Overland Content Feedback Thread
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SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Blackwood's public dungeons are more difficult. I can easily solo every public dungeon in the game, but had to get help for a couple of the bosses in these.
Craglorn is an adventure zone... toned down a lot from what it originally was but it is still more difficult than that other zones. If all of overland's public dungeons were tuned even to its current difficulty it would stop a lot of players from being able to enjoy them.PCNA1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would.
An optional seperate instance wouldn't ruin it for you. According to your repeated dev statement "a huge amount" of people would remain in normal instances. So your newbies have enough people around if they should ever need help.
Does the existance of veteran dungeons and trials impact you negatively? If so, how?
And a word about the logic that a certain difficulty drives people off - you are right. Normal overland certainly drives me off from questing. I skipped so many content because it doesn't fit me. See, this goes both ways.- Separation of the playerbase
- If enough players utilized veteran overland it would disrupt the balance of new to experienced players in the zone... which I honestly don't think will happen because...
- It's a minority who want more difficult overland, and would take a lot of work to set up, according to Rich
- It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase
- If increased rewards in veteran overland those who are not and may never be powerful enough are left out
PCNA2 -
Ronin37✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Blackwood's public dungeons are more difficult. I can easily solo every public dungeon in the game, but had to get help for a couple of the bosses in these.
Craglorn is an adventure zone... toned down a lot from what it originally was but it is still more difficult than that other zones. If all of overland's public dungeons were tuned even to its current difficulty it would stop a lot of players from being able to enjoy them.
You do realize the public dungeons are supposed to be tune to four man groups. That's not me creating wishful thinking. It's in the tool tip. Those dungeons should give a single player serious trouble. They fail at that and that's is content that is supposed to offer greater challenge. The rest of overland is worst than that. Last I checked this game is not Wizard101.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You do realize the public dungeons are supposed to be tune to four man groups. That's not me creating wishful thinking. It's in the tool tip. Those dungeons should give a single player serious trouble. They fail at that and that's is content that is supposed to offer greater challenge. The rest of overland is worst than that. Last I checked this game is not Wizard101.
These do still require groups for lower level and less experienced players. But those who have progressed their characters can easily solo them.
This is what happens in games over the years as players become increasingly stronger. It does not mean that this content should be made more difficult though. The content has stayed the same... it's the player that has changed, so it's the player that should be looked at for a solution.PCNA0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »You do realize the public dungeons are supposed to be tune to four man groups. That's not me creating wishful thinking. It's in the tool tip. Those dungeons should give a single player serious trouble. They fail at that and that's is content that is supposed to offer greater challenge. The rest of overland is worst than that. Last I checked this game is not Wizard101.
These do still require groups for lower level and less experienced players. But those who have progressed their characters can easily solo them.
This is what happens in games over the years as players become increasingly stronger. It does not mean that this content should be made more difficult though. The content has stayed the same... it's the player that has changed, so it's the player that should be looked at for a solution.
I have played MMOs since Meridian 59, every MMO worked by putting out expansions with relatively more difficult content. This game does not work that way and the world events do not count because those things are not even consistent. And your right the content in ESO, expansion after expansion, has basically stayed the same. A visual novel with new chapters. And from what you have written uber casuals should be looked at for solutions because you are surely not talking about any other type of player.5 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »These do still require groups for lower level and less experienced players. But those who have progressed their characters can easily solo them.
This is what happens in games over the years as players become increasingly stronger. It does not mean that this content should be made more difficult though. The content has stayed the same... it's the player that has changed, so it's the player that should be looked at for a solution.
I have played MMOs since Meridian 59, every MMO worked by putting out expansions with relatively more difficult content. This game does not work that way and the world events do not count because those things are not even consistent. And your right the content in ESO, expansion after expansion, has basically stayed the same. A visual novel with new chapters. And from what you have written uber casuals should be looked at for solutions because you are surely not talking about any other type of player.
I made no reference to "uber casuals". I stated that these public dungeons are still difficult for low level and new players. It has nothing to do with their preferred playstyle, but rather what content they are able to succeed in at this stage of their character's development.
There are always going to be low level and new players as long as the game continues to be successful, which right now it absolutely is. Therefor overland needs to be accessible to them.
