Overland Content Feedback Thread

Vulkunne

Lysette wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

But it does. It does make the story less believable because there is nothing to risk in taking down the enemies, where applicable.

That's what I enjoyed about Oblivion, yeah some Goblins and Rats were easy to kill and others were not but it always felt like a well-tempered experience. The hard fights are what makes a quest memorable. But I think part of the problem, unfort, is maybe they focused on putting in too many quests and it all blends together. For example, in Oblivion we have the hunt for Mehrunes Razor. My favorite quest from Oblivion by far. You meet varying degrees of enemies and solve interesting problems and in general it takes some time to get to know the place in order to pass the quest.

Now in Oblivion, all quests aren't like this and they don't need to be. But this is the point. Oblivion quests were engaging, intriguing, sparked the imagination a little bit and made the player question their build, their choices, the direction they were heading in the game. But if everything was just ridiculously easy like it is now with ESO Overland, no one would care about the content. ESO has some of this but overtime given the sheer volume of quests it all sort of blends together. And I say this respectfully, its also a Balance thing. It is not just about difficulty however I think that any disagreement over how difficulty should be assigned can be resolved thru lore, as this has worked just fine for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

It is literally the difference between reading a good murder mystery and reading something with no depth. I don't have much of a library anymore but growing up I had all kinds of science fiction novels and horror/murder mysteries which I always took my time reading because they were interesting and presented me with unique situations.

I don't know if Oblivion is a good example - my characters were gods with level 20 - due to spell crafting - all you need are weapons absorbing the stats from your opponents and fast weapons for a quick stats transfer - and you are a god in Oblivion, killing everything with ease and no challenge at all -- you simply absorb their strength and endurance until they are frozen in place and as powerful as a kitchen towel.

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

StevieKingslayer

mickeyx wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

And Harrowstorms illustrate the lack of value for most doing veteran overland content. I rarely see anyone doing these except during an event. I jumped in with 2 others the other day and spent 20-30 minutes trying to work it, but the pillars kept getting back to full health almost immediately, meaning we had absolutely NO PROGRESS after all that effort. This is "fun"?

At least less powerful players can do something to Dolmans. They can do nothing here because the towers are constantly healed with the spirits while masses of mobs spawn to kill you.

I am sure we will get some to jump on here that say "I solo those!" and I am sure they do. But how much of their time do they spend doing that? They most likely have gotten bored and moved on.

That is exactly what would happen to veteran overland. Lots of time making things very hard that the target audience would not stick with.

I couldn't agree more.

We already had veteran overland zones an no one played them. That and the split playerbase are two of the biggest reasons why One Tamriel was introduced. If anything ESO has gotten more casual over time and is doing better now than it ever has.

I believe it would be a huge step backward to split the playerbase again, and would cause a lot of casual players to leave, especially if a veteran overland offered better rewards.

this has been mentioned many times before. Harrowstorm, Dragons and Craglorn. Ignored by players. Other than Skyreach which is a grinding spot and people charge you gold to level you there. The rest of the Craglorn is deserted. That's why i can't take 'make overland hard pls' crowd seriously. We already know how hard overland is being ignored by the majority of the player base.

Also, trash mob is trash for a reason and is meant to be obliterated in as little time as possible. I dont know why people think buffing trash mobs would make anything more fun. I enjoy FFXIV a lot for that very reason. Minimal trash mob in stories as well as in dungeons. And i appreciate ESO for not wasting my time and let me experience stories with minimal downtime and obstacles.

Edited to add 'Dragons' to the post. Those poor things are ignored as well.

Im sorry for the super late reply on this, but I'd like to point this as my reasoning for not doing dragons/harrowstorms as a hardcore 'vet instance' wisher. I turn up the harrowstorm, Im alone or with one other. I start doing it, Im enjoying how rough it is, I feel a threat....and then 30 other people show up all in one conga line and RUIN the experience for us (not exaggerating, one night i tried it constantly and i was constantly interrupted by large amounts of people showing up. No event, No reason for the zone to be popping like it clearly was). And No, I do not play in US prime time. I play Oceanic. When everyone in the US is asleep. You struggle to see one person typing in zone.

Explain to me, how you cannot not take me and my opinion seriously, when that is what I have to deal with. Imagine being told "Oh but you HAVE harder overland". Yeah, I had ONE THING they gave us in each of the new lands that was somewhat harder, until the zerg crew decides to show up and just farm their vile coag's and run off leaving me to wait another 5 minutes for an attempt at it again, only to have the SAME THING happen again because their farming them on cycles at a DEAD TIMEZONE ANYWAY. There is nothing we can do to stop that. Thats why we dont go to harrowstorms, or craglorn, or the dragons. They are targets for farming because of what they drop, and therefore, they are a challenge for two seconds before the timer zerg rolls up. I dont mean this to come off as rude and argumentative as it probably is appearing to be (I am extremely passionate about veteran overland, and Im tired of no one actually asking us why we aren't participating in the "harder" overland content - Hence my long winded reply to you, I have been waiting a long time for someone to ask us why we dont participate in -that- content, There is no way for us to have it be hard, unless we are lucky enough to have absolutely NO ONE around, which is impossible in my timezone, since thats when all the zones basically get merged into one due to the smaller amount of players on.)
__________________________________
I would be considered by most of you as an 'end game' player. You're all talking about min maxxed trial gear. I kick and scream having to put on anything meta, and I am sternly VOWED AGAINST Kilt on a dps. I do not run meta. I run meme off meta. I take a year sometimes to change one thing on my build because I dont darn well wanna change it. I play -like- a casual person would gear wise. It irritates me that people seem to believe this is about gear. It isnt. It is about A) Engaging Storytelling, reflected with combat to match and/or More content for end gamers to do, so we are not reduced to badgering regular players with our needs.

