deliver this so their team is not overworked. (Not to mention, you cant fool me Zenimax, I see you're using hammers in dungeons in place of hooks for torture devices. I got my eye on you )

How many players do 20+ vet dungeons each day? I would bet it is a very small number. I barely do 1 each day, normal, across my characters.

I may be the odd one out, but I bet I am closer to the norm than the other end.

NeeScrolls

Lysette wrote: »

So far we have heared reasons for why you want it, but not how you want it to be like - you just expect ZOS to find a solution for a problem which isn't defined well enough - so how do you expect it to be your veteran overland?

uhh, who are you talking to lol ?

If you're talking to ME , then i mean i already explained everything necessary in my other post ^^. So unless Zenimax wants to hire me, sorry i'm not gonna sit here and type out the actual 29579587954 lines of c++ CODE for them.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

However, i'm guessing the @ZOS_ dev team is far more interested in adding NEW content, rather than having to re-tread over overland yet again.

But everyone always ignores the idea of NEW standalone vet zones in favor of overhauling all of the old ones.

Agreed. Much easier to condition players for new content, when they go in expecting/preparing for increased difficulty & challenges, than it is to try retro-fitting already established-to-be-easy content somehow thinking making it harder will satisfy rational human-gamers who cherish that which they are most accustomed to.

FlopsyPrince

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Second, all dlc alchemy ingredients already hard to come by, they expensive and rare even if they useless (looking at charius eggs and clam gall here). So even if i overcome first point, do i have to spend extra effort and gold so surrounded me players can run around, one-shotting everything and thinking what a noob I am for struggling to kill generic enemies?

You want a challenge in an environment, which is basically made for new players - overland - so to have this challenge you will have to feel like a newbie feels in those zones and struggle with generic enemies - where would otherwise be the challenge?

You cannot have both, the world of Tamriel will not be newly invented and everything changed just because you want more challenge and when you get it, you don't like it because you have to struggle with creatures, which you one-shotted before. It is clear if you want more challenge, you will not kill them in one shot anymore, but in several and some might even be able to kill you outright - like those can do this with new player now - either you want a challenge or you don't - you cannot have both.

Well, that’s the problem. Every new chapter and dlc designed for new players only. I had fun there when i was new too (it still posed no challenge and I didn’t die where I should’ve logically), but how long can you remain a new player with minimal understanding of the game you play? There are probably thousands hours worth of content by now designed exclusively for new players and it’s hard to stay positive for new releases when it would be same old tutorial difficulty you played several years ago.
And what do you mean we can’t have both? The whole discussion (1800 replies btw) full of different suggestions and ideas, some of them does provide a solutions so new and veteran players could have fun experience, I disagreed with the one i quoted because, in my opinion, it’s poorly thought out and didn’t address the reasons of complaints.

It’s not the struggle to kill something that turn me off in those kind of suggestions, but struggle to have genuine fun and sense of accomplishment in environment where most other players wouldn’t choose to nerf themselves for no reasons.
Personally, at this point, I mostly expect for some kind of experiment in new dlc only, whole Tamriel rework - unlikely. But if it’s ever going to happen i hope for quality solution.

See, you guys talk of a veteran overland where you are challenged - but what you expect, it won't be, simply because it is a huge area with complex content and the best you can hope for is something what makes you struggle with generic enemies. You guys are saying that overland is even playing naked no challenge - so to give you a challenge you have to be even worse than a newbie, because otherwise you wouldn't have a challenge, and this is your own opinion pointed back at you. So you will have to struggle with generic enemies, if you want it or not, because the world of Tamriel will not be redesigned for you, it is too big for that and too complex as well - that is what I meant with you can't have it both - if you want a challenge in an environment made for newbies, you will have to be worse than those newbies would be - and struggle with generic enemies.

Our expectations will differ because we all different individuals, but realistically I don’t expect full game rework and never claimed I did. It could start small with only main or side quests and only in new content. And honestly the way you say it you see those who want more challenge desire it just for the sake of struggle or you want them to struggle for nothing in return. I want it for the sense of accomplishment, be immersed and engaged by my surroundings and actions, be on even playing ground with other players, not to nerf myself to lowest possible level and see other players run around and delete everything on my way. Only developers can evaluate what solution would be most beneficial and cost efficient, i just voiced my concerns why I consider idea of that user bad.

Wouldn't you quickly run through the content if it was only that much?

Remember that players always consume content far faster than it takes to create it.

Would you be happy at that point?

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Debuffs route would mean veteran player have to diminish their power level to lowest point and gain nothing in return. .

I mean, is the main reason you want a harder difficulty because you want more rewards, or is it because you want a greater challenge in the game? For the big bad not to die in one hit, the mobs be a threat, etc?

If what you want primarily is the increased difficulty, then it's kind of strange to define the increased difficulty as "gaining nothing," in return, as it would grant the primary reason for the request: a greater challenge.

Many games have used debuffs to increase difficulty, and they are also popular in modding.

Well, you said it yourself perception. And it matters more than you gave it credit.
I don’t get why playing on even ground is such alien concept for some. I wouldn’t mind to come across other players in vet instances and make my experience slightly less challenging for short while. But I do mind undoing all progress I made, ruining any form of immersion and build variety, just so I could fight alongside new players. There is no value for me to do so.
I also agree with most points LashanW made. If existing veteran content would be designed through debuffs it would be much more dull than the way it presented now.

And as a side note. I see a lot of people in this thread misunderstood what makes up for a good challenge in the game (any game) and take it to extreme levels in one dimension ignoring anything else. As an example, while steam sale was on I was searching for something new to play and come across a lot of smaller titles who tried to copy “Souls” formula. The ones that have mixed reviews do have a challenge in gameplay, but they also lack of build variety, lackluster loot systems and rewards, shallow level design and exploration, poor enemies design and again low variety, unfair boss fights and lack sense of progression. Challenging is not exclusively tied to struggle, self-punishment and pain, but people who perceive it that way won’t understand the difference.