Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride

I find the overland content meaningful just as it is. It's the story, not dying to a pack of wolves, that makes it meaningful to me.

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback. However they have said that some players still find overland difficult, and that it needs to be easy enough so that everyone can do it.

World Bosses, Dungeon Bosses, Trial Bosses, etc. now have immune phases. There have been a lot of complaints over these because prolonged fights are not what most players want.

I am not opposed if they want to give players a debuff in one form or another, but I don't know if there is really that much interest in it.

[Edited to consolidate and clarify]

spartaxoxo

Theist_VII wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They do care what kind of game we want. This is one reason One Tamriel happened, and the game has been very successful because of it.

Kind of telling that you sourced a 2016 update as the last time any feedback had an answer…

I never said that One Tamriel was the last time feedback had an answer. I gave it as an example because it fits the topic of this thread. One Tamriel removed the veteran overland levels and it was very successful. Why would they bring them back now?

Yet the majority of people asking for meaningful combat in overland don’t ask for veteran levels returning as they were alt unfriendly.

That being said, I stop in this thread from time to time and have seen so many great alternatives and suggestions that would appease everyone, yet nothing. It’s radio silent, and there have been years between, with zero development towards a middle ground based on player feedback.

Honestly, they don't want to separate players as a hard line. But there have been a number of smaller solutions that don't require separation that they have refused to even comment on.

It's really frustrating and disheartening.

Pelanora

Dahveed wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Most people engaging in Overland content just want to quest or doing their dailies.
However, so many enemies are not being played at all because they can be skipped.
The dragging of enemies through overland or delves is already a thing and if you increase the difficulty more, it will just increase because running is faster than fighting.

In my own fantasy rainbow unicorn perfect version of an Elder Scrolls Online, 90 percent of all eNeMiEs (i.e. the 743 random things that all want to kill me for no reason) that exist in each zone would just disappear entirely, allowing me to explore in peace. But if I DID get randomly attacked by 3 or 4 cutthroat bandits out in the wilds, they would pose a significant threat to me and their sharp pointy objects slashing at my throat would make me bleed and possibly die. What I can't stand about most of these moderns games, especially MMOs, is that you are constantly besieged by massive armies of derpy, pathetic, endless hordes of worthless loot pinatas who never pose any threat whatsoever but are just there to annoy me and slow me down. It feels like such antiquated and mind-numbing game design at this point. You'd think after so many decades of this old RPG trope, they'd be able to break this pattern. But like I said, I'm just fantasizing at this point.


Here's dreaming...

I REALLY like this idea. Mostly I don't bother to stop for any of them, I leave them for Ember.

My favorite thing to watch these days is a clanfear running all the way after me, jumping on me, then waddling all the way back to where he came from. So funny.

maboleth

Dahveed wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Most people engaging in Overland content just want to quest or doing their dailies.
However, so many enemies are not being played at all because they can be skipped.
The dragging of enemies through overland or delves is already a thing and if you increase the difficulty more, it will just increase because running is faster than fighting.

I personally don't even care about the trash mobs, they can stay trash for all I care... Especially regarding their health pools, the last thing I would want is just a slog through a bunch of bullet sponges to make things just take longer.

The practical things which need to change are:

- Damage multipliers, especially from enemies (i.e., if I'm surrounded by 6 bandits all hacking away at my face with big sharp objects and/or hurling flaming balls of death out of magical staffs, it should hurt;
- resource recovery (especially health recovery) should be nerfed (i.e. I shouldn't passively regenerate health during combat faster than a giant troll can reduce it while he's mashing my brains into jelly with his massive arms);
- quest bosses should have at least enough health to last at least a decent minute in a fight, even if it's just to give the illusion that he was powerful.

In my own fantasy rainbow unicorn perfect version of an Elder Scrolls Online, 90 percent of all eNeMiEs (i.e. the 743 random things that all want to kill me for no reason) that exist in each zone would just disappear entirely, allowing me to explore in peace. But if I DID get randomly attacked by 3 or 4 cutthroat bandits out in the wilds, they would pose a significant threat to me and their sharp pointy objects slashing at my throat would make me bleed and possibly die. What I can't stand about most of these moderns games, especially MMOs, is that you are constantly besieged by massive armies of derpy, pathetic, endless hordes of worthless loot pinatas who never pose any threat whatsoever but are just there to annoy me and slow me down. It feels like such antiquated and mind-numbing game design at this point. You'd think after so many decades of this old RPG trope, they'd be able to break this pattern. But like I said, I'm just fantasizing at this point.