If Zenimax cannot, and will not give us veteran overland. Fine. I accept it, and I have always said I will accept it. But I want to see more for the mid tier/end game community. Im sorry, But 4 dungeons a year is not enough when you run 20+ vet dungeons a day. I do that on one toon, for fun. I dont even do the whole alt thing. I might jump on my healer or tank occasionally, but most of my gameplay is on one toon for pve. If I sat there and told you guys, that you had to only do the bal foyen quests, over and over, for an entire year - You'd lose your darn marbles (as to be expected - This is what is being asked of us in the mid tier/end game community, to just sit in the same difficulty levels, or exact same content for long periods of time because we cannot enjoy overland in the basic state that it is in, even limiting ourselves) Can we please come to a consensus that if veteran overland is not an option for the game moving forward, that we need to look into more dungeon/trial content releases in a year then? And I dont want anyone sitting there and saying the dungeon quality will suffer if they deliver more - No. That is what all my money goes towards, staffing costs as far as Im concerned, they can hire more staff to deliver this so their team is not overworked. (Not to mention, you cant fool me Zenimax, I see you're using hammers in dungeons in place of hooks for torture devices. I got my eye on you )

Elsonso

Vulkunne wrote: »

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

Sigh. You can't use the modded versions of games as examples of how ZOS should do ESO. Chances are, no one but you plays that game, and no one but you knows what it is like to play that game. You can talk about game play changes that specific mods make, of course...

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

Sigh. You can't use the modded versions of games as examples of how ZOS should do ESO. Chances are, no one but you plays that game, and no one but you knows what it is like to play that game.

Mods have been an integral part of elder scrolls series games for a pretty long time now. Many people have played these mods and if they haven't they are at least aware of their existence. I know that the anniversary edition also made some of these mods official. They are at the very least, a good example of the kinds of things that players want to see in existing franchises. This is why I think it's important to note that many players mod games to increase the difficulty or even to decrease the difficulty with God modes and survival/realistic modes both being very popular in many games.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

Sigh. You can't use the modded versions of games as examples of how ZOS should do ESO. Chances are, no one but you plays that game, and no one but you knows what it is like to play that game.

Mods have been an integral part of elder scrolls series games for a pretty long time now. Many people have played these mods and if they haven't they are at least aware of their existence. I know that the anniversary edition also made some of these mods official. They are at the very least, a good example of the kinds of things that players want to see in existing franchises. This is why I think it's important to note that many players mod games to increase the difficulty or even to decrease the difficulty with God modes and survival/realistic modes both being very popular in many games.

Yes, but that sort of experience is never coming to ESO. When people say "make it like what Oblivion did" and then they are using a pile of mods that change what Oblivion did, how does anyone know what they are talking about?

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

Sigh. You can't use the modded versions of games as examples of how ZOS should do ESO. Chances are, no one but you plays that game, and no one but you knows what it is like to play that game.

Mods have been an integral part of elder scrolls series games for a pretty long time now. Many people have played these mods and if they haven't they are at least aware of their existence. I know that the anniversary edition also made some of these mods official. They are at the very least, a good example of the kinds of things that players want to see in existing franchises. This is why I think it's important to note that many players mod games to increase the difficulty or even to decrease the difficulty with God modes and survival/realistic modes both being very popular in many games.

Yes, but that sort of experience is never coming to ESO. When people say "make it like what Oblivion did" and then they are using a pile of mods that change what Oblivion did, how does anyone know what they are talking about?

Perhaps not, but we can have things like new instances, debuffs, or even a normal and vet mode like we have now in the dungeons. I personally don't see them ever overhauling the entire old game, but maybe they will add debuffs and new zones with standalone stories that are built with difficulty in mind similar to Craglorn. Others certainly don't agree with me, and that is also fine.

Lysette

Vulkunne wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

But it does. It does make the story less believable because there is nothing to risk in taking down the enemies, where applicable.

That's what I enjoyed about Oblivion, yeah some Goblins and Rats were easy to kill and others were not but it always felt like a well-tempered experience. The hard fights are what makes a quest memorable. But I think part of the problem, unfort, is maybe they focused on putting in too many quests and it all blends together. For example, in Oblivion we have the hunt for Mehrunes Razor. My favorite quest from Oblivion by far. You meet varying degrees of enemies and solve interesting problems and in general it takes some time to get to know the place in order to pass the quest.

Now in Oblivion, all quests aren't like this and they don't need to be. But this is the point. Oblivion quests were engaging, intriguing, sparked the imagination a little bit and made the player question their build, their choices, the direction they were heading in the game. But if everything was just ridiculously easy like it is now with ESO Overland, no one would care about the content. ESO has some of this but overtime given the sheer volume of quests it all sort of blends together. And I say this respectfully, its also a Balance thing. It is not just about difficulty however I think that any disagreement over how difficulty should be assigned can be resolved thru lore, as this has worked just fine for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

It is literally the difference between reading a good murder mystery and reading something with no depth. I don't have much of a library anymore but growing up I had all kinds of science fiction novels and horror/murder mysteries which I always took my time reading because they were interesting and presented me with unique situations.

I don't know if Oblivion is a good example - my characters were gods with level 20 - due to spell crafting - all you need are weapons absorbing the stats from your opponents and fast weapons for a quick stats transfer - and you are a god in Oblivion, killing everything with ease and no challenge at all -- you simply absorb their strength and endurance until they are frozen in place and as powerful as a kitchen towel.

