Overland Content Feedback Thread

ssewallb14_ESO

Nice job on the delve visuals in Gold Road. Good stuff.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

People who want additional challenge should have the option to do it.

They have that option with Dungeons, Public Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, World Bosses, Wandering World Bosses, Dragons, Geysers, Harrowstorms, Vents, Incursions, Bastion Nymics, the Infinite Archive.

But that kind of content isn't what TES has traditionally been about, and those who want a TES experience with any degree of challenge aren't getting that. There's no reason anyone who wants it shouldn't be able to get it.

This isn't traditional TES. But that wasn't the point of my post.

It doesn't matter if it isn't traditional TES. ZOS does provide an experience which is akin to the traditional TES experience in ESO overland, it's just that for a lot of players who come to this game to enjoy it, it's not satisfying. There's no reason to gatekeep someone else's fun by saying "you have all of this other stuff that's challenging, go play that". It's simply not what we're discussing. We're all here in this thread because overland is what we want to enjoy.

Nharimlur_Finor

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

People who want additional challenge should have the option to do it.

They have that option with Dungeons, Public Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, World Bosses, Wandering World Bosses, Dragons, Geysers, Harrowstorms, Vents, Incursions, Bastion Nymics, the Infinite Archive.

But that kind of content isn't what TES has traditionally been about, and those who want a TES experience with any degree of challenge aren't getting that. There's no reason anyone who wants it shouldn't be able to get it.

This isn't traditional TES. But that wasn't the point of my post.

It doesn't matter if it isn't traditional TES. ZOS does provide an experience which is akin to the traditional TES experience in ESO overland, it's just that for a lot of players who come to this game to enjoy it, it's not satisfying. There's no reason to gatekeep someone else's fun by saying "you have all of this other stuff that's challenging, go play that". It's simply not what we're discussing. We're all here in this thread because overland is what we want to enjoy.

You don't know the numbers. Just because it isn't satisfying for you, that doesn't mean the vast majority of players are not perfectly happy with the experience as it is now. Even if the slider thing were possible - and I don't think that it is - you all would get bored with it pretty quickly.

This whole thread is just a bit bucket.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

There's no reason to gatekeep someone else's fun by saying "you have all of this other stuff that's challenging, go play that". It's simply not what we're discussing. We're all here in this thread because overland is what we want to enjoy.

I never said anything like that. I was just pointing out that there is a lot of challenging content already, and overland is the only easy content in the game.

I'm also here because overland is what I enjoy and I do not want to see it changed. The only reasonable suggestion is some type of debuff that only affects the player, but I doubt it will ever happen because it would be impossible to come up with something that would satisfy everyone or for very long.

disky

LaintalAy wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

People who want additional challenge should have the option to do it.

They have that option with Dungeons, Public Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, World Bosses, Wandering World Bosses, Dragons, Geysers, Harrowstorms, Vents, Incursions, Bastion Nymics, the Infinite Archive.

But that kind of content isn't what TES has traditionally been about, and those who want a TES experience with any degree of challenge aren't getting that. There's no reason anyone who wants it shouldn't be able to get it.

This isn't traditional TES. But that wasn't the point of my post.

It doesn't matter if it isn't traditional TES. ZOS does provide an experience which is akin to the traditional TES experience in ESO overland, it's just that for a lot of players who come to this game to enjoy it, it's not satisfying. There's no reason to gatekeep someone else's fun by saying "you have all of this other stuff that's challenging, go play that". It's simply not what we're discussing. We're all here in this thread because overland is what we want to enjoy.

You don't know the numbers. Just because it isn't satisfying for you, that doesn't mean the vast majority of players are not perfectly happy with the experience as it is now. Even if the slider thing were possible - and I don't think that it is - you all would get bored with it pretty quickly.

This whole thread is just a bit bucket.

"A lot" doesn't indicate a majority. just a large number. There are obviously a lot of people who are unsatisfied with the game as it is because this has been an ongoing thread for a long time with a lot of people speaking their mind, and nothing is said by those who choose to stop playing because they're bored. Even if sliders aren't possible, there are a variety of ways to make this happen. It's just a matter of motivation.

This bitter, cynical gatekeeping is something I really just don't understand. Why are people so reticent to accept an optional change which wouldn't even affect them.

Dahveed

SilverBride wrote: »

Even so, I have stated many times that I am fine with an optional debuff that only affects the player using it.

