Overland Content Feedback Thread

Lysette

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

They would obviously not do "vet achievements" if there would be no way of repeating said quests on a new difficulty, same as there would be just exactly same achievements but now with ability to complete on any difficulty you prefer so if you already did everything you would literally gain no new ones. Can't imagine Zeni doing things differently and I'm unsure why anyone expects them to fail in the literally easiest part of such implementation. Just share normal and vet progress or include possibility of repeating stories. Pretty sure they would manage not to forget such a simple thing, not a rocket science at all.

We have up to 18 character slots, so there is a way to redo content - with a different character - so why not just play one of those in a different way than before - avoiding overpowering them and just playing along with average gear?

colossalvoids

Lysette wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

They would obviously not do "vet achievements" if there would be no way of repeating said quests on a new difficulty, same as there would be just exactly same achievements but now with ability to complete on any difficulty you prefer so if you already did everything you would literally gain no new ones. Can't imagine Zeni doing things differently and I'm unsure why anyone expects them to fail in the literally easiest part of such implementation. Just share normal and vet progress or include possibility of repeating stories. Pretty sure they would manage not to forget such a simple thing, not a rocket science at all.

We have up to 18 character slots, so there is a way to redo content - with a different character - so why not just play one of those in a different way than before - avoiding overpowering them and just playing along with average gear?

Is that question aimed on me personally? I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main but what was said above isn't targeted on my "wants", it's what zenimax likely do if vet version would ever occur.

I'd guess ones who interested already doing/done it, at least I've done so (on another server, my eu one is 18/18) and know people also going same route. To be honest that's not helping that much, you don't need gear or cp to overpower anything. A habit of weaving (or bash weaving), dodging and blocking which is a second nature makes barefist characters same murder machine, lol. Nowadays I'm only logging on main character so

SilverBride

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

Lysette

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

They would obviously not do "vet achievements" if there would be no way of repeating said quests on a new difficulty, same as there would be just exactly same achievements but now with ability to complete on any difficulty you prefer so if you already did everything you would literally gain no new ones. Can't imagine Zeni doing things differently and I'm unsure why anyone expects them to fail in the literally easiest part of such implementation. Just share normal and vet progress or include possibility of repeating stories. Pretty sure they would manage not to forget such a simple thing, not a rocket science at all.

We have up to 18 character slots, so there is a way to redo content - with a different character - so why not just play one of those in a different way than before - avoiding overpowering them and just playing along with average gear?

Is that question aimed on me personally? I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main but what was said above isn't targeted on my "wants", it's what zenimax likely do if vet version would ever occur.

I'd guess ones who interested already doing/done it, at least I've done so (on another server, my eu one is 18/18) and know people also going same route. To be honest that's not helping that much, you don't need gear or cp to overpower anything. A habit of weaving (or bash weaving), dodging and blocking which is a second nature makes barefist characters same murder machine, lol. Nowadays I'm only logging on main character so

I made a suggestion which would be easy to implement - embracing unpredictability of skills and proc sets - giving those a chance to fail or underperform - this would break rotations and the challenge would come from having to adapt to what is actually happening and not just rely on muscle memory rotations. This would be quite easy to implement, because it is basically just a slider to adjust interface-wise and a probability based adjustment of the effects - either by not taking place at all or reducing their effects - this is not rocket science and could be done without to change anything else.

But I guess, that is not what people would want, when they are saying they want a challenge - let it fail 25% of the time for example, and underperform on a regular basis - with percentages between 25 and 95% effect - leads to an average reduction of 55% together with the failing chance of 25% - and if one still feels like being overpowered, the failing chance could be set even higher.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

well, it is already broken anyway - like if you don't free Lyris, you will still encounter her on other quests, even she should not be able to. Or take the 3-faction war - which is just taking place in Cyrodiil, whereas outside of this region all is a multi-cultural mix where factions are just ignored - it just doesn't matter what faction I belong to in most places - even the story is about the war as well, but immersion is broken due to how this is handled.

colossalvoids

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

Not sure how exactly as we're already have repeatable quests, every event or dlc. Every time you're entering a dungeon, arena or a trial you're "redoing" said quest even if you're opted out of this option - characters are still talking and reacting, it's the same as your first venture here.

