Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

And as has been stated many times over the years of this thread, the game didn't struggle because of difficulty.

The developers have explicitly stated otherwise. I also found it pretty easy to find complaints back then about the difficulty. Unlike the participants in this thread, including myself, those are neutral sources.

Franchise408 wrote: »

I'm suggesting that people who state their reason for needing easy difficulty are because of bad Internet connections and inability to push the buttons needed to play the game are the demographic that should not be balanced around..

Yes. Because the entire genre can't have a single game balanced around them. Even though it has had one now for years.

Franchise408 wrote: »

If playing a particular type of game presents that much of a challenge for you, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the types of games you're playing instead of demanding they be dumbed down for you.

I mean, in this case, you're the one asking for a change. And evidently, the stance is that it's not good enough that options be given. But that the game's current balance should also be taken away from the audience they've cultivated for the past...what, 9 years? I think it's pretty demanding argument to say the billionaire dollar successful game shouldn't be balanced the way it is because it doesn't suit someone's tastes. Regardless if it's a difficult game or an easy one. And to extrapolate that to an entire genre of games??? I don't need an entire genre of games to cater to me. I can't even play a whole genre.

I'm in favor of asking for difficulty options. I disagree with demanding the game, as it already exists and has for years, also be taken away from others. I've never agreed with a forced difficulty change. I do think they should have given us an optional way to increase the difficulty by now. Their single player games have them. Those are as easy or as hard as you want them to be.

Note: quoted comment has been snipped for brevity. Use >> to see whole thing.

Franchise408

I've been around this game way too long and have seen them misunderstand and misrepresent data points and what it means for the game way too many times to lend any credibility to their stated interpretation.

At this point, I'm not asking for a change. I'm stating my opinion on the state of the game as it exists now. It is not going to be changed at this point, I don't expect it to, and I'm not holding out any hope for it. I believe that the game never should have been balanced for the low skilled players from the get go, and it originally was not designed for that in the first place. It was later changed to make it accessible for all players with little to no effort and zero challenge or obstacle to have to overcome. So the game was actually already taken away from me once already, but I'm wrong for having an opinion on that.

I have 0 expectation of any change coming, and at this point I am making 0 requests. I am stating my opinion on the current state of things as someone who has a heavy emotional investment in the IP, and a significant time and financial investment in ESO. ZOS can take that information - if they are actually even looking at this thread in any capacity - and determine what to do with that information. As it stands, they have already decided that they don't need my business, I am not the player they want, and they can be and have been successful without me. Therefore, the game as it stands, it is no longer for me, and I will and have moved on to games that provide a much more preferable experience.

disky

Franchise408 wrote: »

ESO has a built in audience that would make the game a success regardless of the difficulty. The game's early struggles were design problems.

I don't speak for ZOS but I would bet that they have access to data which informs them about how many people have played previous TES games at different difficulty levels, in addition to data which tells them about how people play ESO. I'm sure they know that it's better (read: more profitable) to provide support for everyone who wishes to play than a more narrow, high-skill audience. Modern TES is built to enable players who want a more casual, story-focused experience and demanding that the challenge be adjusted for every player is not a viable tactic if you're expecting any actual change. It will never happen.

I am curious though - why does it matter? Why do you prefer this method over receiving the option to change the difficulty only for yourself?

Franchise408 wrote: »

If playing a particular type of game presents that much of a challenge for you, perhaps you should be re-evaluating the types of games you're playing instead of demanding they be dumbed down for you.

But they like to play this kind of game. People don't always play games because they want to be the best at them. TES provides an opportunity to immerse oneself in another world, it's not just about racing through content to defeat the big bad. Surely you can understand why story-focused players, players of lower skill or diminished ability would want this. ESO provides that for them.

Franchise408 wrote: »

As an enthusiast for Elder Scrolls games, it's sad to see the core foundation of the game relegated to such a state as we see ESO's overland. The portion of the game that might give me an Elder Scrolls type of experience is a complete non-starter to me because of its poor design.

TES has had difficulty settings since Morrowind. Players have been able to adjust the difficulty and play at a lower level in TES games for over 20 years. There's no basis for the notion that TES is meant to be challenging because we've had options for decades.

When I play TES games, I set them to max and mod them to be even harder, but I understand that this is not the "intended" difficulty because that doesn't exist, it's just what I personally find satisfying. Overland is an extension of what the single-player TES experience always was, so I see no reason why this idea shouldn't be made available. Again, we are not competing in overland.

