Overland Content Feedback Thread

Sylvermynx

Eh, no dev needs to "satisfy" casuals. Those of us who exemplify "casual" are perfectly happy with the game as it is.

I feel sorry for the dev who has to try to satisfy the "harder harder harder" people - who aren't even on the same page with "HOW MUCH harder?" to begin with.

FlopsyPrince

"Athan1 wrote: »

A relevant issue is level-scaling. I get why One Tamriel happened, but it's actually terrible that you can go anywhere and do anything. The finale zones have to be more difficult/challenging than the tutorial zone, but unfortunately they are not. I think that other games like GW2 have a good balance, where your level is scaled in zones of lower level than yours, but you still can't access high-level zones. I get that people want to go anywhere, but why would a new player even want to land in zones Bangkorai when you first start the game?

No it is not. It was a shame that so much content had no value after you outleveled it. That is far worse.

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NeeScrolls wrote: »

hmm i thought the game *kicks* all companions once the group is FULL in dungeons/trials , no? Or were you talking about a non-queue'd version entering manually on-foot?

I was under the impression if you went into a dungeon with 4 people the companions were kicked period, actually? Didn't realize you could have 6 do it, seems it would really trivialize it.

It may be a bug because I saw it once too, in a random normal dungeon. We had 4 actual players AND a companion (the dude) from someone inside the dungeon instance. As the tank I kept getting confused and tried it chain him in a few times

Lysette wrote: »

It simply isn't a problem implemented in an efficient way

And that is simply something we cannot know, that ESO code is written efficiently for modern standards. I mean, they still consider a set like Bright Throat's Boast (link) to be a "proc set" because of how the code is written... Note that everything I said regarding their reasoning were things I saw in patch notes regarding proc set reworks and no-proc tests that they were doing in Cyrodiil.

I still don't think sets and skills having a chance to fail randomly would make gameplay anymore interesting/challenging or engaging in overland. We can already see this effect in Cyrodiil prime time. There if you press a button, it's anybody's guess whether the expected outcome would happen or not. It's nothing but frustrating.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

relevant issue is level-scaling. I get why One Tamriel happened, but it's actually terrible that you can go anywhere and do anything. The finale zones have to be more difficult/challenging than the tutorial zone, but unfortunately they are not. I think that other games like GW2 have a good balance, where your level is scaled in zones of lower level than yours, but you still can't access high-level zones. I get that people want to go anywhere, but why would a new player even want to land in zones Bangkorai when you first start the game?

No it is not. It was a shame that so much content had no value after you outleveled it. That is far worse.

I wasn't here before One Tamriel but I can't see how that aspect was worse. I already feel like I've outleveled all overland zones even on a new character, and I don't see any value in any of the new zones they release except for the mythic leads.

Captain_OP

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I don't feel strong one shorting mobs, it's like beating a person who's unable to defend themselves. Some of us find fun and feeling that we're somewhat strong in overcoming challenges thrown at us so harder the content we beat - the more fun and satisfaction we're getting from the session. To each their own, so denying people new modes isn't the path of inclusion.

This to be honest.

[Edit: Repaired comment link]

Chilly-McFreeze

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I don't feel strong one shorting mobs, it's like beating a person who's unable to defend themselves. Some of us find fun and feeling that we're somewhat strong in overcoming challenges thrown at us so harder the content we beat - the more fun and satisfaction we're getting from the session. To each their own, so denying people new modes isn't the path of inclusion.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I was just making the point that not all casual players will become more hardcore just because their characters have gotten more powerful.

Yes. It's very important to note too how player taste impacts such a thing as well, when the question of what the casuals who are currently happy will like a year ago from now arises.

Because a player that is happy now may not necessarily be unhappy a year later as the original question speculated, although it is true some won't be.

Well, with that attitude they could just stop updating the game or adding any new systems at all. Because some players are happy now. Doesn't seem to matter that many people went away or are unhappy with things. Some are happy...

Sylvermynx

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I don't feel strong one shorting mobs, it's like beating a person who's unable to defend themselves. Some of us find fun and feeling that we're somewhat strong in overcoming challenges thrown at us so harder the content we beat - the more fun and satisfaction we're getting from the session. To each their own, so denying people new modes isn't the path of inclusion.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I was just making the point that not all casual players will become more hardcore just because their characters have gotten more powerful.