Then why do you spend so much time on this forum constantly arguing with everyone who is asking for it? I think I asked you this specific question before (maybe 50 pages ago?), but I still genuinely don't understand why you are so obstinate in your constant poo-pooing on this thread.

disky

Dahveed wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Even so, I have stated many times that I am fine with an optional debuff that only affects the player using it.

Then why do you spend so much time on this forum constantly arguing with everyone who is asking for it? I think I asked you this specific question before (maybe 50 pages ago?), but I still genuinely don't understand why you are so obstinate in your constant poo-pooing on this thread.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

BasP

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

People who like the easy mode should have the option to remain at easy mode.

They have that option with Overland.

And despite that, if I remember correctly, ZOS is still thinking about implementing story mode for Dungeons (though it's low in their things to do). By your logic, why should ZOS even consider that feature? People that don't want to do something remotely difficult already have Overland - there's no need to make Dungeons just as easy.

Now I'm not against story mode Dungeons as it will lead to more people enjoying the content ZOS creates. Just as I'm not against anything resembling Veteran Overland, for the same reason.

SilverBride

Veteran overland levels drove me off after launch. I never want to see something like that again and that is why I defend overland as it is and do not think that overland itself should be changed at all.

However I am not unsympathetic and back up debuffs, but I'm being realistic and don't see it happening.

Damico

SilverBride wrote: »

Every single thing except overland is challenging content.

Excellent point, this should be fixed ASAP.

SilverBride

Damico wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Every single thing except overland is challenging content.

Excellent point, this should be fixed ASAP.

It was fixed with One Tamriel.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

However I am not unsympathetic and back up debuffs, but I'm being realistic and don't see it happening.

But you're not even trying to embrace the possibility of it, you're just saying overland challenge = no. A solution that works for everyone is not impossible, but it has to be discussed and considered openly for that to happen.

Muizer

SilverBride wrote: »

Veteran overland levels drove me off after launch. I never want to see something like that again.

It's never going to come back. ZOS changed it for a reason. And I do not actually think that reason was because it was too hard. I think it was because veteran ranks assumed you'd play through all zones of your alliance and then Cadwell's silver and gold. If you did (and did not skip content) increased difficulty of content was offset by your character leveling up. I think ZOS wanted to be rid of it because they wanted new players to be able to start in the expansion zones and not have to work through the entire base game first. Maybe I'm misremembering but I think this was the main reason behind One Tamriel and the disappearance of veteran ranks.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

But you're not even trying to embrace the possibility of it, you're just saying overland challenge = no. A solution that works for everyone is not impossible, but it has to be discussed and considered openly for that to happen.

If I'm not embracing this then why did I post on Kevin's wall asking him to pass along a new twist on the debuff idea that another poster suggested that uses the scribing system? I felt it was a unique and fresh approach and didn't want it to get missed.

I'd like nothing better than to see this issue resolved and put to rest but not at the cost of the overland I love.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

But you're not even trying to embrace the possibility of it, you're just saying overland challenge = no. A solution that works for everyone is not impossible, but it has to be discussed and considered openly for that to happen.

If I'm not embracing this then why did I post on Kevin's wall asking him to pass along a new twist on the debuff idea that another poster suggested that uses the scribing system? I felt it was a unique and fresh approach and didn't want it to get missed.

I'd like nothing better than to see this issue resolved and put to rest but not at the cost of the overland I love.

Then why are we still having this discussion?! I don't understand! You're making statements like "It was fixed with One Tamriel" implying that your preference is to keep things unchanged while also claiming to be for optional challenge. It's baffling, honestly.

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

Then why are we still having this discussion?! I don't understand! You're making statements like "It was fixed with One Tamriel" implying that your preference is to keep things unchanged while also claiming to be for optional challenge. It's baffling, honestly.

Because overland doesn't need fixed... it was already fixed 8 years ago. And there is a plethora of challenging content in this game, much of it in overland zones, yet I hear complaints that it's not challenging.

If a player wants more difficulty in overland because that is their personal preference, then that's all fine. But I take exception at presenting overland as broken and lacking when it's not.

To clarify, I am against any changes to overland itself, but am ok with a debuff that only affects the player using it.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Then why are we still having this discussion?! I don't understand! You're making statements like "It was fixed with One Tamriel" implying that your preference is to keep things unchanged while also claiming to be for optional challenge. It's baffling, honestly.

Because overland doesn't need fixed... it was already fixed 8 years ago. And there is a plethora of challenging content in this game, much of it in overland zones, yet I hear complaints that it's not challenging.

If a player wants more difficulty in overland because that is their personal preference, then that's all fine. But I take exception at presenting overland as broken and lacking when it's not.