It is a small percentage of the players who have progressed their characters and become more powerful who are unhappy with overland as it is. Any solution should address those who are dissatisfied. Why would a solution lie with those who don't see it as a problem, and are happy with things as they are?Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2021 10:56PMPCNA0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »These do still require groups for lower level and less experienced players. But those who have progressed their characters can easily solo them.
This is what happens in games over the years as players become increasingly stronger. It does not mean that this content should be made more difficult though. The content has stayed the same... it's the player that has changed, so it's the player that should be looked at for a solution.
I have played MMOs since Meridian 59, every MMO worked by putting out expansions with relatively more difficult content. This game does not work that way and the world events do not count because those things are not even consistent. And your right the content in ESO, expansion after expansion, has basically stayed the same. A visual novel with new chapters. And from what you have written uber casuals should be looked at for solutions because you are surely not talking about any other type of player.
I made no reference to "uber casuals". I stated that these public dungeons are still difficult for low level and new players. It has nothing to do with their preferred playstyle, but rather what content they are able to succeed in at this stage of their character's development.
There are always going to be low level and new players as long as the game continues to be successful, which right now it absolutely is. Therefor overland needs to be accessible to them.
It is a small percentage of the players who have progressed their characters and become more powerful who are unhappy with overland as it is. Any solution should address those who are dissatisfied. Why would a solution lie with those who don't see it as a problem, and are happy with things as they are?
What's your solution?0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »I made no reference to "uber casuals". I stated that these public dungeons are still difficult for low level and new players. It has nothing to do with their preferred playstyle, but rather what content they are able to succeed in at this stage of their character's development.
There are always going to be low level and new players as long as the game continues to be successful, which right now it absolutely is. Therefor overland needs to be accessible to them.
It is a small percentage of the players who have progressed their characters and become more powerful who are unhappy with overland as it is. Any solution should address those who are dissatisfied. Why would a solution lie with those who don't see it as a problem, and are happy with things as they are?
What's your solution?
An optional debuff and optional challenge banners for story bosses, and maybe even world bosses and public dungeon bosses. This would give more difficult fights for those who want it.
I know some are against a debuff, but what difference does it make why the mobs are more difficult as long as the difficulty is achieved?PCNA0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a vet overland instance. I'm not sure if the developers have any interest in doing that, but it makes a lot more sense to me than things like debuffs. Though for instanced quest bosses, obviously a "challenge" scroll or such might be something to consider.
Also, I still don't see why a toggle for a battlespirit sort of thing couldn't be done.
Caveat: I'm an "uber casual" solo player, as 750ms ping plus 74 year old reflexes makes twitch combat and group stuff not viable for me.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instancedEdited by spartaxoxo on December 30, 2021 11:26PM0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »I made no reference to "uber casuals". I stated that these public dungeons are still difficult for low level and new players. It has nothing to do with their preferred playstyle, but rather what content they are able to succeed in at this stage of their character's development.
There are always going to be low level and new players as long as the game continues to be successful, which right now it absolutely is. Therefor overland needs to be accessible to them.
It is a small percentage of the players who have progressed their characters and become more powerful who are unhappy with overland as it is. Any solution should address those who are dissatisfied. Why would a solution lie with those who don't see it as a problem, and are happy with things as they are?
What's your solution?
An optional debuff and optional challenge banners for story bosses, and maybe even world bosses and public dungeon bosses. This would give more difficult fights for those who want it.
I know some are against a debuff, but what difference does it make why the mobs are more difficult as long as the difficulty is achieved?
Personally not liking the debuff. Challenge mechanism for entire public dungeon would be good and def for story bosses.2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »An optional debuff and optional challenge banners for story bosses, and maybe even world bosses and public dungeon bosses. This would give more difficult fights for those who want it.
I know some are against a debuff, but what difference does it make why the mobs are more difficult as long as the difficulty is achieved?
Personally not liking the debuff. Challenge mechanism for entire public dungeon would be good and def for story bosses.
Personally I love feeling stronger and enjoy overland just as it is, but for the sake of those who are truly looking for more of a challenge in questing and story bosses I fully support some sort of solution. But this will require a compromise, and compromise usually means neither side gets everything it wants, so finding one that most could agree with is a good start.