Yes. It's very important to note too how player taste impacts such a thing as well, when the question of what the casuals who are currently happy will like a year ago from now arises.

Because a player that is happy now may not necessarily be unhappy a year later as the original question speculated, although it is true some won't be.

Well, with that attitude they could just stop updating the game or adding any new systems at all. Because some players are happy now. Doesn't seem to matter that many people went away or are unhappy with things. Some are happy...

And that's the main issue, the bottom line: someone's always not going to be happy. It's one of those "thee or me, or the other guy" things. I don't really see any way for that to not happen, unless everyone gets his or her personal difficulty slider, or personal instance, do you?

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because a player that is happy now may not necessarily be unhappy a year later as the original question speculated, although it is true some won't be.

Well, with that attitude they could just stop updating the game or adding any new systems at all. Because some players are happy now. Doesn't seem to matter that many people went away or are unhappy with things. Some are happy...

The fact that many of us are happy with overland difficulty as is does not mean we don't want more content. In fact, the opposite is true. Of course we want new zones and new systems and game improvements and look forward to much more.

As nice as it would be to keep every single player happy, it is an impossible feat. Every MMO has a steady influx of players and they all have their own reasons for why they stay or go.

The players who are happy are no more important than those who aren't, but the reverse of that is also true.

Chilly-McFreeze

SilverBride wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Because a player that is happy now may not necessarily be unhappy a year later as the original question speculated, although it is true some won't be.

Well, with that attitude they could just stop updating the game or adding any new systems at all. Because some players are happy now. Doesn't seem to matter that many people went away or are unhappy with things. Some are happy...

The fact that many of us are happy with overland difficulty as is does not mean we don't want more content. In fact, the opposite is true. Of course we want new zones and new systems and game improvements and look forward to much more.

As nice as it would be to keep every single player happy, it is an impossible feat. Every MMO has a steady influx of players and they all have their own reasons for why they stay or go.

The players who are happy are no more important than those who aren't, but the reverse of that is also true.

[snip]

Now you say you can't please everybody. Yet only shortly ago you said:

SilverBride wrote: »

• It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase
• If increased rewards in veteran overland those who are not and may never be powerful enough are left out

This feels like beating around the bush. And goes just as well together as your assumption that only a small minority wants vet content yet somehow a separate vet OL would make ghost towns out of normal instances.

What is your point? I can show you where you lost the ball.

Here are 3 mantras you pointed out:

1. You also say those happy aren't more important than those who are unhappy.
2. You say it's impossible to please all.
3. You say dev time should only be invested into something that nets sth for everyone.

By that logic ZOS should never dish out new story content as it doesn't benefit vet players.
Yet easy overland content holds newbies in higher regards as those who are in for the challenge.
ZOS should have never released companions because fixed groups and exp. players don't benefit from them.
They shouldn't release vet HM trials anymore as only a certain part of the player base can pull through them.
Should not balance around PvP / PvE as the opposing part could suffer from it.
They shouldn't create new pvp modes or maps either as your casual pve player gains nothing from it.
Housing only fits a part of the player base, but it get's material every single update.
Outfits/ visuals are only for those who are interested in it, yet I can buy / get new stuff almost every week.

See that your original point ("It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase") doesn't hold water?

They spend loads of dev power into certain things that only benefits certain parts of the player base. That seems to be okay for you but it doesn't seem right when they could potentially implement a separate instance of OL content.

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Now you say you can't please everybody. Yet only shortly ago you said:

SilverBride wrote: »

• It would take time and manpower from improvements that could help the entire playerbase
• If increased rewards in veteran overland those who are not and may never be powerful enough are left out

Those are some of the reasons why I am against a separate veteran overland. How is that contradictaory with not being able to please everyone?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

This feels like beating around the bush. And goes just as well together as your assumption that only a small minority wants vet content yet somehow a separate vet OL would make ghost towns out of normal instances.