Anyway I'd mention in 3rd or 4th time that I'm not advocating for anything here but mentioning one of the two likely results of vet overland implementation - either new vet achievements which would obviously need an ability to replay those, or merged ones so you're able to complete content on any difficulty for the same achievements - meaning zero new ones if said content already played.

LashanW

Lysette wrote: »

I made a suggestion which would be easy to implement - embracing unpredictability of skills and proc sets - giving those a chance to fail or underperform - this would break rotations and the challenge would come from having to adapt to what is actually happening and not just rely on muscle memory rotations. This would be quite easy to implement, because it is basically just a slider to adjust interface-wise and a probability based adjustment of the effects - either by not taking place at all or reducing their effects - this is not rocket science and could be done without to change anything else.

But I guess, that is not what people would want, when they are saying they want a challenge - let it fail 25% of the time for example, and underperform on a regular basis - with percentages between 25 and 95% effect - leads to an average reduction of 55% together with the failing chance of 25% - and if one still feels like being overpowered, the failing chance could be set even higher.

I showed on a video earlier that people can easily breeze through overland with just some basic craftable gear (no proc sets, just some max stats and recovery/cost reduction). Skills on the other hand, yes that is what allows people to trivialize questing content. Basically understanding how your class/combat work. I personally find it hard to un-learn things.

But I don't think your suggestion is good technical-wise. ZoS reworked a lot of sets that operated on a random chance and made it so they activated in a guaranteed manner upon meeting the proc condition. Their reasoning was that calculating the random chances all the time stressed the servers more.

colossalvoids

Lysette wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think he underestimates though that a lot of people would be satisfied with like blue drops and a bit more coin just to get something that was actually satisfying to them to play.

That's a thing that is not worth an effort for them as I see it personally. It would be more realistic to expect some new content with rewards, achievements and all the general stuff ticking all current Zeni boxes deriving from their formula, preferably having zero connection to old zones/content.

But we're hitting the wall of "gated content" then which is what they've rid of in a first place.

I honestly don't think it's realistic they'd put achievements and collectibles behind one time only content because that enters into the exact territory they have repeatedly stressed they want to get away from and the largest barrier they had towards it. I don't think he'd even bring up incentives if they were just gonna do the same thing they always do there. They have reduced the barrier to getting those kinds of rewards as of late, no way they go back.

Actually I don't think I have heard of any mmo going back into years old content and putting new achievements into quests their established players can no longer do because they already did them. Repeatable content, sure. But not one time only content.

I'm not talking about "end game" achievements and collectibles, I'd expect a mirror of what we have in general zones nowadays - complete quest chain, get useless emote or a pet, defeat world bosses etc., I'm pretty sure if some form of vet overland existed it would be something in those lines, or just plain shared achievements so you can complete zone on veteran getting all the same normal difficulty achievements. "Expect" is a lose term as I expect exactly nothing, just what's possible to occurre.

If they did a vet overland I don't think it would be separate quests. It would probably work like it does in dungeons, normal or vet the quest is the quest and it can only be done once. Doing it that way would result in people losing out on achievements permanently should they do them in normal. And also ruin the accounts of everyone who has done them.

They would obviously not do "vet achievements" if there would be no way of repeating said quests on a new difficulty, same as there would be just exactly same achievements but now with ability to complete on any difficulty you prefer so if you already did everything you would literally gain no new ones. Can't imagine Zeni doing things differently and I'm unsure why anyone expects them to fail in the literally easiest part of such implementation. Just share normal and vet progress or include possibility of repeating stories. Pretty sure they would manage not to forget such a simple thing, not a rocket science at all.