Edited for clarity.Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2021 11:53PMPCNA0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
Edited by spartaxoxo on December 31, 2021 12:08AM0 -
Ronin37✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
Good lord ZOS needs to get this data straight.0 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »From the now locked thread, edited a bit for clarity.
To those wanting harder overland ask yourself this. Can you do overland even if it is to easy for you?
If your answer is yes, then good for you as you can complete the content albeit easily.
Remember though that some of us older and less fully abled cannot competently do trials, most (all?) DLC dungeons, arenas etc, even at the current difficulty.
So basically what you are saying to players like myself that you want to remove all the fun I have in game so as to make it more of a challenge for you to do. As I have said in the past I quit games I can no longer play.
Tell me why I would pay for ESO+ or even bother playing ESO anymore if this were to happen?
Nobody"s saying overland should be universally harder with no option to play as is. We'll, more or less nobody anyway. Nobody wants to take away your fun. And given the sheer amount of overland content Im not even sure I would turn on an increased difficulty mode myself if I was grinding another Tamriel Hero. Even with one shot kills there is weeks' worth of gameplay - I know, because I've done every pve quest in the game.
But is overland immersion breaking? Yes. Is it too easy for any player with a self heal and even a half decent gear setup? Yes. There are a couple of bosses in Craglorn that feel challenging solo with a good setup (Shada and the arena boss at the Rahni-za school of warriors) and a handful of world bosses, but that's it. And if you play that content in a group as intended, then that melts too. I'd love an *option* to make it harder. It could easily be retrofitted into existing zones by making you take greatly increased damage from enemies and deal greatly reduced damage (doing it this way wouldn't affect anyone else in the zone's experience and would still mean you could comparatively optimise by wearing better sets). In conjunction with this it would be great to have an option in delves or story locations to turn on solo instancing, so if say you decide to do Ilessan Tower (or any location in a new chapter or story dlc in the period just after release) on vet mode you could also instance it for yourself (or your group) so that you'd actually see all the mobs and not just a trail of corpses as everyone and thrir granny charge through the delve keeping it perma-cleared.
But more fundamentally, I feel that it's ok for DLC content to be harder than base game content. We clearly already accept that a dlc dungeon should be harder than a base game dungeon for a given level of difficulty, so why should a dlc story zone not be tougher than a base game story zone? More interesting mob and quest boss mechanics, longer ttk on enemies so you can actually experience the mechanics and at least a hint of threat. So while I wouldn't necessarily turn on vet mode for content I've already done, I would almost certainly turn it on for playing through a new dlc zone for the first time.
When I started the game there were a couple of quest bosses I struggled with. The one in the ashlander cave, and Advisor Notion. That was as a wood elf magdk with no set gear, no self heal except health potions. So I thought maybe the game is balanced ok at least for rank newbies. But then I was levelling an alt and I only realised after several zones that I'd forgotten to allocate any CP and I'd still not found anything remotely challenging. CP doesn't make any significant difference to overland content feeling challenging, though maybe mobs die in 1 shot rather than 2. The difference is from experience, not standing in stupid etc. And the base game zones give *plenty of opportunity* for players to gain that experience before jumping into dlc zones. It seems like every new chapter or story zone there's massive encouragement for new players to jump straight in to the newest content, but that makes no sense from a storytelling perspective and gets in the way of a proper difficulty progression through base game to dlc. I didn't play at the time of the original Craglorn release but I would love to see another adventure zone like Craglorn was originally, and a vet option for Craglorn to scale it back to the original level of difficulty. By all means keep the easy mode for people who have no interest in the combat, but those players aren't your only customers.
I'd kind of also like to see changes to dungeons where there have been significant nerfs, like the vault protector in vet frostvault - it used to be a fantastic challenge, it's a sorry joke now. But why not stick a challenge banner in there and offer the original interesting mechanic as a hard mode option just for people who want to experience it?
I just can't see how it's problematic to offer it as an option, it's clearly something a significant part of the user base have been clamouring for for a long time, it's a good bet that other less vocal players would enjoy the option too and it seems pretty obvious to me at least that it could be implemented in a way that wouldn't preclude other players from simultaneously enjoying the content at its original easy level of difficulty, by making the difficulty change relate to player damage taken and damage done rather than buffing the actual mobs.