I have stated that IF enough players used a veteran overland normal overland would suffer from the separation. But I also added that I really doubt that would happen because not enough players want it that it would make an impact. Which is just another reason why it's not worth the time and cost it would take to implement.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Here are 3 mantras you pointed out:

1. You also say those happy aren't more important than those who are unhappy.
2. You say it's impossible to please all.
3. You say dev time should only be invested into something that nets sth for everyone.

I also said that those who are unhappy aren't more important than those who are, either. That goes both ways. And it is impossible to please everyone because we all like different things. But what do these have to do with where developer time is spent?

I never said developer time should only be invested in something for everyone. What I said was developer time should not be invested in something that so few want or would use at the expense of projects that would help the rest of the playerbase. The rest of the playerbase isn't just casual players. It is also PvPers, housing enthusiasts, crafters, and even end game players, many of whom are happy with the content already provided for them.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

They spend loads of dev power into certain things that only benefits certain parts of the player base. That seems to be okay for you but it doesn't seem right when they could potentially implement a separate instance of OL content.

Of course they do because this game has something for everyone. There is content for PvPers, housing enthusiasts, crafters, etc. as there should be. But none of those are asking for huge dramatic overhauls of the base game.

Edited for clarity.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

I never said developer time should only be invested in something for everyone. What I said was developer time should not be invested in something that so few want or would use at the expense of projects that would help the rest of the playerbase.

[snip] Unless you really have some numbers about how desired is this functionality, then pls share...

[snip] This thread was a nice place to discuss about potential problems and solutions. About pros/cons of proposed solutions. [snip]

SilverBride wrote: »

There is content for PvPers, housing enthusiasts, crafters, etc. as there should be. But none of those are asking for huge dramatic overhauls of the base game.

Not even one word here is truth. PvPers are asking for new modes and performance fixes for years. Something that require huge amount of devs work which was highlighted by devs multiple times as they worked on multiple different solutions to this problem.
Housing ppl are asking for many things like increase furniture capacity, adding different chars as house guests, etc. Things like houseguests were introduced years after first complain abou lack of this feature started.
Crafters were asking for many things. They introduced crafting writs, jewelery crafting, craftable furniture, scrolls to speed up trait research. Most of those features were requested for a long time before they introduced them.
Each part of game that is present for at least couple years had at least one big, dramatic overhaul.

[edited for flaming]

Captain_OP

Like others already stated, this discussion is running in circles. Let`s move on and write the summary and the conclusion.

I start with a summary, broken down into the main points:

1. People want to choose their difficulty in Overland and Main Story.
2. Changing stats alone, could lead to disappointment.
3. For increased difficulty little rewards are expected.
4. Even if players dont play together in the same difficulty their communication should not be seperated aswell.
5. How it is done and everything technical is up to the developer team and can not be calcuated and rated by us the plaerbase.

Harvokaan

Captain_OP wrote: »

Like others already stated, this discussion is running in circles. Let`s move on and write the summary and the conclusion.

I start with a summary, broken down into the main points:

1. People want to choose their difficulty in Overland and Main Story.
2. Changing stats alone, could lead to disappointment.
3. For increased difficulty little rewards are expected.
4. Even if players dont play together in the same difficulty their communication should not be seperated aswell.
5. How it is done and everything technical is up to the developer team and can not be calcuated and rated by us the plaerbase.

6. Main problem of dissapointing difficulty are enemies related to quests. Incursions or WBs is something that many players don't have problem with. Multiple ppl stated that quest boss dying in couple seconds is the problem, not world bosses (but voices for increasing wb difficulty also happened)
7. Zos should introduce some method to measure what is the real % of the players who would use new vet overland feature as they dont have the data for that now. They could for example introduce vet zone for new chapter and later check the numbers how popular it was. Of course it is just a suggestion but this issue is important: zos doesn't know how many players would benefit from that. Solid numbers would give them more infos about what direction they should take

NeeScrolls

Captain_OP wrote: »

, this discussion is running in circles.