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

I know, my skyrim is basically more a survival game than an adventurous one - I use the winter edition, frostfall, better needs and several mods which remove items from stores, which wouldn't be available in a general goods store or which wouldn't be sold to the public by mages - I could buy leather or materials, but they are so expensive, that hunting really makes sense - wouldn't there be this unforgiving cold, which requires me to pitch a tent somewhere and rest every couple of hours to warm up again - I know mods for skyrim quite well, but the challenge I'm looking for is not harder enemies, but harsher environments - that is why I came to love no man's sky despite it's overly vibrant color schemes - but there I find gameplay I really like outside of combat.

The funny thing with "outside of combat" activities like the antiquities system (which I really like) is, that it gets me in more combat situations than ever before - but I have a non-combat goal (unearthing treasures) and so I'm not bothered by having to fight there - which gains me levels faster than I actually want to progress - but it is fun and I enjoy these "outside of combat" goals - no one forces me to kill these creatures or people - but if they mess with me, their fault, I cannot allow this to happen.

Lysette

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

There are many mods out there, especially these days, for Oblivion and Skyrim so the situation described is not necessarily true outside of vanilla Oblivion.

What makes Oblivion such a great example, is the ability to use various realism mods to counter undesirable aspects of the game. The fact that there were/are so many of these 'realism' mods is a glowing indicator that a large portion of the associated fanbase felt there was still much work to be done with these games.

I used OOO for Oblivion and a bunch of stuff for Skyrim. If you goto Nexus Mods and just look up realism mods you will see thousands of downloads, hundreds of posts and an enormous amount of interest in these mod authors and their work.

Sigh. You can't use the modded versions of games as examples of how ZOS should do ESO. Chances are, no one but you plays that game, and no one but you knows what it is like to play that game.

Mods have been an integral part of elder scrolls series games for a pretty long time now. Many people have played these mods and if they haven't they are at least aware of their existence. I know that the anniversary edition also made some of these mods official. They are at the very least, a good example of the kinds of things that players want to see in existing franchises. This is why I think it's important to note that many players mod games to increase the difficulty or even to decrease the difficulty with God modes and survival/realistic modes both being very popular in many games.

Yes, but that sort of experience is never coming to ESO. When people say "make it like what Oblivion did" and then they are using a pile of mods that change what Oblivion did, how does anyone know what they are talking about?

this - I guess we all played quite different versions of oblivion and skyrim due to mods or gameplay changes made, and so we have as well a quite different opinion about if these games were challenging or not so much.

Simple changes, like not using fast travel in Skyrim have interesting consequences - because now you encounter dragons by far more often than you would want to - travelling on foot lets them spawn quite frequently and sometimes are a bunch of them in the sky causing havoc to the wildlife - that game is clearly not made for not using fast travel - but it is more immersive this way. After a while playing like this, one gets used to that there are always dragons in the sky somewhere, but why mess with them, if they don't directly attack.

newtinmpls

casparian wrote: »

No, unequipping our gear/CP isn't a solution.
If it were, we would simply do that and have fun. Lots of us have tried that, and it doesn't actually make delves and overland content any more challenging or engaging.

Interesting; and I would like to hear more. This is the first time I've heard someone report they have done it and everything was still too easy. Mostly what I hear / read is that "I shouldn't have to do that" which translates to "I don't want to" and sidesteps the issue of what it does/would do.

I know for me a change of gear makes a huge difference, but I am by no means an endgame/optimized player.

newtinmpls

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

I understand people dont -want- harder everything overland. Thats okay, but can we have something, anything, please?

This line caught my attention.

I've played since about 2 months post PC drop, and one thing I remember - and loved - was how hard dolmens used to be. It used to be basically impossible to solo them, and I can't even count how many times folks would call for help in zone - and the best of them (the most skilled players) would be saying something like "got X dolmen but can't finish the last boss".

I liked them as "community events".

Now the down side of this is when Dragons and Harrowstorms dropped, they are so hard that pretty much they are beyond doing (and you die rather fast - or maybe it's just me) unless you are running with a group, or there is a zone-related event on, so the pendulum (or it seems to me, anyway) has swung too far the other way.

LonePirate wrote: »

in the spring of 2014. Vet zones (the VR 1-10 zones) were the precursors, not an expansion, to One Tamriel. Prior to the content nerf in July of 2014, the best gear in the game dropped from these high end zones and people still refused to play them.

I do remember that.

Problem is, that I ALSO remember that my bestie and I were very much into exploring the world, doing every side and guild and main storyline quest (back when you couldn't access them but every 5 levels) and we very quickly out-leveled the areas - by the time we were done with the "Vet 1" areas we were about Vet 3-4, and things were way too easy. Even now, the content with "One Tamriel" is more balanced then it was (for us) back then.

Cireous wrote: »

Allow giants to punt us into the atmosphere

Oh I remember when Destructive Clench could send an enemy flying - I really do miss that!!

Vhozek wrote: »

...don't you agree everything being the same level as you is stale and boring?

SilverBride wrote: »

Not in the least. I find it a great stress reliever to aggro a mob and beat the heck out of them.

When I want a challenge I go after World Bosses and Dragons and Harrowstorms, or solo a dungeon. But I do not want a challenge in every single thing I do.

^^^ quoted for truth!!

I work in a difficult field with a LOT of stress and a LOT of "grey areas"; and it's wonderful to be able to tell people that when I get off work I play an MMORPG where there is no grey area, just me as a good guy and there are bad guys and I kill them and that's it.

Yes, there are moral issues in parts of the quests - which can be fun, but does not detract from my main point. I LIKE to blow off steam and sometimes I LIKE that not everything kills me instantly.

Araxyte wrote: »

We're not asking for 5 minute skeever fights, we're asking that it doesn't die in 1 shot to a light attack and it would be optional.