We have up to 18 character slots, so there is a way to redo content - with a different character - so why not just play one of those in a different way than before - avoiding overpowering them and just playing along with average gear?

Is that question aimed on me personally? I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main but what was said above isn't targeted on my "wants", it's what zenimax likely do if vet version would ever occur.

I'd guess ones who interested already doing/done it, at least I've done so (on another server, my eu one is 18/18) and know people also going same route. To be honest that's not helping that much, you don't need gear or cp to overpower anything. A habit of weaving (or bash weaving), dodging and blocking which is a second nature makes barefist characters same murder machine, lol. Nowadays I'm only logging on main character so

I made a suggestion which would be easy to implement - embracing unpredictability of skills and proc sets - giving those a chance to fail or underperform - this would break rotations and the challenge would come from having to adapt to what is actually happening and not just rely on muscle memory rotations. This would be quite easy to implement, because it is basically just a slider to adjust interface-wise and a probability based adjustment of the effects - either by not taking place at all or reducing their effects - this is not rocket science and could be done without to change anything else.

But I guess, that is not what people would want, when they are saying they want a challenge - let it fail 25% of the time for example, and underperform on a regular basis - with percentages between 25 and 95% effect - leads to an average reduction of 55% together with the failing chance of 25% - and if one still feels like being overpowered, the failing chance could be set even higher.

There are games with some similar systems but I'm really not seeing this as something fitting eso, especially when we're moved from "miss chance" and related stats years ago when last nail was change to evasion mechanics and some percentage based stats.

Idk but eso is an action game for me personally, kinda "dark souls kids edition" and hit chance on a target that done virtually nothing to actually evade it would feel like making headshot in a shooter but getting a "miss" message because chance stat. It's have it's place is some games or some special mechanics within those but pretty much passive evade was the only thing fitting here.

Edit: also it's pretty strange one for a skill based game:) relating on a chance isn't really fun anyway but here it's a crown crates - combat edition so to say hehe.

SilverBride

Lysette wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

well, it is already broken anyway - like if you don't free Lyris, you will still encounter her on other quests, even she should not be able to. Or take the 3-faction war - which is just taking place in Cyrodiil, whereas outside of this region all is a multi-cultural mix where factions are just ignored - it just doesn't matter what faction I belong to in most places - even the story is about the war as well, but immersion is broken due to how this is handled.

The reason for this is because players didn't like the linear approach to questing. They enjoy being able to start in any zone, especially players new to the game who joined to play with friends who already completed a lot of the older content. Or players new to the game who want to experience the latest chapter with the rest of the playerbase. It's a catch 22 and the decision was made to do it this way.

But that is very different from making story quests repeatable. There are plenty of dailies for those who want to revisit completed zones. But turning overland into veteran level zones that give better rewards and are now repeatable turns overland into farming grounds for end game players who are bored with, or otherwise just don't want to run the established end game content, which is completely unfair to the rest of the playerbase.

Rudrani

You guys are asking for complicated stuff.

All I am asking for is

1) option to make my overland a vet instance

If that option is toggled on..

2) Multiple the stats of the hostile mobs by some number (maybe 10? 20? whatever the multiplier usually is for vet vs. norm)
3) Give better rewards as loot...

- chance for gold mats
- chance for transmutes
- chance for a skillpoint (or maybe new skyshards)
- slight chance for motifs and loot from the zone's dungeons and trials

Rudrani

[snip]


Instead of Vet Overland, Just Debuff (yourself or forced)

No one wants to be debuffed. We spent time and effort and love on doing the exact opposite - making our characters strong.
I spent 1.2mil on Gold Kinras so you can debuff me? Hellz naw. {{>.<}}

We want to be able to USE our efforts (our OP builds) in more interesting and less repetitive situations (overland) that have interesting and motivating rewards.

HEEEEnnnnCCCEEEeee
What we WaNnNnNT IiiiiIIIIiiSSSsssSSSS

- Zones will have vet instances that are opt-in
- The vet instances have better (end-gamey) rewards (got mats, transmutes, skill points, and a slight chance to find the loot you would find in the zones trials and dungeons)

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

Casdha

SilverBride wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, I love action games.