To clarify, I am against any changes to overland itself, but am ok with a debuff that only affects the player using it.

This seems like such a contradictory argument though, in the context of this discussion with people who explicitly want optional debuffs. You keep making statements that appear to disagree with us but we're clearly on the same page. So what's the point?

SilverBride

disky wrote: »

This seems like such a contradictory argument though, in the context of this discussion with people who explicitly want optional debuffs. You keep making statements that appear to disagree with us but we're clearly on the same page. So what's the point?

I was replying to claims that overland is broken and lacking in challenging content... not to a request for an optional debuff. These are two different things.

Let's just leave it at that.

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Veteran overland levels drove me off after launch. I never want to see something like that again.

It's never going to come back. ZOS changed it for a reason. And I do not actually think that reason was because it was too hard. I think it was because veteran ranks assumed you'd play through all zones of your alliance and then Cadwell's silver and gold. If you did (and did not skip content) increased difficulty of content was offset by your character leveling up. I think ZOS wanted to be rid of it because they wanted new players to be able to start in the expansion zones and not have to work through the entire base game first. Maybe I'm misremembering but I think this was the main reason behind One Tamriel and the disappearance of veteran ranks.

They actually explicitly stated that difficulty was one of the reasons it changed. It wasn't the only reason but it was a primary one. They used this to explain why they will not make a separate instance. Their attitude was "we already tried that and people just didn't like the difficult stuff," type of attitude. Not the exact words but that was the gist.

Some of the opening discussion around this was dissection of that statement, including pointing out the many other things that made such a separate instance fail that was unrelated to difficulty.

psyllosghosd

Overland content is too easy, makes no fun this way, leveling is therefore pointless, which is why I have an on-off relationship with ESO. Whether or not this is economically viable for the companies behind ESO is irrelevant to me. In my opinion, the content is too easy because you just want to have every kiddy and every newbie run through everywhere right away, and possibly to reduce the difficulty with the controller for console players. This ruins the really great ESO experience for me. Because it's actually a wonderful game full of life, the best on the market. I started ESO when it came out and it was too hard for me at first, but today it's the exact opposite. Guys, you can also tune the difficulty of the enemies without the bunnies and wolves killing you right away when you're farming, but at the same time make it challenging enough that when I encounter a tougher enemy guarding a special resource or a miniboss in a quest, I have a challenge that reflects the value of the resource or quest.

Muizer

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They actually explicitly stated that difficulty was one of the reasons it changed. It wasn't the only reason but it was a primary one. They used this to explain why they will not make a separate instance. Their attitude was "we already tried that and people just didn't like the difficult stuff," type of attitude. Not the exact words but that was the gist.

Some of the opening discussion around this was dissection of that statement, including pointing out the many other things that made such a separate instance fail that was unrelated to difficulty.

I see. Can't say I remember it ever being a topic for discussion on the forums. Craglorn yes. Plenty discussion about that. But not the base game zones.

spartaxoxo

@Muizer

Here's the quote Rich made on a stream responding to a user asking a question about a separate vet overland instance. He doesn't do streaming anymore after an incident that's best not discussed here and a lot of clips aren't available anymore, so all we have are discussions of this quote but not access to the actual quote anymore. Luckily players had wrote it down years ago and discussed it, so we still know what he said.

"So, we had that, Jeulen, at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out and we put the challenge into world bosses and into solo arenas and into dungeons and trials."

“People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.”

Here's an example of the type of feedback Rich had been talking about

Typical example of the feedback received



"...It was far more difficult and unenjoyable than any game should be."

Here's a post that kind of touches on another one of the major reasons they have cited in the past about why it failed back then, which was player separation. The devs takeaway seems to have been "don't separate players," as they repeated this in numerous interviews even when not discussing difficulty options in particular. Most recently they talked about not wanting to separate players even for quest immersion when discussing Gold Road. They discussed it as one of the big mistakes they learned from in the past.

But this post breaks down why the situation was a lot more complicated than just "don't separate players."

baratron wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

IKYMI: Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."

Cadwell's Silver and Gold was terrible NOT because it was too hard, but because it was too empty.

Pre-One Tamriel, you could only play with friends of your own Alliance. There was a strict progression from the Normal zones to Cadwell's Silver to Cadwell's Gold.

• Aldmeri Dominion members went to the Ebonheart Pact then to the Daggerfall Covenant.
• Daggerfall Covenant members went to the Aldmeri Dominion then to the Ebonheart Pact.
• Ebonheart Pact members went to the Daggerfall Covenant then to the Aldmeri Dominion.