SilverBride

Those that enjoy a casual questing experience aren't necessarily low skilled. I love that I can enjoy the story and not struggle through mobs as I do so, and feel like I'm the strong hero they tell me I am. But I also like challenges and have done every type of content except veteran trials, which I will some day.

I have played other MMOs and easy overland has been the norm so this is not unusual. I don't know why we would expect ESO to be different.

Dahveed

SilverBride wrote: »

Those that enjoy a casual questing experience aren't necessarily low skilled. I love that I can enjoy the story and not struggle through mobs as I do so, and feel like I'm the strong hero they tell me I am. But I also like challenges and have done every type of content except veteran trials, which I will some day.

I have played other MMOs and easy overland has been the norm so this is not unusual. I don't know why we would expect ESO to be different.

Other MMOs have had similar struggles among a significant chunk of the players too, though. The most famous example is World of Warcraft where a large chunk of players absolutely hated what WoW became after Cataclysm (or thereabouts) and wanted greater challenge/retro gameplay/Vanilla.

And a lot of people know that story. The now infamous "you think you do, but you don't" line from that guy on stage who was mercilessly torn to shreds on the internet, the subsequent admission of error, and the massively successful re-release of Vanilla WoW that everyone said couldn't be done and wouldn't work. Well it was, and it did.

I'll of course grant that had more to do with just difficulty alone, but that was a good chunk of it. People pined for the old days of slower leveling, a more vibrant and dangerous world to travel and quest in, and more meaningful and impactful choices in their leveling process (i.e. what's the point of upgrading my gear if I'm invincible anyways?).

I wouldn't ask for the same thing for ESO (i.e. "go back to vanilla" or whatever), but I AM asking for an optional slider which would make the overland zones less predictable and more challenging, and actually give me a reason to roll an alt. As it stands now, I only ever roll on my main, and haven't leveled any alts (except one for the DB and TG sneaky stuff) beyond level 8 because it's an absolute atrocity of a video game where nothing can ever possibly defeat me and everything is marked with a giant white arrow telling me exactly what to do and where to go at all times. It's tedious.

I think if ZoS were to make this "slider" happen in a meaningful way, with enough fanfare (they could market it as "Tamriel Reborn" or something, I dunno... And as I suggested before even put a voiced quest chain behind it, which they are REALLY good at), I truly believe it would be a major success and give people a new reason to make alts, and give people like Franchise408 (I believe there are more of them out there than you think) to come back again.

And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". I never interact with anyone. EVER. But if there were a challenge out there, I might actually need to join a group to overcome it. I'd be willing to bet new guilds would pop up with "hard mode" players only, which I would happily join... which would UNsplit me from the "player base" for the first time literally ever.

Franchise408

Dahveed wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Those that enjoy a casual questing experience aren't necessarily low skilled. I love that I can enjoy the story and not struggle through mobs as I do so, and feel like I'm the strong hero they tell me I am. But I also like challenges and have done every type of content except veteran trials, which I will some day.

I have played other MMOs and easy overland has been the norm so this is not unusual. I don't know why we would expect ESO to be different.

Other MMOs have had similar struggles among a significant chunk of the players too, though. The most famous example is World of Warcraft where a large chunk of players absolutely hated what WoW became after Cataclysm (or thereabouts) and wanted greater challenge/retro gameplay/Vanilla.

And a lot of people know that story. The now infamous "you think you do, but you don't" line from that guy on stage who was mercilessly torn to shreds on the internet, the subsequent admission of error, and the massively successful re-release of Vanilla WoW that everyone said couldn't be done and wouldn't work. Well it was, and it did.

I'll of course grant that had more to do with just difficulty alone, but that was a good chunk of it. People pined for the old days of slower leveling, a more vibrant and dangerous world to travel and quest in, and more meaningful and impactful choices in their leveling process (i.e. what's the point of upgrading my gear if I'm invincible anyways?).

I wouldn't ask for the same thing for ESO (i.e. "go back to vanilla" or whatever), but I AM asking for an optional slider which would make the overland zones less predictable and more challenging, and actually give me a reason to roll an alt. As it stands now, I only ever roll on my main, and haven't leveled any alts (except one for the DB and TG sneaky stuff) beyond level 8 because it's an absolute atrocity of a video game where nothing can ever possibly defeat me and everything is marked with a giant white arrow telling me exactly what to do and where to go at all times. It's tedious.