That is the kind of game you love. ESO isn't that kind of game.

You are correct but I believe the problem is that they started out trying to be, Why else would they use standard move, attack and evade controls from those types of games? They lured folks in with reactive combat controls then one of the first things to get changed was penalizing folks for dodging. They need to stop trying to mix turn base builds with reactionary combat and the more they try to fix it the more it gets broken.

ESO was never the kind of action game he described, which is more of a military let's snipe from the top of this hill and sneak up on the enemy camp from behind etc.. It was still story driven as it is today but had many flaws.

I guess you don't remember the one shot NB in Cyrodiil. (I guess in this game that would be called a ganker instead of a sniper) It was also fun back when you could draw your bow but not release until you wanted to take the shot and got a huge bonus from being in stealth. Anyways, People complained and it got changed.

As for a more difficult mode, that is simple:

1. Save your level 1 gear (or craft level 1 gear)
2. take your max CP character and remove all CP
3. Put on your level 1 gear
4. Use a table to make your level 1 gear look like anything you want from your collections (so no one else knows)
Now all of the mobs and bosses will be scaled to the level you are but your character is not.

Bonus difficulty - Go to the shrines and remove all attributes and skill points and only reassign the bare minimum
(edit - now that i think about it, stop repairing your gear would be almost as good)

You will still be able to kill most everything in overland but you will spend more time doing it and ya may have to think about tactics a bit more.

Side note: Ive actually played like this by accident after a force respec from an update.

SilverBride

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO was never the kind of action game he described, which is more of a military let's snipe from the top of this hill and sneak up on the enemy camp from behind etc.. It was still story driven as it is today but had many flaws.

I guess you don't remember the one shot NB in Cyrodiil. (I guess in this game that would be called a ganker instead of a sniper) It was also fun back when you could draw your bow but not release until you wanted to take the shot and got a huge bonus from being in stealth. Anyways, People complained and it got changed.

I don't PvP so I'm not familiar with that.

Casdha

SilverBride wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO was never the kind of action game he described, which is more of a military let's snipe from the top of this hill and sneak up on the enemy camp from behind etc.. It was still story driven as it is today but had many flaws.

I guess you don't remember the one shot NB in Cyrodiil. (I guess in this game that would be called a ganker instead of a sniper) It was also fun back when you could draw your bow but not release until you wanted to take the shot and got a huge bonus from being in stealth. Anyways, People complained and it got changed.

I don't PvP so I'm not familiar with that.

I haven't in a long time but it was so fun in the early days. Example: A person could sit on top of a keep and snipe away one shotting things on the ground but there was an easy counter just put that Templar skill (I think it was eclipse) which at the time reflected all range damage back to the caster/shooter and watch them kill themselves. Like I said in an earlier post, combat should play out like rock, paper, scissors when it comes to different builds.

edit: another good one from the early days of vampires and werewolves, Silver bolts (crossbow fighters guild skill) had I think a 10% chance of instant killing a werewolf or vampire,, it didn't matter how good or powerful or how much health they had.

SSX_Gryphon

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

3 - certain quest mechanics that persist so long as the quest is not completed could then be used to abuse other mechanics elsewhere, leading to potential cheesing of other vet areas (something that doesn't give so much of an edge at normal difficulty may give a greater edge at higher levels)

Which one should that be? Anyway, if you're deliberately diving into vet overland instances just to cheese some quest content, who cares? You could always do it on normal difficulty for the same rewards anyway. (No, I don't consider a blue Alexandra's Froststaff over a green one a different item).

It's more an open ended sort of thing to be honest. Unforseen circumstances. There's been many a project I've tinkered with in UE4 where you can change something seemingly innocuous and suddenly you're testing it and WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT.