I don't even care about better rewards, nothing extra would be fine by me, or something token like extra gold or a small chance to improve the quality of drops. No perfected overland sets though please, my stickerbook OCD couldn't handle it!!5 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
Good lord ZOS needs to get this data straight.
Have you reported it as a bug?The Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Anyway, there is near universal agreement that something should be done to offer an optional difficulty to players looking for a harder experience. There is disagreement on what should be done, but not that something should be done. There are actually more players that want to force vet overland than there are people who don't want anything to change at all in this thread, that I have seen.
Options I have seen floated around
Overhaul all the old content into a vet/normal separate instance (controversial)
Offer debuffs to players in some fashion (controversial)
Add challenge banners to story bosses (mostly agreed upon)
Add new adventure standalone zones (largely undiscussed)
Add new content to existing zones meant to shake them up (largely undiscussed)Edited by spartaxoxo on December 31, 2021 12:43AM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
Good lord ZOS needs to get this data straight.
Have you reported it as a bug?
Just did, I never knew this was a thing until now.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 31, 2021 12:52AM1 -
Ronin37✭✭✭.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
Good lord ZOS needs to get this data straight.
Have you reported it as a bug?
Literally just found out about it so no.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.
Understanding is a 3 edged sword.
Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.
"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.
How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.
They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.
I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.
Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.
Perhaps not to you but the general playerbase it is the case that those are significantly harder than before.
And you have polled the general player base?
The general playerbase is doing like 5k-10k dps per the devs and that's who Overland is tuned for. I have assisted with those plenty and anyone who has done them and looked at the mechanics can see an objective difference in what they ask of the player.
Also where do you see public dungeons are for four people?
[image removed]
That's what I see. The assumption is you'll go in ungrouped and need like 1 other person to help you in there, who you'll find just running around since it's not privately instanced
This what is actually said in game about public dungeons. And you have to be asleep to do only 5k dps even as a low level.
[image removed]
That screenshot I posted is also from in-game. It's on the help page explaining public dungeons, I took the screenshot from my phone (console). It's weird that the tooltip don't match the help guide.
Anyway most of the playerbase us doing 5k-10k dps, that's why companions are so bad. They explained that way back when they released them. They didn't want them to replace players.
It's help > tutorials > adventuring > public dungeons for me
[images removed]
Good lord ZOS needs to get this data straight.
Have you reported it as a bug?
Literally just found out about it so no.
Slacker.
I will also report it next time I am in the game. (Edit: Done) Edited by Elsonso on December 31, 2021 1:15AMThe Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
Captain_OP✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Overhaul all the old content into a vet/normal separate instance (controversial)
Offer debuffs to players in some fashion (controversial)
Add challenge banners to story bosses (mostly agreed upon)
Add new adventure standalone zones (largely undiscussed)
Add new content to existing zones meant to shake them up (largely undiscussed)
I think you got there the main starting points for all the discussions.
Overall i would say:
Yes something should be done. Trying to reach higher difficulty should be rewarded somehow, because thats what game design is about. A loot change isnt needed in my opinon, but maybe some cosmetics or archivments as rewards. The thing they did with other vet content like perfected version could be also an option.