I think if ZoS were to make this "slider" happen in a meaningful way, with enough fanfare (they could market it as "Tamriel Reborn" or something, I dunno... And as I suggested before even put a voiced quest chain behind it, which they are REALLY good at), I truly believe it would be a major success and give people a new reason to make alts, and give people like Franchise408 (I believe there are more of them out there than you think) to come back again.

And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". I never interact with anyone. EVER. But if there were a challenge out there, I might actually need to join a group to overcome it. I'd be willing to bet new guilds would pop up with "hard mode" players only, which I would happily join... which would UNsplit me from the "player base" for the first time literally ever.

I'm currently playing EverQuest as my main game, on the new TLP servers. One of the 2 new servers is the single most populated server EverQuest has ever had. For those not in the know, TLP servers are servers that start back at the original version of EQ, similar to WoW Classic.

While New World hasn't really had much in the way of strong populations, one of the things that it has been praised for is its combat system, which is very reminiscent of ESO, but has mobs that actually present challenge and require tactics to defeat. The game is still very much relaxed and accessible for more casual players, but at least still takes brain power beyond "clinically braindead" to complete.

You can actually have challenge in the game without driving away even the casual players.

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

You can actually have challenge in the game without driving away even the casual players.

21 million players and 2 billion dollars. This game is already successful.

I don't think we get difficulty sliders by insulting the players that enjoy it or claiming they don't know what they are doing. They have very clearly found an audience that enjoys a relaxed gaming experience.

There can be both relaxing and challenging games on the market. Even better when those games provide difficulty options. I personally would love a difficulty slider that didn't split the playerbase.

Dahveed wrote: »

And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". .

A separate instance would split the players who are using overland. Players who enjoy story content are the vast majority of the playerbase. That's who the developers are worried about splitting. Player separation was one of the most complained about things that nearly killed this game. Given how much more they talk about it, I'd wager it was the biggest factor. So, it is a legitimate concern that a solution needs to factor in imo.

Franchise408

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

You can actually have challenge in the game without driving away even the casual players.

21 million players and 2 billion dollars. This game is already successful.

I don't think we get difficulty sliders by insulting the players that enjoy it or claiming they don't know what they are doing. They have very clearly found an audience that enjoys a relaxed gaming experience.

There can be both relaxing and challenging games on the market. Even better when those games provide difficulty options. I personally would love a difficulty slider that didn't split the playerbase.

Dahveed wrote: »

And I will once again repeat that NONE of this will in any ways "split" the playerbase, because the people who do solo content like myself are already "split". .

A separate instance would split the players who are using overland. Players who enjoy story content are the vast majority of the playerbase. That's who the developers are worried about splitting. Player separation was one of the most complained about things that nearly killed this game. Given how much more they talk about it, I'd wager it was the biggest factor. So, it is a legitimate concern that a solution needs to factor in imo.

How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?

As is, overland is so braindead easy that grouping is not a thing. So players who are out questing aren't doing it alongside other players. The playerbase is effectively split already. The players who are seeking a challenge aren't out in the overland, they are with their guilds doing dungeons and trials. The playerbase is effectively split already.

Providing veteran overland instances can't split the playerbase - these people are already not playing together as it is. I will not be playing with players who are playing in overland. If there are no vet instances of overland, I simply am not engaging with overland. So despite the protests of splitting the playerbase, I am not playing with these players anyways.

A vet instance overland by definition cannot split the playerbase in the way is being feared, because these are completely different demographics of players who already aren't playing together and are already effectively "split". Anything else is just insisting that I be available for your own personal gametime desires, and I'm not here to be at the beck and call of other players.

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?

Because they are already playing together. The vast majority of the playerbase is already using overland. They have been very clear about that. They explicitly stated the vast majority enjoy the story and exploration.

There's plenty of people who use the overland as it is, but would use a more difficult version if it was available. I know people who only do the story one time because they find the difficulty level a snooze. Or rush alts through it just for the skill point. I am one of them. I use overland. But, I also would like more difficulty. Many of us are NOT already split and the devs know that. That's who they are concerned about splitting off from new users NOT people who aren't even there.

Franchise408

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?