I have no characters that can kill a skeever with one shot light attack. NONE. You must be amazingly BiS to do that.

SilverBride wrote: »

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it. - Rich Lambert

Wow. Well that's pretty clear.

KalyanLazair wrote: »

Maybe there could be a "Sweaty Palms" skill line that Uncle Sheogorath grants us that gives certain kiss/curse passives when you enable it. For example:

- Halve your damage, but give more XP
- Disable your CP, but give you more gold
- Halve your mitigation, but increase your treasure chest rewards
- Halve your health, but increase your chance of getting a rare lead drop

IF the actual issue is that "the experience of playing overland" is less fun, then it is inappropriate to add rewards (other than increased XP).

There are already plenty of places in game where folks can go to do "very hard content" and get nifty rewards (Maelstrom Arena I'm looking at you), so IF the ACTUAL issue is overland difficulty and nothing else - THEN the solution is not to add rewards - they are already in the game.

If you are underwhelmed by overland and don't like it - you are skilled enough in playing the game that you already optimize your play - there is no need to "get more" from zones as you already have them optimized (seeing nodes from a distance; "chest-o-vision" from the psijic skill line and so on).

Lysette

.From my experience with MMOs, people often do not do stuff for the fun aspect, but judge it by the gain per hour aspect. And this might just not change with higher difficulty and rewards staying the same. This gain per hour mentality lets them avoid this new more difficult content - and I guess that is what Rich Lambert was about with his statement, that a big part of the game isn't played, if it is difficult. And I think as well, that is why those wanting more challenge always request as well better rewards - their mentality doesn't allow them to just go for the fun of having more difficult content without better rewards.

If playing without gear is a challenge depends on how the rest is taken into account - one cannot use weapon skills with an empty hand, but one can still use weapon-like skills, which do not require to have anything in your hands. There are as well powerful damage shields, which can be used absolutely naked and barehanded. So even without gear and actual weapons one isn't defenseless or a wet noodle - this reminds me, I wanted to test if poison can be applied to the empty hand.

Not even lower stats from not using gear or weapons make it impossible to survive, one can still up them with alchemy or food quite a lot and even sustain is not really a problem with the right potions or beverages. The game would just be challenging, if no skills would be used at all and being absolutely naked - but as soon as skills come into play and abilities are used, one could do fairly well without weapons and gear in overland content.

And good food like "bewitched sugar skulls" is available at prices, which are much lower than the ingredients (because people don't seem to calculate before they set a price for it) - I just bought 140 of them for about 100k - that is good to go for 280 hours - if I would just do antiquities in those 280 hours, this would easily gain me 5-6 million gold - so there is no reason to not use high quality food. With no gear and no weapon bewitched sugar skulls are a must have, because it replaces the health regain you cannot have if not wearing rings whilst still providing the stats boost as well.

You see, even health regain without gear is not really a problem - take "the steed" and consume bewitched sugar skulls and you are good to go. And focusing on antiquities from the very start provides all the money you need for your endeavors.

ShalidorsHeir

I dont think this game is in a healthy state, even for casual gamers. Things are so damn easy that nobody ever needs to get in touch with the depths of this game, the game mechanics and theorycrafting, all the wonderful stuff ESO has to provide. Besides that long term players like myself (playing since beta) simply feel excluded from questing and overland content because there is no joy at all!

One should not think about "changing" the overland content but instead "extending" it.

And it is so easy to fulfill all the promises made with the appraoch of having a normal and a vateran instance. While Quest bosses and delve bosses + mobs should be scaling a higher as default already. Same goes for public dungeons - they are little less than grind spots for new chars / companions as far as i was concerned with them.

The main reason for extending overland like this should be at least the joy the overland content can provide - so far its lacking immersion ... heavily! One part of that is that no boss, no fight no place overwhelmed with opponents is anyhow remarkable without a good fight. Usualy bosses die before they started one of their mechanics - yes!, even if i am naked and removed my CP, cuz i can literally beat 200K health in 5 secs with a broom these days. Thats a one time joke, maybe, but definitely no content at all.

Many player that once were on my friends list (most of them PvPers) simply left the game. Because one content type alone wont do the job to satisfy a players needs. If there is nothing you can enjoy anymore when you've got some free time from the daily schedule players tend to look elsweyr - usualy other games and be done with ESO. Especially since there is no dedicated solo content with the execption of 2 solo arenas which anyone gets rid of after 20 runs latest...

ZOS puts so much effort into overland and questing content but they dont provide it to a big part of the community after all - for the reasons i just called. I dont blame ZOS for their decisions they once made since the veteran & adventure zones but im 100% sure, they misunderstood the reason for why we didnt want to play it like that and simply made the wrong move for overland in general. Which makes me happy that feedback thread is finally up and people can get a serious voice on that once more.

To sum it up:
The concept for normal and veteran instances is already there and can simply be reused for overland as well. There wont be a splitt of the community or some other things most people tend to fear - it simply wont happen like this - it never has been. Its optional after all and only for the sake to bring players back to overland --> so if anything - ESO would gain enough players to overland content to fill all instances. To satisfy a way more people than just before (since it is AGAIN OPTIONAL!) for a minimum of effort.

ajkb78

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

hmm i thought the game *kicks* all companions once the group is FULL in dungeons/trials , no? Or were you talking about a non-queue'd version entering manually on-foot?

I was under the impression if you went into a dungeon with 4 people the companions were kicked period, actually? Didn't realize you could have 6 do it, seems it would really trivialize it.

He just said dungeon, not group dungeon. You could happily go through a public dungeon grouped as 4 players and 2 companions. Only time I've seen a companion in a group dungeon is when a player left the group, a companion can come out in that case and will stay out even after a replacement player joins the group, but it will disappear when the 4th player travels into the instance.