I'm unsure about the rest of your comment, I don't know if you made an misconstrued assumption about the point I was making or if it was more to do with the playerbase view on items? Dunno, but it's not relevant to the point I was making and I doubt it was malicious - I don't know how to respond to it, sorry!

Chilly-McFreeze

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

3 - certain quest mechanics that persist so long as the quest is not completed could then be used to abuse other mechanics elsewhere, leading to potential cheesing of other vet areas (something that doesn't give so much of an edge at normal difficulty may give a greater edge at higher levels)

Which one should that be? Anyway, if you're deliberately diving into vet overland instances just to cheese some quest content, who cares? You could always do it on normal difficulty for the same rewards anyway. (No, I don't consider a blue Alexandra's Froststaff over a green one a different item).

It's more an open ended sort of thing to be honest. Unforseen circumstances. There's been many a project I've tinkered with in UE4 where you can change something seemingly innocuous and suddenly you're testing it and WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT.

I'm unsure about the rest of your comment, I don't know if you made an misconstrued assumption about the point I was making or if it was more to do with the playerbase view on items? Dunno, but it's not relevant to the point I was making and I doubt it was malicious - I don't know how to respond to it, sorry!

Sort of butterfly effect, you mean? Could happen, but with their heavy handed tinkering in other parts of the game I doubt that they care too much about that.

About the second part. It's likely I simply misunderstood you. I have read into your comment that something a quest gives you (e.g. a quest-lasting buff etc) can be used to exploit some other part of vet quest content.
So I interposed that that there is little reason and little reward to cheese vet overland as the rewards aren't overwhelming to begin with (+ I assumed that rewards only differ in rarity like in dungeons) AND you could always switch difficulty anyway.
But it seemed you meant something a bit different. So yes - I didn't wanted to offend.

Ratzkifal

I've been playing Genshin Impact lately and felt like the way they handle scaling is definitely something worth looking at for ideas.

Here is how it works:
In Genshin enemies do have levels independent from your character level and some areas are more difficult - higher leveled - than others, but at certain intervals the world level is increasing, scaling all enemies up to a higher level and adding new mechanics to old enemies but also increasing the quality and/or quantity of the dropped loot and making higher tier resources available in old spawn locations as well. This makes older/skipped content still relevant and not trivially easy by the time you come back to it.
Co-op in Genshin only allows people from higher world levels to downscale to the level of the lowest group member but you are also free to lower your own world level whenever you want for yourself. This allows people to choose their difficulty, which is also somewhat needed as the world level is tied to your adventure rank, which is always increasing in the background, kind of like CP, but unlike CP it doesn't come with any inherent power and so your characters could all end up being severely underleveled or undergeared which could lead to you soft-locking yourself if it weren't for the option to lower the world level.

What I think ESO can learn from this:
Introducing a world level allows for people who want a challenge from Overland to still get what they want without ruining the fun of people who are just here for the story. This also has the added bonus of letting people naturally progress towards the difficulty that veteran dungeons and trials bring, allowing people to limit-test sooner and improve their skills at the game. Greater rewards could be an incentive for players to up their world difficulty.
A system like this would probably require a separate phase for each world level for each zone, which could be a big hit to performance, but it could also be a big benefit to performance too as it spreads out the players more and from what I know, players clumping up in one place is the biggest contributor to lag.
In order for this to work seamlessly in ESO it would have to automatically adjust world level upon grouping up and zone chat should continue to not be phased so that new players can still get in touch with veterans for assistance.
How the rewards are handled is a big issue though as it shouldn't be punishing for a veteran player to help out a newer player, but it should also be worthwhile to increase the overworld difficulty.

Ronin37

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Basically, I love action games.

That is the kind of game you love. ESO isn't that kind of game.

You are correct but I believe the problem is that they started out trying to be, Why else would they use standard move, attack and evade controls from those types of games? They lured folks in with reactive combat controls then one of the first things to get changed was penalizing folks for dodging. They need to stop trying to mix turn base builds with reactionary combat and the more they try to fix it the more it gets broken.