Because they are already playing together. The vast majority of the playerbase is already using overland. They have been very clear about that. They explicitly stated the vast majority enjoy the story and exploration.

There's plenty of people who use the overland as it is, but would use a more difficult version if it was available. I know people who only do the story one time because they find the difficulty level a snooze. Or rush alts through it just for the skill point. I am one of them. I use overland. But, I also would like more difficulty. Many of us are NOT already split and the devs know that. That's who they are concerned about splitting off from new users NOT people who aren't even there.

But the thing is, even if people are playing overland, they aren't doing it *together*, and that's the whole point of the "split the playerbase" argument. They are doing it solo and not working alongside other players to complete the quests. For the small handful that are, they can still do that in whichever instance they choose to do it in, but the vast majority of players aren't doing questing content with other players. So splitting the playerbase is a complete non-factor.

SilverBride

Franchise408 wrote: »

But the thing is, even if people are playing overland, they aren't doing it *together*, and that's the whole point of the "split the playerbase" argument. They are doing it solo and not working alongside other players to complete the quests. For the small handful that are, they can still do that in whichever instance they choose to do it in, but the vast majority of players aren't doing questing content with other players. So splitting the playerbase is a complete non-factor.

Players are doing it together. While I do quest alone, so I can enjoy the story my own way, I often stop to group with others for World Bosses and Incursions, etc.. When someone calls out that they spotted the Wandering World Boss a lot of players show up and work together to bring him down.

If part of the playerbase were in normal overland and part in veteran overland, these groups forming for the challenging objectives would be a lot smaller, so it would definitely be splitting the playerbase and have a negative effect.

spartaxoxo

Franchise408 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

How can a playerbase that already isn't playing together be split by instances?

Because they are already playing together. The vast majority of the playerbase is already using overland. They have been very clear about that. They explicitly stated the vast majority enjoy the story and exploration.

There's plenty of people who use the overland as it is, but would use a more difficult version if it was available. I know people who only do the story one time because they find the difficulty level a snooze. Or rush alts through it just for the skill point. I am one of them. I use overland. But, I also would like more difficulty. Many of us are NOT already split and the devs know that. That's who they are concerned about splitting off from new users NOT people who aren't even there.

But the thing is, even if people are playing overland, they aren't doing it *together*, and that's the whole point of the "split the playerbase" argument. They are doing it solo and not working alongside other players to complete the quests. For the small handful that are, they can still do that in whichever instance they choose to do it in, but the vast majority of players aren't doing questing content with other players. So splitting the playerbase is a complete non-factor.

When I am doing quests, I stop and answer questions, help with world bosses and public dungeons, etc. Many of these players ARE working together. That's the whole reason they don't want to split them up. Not to mention a new player shouldn't get the impression the game is dead because they don't see people running around doing stuff.

spartaxoxo

The reasons they have given us as to why they aren't doing it must address these concerns because these are the reasons the devs won't do it. At least if I remember correctly over the years.

1) Don't want players quitting because they find game suddenly too difficult.

2) Don't want to split the playerbase

3) Don't want to do a separate instance because Cadwell Silver and Gold failed.

4) Too much work for old content

5) Don't know how to add rewards

Any solution needs to be easy to implement, not split players, and allow them to add rewards without messing with the existing reward structure.

This is why I support a slider and always have. It addresses all of those concerns. The LOTRO developers had originally wanted to make a separate more difficult server but found it to too much work. They stated a slider was like cheating in terms of work and resources. I don't know too much about game development, but that sounds like it's less effort to me.

A slider can be incentivized because you can just have the person gain more coin or whatever. And having a slider means the rewards can be separate from quest completion, which means no messing with the existing reward structure.

A slider allowed players who are using it and not using it to remain together.

And it is an entirely different concept to Cadwell.

Slider is entirely optional and doesn't effect the other players, so they have no reason to quit like they would if difficulty was forced on them.

Finally, it's something that fits the Elder Scrolls Universe because it's a standard part of their single player games. They didn't state this but I feel it's a benefit since they talk a lot about wanting to embrace the single player games and don't like using the word MMO to describe their game.

I don't want this thread to backslide back into

Devs: We know y'all want more difficulty, I like more difficult things myself. But we can't do a separate instance for several reasons
Players: It's a separate instance or nothing.
Devs: Okay, nothing
Players: 😮

Because that's what it's been for a long time now. I'd like to move forward from that.