That started way back on like page 25 lol

Captain_OP wrote: »

Let's' move on and write the summary and the conclusion:

Here's mine:
1. @ZOS_ should just leave Britney---err i mean--- 'overland' alone!
2. i decided to finally run 'Vateshrans Rites' ARENA last nite, as a *healer* ( it doesn't allow companions btw) and had PLENTY of solo challenge! #barelyhadtime2blink
3. uhh, Happy New Year 2022 everyone?

./thread

spartaxoxo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally I don't feel strong one shorting mobs, it's like beating a person who's unable to defend themselves. Some of us find fun and feeling that we're somewhat strong in overcoming challenges thrown at us so harder the content we beat - the more fun and satisfaction we're getting from the session. To each their own, so denying people new modes isn't the path of inclusion.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I was just making the point that not all casual players will become more hardcore just because their characters have gotten more powerful.

Yes. It's very important to note too how player taste impacts such a thing as well, when the question of what the casuals who are currently happy will like a year ago from now arises.

Because a player that is happy now may not necessarily be unhappy a year later as the original question speculated, although it is true some won't be.

Well, with that attitude they could just stop updating the game or adding any new systems at all. Because some players are happy now. Doesn't seem to matter that many people went away or are unhappy with things. Some are happy...

Acknowledging that others exist who are happy in no way constitutes an "attitude" that they should do nothing.

I have suggestesd multiple different things I think they should do including develop entirely new content, which I know you are well aware.

[snip]

I want a way to make vet overland harder, period. That I disagree with overhauling the old content does not negate that I have presented other ideas or spoken in favor it. I want a way to optionally increase difficulty, acknowledging reality don't change that. Not liking any particular idea does not change that. I am sick and tired of having my position redefined for tens of pages.

I am not required to like any particular solution to want an optionally harder vet experience.

Edit

For anyone who wants to know my actual view on the topic.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Here I will do my own one of these

1) No Vet Overland options at all

Pros
Costs literally nothing
Cons
Doesn't address any current concerns

2) Forced Vet Overland

Pros
The players that stick around will have to become better at the game, increasing the quality of groups.

Cons
When Arenanet did this a lot of their players quit and this game would probably also see a large exodus

3) Debuffs

Pros
Unified playerbase
Cheap to implement
Difficulty is customizable to the individual player's needs

Cons
Doesn't leave room for new mechs
Requires micromanagement
Many would find it immersion breaking
No incentives

4) Separate instance

Pros
You can adjust how often mobs attack or create new mechanics
It is highly immersive
More popular
You can push it to a higher difficulty

Cons
Splits the playerbase
Costly time wise for devs
Incentive issue

Edit

5) Challenge Banners

Pros
Makes the big bad of the story an actual threat
Can give new mechanics
Has no impact on anyone that doesn't want to use it
Cons
Only works on bosses and does no address trash packs or non-instanced minibosses

6) Brand New Standalone Zones
Pros
These can be tuned to any vet difficulty
new mechs
Will have the shiny new content feel each year
Can give incentives without the incentive problem of other two main solution

Cons
Few will be able to do it
Significantly less content impacted
Takes away a dungeon
Ton of work

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I had a post somewhere compiling all the ideas that I personally liked but it didn't really generate much discussion.

Edit

Okay there it is and a couple of other ones that I really liked.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

summ0004 wrote: »

The difficulty is what they can do about it, as I dont believe a redo of the entire old overland is a realistic solution.

Agreed 100%

I'd like to see

*Debuff food
*Challenge Banner for Story Bosses
*Daedric Rifts buffed (random event in old overland could cause vet mobs to spawn. These are easily avoided)
*A Single New Zone that's like Craglorn with a completely standalone story and a dungeon. Maybe replace one of the dungeon dlcs with this. See if it would be popular. If it's more popular than a full dungeon dlc then maybe one of the dungeon dlcs going forward could be a small adventure zone with only 1 new dungeon instead.

Vaoh wrote: »

I think the issue would be solved if there was a new section under Options > Gameplay for this.

Difficulty Slider

Debilitation Potency
“Apply Debilitation onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Increases your Damage Taken, reduces your Damage Dealt, and reduces your Healing Taken by the following percentage.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Allied Healing
“Apply Debilitation II onto yourself. This effect cannot be purged. Reduces the amount of Healing Dealt you provide to your pets and allies.”
Slider List: Off, 0-99%.