ESO was never the kind of action game he described, which is more of a military let's snipe from the top of this hill and sneak up on the enemy camp from behind etc.. It was still story driven as it is today but had many flaws.

I guess you don't remember the one shot NB in Cyrodiil. (I guess in this game that would be called a ganker instead of a sniper) It was also fun back when you could draw your bow but not release until you wanted to take the shot and got a huge bonus from being in stealth. Anyways, People complained and it got changed.

As for a more difficult mode, that is simple:

1. Save your level 1 gear (or craft level 1 gear)
2. take your max CP character and remove all CP
3. Put on your level 1 gear
4. Use a table to make your level 1 gear look like anything you want from your collections (so no one else knows)
Now all of the mobs and bosses will be scaled to the level you are but your character is not.

Bonus difficulty - Go to the shrines and remove all attributes and skill points and only reassign the bare minimum
(edit - now that i think about it, stop repairing your gear would be almost as good)

You will still be able to kill most everything in overland but you will spend more time doing it and ya may have to think about tactics a bit more.

Side note: Ive actually played like this by accident after a force respec from an update.

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

SilverBride

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

Ronin37

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who do not enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was not implemented.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, however there are games out there where the Main Story Line is not just repeatable, it is repeatable under different conditions. Things like difficulty, rewards, story maps and boss characteristics are subject to change.

Diablo 2 is notorious for having these features and is an awesome game. And having this does not invalidate the story at all, I have no idea how one could come to such a conclusion.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

well, it is already broken anyway - like if you don't free Lyris, you will still encounter her on other quests, even she should not be able to. Or take the 3-faction war - which is just taking place in Cyrodiil, whereas outside of this region all is a multi-cultural mix where factions are just ignored - it just doesn't matter what faction I belong to in most places - even the story is about the war as well, but immersion is broken due to how this is handled.

The reason for this is because players didn't like the linear approach to questing. They enjoy being able to start in any zone, especially players new to the game who joined to play with friends who already completed a lot of the older content. Or players new to the game who want to experience the latest chapter with the rest of the playerbase. It's a catch 22 and the decision was made to do it this way.

But that is very different from making story quests repeatable. There are plenty of dailies for those who want to revisit completed zones. But turning overland into veteran level zones that give better rewards and are now repeatable turns overland into farming grounds for end game players who are bored with, or otherwise just don't want to run the established end game content, which is completely unfair to the rest of the playerbase.

This is why its better to let people choose for themselves. There's no difference whatsoever between someone going thru the Story again in like a Normal version vs Veteran version and them doing the same thing in a dungeon that has Normal and Vet difficulty.

I mean if you think about it, us already having Normal difficulty in PvE when there is a Vet version available, by that right alone, that is already unfair to those of us who run Vet. No difference here whatsoever and if people can choose what they feel they need to do for themselves you can't say its unfair as long as there's a choice.

SilverBride

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who do not enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was not implemented.

Those of us who are happy with overland as it is aren't trying to ruin the game for anyone. We aren't asking for any changes at all. We want overland to remain exactly as it is right now.

It's the minority, many of whom aren't actively playing the game and may not even if the requested change did happen, who are asking to change things. And this change would negatively affect way more players than leaving a successful game just as it is.

The problem isn't overland... it's some players' perceptions of overland. So logically a debuff and challenge banners are the only solutions that directly address the real issue and do not negatively affect other players.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.

Understanding is a 3 edged sword.

SilverBride

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.

Understanding is a 3 edged sword.

Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.

"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert

But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.

Edited to clarify.

spartaxoxo

Vulkunne wrote: »

This post is not intended for anyone in particular, however as I gracefully skip thru threads I keep s

SilverBride wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd surely like to repeat some content on my main...

Repeating story quests on the same character would completely break immersion, which is one of the main complaints some have stated they have with overland.

There is a lot of overland content, and it just keeps growing with every new chapter and DLC. It takes a long time to complete every quest in every zone and even longer if the player clears every map objective.