The bare minimum I would ask for is some kind of debuff slider I could apply to my alts, so that my level 1 scrub doesn't feel invincible out of the gate. It would be more fun to play just a regular Bosmer scout, trying to sneak around an enemy camp without being caught to complete a dangerous mission, knowing full well that if I'm detected, the arrows the 14 enemy soldiers will shoot through my neck would probably kill me, adding danger and suspense to the adventure. As it stands now, they detect me and pepper me with projectiles and a battery of swings with their swords, and there is no real consequence other than "oh darn, I guess I'll have to sprint away for 15 seconds or so until they reset." (And this, at levels 1-10 with no skills, no CP, and no gear to speak of... just me holding the sprint key in a straight line away from their camp.)

Here's dreaming...

Agree.
I don't even bother to pay attention who's attacking anymore. It's not just the hardness difficulty but the feeling that they are by_numbers. Whoever it is. It will respawn (very) soon, will die as trash mobs do. It's trivial and very annoying to keep on fighting.

This dilutes the story of the oh_so scary monsters that roam the wild. And when you see them it's just same ol' freaks with zero challenge or tedious spamming of your weapon of choice.

As you said, I'd rather have that random dude out of nowhere, where I don't know which skills he has, what stuff he's gonna use, than anything of the current state. Even Skyrim had those dudes that were challenging or at least came by surprise.

Muizer

What we expect of the game




How the game treats us

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

World Bosses, Dungeon Bosses, Trial Bosses, etc. now have immune phases. There have been a lot of complaints over these because prolonged fights are not what most players want.

Bosses have had immunity phases for a while, but they have been more the exception than the rule. With Gold Road, they seemed to expand on this policy.

Personally, my objection isn't that the fight is prolonged. For me, the fight takes as long as it takes. My objection is that it feels like immunity is being misused by the developers, and it feels more like cheating than challenging. It feels like "no, you aren't going to kill my boss, go fight these other things instead."

alpha_synuclein

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

World Bosses, Dungeon Bosses, Trial Bosses, etc. now have immune phases. There have been a lot of complaints over these because prolonged fights are not what most players want.

Bosses have had immunity phases for a while, but they have been more the exception than the rule. With Gold Road, they seemed to expand on this policy.

Personally, my objection isn't that the fight is prolonged. For me, the fight takes as long as it takes. My objection is that it feels like immunity is being misused by the developers, and it feels more like cheating than challenging. It feels like "no, you aren't going to kill my boss, go fight these other things instead."

This. I have nothing against long fights. I have a lot against fights that are artificially prolonged because noone has better idea for a filler than a wave of adds...

colossalvoids

Add waves would make sense in a game where those are supposed to be a break from a challenge and serve as a flask filler or a way to gain some buff stacks, but here it's a complete misuse. It's fair in dungeons or trials where some other mechanics kicks in and you should be focused of a different task but in overland it's their attempt to prolong the fights just for the sake of it. It feels just as bad as killing a boss in 2-3 slaps, probably even worse as prolonged fight served no purpose at all.

Eh, it's up to them how they want their game to be perceived but the gaming landscape changed heavily from 2015 and they would need to react in one form or the other, not by throwing bones no one asked for (BN) but for real this time if they still trying to be the game "for everyone". Or not, but just finally pick a desired audience and stick with them making some hopeful folks free at last from getting back here every year to see if the game finally moving.

Elsonso

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

World Bosses, Dungeon Bosses, Trial Bosses, etc. now have immune phases. There have been a lot of complaints over these because prolonged fights are not what most players want.

Bosses have had immunity phases for a while, but they have been more the exception than the rule. With Gold Road, they seemed to expand on this policy.

Personally, my objection isn't that the fight is prolonged. For me, the fight takes as long as it takes. My objection is that it feels like immunity is being misused by the developers, and it feels more like cheating than challenging. It feels like "no, you aren't going to kill my boss, go fight these other things instead."

This. I have nothing against long fights. I have a lot against fights that are artificially prolonged because noone has better idea for a filler than a wave of adds...