Difficulty Scenario
“Determines the scenarios in which Debilitation and Debilitation II are deactivated. Note: Both effects will already deactivate in Duels, PvP areas, and any content which has a Veteran counterpart.”
Slider List: None, Public Dungeons, World Events, World Bosses, (any mix of the three).

No extra rewards. No need to swap out all of your hard earned gear/skills/CP. This is the only way to go about this situation and make everyone happy imo.

XomRhoK wrote: »

Partly agree. Debuffing player not very good option from perception of player, players moslty want to become powerfull, not weaker, but in numbers and effect on combat there is no difference from debuffing player and buffing enemies. For example, player have damage 2, creature have 8 HP, player kill creature in 4 hits, you want to prolonge fight in two times you can debuff player by decreasing his damage to 1, or you can "scale" creature to 16 HP, same result. But players just don't want to debuff themselves and it's understandable. Debuffing is just a method to achieve result and it suggested because it is easier to implement, no need to mock player that he were debuffed. Debuff will be invisible for player, and it more of the wording and and getting right attitude. For example
- Overland Veteran: Rumors about your adventures are widely known, all enemies will fight against you with additional fervor, they will deal double damage against you and resist against your attacks twice as good (+100% damage done to you and +50% more resist from your attacks to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

- Overland Veteran Hard Mode: Every citizen of Tamriel know your name and deeds, all enemies will fight for their lives against you, they will deal quadruple damage against you and resist against your attacks four times better (+300% damage done to you and +75% more resist from your attacks to overland NPCs. Dungeons, trials, duels and PvP excluded). While this option is active you will recieve special frame around your Health bar:

With smoth progression difficulty sliders it will be different, but you can see the idea.
Before i think for myself on scaling mobs, smart scaling depending on number of players and their power, but i come to one aspect that can't be avoided, in my opinion, it's a AOE attacks of the mobs. Single attacks can be scaled depending on who monster attack, but AOE can't so it will be too weak to not kill weak players, or to powerfull and will one shot weaker players. Debuffing players individually have no such problem and much easier to implement.

[edited for rude comment]

Cireous

Sliders. Survival Mode option. Somehow not altering/affecting World Bosses and Incursions. This is the dream. I wouldn't even mind the occasional immersion breaking ESO Ebook Novice player disintegrating the NPCs in front of me with two light attacks. I have patience and I can wait for them to move on to continue my full blooded legendary immersion playthrough. Chapter zones are pretty much empty, anyways, since Greymoor, for whatever reason. Shouldn't be a big deal.

Ever since the Champion points change, where they took the choice of added health through CP point allocation and gave it to us innately, I haven't been able to play gear-free/CP-free pretend difficulty with any success. We now have too much unalterable health to allow for any fun anymore.

Something has gotta give, and soon.

mocap

nice emplementation of "overland" i saw in Fallout 76. With identical HP pool, one mob will hit harder high level player, while low level player will get less punishment. Both players stand in one instance. F76 still have a casual overland lol, but it something at least.

Captain_OP

mocap wrote: »

nice emplementation of "overland" i saw in Fallout 76. With identical HP pool, one mob will hit harder high level player, while low level player will get less punishment. Both players stand in one instance. F76 still have a casual overland lol, but it something at least.

While this is true, it is a diffrent game. In a shooter it is expected to one-shot everything with good equipment and build. In other words, this solution works for short fights, but we want longer fights.

SilverBride

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

Chilly-McFreeze

SilverBride wrote: »

In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

And I can't believe that the gist of 56 pages is that this topic is about critter level mobs.


E:
Most of this thread is about story and side bosses, partly about standard overland mobs. Not about the lowest tier trash mobs.
If you have played the sp TES games you'd notice that e.g wolfs are a faceroll there too after a certain leveling, yet deadras still pose a challenge (at least they should).

SilverBride

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

And I can't believe that the gist of 56 pages is that this topic is about critter level mobs.

Most of the posts say they want longer and more challenging fights because one hitting mobs isn't immersive. They don't distinguish between trash mobs or otherwise. If they don't care about trash mobs becoming more difficult then they could just use challenge banners for story bosses and world bosses and a separate veteran overland would not be necessary.