Elsonso

newtinmpls wrote: »

I've played since about 2 months post PC drop, and one thing I remember - and loved - was how hard dolmens used to be. It used to be basically impossible to solo them, and I can't even count how many times folks would call for help in zone - and the best of them (the most skilled players) would be saying something like "got X dolmen but can't finish the last boss".

I liked them as "community events".

I would not be upset if they made the dark anchors more difficult and harder to solo. The game has changed a lot since they were introduced, and I don't think they have kept up.

Sadly, this would likely result in many dark anchors sitting there unclosed. The dark anchor rewards are not uniformly popular across all zones. But... if they dropped Transmutation Geodes it might help.

newtinmpls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

So, you know like I said, we went down that route. We built the game with difficulty in mind and 2/3rds of the game was never played by players so we changed it. - Rich Lambert

Wow. Well that's pretty clear.

Apparently, not as clear as it might seem. I mean, maybe it is for Rich, who seems to say this as a form of "been there, done that, not worth going back", but...

newtinmpls

Lysette wrote: »

.From my experience with MMOs, people often do not do stuff for the fun aspect, but judge it by the gain per hour aspect.

Interesting. I do not see this among the sub-group that is heavy RPG and came here for "Skyrim/Morrowind/Oblivion with Friends" but it's definitely a biased sample

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

I'd like to point this as my reasoning for not doing dragons/harrowstorms as a hardcore 'vet instance' wisher. I turn up the harrowstorm, Im alone or with one other. I start doing it, Im enjoying how rough it is, I feel a threat....and then 30 other people show up all in one conga line and RUIN the experience for us (not exaggerating, one night i tried it constantly and i was constantly interrupted by large amounts of people showing up. No event, No reason for the zone to be popping like it clearly was). And No, I do not play in US prime time. I play Oceanic. When everyone in the US is asleep. You struggle to see one person typing in zone.

Wow....sounds frustrating and I admit to a tiny bit "where the heck were you when I was dying trying Harrowstorms and nobody came"

ajkb78 wrote: »

He just said dungeon, not group dungeon. You could happily go through a public dungeon grouped as 4 players and 2 companions. Only time I've seen a companion in a group dungeon is when a player left the group, a companion can come out in that case and will stay out even after a replacement player joins the group, but it will disappear when the 4th player travels into the instance.

OTOH I've done plenty of dungeons as a 4- man party, myself and one other port into them each with a companion and run them.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I dont think this game is in a healthy state, even for casual gamers. Things are so damn easy that nobody ever needs to get in touch with the depths of this game, the game mechanics and theorycrafting, all the wonderful stuff ESO has to provide. Besides that long term players like myself (playing since beta) simply feel excluded from questing and overland content because there is no joy at all!

I am a "long term player" I have been here since about 2 months post PC release. I remember Vet levels, I remember when certain Atronach's dropped named weapons at Dolmens.

I (and other's who share my fame style) nod and wave at the things you like and we continue to do the things we like.

I have no desire to theorycraft, to do trials (group or single) or to PvP (shudder).

I would be happy if there was a bigger chunk of game that appealed to you - and seems like when IC first came out, that was it. Heck back in the day when you respawned in Arena, I occasionally went there to play, get killed, and respawn, and jump down.

But they nerfed it to heck - everyone used to run from the sweepers and the banner-men. Now they are solo-able. That was the ONE place where I thought "Yes, everything SHOULD be insanely hard" and that made it (even for me, a laid back player) a special place.

The last "big give" to PvPers was (I think? If I get it wrong someone will correct me) when Vvardenfell/Battlegrounds dropped and this coincided with the increased monitization.

My presumption is and has been that ZoS "caters" to the players with money - and I will NEVER have most of the spendy stuff in the crown store - because I can't spend that much. But there are plenty who do, and that it what (from my perspective) seems to drive the choices the dev's are told to make (carefully phrased here).

As of yet, I have heard many many "casuals" say things like "ZoS I want X - let me throw money at you" and those things sometimes happen. What I have not seen EVER (not saying it doesn't happen - but I have not seen it) is PvP'ers or "endgame players" saying things like "Give me X and let me throw money at you".

EDIT: X in this case being a thing that is specifically useful in PvP

SilverBride

newtinmpls wrote: »

As of yet, I have heard many many "casuals" say things like "ZoS I want X - let me throw money at you" and those things sometimes happen. What I have not seen EVER (not saying it doesn't happen - but I have not seen it) is PvP'ers or "endgame players" saying things like "Give me X and let me throw money at you".

Spending money at the Cown Store is not a casual player thing. Most of the things players seem to want from the Crown Store are mounts, pets, bankers and merchants and a lot of cosmetic items like skins and emotes and personalities. These seem to be sought after just as much by end game players who like to do and have everything.

Elsonso

newtinmpls wrote: »

As of yet, I have heard many many "casuals" say things like "ZoS I want X - let me throw money at you" and those things sometimes happen. What I have not seen EVER (not saying it doesn't happen - but I have not seen it) is PvP'ers or "endgame players" saying things like "Give me X and let me throw money at you".

Given that the circle containing all the "casual" players intersects with the circles containing all the "PVP" and all the "endgame players", you can be assured that it has. This is especially true given there are several different circles labeled as "casual", and they don't completely overlap.

newtinmpls

SilverBride wrote: »

Spending money at the Cown Store is not a casual player thing.

I think the point I was attempting to make is being missed.