They have never commented on sliders in a way that demonstrates understanding of the suggestion. And CredibleJoe recent suggestion also has not been commented on, and is a good hybrid. We also have a recent suggestion of using scribing system for it. Scribing might be the most realistic because they already laid the groundwork for it. IDK. And Scribing also solves the reward issue because it can remain kill mobs while using scribed skills or whatever.

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

It's just not necessary. The whole separation argument smacks of classism, as if the skilled and the not-skilled must exist on different evolutionary tiers. As if the player gains a sense of self-worth from their choice of ESO server. If there's a sensible reason for it I'd love to hear it but I've never actually received a cogent justification.

SilverBride

I feel I need to reinforce that this is not an issue of skilled or non-skilled. MANY that enjoy overland just as it is ARE skilled. I worked to develop my characters and I hold my own in any group content I take part in. I just enjoy a relaxed questing experience.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

It's just not necessary. The whole separation argument smacks of classism, as if the skilled and the not-skilled must exist on different evolutionary tiers. As if the player gains a sense of self-worth from their choice of ESO server. If there's a sensible reason for it I'd love to hear it but I've never actually received a cogent justification.

While I think some want it for elitist reasons, I think a lot of them just want a separate one because they think the devs will maintain two different versions of the game. So, they'll add a lot of new mechanics. I don't think that's particularly likely but I can certainly see the appeal. I'd settle for a few new attacks from a small amount of adds, ala Lotro's slider, and IA personally.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

I feel I need to reinforce that this is not an issue of skilled or non-skilled. MANY that enjoy overland just as it is ARE skilled. I worked to develop my characters and I hold my own in any group content I take part in. I just enjoy a relaxed questing experience.

If you've been responding to my posts when I mention skilled, non-skilled, or whatever, please understand that I'm speaking about them in the context of the opposing opinion, as if they believe Skilled and Other to be separate. I don't care about the type of player that plays the game, as I hope my recent posts attest.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

It's just not necessary. The whole separation argument smacks of classism, as if the skilled and the not-skilled must exist on different evolutionary tiers. As if the player gains a sense of self-worth from their choice of ESO server. If there's a sensible reason for it I'd love to hear it but I've never actually received a cogent justification.

While I think some want it for elitist reasons, I think a lot of them just want a separate one because they think the devs will maintain two different versions of the game. So, they'll add a lot of new mechanics. I don't think that's particularly likely but I can certainly see the appeal. I'd settle for a few new attacks from a small amount of adds, ala Lotro's slider, and IA personally.

Yeah, any kind of additional effort like new behaviors is just never going to happen if the idea is to lock them away for a fraction of the community.

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reasons they have given us as to why they aren't doing it must address these concerns because these are the reasons the devs won't do it. At least if I remember correctly over the years.

1) Don't want players quitting because they find game suddenly too difficult.

2) Don't want to split the playerbase

3) Don't want to do a separate instance because Cadwell Silver and Gold failed.

4) Too much work for old content

5) Don't know how to add rewards

Any solution needs to be easy to implement, not split players, and allow them to add rewards without messing with the existing reward structure.

This is why I support a slider and always have. It addresses all of those concerns. The LOTRO developers had originally wanted to make a separate more difficult server but found it to too much work. They stated a slider was like cheating in terms of work and resources. I don't know too much about game development, but that sounds like it's less effort to me.

A slider can be incentivized because you can just have the person gain more coin or whatever. And having a slider means the rewards can be separate from quest completion, which means no messing with the existing reward structure.

A slider allowed players who are using it and not using it to remain together.

And it is an entirely different concept to Cadwell.

Slider is entirely optional and doesn't effect the other players, so they have no reason to quit like they would if difficulty was forced on them.

Finally, it's something that fits the Elder Scrolls Universe because it's a standard part of their single player games. They didn't state this but I feel it's a benefit since they talk a lot about wanting to embrace the single player games and don't like using the word MMO to describe their game.

I don't want this thread to backslide back into

Devs: We know y'all want more difficulty, I like more difficult things myself. But we can't do a separate instance for several reasons
Players: It's a separate instance or nothing.
Devs: Okay, nothing
Players: 😮

Because that's what it's been for a long time now. I'd like to move forward from that.