I can deal with waves of adds. My favorites adds are the ones that die when the boss dies so I don't have to deal with them.

It has been a few weeks, but I am now remembering that there is one boss that can actually do damage while invulnerable and the adds are running around. The developer vs player vibe is particularly strong in that boss. I am sure it is not intentional, and maybe it is a bug that has been fixed. If not, probably needs to be.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

...there is one boss that can actually do damage while invulnerable and the adds are running around.

Sounds like the group event boss, Viikor Brazen Hoof, in Sliorn. That boss is so difficult that it takes forever to find any players willing to help with it.

Well all the complaints about bosses dying too fast were heard. Now we are left with long fights with multiple invulnerable phases, and story boss fights that require repeated mechanics (abolisher) while the boss is invulnerable, and fights so hard that hardly anyone is doing them. Is this what was really wanted?

Would have been better to just give story bosses a hard mode scroll for those that wanted it rather than making it the same for everyone, and creating bosses that few are doing because the fights are too difficult, long and tedious.

TaSheen

Yeah, considering how hard I already found the quest story bosses, I won't be finishing zones any more. I managed (finally) to finish Blackwood (took me WAY too many tries), and just stopped right there. Slow reflexes (age-related) plus high-ping satellite "broadband" are a guarantee of dying way too often trying to get through story bosses.

Oh well. I have plenty of other things to do.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland. Bastion Nymics function nearly identically to dungeon content, which is not part of the overland discussion. The only real difference is the "kill four overland bosses" mechanic which doesn't integrate into overland aside from the fact that it happens to take place there. The rest of overland in the Telvanni Peninsula has the same challenge levels as any other zone in the game. It doesn't address the overland problem in any way.

What the aggrieved players in this thread want is to be given an option to enable a challenge in zone exploration content that feels satisfying, including the overland zones themselves as well as delves and public dungeons. Simple as that. No distractions, no alternative content which doesn't address the core issue. Just put the effort in to fix the problem we're all actually talking about, and ideally, listen to players when it comes to designing the solution.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland.

With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that.

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

Elsonso

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland. Bastion Nymics function nearly identically to dungeon content, which is not part of the overland discussion. The only real difference is the "kill four overland bosses" mechanic which doesn't integrate into overland aside from the fact that it happens to take place there. The rest of overland in the Telvanni Peninsula has the same challenge levels as any other zone in the game. It doesn't address the overland problem in any way.

ZOS has said that they do not want solutions. That is their job. They said so. From where I sit, harder overland content is a solution. To extend that thought, the "problem" is not that overland is too easy. That is merely a justification for the presented solution. All of the options presented in here to implement it are just different ways to approach the solution. The core problem seems to be that high skill level players are not adequately challenged by the content in the game. These players have presented the solution that this could be remedied by veteran or harder overland. ZOS has not picked that solution, as near as I can tell.

ZOS said that they want to put this harder content elsewhere. They said this years ago. Far enough back in time that Oblivion Portals, Bastion Nymic, and Infinite Archive sure look like responses. This year, the Gold Road bosses that people have been commenting on in other threads also seem to be ZOS addressing the need for better and more challenging content.

ellmarie

Yeah, with each DLC, I found the content of that land, bosses, etc has definitely been harder. Land has been more difficult to traverse and ride around even. I love the roaming bosses. I would like to see those even put in some of the older lands.

I like the questlines in some areas where when complete, the enemies don't attack anymore, so you can ride around without getting slowed down.

SilverBride

ellmarie wrote: »

Yeah, with each DLC, I found the content of that land, bosses, etc has definitely been harder.

The same with the Public Dungeon group events.

I used to do every boss on every character to complete the zone map but since Necrom I just let most of them complete by running within range and don't bother with fighting them any more. I did do some in West Weald for the scripts but once I got what I needed I stopped bothering with them. The difficulty and long fights and immune phases pulled all the fun out of them.

disky

Elsonso wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland. Bastion Nymics function nearly identically to dungeon content, which is not part of the overland discussion. The only real difference is the "kill four overland bosses" mechanic which doesn't integrate into overland aside from the fact that it happens to take place there. The rest of overland in the Telvanni Peninsula has the same challenge levels as any other zone in the game. It doesn't address the overland problem in any way.