I really would like the seperation. I know some argued that it would be bad, but no. I am one shotting every thing in overland except worldbosses and especilly new players have a hard time to get a quest mob kill. I have seen threads on reddit where players ask to stop one shotting world bosses at events, because they wont get loot. Putting those players to their choosen challange, will make the game more enjoyable for everybody. Some said this will take much time to implement, but they forgot that vet content already existed and that the server already works on instances. Adding a join vet or normal instance would not be much of a problem and in cities you can make the zone mixed vet and normal by default, alternativ it could be good to make the zone chat the same in vet and normal. That way every player could ask for help. Obviously vet difficulty should only be available when a player reached level 50.spartaxoxo wrote: »Overhaul all the old content into a vet/normal separate instance (controversial)
Debuffing or other stuff to make the game harder is something only done by hardcore players like no death runs. Making this the way for a majority would be not cool and wouldnt solve the problem. The mobs are still very easy to kill because of their stats and because of the modifications you can not really test your builds in overlands for dungeons/trials or pvp. Overall this would be the worst solution, because it would only fix the problem for the smalest group. Adding those extra challanges for these type of players would be another discussion.spartaxoxo wrote: »Offer debuffs to players in some fashion (controversial)
Simply yes and i would say it could be added even with vet and normal seperation, because vet dungeons are that way too and it is really cool if you had a hard time at vet mode and then trying to kill a boss on hard mode.spartaxoxo wrote: »Add challenge banners to story bosses (mostly agreed upon)
I am against both of these, because they will take a lot of time to implement and change the world. On top it could be locked behind some dlc/addon and this is really not what we want. The adventure zone is suppose to be a group and farm zone, adding more of these will not make questing more enjoyable and simply doesnt solve the problem. Same for new content to old zones, the existing content is already good, it is ask for a challange to do this for some players. In my view these two doesnt adress the problem and are off topic. In general, if some wish, this can be discussed in another thread.spartaxoxo wrote: »Add new adventure standalone zones (largely undiscussed)
Add new content to existing zones meant to shake them up (largely undiscussed)3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is the only topic allowed for vet overland and all solutions for it are on topic.0 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭For existing zones the debuff system is really the only viable approach, but it is a very simple one and could very easily be implemented. If rich Lambert thinks otherwise he's over implicating the problem. The game already supports modifiers to damage received and damage done (CP). It also supports modifiers that work on a per zone basis (battle spirit). So the simplest way of implementing a veteran difficulty setting for overland would be to add 3 modifiers that the player can turn on or off as desired. The first would reduce healing received by around 80% (80 is just a suggestion but something around that value would probably be about right). The second would reduce damage done to NPCs by around 80%. And the third would increase damage taken from NPCs by around 400%. All these modifiers would apply, when selected, in all overland, delve and public dungeon instances, except the reduced healing received one would be overridden by the similar one baked into Battle Spirit when in Cyrodiil.
The combined effect would reasonably increase ttk on NPC enemies without having any effect on other players (the NPCs themselves aren't buffed, only their interaction with the player selecting vet mode) and while retaining the ability to optimise performance (a good setup will still perform better than a bad one as the debuffs are just percentage based).
The other thing that could be done quite easily is allowing group instances for delves and public dungeons (and by extension also public instances for stuff in Craglorn which new players sometimes find intimidating), just add a public / group selection when you enter the delve or a setting like the vet / normal content selector. That would also allow for solo instances as that's what the group setting would give if you were solo.
I think that's as much as is reasonable to ask for existing zones: realistically there's only so much effort the developers would want to commit to overhauling existing content.
For new zones though, it would be great to see more interesting NPC mechanics - more varied attack patterns, use of shields, healing, charge attacks etc. They might still be as easy as ever to kill on normal mode (and accordingly more difficult on 'vet') but at least they would be more interesting to fight.2 -
Captain_OP✭✭✭For existing zones the debuff system is really the only viable approach, but it is a very simple one and could very easily be implemented. If rich Lambert thinks otherwise he's over implicating the problem. The game already supports modifiers to damage received and damage done (CP). It also supports modifiers that work on a per zone basis (battle spirit). So the simplest way of implementing a veteran difficulty setting for overland would be to add 3 modifiers that the player can turn on or off as desired. The first would reduce healing received by around 80% (80 is just a suggestion but something around that value would probably be about right). The second would reduce damage done to NPCs by around 80%. And the third would increase damage taken from NPCs by around 400%. All these modifiers would apply, when selected, in all overland, delve and public dungeon instances, except the reduced healing received one would be overridden by the similar one baked into Battle Spirit when in Cyrodiil.
The combined effect would reasonably increase ttk on NPC enemies without having any effect on other players (the NPCs themselves aren't buffed, only their interaction with the player selecting vet mode) and while retaining the ability to optimise performance (a good setup will still perform better than a bad one as the debuffs are just percentage based).
The other thing that could be done quite easily is allowing group instances for delves and public dungeons (and by extension also public instances for stuff in Craglorn which new players sometimes find intimidating), just add a public / group selection when you enter the delve or a setting like the vet / normal content selector. That would also allow for solo instances as that's what the group setting would give if you were solo.