They have never commented on sliders in a way that demonstrates understanding of the suggestion. And CredibleJoe recent suggestion also has not been commented on, and is a good hybrid. We also have a recent suggestion of using scribing system for it. Scribing might be the most realistic because they already laid the groundwork for it. IDK. And Scribing also solves the reward issue because it can remain kill mobs while using scribed skills or whatever.

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

To be objective it’s irrelevant whichever ideas in this thread gain the most support at this point I doubt you can count even 40 players who keep up with discussion if the concerns about overland difficulty ever to be addressed it’s most likely would be entirely different implementation to the suggestions listed there.

I was really hopeful at first myself that this is going to be something really significant after all the complains. But considering that discussions about overland difficulty started way back before creation of this thread 3 years ago and there’s still barely any response from developers and not a single positive one I’ve started to doubt if there even going to be anything addressed about it at all.

Personally, I gradually moving on from ESO as suggested by posters on the very first pages. There are so many good challenging games released or going to be released which is far more enjoyable and engaging. Logging in ESO this year for me was mostly a chore, doing endeavors and getting event tickets as fast as I can then logging off. I can’t deny leveling and playing arcanist, primarily in pvp, then doing endless archive achievements grind was great fun. Yet it’s only a small portion of new content as main chapters was total slog making me question why I even spent my real money on them instead of just skipping them entirely.

Franchise408

tonyblack wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The reasons they have given us as to why they aren't doing it must address these concerns because these are the reasons the devs won't do it. At least if I remember correctly over the years.

1) Don't want players quitting because they find game suddenly too difficult.

2) Don't want to split the playerbase

3) Don't want to do a separate instance because Cadwell Silver and Gold failed.

4) Too much work for old content

5) Don't know how to add rewards

Any solution needs to be easy to implement, not split players, and allow them to add rewards without messing with the existing reward structure.

This is why I support a slider and always have. It addresses all of those concerns. The LOTRO developers had originally wanted to make a separate more difficult server but found it to too much work. They stated a slider was like cheating in terms of work and resources. I don't know too much about game development, but that sounds like it's less effort to me.

A slider can be incentivized because you can just have the person gain more coin or whatever. And having a slider means the rewards can be separate from quest completion, which means no messing with the existing reward structure.

A slider allowed players who are using it and not using it to remain together.

And it is an entirely different concept to Cadwell.

Slider is entirely optional and doesn't effect the other players, so they have no reason to quit like they would if difficulty was forced on them.

Finally, it's something that fits the Elder Scrolls Universe because it's a standard part of their single player games. They didn't state this but I feel it's a benefit since they talk a lot about wanting to embrace the single player games and don't like using the word MMO to describe their game.

I don't want this thread to backslide back into

Devs: We know y'all want more difficulty, I like more difficult things myself. But we can't do a separate instance for several reasons
Players: It's a separate instance or nothing.
Devs: Okay, nothing
Players: 😮

Because that's what it's been for a long time now. I'd like to move forward from that.

They have never commented on sliders in a way that demonstrates understanding of the suggestion. And CredibleJoe recent suggestion also has not been commented on, and is a good hybrid. We also have a recent suggestion of using scribing system for it. Scribing might be the most realistic because they already laid the groundwork for it. IDK. And Scribing also solves the reward issue because it can remain kill mobs while using scribed skills or whatever.

Regardless, not only do I not see a separate instance as a good idea because it doesn't take into account major concerns I share with the devs.... But, I also personally think it's the least likely to be implemented. They've said no to it so many times already.

To be objective it’s irrelevant whichever ideas in this thread gain the most support at this point I doubt you can count even 40 players who keep up with discussion if the concerns about overland difficulty ever to be addressed it’s most likely would be entirely different implementation to the suggestions listed there.

I was really hopeful at first myself that this is going to be something really significant after all the complains. But considering that discussions about overland difficulty started way back before creation of this thread 3 years ago and there’s still barely any response from developers and not a single positive one I’ve started to doubt if there even going to be anything addressed about it at all.

Personally, I gradually moving on from ESO as suggested by posters on the very first pages. There are so many good challenging games released or going to be released which is far more enjoyable and engaging. Logging in ESO this year for me was mostly a chore, doing endeavors and getting event tickets as fast as I can then logging off. I can’t deny leveling and playing arcanist, primarily in pvp, then doing endless archive achievements grind was great fun. Yet it’s only a small portion of new content as main chapters was total slog making me question why I even spent my real money on them instead of just skipping them entirely.