Players who like RPG, housing, individualizing characters - these players ASK for those things AND say "I will pay you monies if you give me more of this thing"

What I do NOT see is PvP or "endgame (self defined)" players asking for things specific to their playstyles AND saying "I will pay you monies if you do this thing"

I have seen request (AND offers of money) for:
costumes
mounts
hairstyles
hair colors
pets
furnishings
housing
more housing
even yet more housing

I have NOT seen requests (AND offers of money) for:
Personal or guild hall "battlegrounds" setups
An INDIVIDUAL toggle to nerf a character (because knowing ZoS it would totally be per character)

not sure what else could go in there but happy if anyone starts a list.

edited for attempted clarity

ShalidorsHeir

I don't get your point at all. People buy stuff for creative content (housing / outfitting) and for cosmetics in ESO. And i would bet i spent a way more money in this game than most of those just "casually" gaming... without saying that i want something for that. As a matter of fact i only play the game and pay money for it when i feel comfortable.
After all it does impact the decision for overland content in only one way: more people being satisfied with content results in more people spending money. Also, we would not need to think of PvPers or PvEers as separate parts if all content is more attractive to everyone and would motivate players to progress for that content (in their own speed which they feel comfortable with). Not to mention that currently there is a big gap in overland and andthing else like dungeons, arenas, trials etc. So people are not prepared for that or they find it boring and do not give [Snip] about overland-> bringing in a bigger gap between certain player types which should be addressed.

[Edited for profanity bypass]

Lysette

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I don't get your point at all. People buy stuff for creative content (housing / outfitting) and for cosmetics in ESO. And i would bet i spent a way more money in this game than most of those just "casually" gaming... without saying that i want something for that. As a matter of fact i only play the game and pay money for it when i feel comfortable.
After all it does impact the decision for overland content in only one way: more people being satisfied with content results in more people spending money. Also, we would not need to think of PvPers or PvEers as separate parts if all content is more attractive to everyone and would motivate players to progress for that content (in their own speed which they feel comfortable with). Not to mention that currently there is a big gap in overland and andthing else like dungeons, arenas, trials etc. So people are not prepared for that or they find it boring and do not give [Snip] about overland-> bringing in a bigger gap between certain player types which should be addressed.

in my mind the general opinion about it is more like - overland is just for levelling up to get competitive - and if most of the pvp crowd are thinking like that, ZOS won't put in any effort to change anything from how it currently is - because it wouldn't be worth the effort. I share this opinion, because I have seen it in many games, that pve content is for many pvp guys just a means to getting competitive and they rush through the content as fast as possible and just for as long as necessary to get competitive - and then they are off to pvp never to be seen again in the "casual" areas of the game.

As far as this gap you mentioned is concerned, this gap will stay - simply because casual don't have all day several times a week to play the game intensively enough to get to this content - some might try, but this is just not the content for the regular casual player. Overland is their game - what comes after it is optional - who hasn't the time to get really good, will not want to do that kind of content, because they don't have the time for it and the time they have shouldn't be filled with mindless grind to get better - but for something more enjoyable. So this gap will always be there - both are not really compatible either, because they want different things and therefore request as well different things from ZOS - any time spend on what the other group wants, is seen as a waste of time - they are not compatible.

Regular casuals buy stuff from the crown store to save time, they don't have otherwise - they try to fill their available time with something enjoyable, and rather buy things than to grind for them - ZOS knows that quite well, that is why there is a lot of stuff on the crown store, which is for this player group - because they are willing to pay for it, it enhances their limited playtime and frees them from having to grind for stuff - that is why things like buying sky shards for other characters is in the crown store for example - why would someone who has the time buy that in the crown store - but those who haven't will gladly do that - like me, I bought that for some of my characters for example.

[Edited quote]

newtinmpls

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I don't get your point at all.

When people say "I want the game to be different in a specific way AND I will pay for that change" then that change is more likely to happen.

Housing "was never going to happen" for YEARS (and I know, as I was one of the ones clamoring for it).

Many many many people said "AND we will pay for it" and it showed up. With a monetization component.
Same with furnishings
Same with fancy mounts

What I am saying is that IF the people who are currently clamoring for a change in overland content ADDED "and I'll pay for a toggle" I suspect it would be more likely to happen.

Asking for something "because you should give it to me to make my experience better" seems less likely to produce the desired results.

.
edited in an attempt to increase clarity

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I don't feel strong one shorting mobs, it's like beating a person who's unable to defend themselves. Some of us find fun and feeling that we're somewhat strong in overcoming challenges thrown at us so harder the content we beat - the more fun and satisfaction we're getting from the session. To each their own, so denying people new modes isn't the path of inclusion.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I was just making the point that not all casual players will become more hardcore just because their characters have gotten more powerful.

Obviously so but

newtinmpls wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Spending money at the Cown Store is not a casual player thing.

I think the point I was attempting to make is being missed.

Players who like RPG, housing, individualizing characters - these players ASK for those things AND say "I will pay you monies if you give me more of this thing"

What I do NOT see is PvP or "endgame (self defined)" players asking for things specific to their playstyles AND saying "I will pay you monies if you do this thing"

I have seen request (AND offers of money) for:
costumes
mounts
hairstyles
hair colors
pets
furnishings
housing
more housing
even yet more housing

I have NOT seen requests (AND offers of money) for:
Personal or guild hall "battlegrounds" setups
An INDIVIDUAL toggle to nerf a character (because knowing ZoS it would totally be per character)

not sure what else could go in there but happy if anyone starts a list.

Well I'm still unsure why first category is polarised with the second one, those are the same exact people buying cosmetics and housing stuff. First category of goods exists and in demand while second one isn't, partially because no one asks for that. I can't imagine your " individual toggle nerf" example being in any demand and don't see any reasoning for it to exist there.