Harvokaan

SilverBride wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

And I can't believe that the gist of 56 pages is that this topic is about critter level mobs.

Most of the posts say they want longer and more challenge fights because one hitting mobs isn't immersive. They don't distinguish between trash mobs or otherwise. If they don't care about trash mobs becoming more difficult then they could just use challenge banners for story bosses and world bosses and a separate veteran overland would not be necessary.

Most examples given in this thread specified: mainly quest bosses and quest mobs are the problem. not random wolves or mudcrabs that have 13k hp in current overland as nobody cares about them except bots and farming ppl.
If you have a quest to fight in the castle, kill some bandits, retrieve some documents etc then we want t have a proper fights against those bandits and their leader.
[snip]

SilverBride wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

For you it is not needed. For us the current trivial difficulty makes the world and its dangers unbelievable and boring. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Vulkunne

Oblivion and Skyrim are examples for what Overland Vet could be like. Many players play those games and then come into ESO ... not understanding why there is no challenge to Overland. I've said it, I've heard it said by others on numerous occasions.

What's being asked for is same difference that already exists in other Elder Scroll games, which is more lore accurate as well.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

But it does. It does make the story less believable because there is nothing to risk in taking down the enemies, where applicable.

That's what I enjoyed about Oblivion, yeah some Goblins and Rats were easy to kill and others were not but it always felt like a well-tempered experience. The hard fights are what makes a quest memorable. But I think part of the problem, unfort, is maybe they focused on putting in too many quests and it all blends together. For example, in Oblivion we have the hunt for Mehrunes Razor. My favorite quest from Oblivion by far. You meet varying degrees of enemies and solve interesting problems and in general it takes some time to get to know the place in order to pass the quest.

Now in Oblivion, all quests aren't like this and they don't need to be. But this is the point. Oblivion quests were engaging, intriguing, sparked the imagination a little bit and made the player question their build, their choices, the direction they were heading in the game. But if everything was just ridiculously easy like it is now with ESO Overland, no one would care about the content. ESO has some of this but overtime given the sheer volume of quests it all sort of blends together. And I say this respectfully, its also a Balance thing. It is not just about difficulty however I think that any disagreement over how difficulty should be assigned can be resolved thru lore, as this has worked just fine for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

It is literally the difference between reading a good murder mystery and reading something with no depth. I don't have much of a library anymore but growing up I had all kinds of science fiction novels and horror/murder mysteries which I always took my time reading because they were interesting and presented me with unique situations.

Vulkunne

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, no dev needs to "satisfy" casuals. Those of us who exemplify "casual" are perfectly happy with the game as it is.

I feel sorry for the dev who has to try to satisfy the "harder harder harder" people - who aren't even on the same page with "HOW MUCH harder?" to begin with.

Difficulty needs to be in sync with lore, same with the story.

SilverBride

Vulkunne wrote: »

Difficulty needs to be in sync with lore, same with the story.

Wouldn't that be just the dangerous mobs then? A challenge banner for the big story bosses and even the smaller bosses that are part of the quest chains would definitely make them more interesting for those who find them too easy. They could even extend challenge banners to include World Bosses since these can be fought multiple times unlike the story bosses, and maybe delve and public dungeon bosses. This wouldn't require a separate veteran overland or a debuff and the mobs that some want to be harder would be.

Elsonso

Vulkunne wrote: »

Oblivion and Skyrim are examples for what Overland Vet could be like. Many players play those games and then come into ESO ... not understanding why there is no challenge to Overland. I've said it, I've heard it said by others on numerous occasions.

What's being asked for is same difference that already exists in other Elder Scroll games, which is more lore accurate as well.

Hmm.

I am struck by the thought that a player who has put, say 200 hours, into an Oblivion (unmoddded), Skyrim (unmodded) , and ESO character, will find overland pretty much the same. The monsters may have changed in Oblivion and Skyrim, where they did not in ESO, but they no longer present any difficulty.

FlopsyPrince

Many of us definitely do not want overland, including questing, to be much harder than it is.