Couldn't agree with you more, particularly on the bolded. I am not sure where there is any measure of fun that comes from having zero possibility of actually losing.

I will say, I feel like my gaming time has gotten so much better since phasing out ESO. Because I am not spending all my time trying to force fun in this game where it is not to be found, I've been able to go off and play and experience so many other amazing games that offer great challenge and have been supremely engaging. If ESO does not want to provide me with a product worth my time, then I'll go somewhere else that does.

It is a shame, because I want to like ESO. I want to love ESO. There is no gaming IP that I have more love for than Elder Scrolls. I absolutely adore MMO's and what they can be. By all rights, ESO should be my ultimate game. Unfortunately, ESO has managed to push away everything that made TES games great, go all in on an entirely formulaic and cookie cutter MMO design, and balance their game around people who don't want to lose.

Deserrick

Franchise408 wrote: »

I am not sure where there is any measure of fun that comes from having zero possibility of actually losing.

Playing overland naturally puts the chance of losing at much more than zero. Copying builds, having other players craft for you, and making sure you are always wearing set items that complete a set make you much more powerful than using what you get as you get it.

By going through overland on a new character, keeping your equipment up to date by equipping whatever you can find, only using the food and potions you find or craft with items found on that character, and using a variety of the skills you unlock, overland becomes much like early Morrowind, with Public Dungeons serving the role of the infamous smuggler's cave via both leading to constant retries.

Nharimlur_Finor

Franchise408 wrote: »

It is a shame, because I want to like ESO. I want to love ESO. There is no gaming IP that I have more love for than Elder Scrolls. I absolutely adore MMO's and what they can be. By all rights, ESO should be my ultimate game. Unfortunately, ESO has managed to push away everything that made TES games great, go all in on an entirely formulaic and cookie cutter MMO design, and balance their game around people who don't want to lose.

That's pretty much how I see it.

I'll add that this thread primarily exists to remove all the clutter from the main forum.
Anything else is secondary.

Rkindaleft

LaintalAy wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

It is a shame, because I want to like ESO. I want to love ESO. There is no gaming IP that I have more love for than Elder Scrolls. I absolutely adore MMO's and what they can be. By all rights, ESO should be my ultimate game. Unfortunately, ESO has managed to push away everything that made TES games great, go all in on an entirely formulaic and cookie cutter MMO design, and balance their game around people who don't want to lose.

That's pretty much how I see it.

I'll add that this thread primarily exists to remove all the clutter from the main forum.
Anything else is secondary.

Well the only people who still pay attention to this thread are the ones who actually care about overland's balance and keep posting here. But the issue is that ZOS hasn't responded here in a year and yet they still keep pushing any overland thread that appears in General to here and yet still don't respond to it.

Someone made a thread about Harrowstorm difficulty recently and it got closed and got told to post it here, like what?

D4rk

When i know the combat is easy like that i just hold the attack button and heavy attack anything.

Cersenin

D4rk wrote: »

When i know the combat is easy like that i just hold the attack button and heavy attack anything.

I'm just letting my naked companion kill everything while I'm drinking a beer. And my only joy in this, is drinking while I am getting aggro with NPCs. It's sad that such a great game offers such low challenges when questing.

Nharimlur_Finor

Franchise408 wrote: »

snip
I believe that the game never should have been balanced for the low skilled players from the get go, and it originally was not designed for that in the first place.
snip

Yes it was designed for low-skilled players. Players with TES background; not MMO background. The MMO part was an experiment that they have modified over time to make it successful. One Tamriel did that.

Companions were introduced because people complained that it was too hard to play individually and playing in random groups was always a toxic experience for them.

Your argument that a game should not be dumbed down to suit one group, is no more or less valid than other players protesting at making the game harder.

The real problem with this game is the bad behaviour and toxic cultures that players have brought in from other MMOs

colossalvoids

LaintalAy wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

snip
I believe that the game never should have been balanced for the low skilled players from the get go, and it originally was not designed for that in the first place.
snip

Yes it was designed for low-skilled players. Players with TES background; not MMO background. The MMO part was an experiment

Mmo is what the company actually started with, modifying the hell out of it when Skyrim succeed. It's still mmo design first, I guess any tes player can see how scrolls is more of a writing backdrop here.