I think that's as much as is reasonable to ask for existing zones: realistically there's only so much effort the developers would want to commit to overhauling existing content.
For new zones though, it would be great to see more interesting NPC mechanics - more varied attack patterns, use of shields, healing, charge attacks etc. They might still be as easy as ever to kill on normal mode (and accordingly more difficult on 'vet') but at least they would be more interesting to fight.
Only increasing the difficult doesnt make it more fun. True the modifiers make it harder, but will tune down the game experience. In Normal and vet dungeons exist the same ability but with small modifications, which is fun because you learn the easy version without hard punishment and then get to know the harder version. Like a aoe damage that get a short stun in veteran mode. Difficulty doesnt rely on stats, it depends on the challange of gameplay aswell. Debuffs alone will not solve the issue. And another downside is that it feel akward when players running the same content dont have the same difficulty. Example: you doing a public dungeon boss and have the hardest time of your life, meanwhile a level 10 player straight up kill it easy and you have to hit and run while he does the job for you. Players should all be set on a equal challange when they play together, else it feels akward or you question yourself why you do that to yourself.5 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would.
An optional seperate instance wouldn't ruin it for you. According to your repeated dev statement "a huge amount" of people would remain in normal instances. So your newbies have enough people around if they should ever need help.
Does the existance of veteran dungeons and trials impact you negatively? If so, how?
And a word about the logic that a certain difficulty drives people off - you are right. Normal overland certainly drives me off from questing. I skipped so many content because it doesn't fit me. See, this goes both ways.- Separation of the playerbase
- If enough players utilized veteran overland it would disrupt the balance of new to experienced players in the zone... which I honestly don't think will happen because...
- It's a minority who want more difficult overland, and would take a lot of work to set up, according to Rich
- It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase
- If increased rewards in veteran overland those who are not and may never be powerful enough are left out
I still can't wrap my head around how point 1/2 (which are essentially the same?) go together with point 3.- If only a minority moves then there is nothing to fear about balance / player experience.
- If so many players move to vet that normal becomes orphaned, wouldn't that mean that vet instances are long overdue?
- If the influx of new player is so big, then even a mass migration of vet players wouldn't make a ghost town out of normal instances.
Bonus questions:
How does a separated playerbase in n/v differs from vets not doing OL at all?
Wouldn't the already mentioned shared zone chat solve the issue of "the balance of new to experienced players"? Ask for help go through to vets. Vets can share their knowledge. Scammers can still do their thing.
If better rewards in harder content leaves out some players, why isn't the forum littered with ever repeating complains about perfected sets, purple drops, monster masks, skins, titles, archievements etc.? Biggest part of the player base can't push through vet trials either, yet I don't see people leaving over better rewards from there.
An "improvements that could help the entire playerbase" would be what in terms of new content? Another year of chapters and DLCs which stories are a faceroll for experienced players?
And yet again, we don't even know how difficult and cumbersome it is to set any of this up.8 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »
But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would.
An optional seperate instance wouldn't ruin it for you. According to your repeated dev statement "a huge amount" of people would remain in normal instances. So your newbies have enough people around if they should ever need help.
Does the existance of veteran dungeons and trials impact you negatively? If so, how?
And a word about the logic that a certain difficulty drives people off - you are right. Normal overland certainly drives me off from questing. I skipped so many content because it doesn't fit me. See, this goes both ways.- Separation of the playerbase
- If enough players utilized veteran overland it would disrupt the balance of new to experienced players in the zone... which I honestly don't think will happen because...
- It's a minority who want more difficult overland, and would take a lot of work to set up, according to Rich
- It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase
- If increased rewards in veteran overland those who are not and may never be powerful enough are left out
But SilverBride, these are talking points, not genuine justifications for why a Veteran Overland experience cannot be provided. This agenda prevents someone else from choosing what they want for themselves as this is an idea they own and is not fathomable by anyone else. [snip]
Furthermore the player base is already divided heavily without adding a Veteran Overland option (including threads such as this one). Meaning any change they make is just going to put people into different categories that already exist, have existed for many years now and whose existence has never been seriously addressed or otherwise challenged from the Dev Team. So why make a big deal of it now for lesser concerns? [snip] Ideas for or against a Vet Overland must be able to run both ways and the cornerstone for making rational decisions is being able to choose free of obligation but not necessarily free of responsibility.