I am not sure what the exact balance is, but I suspect it is not as one-sided in favor of making things harder as some in the thread assert.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

There's no doubt in my mind that any acceptable implementation of a veteran overland is a lotta work but unfortunately for the team, it's inevitable work that needs to be done and anyone asking for it now is just ahead of the curve of where even the more casual playerbase will be down the line.

The power level in which the game becomes trivialized is super low (CP300-ish) and they're almost on their sixth year of selling standalone expansion packs at retail. Anyone who has played one or two of the chapters through completion in addition to the base game's story has reached the aforementioned CP300-ish power level by playing extremely casually. How many more years is it gonna be a sustainable business model to sell $40 expansions where anyone who has played the game for a decent amount of time is one-shotting the enemy NPCs?

I really don't believe casual players are going to become less casual over time. It's a playstyle and the desire for a relaxed gaming experience doesn't go away just because the player gets more powerful.

A lot of players enjoy feeling strong, and one shotting mobs gives that feeling much better than struggling with wolves and bears.

Indeed - my argonian has stats of 23/33/34k - regeneration 1.3/1.9/1.8k - high resistances, powerful damage shield, plus extra regeneration from dark cloak and resolving vigor and passives from shadow and heavy armor - he can stand his ground and can take on world bosses in normal overland, everything else cannot even harm him. But what is he doing - he is an excavator and explorer, digging up the treasures of the past, he has no intention to harm anything or anyone, who isn't messing with him - this won't change, he is enjoying himself exploring and digging up the treasures of the past.

Lysette

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, no dev needs to "satisfy" casuals. Those of us who exemplify "casual" are perfectly happy with the game as it is.

I feel sorry for the dev who has to try to satisfy the "harder harder harder" people - who aren't even on the same page with "HOW MUCH harder?" to begin with.

and it will never end as well until it will be too hard and then the complains go in the other direction - people will always find ways to outdo NPCs, if that is possible at all - so there will always be people wanting more challenge - this is power creep and has to be avoided. We have enough of that already with the multitude of armor sets, which are on a path of power creep, making content too easy and then people complain about low difficulty - but they create it themselves with grinding for even more powerful armor and weapons.

Lysette

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Captain_OP wrote: »

...we want longer fights.

I have a hard time understanding this. There are countless quests and it can take several months for a character to get through every quest in every zone with easy mobs. Why make it take three to four times longer with difficult mobs? That doesn't make the story any more believable. In fact I find it unbelievable that a powerful character would find a wolf challenging.

But it does. It does make the story less believable because there is nothing to risk in taking down the enemies, where applicable.

That's what I enjoyed about Oblivion, yeah some Goblins and Rats were easy to kill and others were not but it always felt like a well-tempered experience. The hard fights are what makes a quest memorable. But I think part of the problem, unfort, is maybe they focused on putting in too many quests and it all blends together. For example, in Oblivion we have the hunt for Mehrunes Razor. My favorite quest from Oblivion by far. You meet varying degrees of enemies and solve interesting problems and in general it takes some time to get to know the place in order to pass the quest.

Now in Oblivion, all quests aren't like this and they don't need to be. But this is the point. Oblivion quests were engaging, intriguing, sparked the imagination a little bit and made the player question their build, their choices, the direction they were heading in the game. But if everything was just ridiculously easy like it is now with ESO Overland, no one would care about the content. ESO has some of this but overtime given the sheer volume of quests it all sort of blends together. And I say this respectfully, its also a Balance thing. It is not just about difficulty however I think that any disagreement over how difficulty should be assigned can be resolved thru lore, as this has worked just fine for all previous Elder Scrolls games.

It is literally the difference between reading a good murder mystery and reading something with no depth. I don't have much of a library anymore but growing up I had all kinds of science fiction novels and horror/murder mysteries which I always took my time reading because they were interesting and presented me with unique situations.

I don't know if Oblivion is a good example - my characters were gods with level 20 - due to spell crafting - all you need are weapons absorbing the stats from your opponents and fast weapons for a quick stats transfer - and you are a god in Oblivion, killing everything with ease and no challenge at all -- you simply absorb their strength and endurance until they are frozen in place and as powerful as a kitchen towel.