So there were multiple copies of each zone - Level 3-10 Glenumbra for DC players, Veteran Rank 1-3 Glenumbra for EP players, and Veteran Rank 9-10 Glenumbra for AD players. Or something around those levels - it's been a long time.

The Cadwell's Gold version of each zone would be basically empty. You'd only run into other players in the main city. You could put out a request for help in zone chat and no one would be there to answer you at all. Even the later Cadwell's Silver zones were empty. It was easier for most people simply to make alts in other Alliances just so they could find people to talk to.

And it wasn't as if you could play with anyone you knew, either. You had to be on a character of the matching Alliance as well as the correct level. If you're a person who plays off-peak times, like me (often on at 2 am in my timezone), good luck finding anyone at all to play with! I used to spend a lot of time playing on PC-NA with a friend who lived in Seattle (8 hours away) because PC-EU was dead.

If you brought back the concept of Cadwell's zones, but kept them open to all Alliances in a One Tamriel manner, I think they would be popular among all of us who find overland content "too easy".

Edit here's another

Vaoh wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

For all of these people wanting challenging overland content, where were you back in 2014 when this game went live and during May, June and early July of that year, the VR Gold zones (and to a lesser extent the VR Silver zones) along with most of Craglorn, were dead zones that nobody played? We've already been down this road and the public voted No by not playing the challenging overland content.

Where were they? If you understand the route this game took it’ll make sense tbh.

April 2014 PC launch:
ESO was full price + $15 monthly sub and the “free” month had issues working. There were an unbelievable amount of bugs, bots, the great AoE Caps mess up, Vet Ranks ugly grind, duplication glitches, hackers..... most people played until their initial subs ended and quit. ESO dropped its sub in March 2015 to avoid dying out - those who would have quested in Cadwell’s Silver/Gold were long gone or played less. Craglorn though lol, that place was ignored due to terrible design decisions.

June 2015 Console Launch::
It takes months to quest Cadwell’s Silver and much longer to access Cadwell’s Gold. Most of us don’t rush. Can confirm Cadwell’s Silver was absolutely flooded on console less than a year after launch. Cadwell’s Gold was emptier due to the Vet Rank grind. Craglorn is a separate issue - the *required grouping* feature. We had no text chat for console to even attempt to group, and low rewards+unreasonable difficulty+faction locks certainly didn’t help.

I could go on but it was not a difficulty issue. There are so many other factors. These forums would not be so full of people asking for increased difficulty enough for the mods to create this thread if it was not requested.

Personally, speaking for myself, I don't think they'll ever do a separate instance because they seem to feel it was a major contributing factor as to why this game almost failed. Even in one of their most recent interview they alluded to how they handled silver and gold (without ever explicitly saying it or talking about additional difficulty levels) as one of their biggest mistakes. So, I really wish that the conversation hadn't revolved around the one solution to this issue that the devs appeared, to me, to have taken a hard-line stance against. But it is what it is.

spartaxoxo

Here's the gold road interview they did, where they briefly talked about player separation as a mistake. It's important to note that this was NOT in the context of vet overland. They were actually talking about it moreso as a general principle. They actually cited it as why they don't do more world-changing quests anymore.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/mmo/eso-developers-rich-lambert-matt-firor-discuss-gold-road-turbulent-past-glorious-future-ahead-exclusive

Don't separate players was a monumental shift for them. It changed things down to the quest level.

disky

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, speaking for myself, I don't think they'll ever do a separate instance because they seem to feel it was a major contributing factor as to why this game almost failed. Even in one of their most recent interview they alluded to how they handled silver and gold (without ever explicitly saying it or talking about additional difficulty levels) as one of their biggest mistakes. So, I really wish that the conversation hadn't revolved around the one solution to this issue that the devs appeared, to me, to have taken a hard-line stance against. But it is what it is.

What this illustrates to me is not that overland challenge is too hard or undesirable, but that the things they try to do in order to provide a challenging experience are not the things players actually want. I just wish they would listen and try a method that players repeatedly request, which doesn't repeat their past negative experiences.

spartaxoxo

disky wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Personally, speaking for myself, I don't think they'll ever do a separate instance because they seem to feel it was a major contributing factor as to why this game almost failed. Even in one of their most recent interview they alluded to how they handled silver and gold (without ever explicitly saying it or talking about additional difficulty levels) as one of their biggest mistakes. So, I really wish that the conversation hadn't revolved around the one solution to this issue that the devs appeared, to me, to have taken a hard-line stance against. But it is what it is.