Anyway trying to separate buyers in camps would be a failure as people dedicating a lot of their time are mostly into everything cosmetic no matter if they're primarily pvp, pve or picking flowers. Personally I see the most "luxurious" players (apex mounts, arms packs, more expensive motif's etc.) in pvp mostly, second place would be golden vendor days but that's not "just housing" crowd as you would clearly see looking up people's titles there, same pvp and pve'ers there. Basically the more people spending their time in Tamriel the
ore they're probably buying. That's obviously still lower income for zenimax than hundreds of thousands players who logs once every update and buying respec scrolls and vamp bites because they're unaware and not caring enough.

Lysette

Well, as far as vamp bites and vampire skill line goes - one could ask for that on the zone chat - but then again, what would it cost - most likely gold, gold which someone not having a huge amount of time to play most likely doesn't have - whereas it is pretty easy to just throw a little rl money on it and get it from the crown store - they are doing that not because they are unaware, but because it is convenient, one doesn't have to ask others for it and doesn't need a lot of gold for it as well - same with housing - why do I buy houses from the crown store, which I could as well acquire with gold?- Simply because getting gold is an effort, whereas getting this house with crowns is just convenient - and I don't have to match requirements, I just get it instantly. That is why this stuff sells on the crown store - convenience is something people with less time to play are willing to pay for, because it is enhancing their game experience - and why wouldn't they just buy it, if it is available, they have the money, because they are not playing all day long.

Like yesterday, I felt like owning a new house - so I got me 6500 crowns from the store (well, part of it are subscription crowns) - and checked out a few which I didn't have yet - Solitude or Leyawiin for example, solitude is nice from the outside, but inside are too many pillars for good - Leyawiin is in a nice location but it feels like living in an apartment house - so what to do now?- Then I saw the enchanted snow globe house limited time offer - nice idea, a house in a snow globe, where is it, ah Eastmark, I don't have a house there yet, so I had a look, nice cosy home - let's see how it looks furnitured, hm, looks ok and the price for that furniture is not too high as well - saves me time for gathering materials. I won't use all of that, because I want different furniture in it, but for now I took it furnitured - so I got me a new house yesterday - with crowns. Do I need that house, no, certainly not, I have enough others and will most likely be more there than in the new one - but I felt like getting a new house and I got one - easy peasy with crowns.

SilverBride

Lysette wrote: »

As far as this gap you mentioned is concerned, this gap will stay - simply because casual don't have all day several times a week to play the game intensively enough to get to this content - some might try, but this is just not the content for the regular casual player.

Casual doesn't mean someone doesn't play a lot. It has to do with what they spend their time doing when they are playing. I play every day but I consider myself casual because I don't do end game content. On the other hand I've known hard core players who only log on a couple of times a week for their trial groups.

I have plenty of time to get to end game content. I just don't want to.

Lysette wrote: »

Regular casuals buy stuff from the crown store to save time, they don't have otherwise - they try to fill their available time with something enjoyable, and rather buy things than to grind for them - ZOS knows that quite well, that is why there is a lot of stuff on the crown store, which is for this player group - because they are willing to pay for it, it enhances their limited playtime and frees them from having to grind for stuff - that is why things like buying sky shards for other characters is in the crown store for example - why would someone who has the time buy that in the crown store - but those who haven't will gladly do that - like me, I bought that for some of my characters for example.

This is also not true in my case. I have never purchased skyshards etc., because there is no deadline I have to meet. I want to enjoy playing the game myself, not pay to skip over content.

Casdha

Now I know why they chose the Ouroboros as the symbol for this game.

This game started out with 3 factions to start from, each with a Silver and a Gold level (other faction play throughs as VR levels). Each new zone had an increased difficulty and you had folks grinding trash mobs just to make level cap by the time they hit their last zone in their home faction. Once you hit Silver and Gold you had to put about 10 times as much work in to gain a level. If you tried to play a zone too far ahead of your level you got your tail handed to ya. If you tried to play a zone that you were to far ahead of things fell over like dominoes and you got no credit for your efforts. A VR level character could go back and have a solo cake walk through Group Dungeons in their starting faction zones (at least the ones available at the time). Also, Craglorn overland was tuned for max level characters to at least run in pairs and if you could solo a bunch of bees you were doing good, and if you could solo a pack of Welwa (when the last one hulked out) then you were real good.

Why is it that none of this stuff exist now??????? Folks asked for it.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

As far as this gap you mentioned is concerned, this gap will stay - simply because casual don't have all day several times a week to play the game intensively enough to get to this content - some might try, but this is just not the content for the regular casual player.

Casual doesn't mean someone doesn't play a lot. It has to do with what they spend their time doing when they are playing. I play every day but I consider myself casual because I don't do end game content. On the other hand I've known hard core players who only log on a couple of times a week for their trial groups.

I have plenty of time to get to end game content. I just don't want to.

Lysette wrote: »

Regular casuals buy stuff from the crown store to save time, they don't have otherwise - they try to fill their available time with something enjoyable, and rather buy things than to grind for them - ZOS knows that quite well, that is why there is a lot of stuff on the crown store, which is for this player group - because they are willing to pay for it, it enhances their limited playtime and frees them from having to grind for stuff - that is why things like buying sky shards for other characters is in the crown store for example - why would someone who has the time buy that in the crown store - but those who haven't will gladly do that - like me, I bought that for some of my characters for example.

This is also not true in my case. I have never purchased skyshards etc., because there is no deadline I have to meet. I want to enjoy playing the game myself, not pay to skip over content.

Well the definition of "casual" in the context of gaming is indifferent - the urban dictionary gives your idea of it the score, the definition of casual gaming in the industry gives it to me - as in less time intensive gaming - like 15 hours per week. For the gaming industry we both are addicted gamers - and not casuals - but I use for myself your definition of the word (who wants to admit addiction?)