By the time someone with 18 alts has completely cleared these objectives there will soon be more new content to experience on all 18, as well a events.

There is no lack of content and no need to invalidate the story by making overland repeatable.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, however there are games out there where the Main Story Line is not just repeatable, it is repeatable under different conditions. Things like difficulty, rewards, story maps and boss characteristics are subject to change.

Diablo 2 is notorious for having these features and is an awesome game. And having this does not invalidate the story at all, I have no idea how one could come to such a conclusion.

Immersion is a totally individual thing and completely subjective. But repeatability is definitely something that kills immersion for significant number of people. I mean Diablo isn't known for it's story, though there are a sizable number of people who are really into it. It's moreso known for it's gameplay and aesthetic/atmosphere rather than the story. One of the top searches that came up when I googled the story (because despite having played the game, I couldn't tell ya anything about it's storyline) was "Does Diablo 3 have a story," so not exactly killing it on the story immersion front. The daily quests in this game also have some interesting characters you can meet, but doing them over and over kinda kill the immersion or memory of them, as you skip all the dialogue just to get to the killing and looting.

But again, immersion is entirely subjective.

I would personally expect that they'd continue to have merged for ones for the quest, and that's one reason why. And if they did have merged ones, that would mean they couldn't do the typical cosmetics/achievements route that normally do, which is why I think Rich mentioned how to incentivize it as an issue.

Ronin37

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.

Understanding is a 3 edged sword.

Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.

"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert

But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.

How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.

spartaxoxo

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.

Understanding is a 3 edged sword.

Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.

"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert

But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.

How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.

They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.

I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.

Ronin37

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ronin37 wrote: »

Or instead of gimping my char just make the game not the difficulty of tik tac to.

It is not fair to ruin the game for those of us who enjoy overland just as it is for a minority who may or may not even stick around if more difficulty was implemented.

I don't think this is a fair statement. You can't say we're a minority, especially if Rich said it was 'a lot of people' who wanted more difficulty. Secondly if we have a separate instance or we try something different, it may work out just fine however with these replies here it's like no matter what we suggest ... it will lead to ruining the game. That's not fair to say that either.

Understanding is a 3 edged sword.

Rich did say a lot of people like the harder difficulty, but he also said a HUGE amount don't. This clearly indicates that those who do not want harder difficulty are the majority.

"I get there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things." - Rich Lambert

But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would. That is why I and others have suggested and supported a debuff and challenge banners, so that this minority may find more enjoyment when they are in overland.

How about this, they tune the overland public dungeons to actually be in line with what the tool tip says. Because I can go into one with a new toon, no equipment and the weapon given and clear it. Those dungeons are not designed for four mans. That would at least be something then. And the I just want to read crowd can have there adventures while the rest of us can have a little something extra to not fall a sleep. PVE crowd gets a nugget and the fanatical casuals get the rest of the basket.

They are already starting to head that route, Blackwood's public dungeons (especially the group event boss) is a noticeable increase in difficulty from other ones. I don't know if they'll continue doing that, but it seems popular so I'd imagine they would.

I helped a few people at the group event boss in that one public dungeon, and the world event this time around is technically a public dungeon and seems pretty popular.

Blackwoods public dungeons are def not hard by any stretch. Craglorn's current public dungeons are where they should be tuned to, not the pre Craglorn debuff. Not kidding here.

Chilly-McFreeze

SilverBride wrote: »

But even a minority has a right to ask for change. But any future changes to the game should not negatively affect the rest of the playerbase, and mandatory or optional increased difficulty zones would.

An optional seperate instance wouldn't ruin it for you. According to your repeated dev statement "a huge amount" of people would remain in normal instances. So your newbies have enough people around if they should ever need help.

Does the existance of veteran dungeons and trials impact you negatively? If so, how?

And a word about the logic that a certain difficulty drives people off - you are right. Normal overland certainly drives me off from questing. I skipped so many content because it doesn't fit me. See, this goes both ways.