What this illustrates to me is not that overland challenge is too hard or undesirable, but that the things they try to do in order to provide a challenging experience are not the things players actually want. I just wish they would listen and try a method that players repeatedly request, which doesn't repeat their past negative experiences.

I disagree. I think it shows that a lot of people just don't want difficulty in their story. Which is perfectly fine. The only thing that tells me is that whatever they decide to do can't be mandatory. But, most of us just want something totally optional anyway. PvP is also niche and it's the focus of Q4 this year. It's not a good reason for them to do nothing.

Hanoan

Not sure what are you still arguing about. ZOS can copy what LOTRO did - "slider" with 9 levels of difficulty: casuals can one-shot one-button everything they want on level 1, challenge seekers can plan their tactics on level 9, everybody else choose something in between; Everybody happy. Scaling and veteran content is already in place, so not much new coding for the slider is required. Unless ZOS has something more complex in mind.

Muizer

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I disagree. I think it shows that a lot of people just don't want difficulty in their story. Which is perfectly fine.

Sounds to me like your example of someone complaining about difficulty illustrates what I said earlier. Someone progressing through the zones faster than they are leveling their own character. That is when it got hard. So I think Disky is right the actual problem was some players did not want to go through content in order. And you do also have to consider the company had an interest in abandoning that system regardless of what players were thinking as it allowed them to create chapters that you could jump into without having to level through the base game.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

@Muizer Here's the quote Rich made on a stream responding to a user asking a question about a separate vet overland instance. He doesn't do streaming anymore after an incident that's best not discussed here and a lot of clips aren't available anymore, so all we have are discussions of this quote but not access to the actual quote anymore. Luckily players had wrote it down years ago and discussed it, so we still know what he said.

"So, we had that, Jeulen, at launch. It was called Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold. Nobody did it and everybody hated it, so we took it out and we put the challenge into world bosses and into solo arenas and into dungeons and trials."

“People just did not like the extra difficulty in the story stuff. I get that there’s a lot of people that do like the harder difficulty, but a HUGE portion of our player base just wants to do story, and they don’t want to have to struggle with difficult things.”

Someone saved the first part of the stream which is still available here.

https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineLovelyGrassTakeNRG-IGkmH8s1XHeD9P2u

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I disagree. I think it shows that a lot of people just don't want difficulty in their story. Which is perfectly fine.

Sounds to me like your example of someone complaining about difficulty illustrates what I said earlier. Someone progressing through the zones faster than they are leveling their own character. That is when it got hard. So I think Disky is right the actual problem was some players did not want to go through content in order. And you do also have to consider the company had an interest in abandoning that system regardless of what players were thinking as it allowed them to create chapters that you could jump into without having to level through the base game.

Fair enough. But when that's how most Elder Scrolls players play Elder Scrolls games, I don't think you can say the problem is the players. Elder Scrolls games generally allowed you to travel all over. There were some enemies you'd want to avoid but the idea that you couldn't just jump straight into the college of winter hold in Skyrim, for example, wasn't really a thing. At least not on the default difficulty.

They have talked a lot about how the game became more successful when they made the conscious decision it be more Elder Scrolls like. And not necessarily connected to discussions about difficulty either, just in general.

But, the part I just will never be able to wrap my head around is why all of that means these complaints should be ignored. There's been suggestions like sliders or that hybrid solution CredibleJoe came up with that take those concerns into account.

Still nothing but crickets.

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

But, the part I just will never be able to wrap my head around is why all of that means these complaints should be ignored. There's been suggestions like sliders or that hybrid solution CredibleJoe came up with that take those concerns into account.

Still nothing but crickets.

Well.... I guess that's an answer, ain't? I find it.... an abdication of major proportions, even though I'm on the side of "don't mess up the current iteration/*not difficulty* of overland".

I just don't want to have to deal with anything difficult in a game I play for fun. At this point in my life I have QUITE enough to deal with IRL - a game I play to escape RL isn't something I expect to throw a lot of difficult mechanics at me - and should that occur in the future (it hasn't - yet - barring some serious issues with my sat connection) I would most likely have to find something else to play.

That would make me very sad. And yeah - no one would care, I'm just one pretty old gamer, and the money I spend is a drop in the bucket.

I can always go back to Skyrim. I've not installed it on my new machine (nor Oblivion) - but I can of course. *shrug* Mostly ESO pushes all my buttons, but of course I'm as usual a minority of one.