ZOS has said that they do not want solutions. That is their job. They said so. From where I sit, harder overland content is a solution. To extend that thought, the "problem" is not that overland is too easy. That is merely a justification for the presented solution. All of the options presented in here to implement it are just different ways to approach the solution. The core problem seems to be that high skill level players are not adequately challenged by the content in the game. These players have presented the solution that this could be remedied by veteran or harder overland. ZOS has not picked that solution, as near as I can tell.

ZOS said that they want to put this harder content elsewhere. They said this years ago. Far enough back in time that Oblivion Portals, Bastion Nymic, and Infinite Archive sure look like responses. This year, the Gold Road bosses that people have been commenting on in other threads also seem to be ZOS addressing the need for better and more challenging content.

To be clear, I am not asking for harder overland content. I am asking for the option to increase the challenge in overland content. I accept that there are people who want things to remain as they are and that's fine, this is an MMO and my opinion is not shared by everyone. Increasing the challenge for everyone is a mistake and will lead to complaints from people who enjoy the game as it is. ZOS simply needs to provide a way for people who want a more challenging overland game to increase the challenge for their own characters, yet they act as if this is an insurmountable task. It isn't.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland.

With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that.

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

I don't care about what any representative has said regarding this, because what this says to me is "We hear you, and we did something completely outside of what you asked for [snip]."

If this is the message, then it's a bad message.

[edited for bashing]

SilverBride

ZoS has made their stand very clear multiple times. Some players may not be happy about the things that have been done, but they did hear players and they did do something to address it.

I personally think they overdid the difficulty with World Bosses and now Public Dungeon group events, but I just don't do them any more, and rather spend time on the parts of the game I do enjoy. Because I feel they are doing what they think is right for THEIR game.

colossalvoids

Their intentions doesn't matter when the result is null.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

ZoS has made their stand very clear multiple times. Some players may not be happy about the things that have been done, but they did hear players and they did do something to address it.

No, they didn't. They didn't address it. That's the problem. They looked at the issue and then decided to swerve left and create a different kind of content which has nothing to do with overland, so it should come as no surprise that people are still asking for the problem to be addressed.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ZoS has made their stand very clear multiple times. Some players may not be happy about the things that have been done, but they did hear players and they did do something to address it.

No, they didn't. They didn't address it. That's the problem. They looked at the issue and then decided to swerve left and create a different kind of content which has nothing to do with overland, so it should come as no surprise that people are still asking for the problem to be addressed.

They said the will not be making a separate vet overland on more than one occasion. They also stated outright Bastian Nymic is supposed to be in one answer. And they implied the same about Infinite Archive. It's pretty clear that they hear "separate instance" and was like "Well I heard you like instances..." And completely missed the mark. But, they have stated that they aren't doing a vet version of overland.

There are other suggestions they have ignored though.

spartaxoxo

Okay, now that the address issue is stated. I want to say that while the developers have addressed the issue, their answers have been completely tone deaf.

They haven't addressed any of the concerns that vet players are complaining about. And instead did the one thing that we asked them not to do which was make a solution that makes stuff harder for everyone. The result is that casuals have less stuff to do because the world bosses and the like are annoying for them now. But, none of the vet player concerns were heard, so they still have no reason to go overland.

We didn't want immunity phase on world boss fights? We didn't want an endless arena or a glorified extra dungeon. We wanted a compelling story that actually gives us a reason to use the overland. World bosses and the like don't satisfy that.

SilverBride

There is a lot of truth in the old adage “Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it”.

Players asked for Account Wide Achievements and we got them, but not the way many had envisioned them.

Players complained that bosses were too easy and died too fast and now we have immunity phases on almost every type of boss out there, and World Bosses that are so difficult that many of us just stopped fighting them.

When we give feedback we don't get to say how it will be responded to and we are not guaranteed that any solution will be how we envisioned it.

spartaxoxo

But we do get to point out when we don't like the design. And if nobody really likes how they implemented something, that is on the designers of the game, not player requests.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a lot of truth in the old adage “Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it”.

This is a surprisingly common refrain which holds no value in the discussion. In our context, what this appears to say is "don't expect or ask for progress, be happy that you've gotten anything at all". We are paying customers who expect a satisfactory product. If the provider doesn't deliver a satisfactory product, they stop receiving money from dissatisfied customers. This forum provides an opportunity to voice concerns and make requests, and so here we are, requesting progress and changes which suit us in the hope that things improve. If most of the people on this forum followed that adage, the forum wouldn't exist.