In summation, it has now become clear to me that the kind of change we're looking for must start with the Dev Team, I sincerely thank them for hearing us all out and shall keep a look out for any changes thru the upcoming year. I also understand the world is in a mess right now plus merger with Microsoft I believe so if they can do this it may take some time which is fine. I really wish when time and resource permits, when they feel ready and willing to answer, ZOS should consider answering us. So with that said I'm moving on for now, will check back with ESO later on this year as I'm sure they'll have something interesting going on.
Happy New Year's all, Stay Safe and Well
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2021 4:30PM5 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭Captain_OP wrote: »For existing zones the debuff system is really the only viable approach, but it is a very simple one and could very easily be implemented. If rich Lambert thinks otherwise he's over implicating the problem. The game already supports modifiers to damage received and damage done (CP). It also supports modifiers that work on a per zone basis (battle spirit). So the simplest way of implementing a veteran difficulty setting for overland would be to add 3 modifiers that the player can turn on or off as desired. The first would reduce healing received by around 80% (80 is just a suggestion but something around that value would probably be about right). The second would reduce damage done to NPCs by around 80%. And the third would increase damage taken from NPCs by around 400%. All these modifiers would apply, when selected, in all overland, delve and public dungeon instances, except the reduced healing received one would be overridden by the similar one baked into Battle Spirit when in Cyrodiil.
The combined effect would reasonably increase ttk on NPC enemies without having any effect on other players (the NPCs themselves aren't buffed, only their interaction with the player selecting vet mode) and while retaining the ability to optimise performance (a good setup will still perform better than a bad one as the debuffs are just percentage based).
The other thing that could be done quite easily is allowing group instances for delves and public dungeons (and by extension also public instances for stuff in Craglorn which new players sometimes find intimidating), just add a public / group selection when you enter the delve or a setting like the vet / normal content selector. That would also allow for solo instances as that's what the group setting would give if you were solo.
I think that's as much as is reasonable to ask for existing zones: realistically there's only so much effort the developers would want to commit to overhauling existing content.
For new zones though, it would be great to see more interesting NPC mechanics - more varied attack patterns, use of shields, healing, charge attacks etc. They might still be as easy as ever to kill on normal mode (and accordingly more difficult on 'vet') but at least they would be more interesting to fight.
Only increasing the difficult doesnt make it more fun. True the modifiers make it harder, but will tune down the game experience. In Normal and vet dungeons exist the same ability but with small modifications, which is fun because you learn the easy version without hard punishment and then get to know the harder version. Like a aoe damage that get a short stun in veteran mode. Difficulty doesnt rely on stats, it depends on the challange of gameplay aswell. Debuffs alone will not solve the issue. And another downside is that it feel akward when players running the same content dont have the same difficulty. Example: you doing a public dungeon boss and have the hardest time of your life, meanwhile a level 10 player straight up kill it easy and you have to hit and run while he does the job for you. Players should all be set on a equal challange when they play together, else it feels akward or you question yourself why you do that to yourself.
I agree that debuffs are only part of the ideal answer, but they are extremely easy to add and realistically they are all we have even a chance of getting for existing zones. Plus, overland is public kind of by definition: you could instance delves perhaps, as is done in Craglorn, but the whole point of a mmo is interaction with other players so you really can't instance overland itself (except for the population balancing you sometimes see when a zone is full and you see "x player is in a different version of Craglorn" or whatever. So because you have all players in the same instance of overland you can't really have different mechanics, the normal players and the vet players would be side by side so all you can really do is change the difficulty experienced. That doesn't mean the mechanics followed by overland mobs couldn't be made more varied and interesting, but when you have multiple players going up against the same enemies in the same instance the behaviour of enemies can't be different for one player than it is for another. The other option would be to make a completely separate veteran instance of every zone with different mob mechanics, but that's upwards of 30 newzones to update, balance, allocate server resources to and realistically it won't happen, plus it would further fragment the player base.Edited by ajkb78 on December 31, 2021 11:19AM2