So I was using the latter - even I consider myself as well to be a casual gamer in your meaning of the word with play time in the addict range, but distributed among a couple of games and MMOs. Eventually the meaning of it in the industry is commercially more important, when designing a product, and the one from the urban dictionary (which is basically yours) is more an interpretation from the gamer side of things.

But I would consider me a raisin picking gamer - and this explains my habit to skip over content I don't like, to outright ignore it and if given the opportunity to just get over with by throwing some money at it, I might just do it. Like some houses have requirements, which I do not want to ever fulfill - so I will just buy them with crowns and skip those requirements.

In my case, I'm addicted to gaming (mostly open world and survival games), but seen from any of these games I would be considered casual, because each game gets just a slice of my available time and my days of playing competitive are over - well, I never saw this as a competition, because whenever I was involved in pvp, I used Sun Tzu's advice - never start a fight you haven't won already - as in when I decided to fight it will be quick and it will end victorious for me - I didn't give the opponents a chance, I killed them outright.

newtinmpls

colossalvoids wrote: »

trying to separate buyers in camps would be a failure

I agree.

I'm trying to separate things that have been asked for in forums AND that the 'ask' has specifically included "do this and yes I want to pay you for it" or sometimes literally "ZoS let me give you money for [insert the thing]"

And things that have been asked for in forums where there is NO specific offerings of monies.

As this discussion is about overland experience AND several folks have mentioned a toggle, my question is this:

Would you pay for it?

Considering how ZoS has marketed the outfit system (per character), armory slots (per character) and skyshards (per character) I am guessing that IF they were to do something like that it would likely be per character.

In the past, offering money to ZoS when asking for things in game has a pretty decent track record.

So again. IF you want an overland difficulty toggle - would you pay for it?

Lysette

Casdha wrote: »

Now I know why they chose the Ouroboros as the symbol for this game.

This game started out with 3 factions to start from, each with a Silver and a Gold level (other faction play throughs as VR levels). Each new zone had an increased difficulty and you had folks grinding trash mobs just to make level cap by the time they hit their last zone in their home faction. Once you hit Silver and Gold you had to put about 10 times as much work in to gain a level. If you tried to play a zone too far ahead of your level you got your tail handed to ya. If you tried to play a zone that you were to far ahead of things fell over like dominoes and you got no credit for your efforts. A VR level character could go back and have a solo cake walk through Group Dungeons in their starting faction zones (at least the ones available at the time). Also, Craglorn overland was tuned for max level characters to at least run in pairs and if you could solo a bunch of bees you were doing good, and if you could solo a pack of Welwa (when the last one hulked out) then you were real good.

Why is it that none of this stuff exist now??????? Folks asked for it.

Because that concept was really bad - you could outlevel a zone easily and then the whole thing falls apart and is no fun anymore - and gated gaming is a matter of the past, nowadays the raisin picker generation is on the rise, and we want the raisins now without having to eat the whole cake - and are willing to pay for not having to eat the whole cake - that is why.

The industry has changed, creating games is a highly expensive endeavor, which isn't paid for with just the sale price - that is often just covering the costs within the first few weeks - but then the profit has to be made as well and that is why we have live services and cash shops and what not - but if we have to pay for extra stuff or a subscription, it is clear that we are getting more demanding as well - it is not as if there would not be other games around which might be more generous - so on one side we have to pay more now, but on the other side we can expect a whole lot more as well - and so far ZOS has pretty much adapted to the role of a live service - and does it well enough.

I personally see subscription as a fair offer - especially with those crowns, which allows me to get something extra for the subscription as well - ok, sometimes I buy a few crowns more in addition to it, but mainly I am using subscription crowns - and contribute to the profit, of course, but ZOS needs to live as well, their staff costs money, those doing the marvelous music and sound designs need to be paid for as well, then the artistic work, the technicians and operators who run the whole thing - they cost permanently money and this has to be earned by selling subscription and crown store stuff and the yearly chapter now as well (the latter because the other isn't earning enough I guess).

LashanW

newtinmpls wrote: »

I have NOT seen requests (AND offers of money) for:
Personal or guild hall "battlegrounds" setups
An INDIVIDUAL toggle to nerf a character (because knowing ZoS it would totally be per character)

What is most needed for PvP is performance improvements for Cyrodiil and fixes for age old but still game breaking bugs. Would PvPers be willing to spend money when such basic things are not provided?

As an endgame player, no. I would not pay for a debuff toggle. It's not a good solution. If they released a vet instance for overland zones, then yes. I'd definitely consider paying.

I got no issues with spending money on games if I feel like I'm getting my money's worth and the developers aren't ignoring players like me. Been playing Genshin Impact for about a half year and I must've spent more than twice the money I've spent on ESO in 4+ years.

newtinmpls

newtinmpls wrote: »

I have NOT seen requests (AND offers of money) for:
Personal or guild hall "battlegrounds" setups
An INDIVIDUAL toggle to nerf a character (because knowing ZoS it would totally be per character)

LashanW wrote: »

What is most needed for PvP is performance improvements for Cyrodiil and fixes for age old but still game breaking bugs.

Which is nice, and even true, but completely ignores the point.

LashanW wrote: »

As an endgame player, no. I would not pay for a debuff toggle.
<small snip>
If they released a vet instance for overland zones, then yes. I'd definitely consider paying.

So you would pay for a "Vet" toggle? What would that include and how would you know you were getting it?

What I am getting at is:
Define what you want in terms that could be "applied" per character because that's what ZoS seems to be willing to do for monies.