If we all just shut our mouths and smiled, I believe progress would stagnate, and I think at least some developers would agree. We may not always get exactly what we want, but some progress is better than nothing, and we have to have a discussion in order for that to happen.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

When we give feedback we don't get to say how it will be responded to and we are not guaranteed that any solution will be how we envisioned it.

This thread is about overland. That means questing and, above all, exploration. Fans of the series expect Tamriel to be a dangerous place once you leave the roads. In ESO, Tamriel is a caricature of a dangerous place. That is what this thread is about. That is what I think most posters here want ZOS to address and in a way that feels true to that ES experience.

Elsonso

.

disky wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

They gave us Bastion Nymics as one answer to overland difficulty, so they are hearing the feedback.

I will never accept this as a valid counterpoint. Bastion Nymics are not the kind of content that anyone is referring to when they discuss the inadequacies of overland. Bastion Nymics function nearly identically to dungeon content, which is not part of the overland discussion. The only real difference is the "kill four overland bosses" mechanic which doesn't integrate into overland aside from the fact that it happens to take place there. The rest of overland in the Telvanni Peninsula has the same challenge levels as any other zone in the game. It doesn't address the overland problem in any way.

ZOS has said that they do not want solutions. That is their job. They said so. From where I sit, harder overland content is a solution. To extend that thought, the "problem" is not that overland is too easy. That is merely a justification for the presented solution. All of the options presented in here to implement it are just different ways to approach the solution. The core problem seems to be that high skill level players are not adequately challenged by the content in the game. These players have presented the solution that this could be remedied by veteran or harder overland. ZOS has not picked that solution, as near as I can tell.

ZOS said that they want to put this harder content elsewhere. They said this years ago. Far enough back in time that Oblivion Portals, Bastion Nymic, and Infinite Archive sure look like responses. This year, the Gold Road bosses that people have been commenting on in other threads also seem to be ZOS addressing the need for better and more challenging content.

To be clear, I am not asking for harder overland content. I am asking for the option to increase the challenge in overland content. I accept that there are people who want things to remain as they are and that's fine, this is an MMO and my opinion is not shared by everyone. Increasing the challenge for everyone is a mistake and will lead to complaints from people who enjoy the game as it is. ZOS simply needs to provide a way for people who want a more challenging overland game to increase the challenge for their own characters, yet they act as if this is an insurmountable task. It isn't.

You are just suggesting an option for implementing the player suggested solution. I am suggesting that the devs are not interested in that solution to the problem, and that would extend to options for how to implement it. Content delivered starting in Blackwood seems to back up this observation. Obviously, we don't know what is coming in 2025 and beyond.

Maybe it is time for a new player idea that is more in line with what ZOS is doing? I don't believe that this thread is kept open so that the developers can get player suggestions, but to see if the suggestions may distill down to reveal additional aspects of the problem. Clearly, they are not currently heading in the "challenging overland" direction, and that does not seem to be changing, so maybe it is time to address what they are doing?

Maybe it is time to return to "adventure zones" delivered as the zone DLC or chapter.

SilverBride

I'm not saying players shouldn't make suggestions. But when there are repeated complaints that the story bosses die too fast and they die before they complete their dialogue etc... well now they don't.

disky

Elsonso wrote: »

Clearly, they are not currently heading in the "challenging overland" direction, and that does not seem to be changing, so maybe it is time to address what they are doing?

Maybe it is time to return to "adventure zones" delivered as the zone DLC or chapter.

They only ever implemented one Adventure Zone (Craglorn) and that was eventually changed to match the rest of the game in difficulty, so I don't see how this could be understood to be "something they are doing". Nor would I want that - I want every zone to feel satisfying to explore. And if they did decide to bring back the adventure zone concept then they might as well just create dungeons instead because that idea holds exactly as much value as more dungeons would. Just like Bastion Nymic, it completely misses the entire point of why I'm here, and I'm not ever going to consider any alternative content as an acceptable solution.

As far as I'm concerned, if ZOS doesn't implement a way to increase overland challenge then they don't get more money from me, and I want to keep giving them money. If I didn't then I wouldn't be here.