But I've quoted for a different reason, I really low-key hate how tes player always portrayed as a low skilled one here, but it wasn't farther from truth until just recently with Skyrim. Morrowind and even Oblivion were not that even on the most left side of a difficulty slider, it was still an experience and wrong cave / rat could have easily humble player down. Tes players also want to have an entertaining game, not just mmo players.

Personally I want an option of having vast majority of the developed game (overland) matching the narrative of elder scrolls world being dangerous, daedra posing actual threat etc. It's a lost cause because business, but here we are still not letting them forget what part of the community wishes to see.

BasP

colossalvoids wrote: »

But I've quoted for a different reason, I really low-key hate how tes player always portrayed as a low skilled one here, but it wasn't farther from truth until just recently with Skyrim. Morrowind and even Oblivion were not that even on the most left side of a difficulty slider, it was still an experience and wrong cave / rat could have easily humble player down. Tes players also want to have an entertaining game, not just mmo players.

Personally I want an option of having vast majority of the developed game (overland) matching the narrative of elder scrolls world being dangerous, daedra posing actual threat etc. It's a lost cause because business, but here we are still not letting them forget what part of the community wishes to see.

I couldn't agree more. I find myself losing interest halfway through most Chapters' quest lines because it's hard to be engaged when you're just running from point A to point B and killing everything, including quest bosses, in a hit or two. It's the main reason I hardly finish them.

I get that not everyone feels that way, so it'd be nice if we had a couple of Overland difficulty settings to choose from so players could do the quests on a difficulty that suits them.

TheDarkRuler

Most people engaging in Overland content just want to quest or doing their dailies.
However, so many enemies are not being played at all because they can be skipped.
The dragging of enemies through overland or delves is already a thing and if you increase the difficulty more, it will just increase because running is faster than fighting.

Dahveed

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Most people engaging in Overland content just want to quest or doing their dailies.
However, so many enemies are not being played at all because they can be skipped.
The dragging of enemies through overland or delves is already a thing and if you increase the difficulty more, it will just increase because running is faster than fighting.

I personally don't even care about the trash mobs, they can stay trash for all I care... Especially regarding their health pools, the last thing I would want is just a slog through a bunch of bullet sponges to make things just take longer.

The practical things which need to change are:

- Damage multipliers, especially from enemies (i.e., if I'm surrounded by 6 bandits all hacking away at my face with big sharp objects and/or hurling flaming balls of death out of magical staffs, it should hurt;
- resource recovery (especially health recovery) should be nerfed (i.e. I shouldn't passively regenerate health during combat faster than a giant troll can reduce it while he's mashing my brains into jelly with his massive arms);
- quest bosses should have at least enough health to last at least a decent minute in a fight, even if it's just to give the illusion that he was powerful.

In my own fantasy rainbow unicorn perfect version of an Elder Scrolls Online, 90 percent of all eNeMiEs (i.e. the 743 random things that all want to kill me for no reason) that exist in each zone would just disappear entirely, allowing me to explore in peace. But if I DID get randomly attacked by 3 or 4 cutthroat bandits out in the wilds, they would pose a significant threat to me and their sharp pointy objects slashing at my throat would make me bleed and possibly die. What I can't stand about most of these moderns games, especially MMOs, is that you are constantly besieged by massive armies of derpy, pathetic, endless hordes of worthless loot pinatas who never pose any threat whatsoever but are just there to annoy me and slow me down. It feels like such antiquated and mind-numbing game design at this point. You'd think after so many decades of this old RPG trope, they'd be able to break this pattern. But like I said, I'm just fantasizing at this point.

The bare minimum I would ask for is some kind of debuff slider I could apply to my alts, so that my level 1 scrub doesn't feel invincible out of the gate. It would be more fun to play just a regular Bosmer scout, trying to sneak around an enemy camp without being caught to complete a dangerous mission, knowing full well that if I'm detected, the arrows the 14 enemy soldiers will shoot through my neck would probably kill me, adding danger and suspense to the adventure. As it stands now, they detect me and pepper me with projectiles and a battery of swings with their swords, and there is no real consequence other than "oh darn, I guess I'll have to sprint away for 15 seconds or so until they reset." (And this, at levels 1-10 with no skills, no CP, and no gear to speak of... just me holding the sprint key in a straight line away from their camp.)

Here's dreaming...