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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Overland Content Feedback Thread
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Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭Look - could we all just stop attacking each other? I'm fairly sure that some uptick in overland difficulty is going to happen at some point. And I'll figure it out when it happens.
I'm actually happy with overland myself, because mega ping just means it's a lot more difficult already for me, but when it happens I'll deal. Or if it's really a huge problem for me, I'll quit playing and go back to Oblivion and Skyrim. At that point I'd miss ESO, but if I can't handle the harder version, well....
I hope I have come across as attacking anyone. I do not want to give that impression. I just asked a question, and the response I got left me feeling ignored. I very much respect those who do not want harder overland difficulty. When I was first getting started on ESO, I ran into a point where I literally could not kill a story boss for Couldharbor. I literally had to ask for help to just get past them. Now, I could probably kill that same boss in a single heavy attack, but I actually understand about builds and understand the game a lot better.
Additionally, I am left confused about why the hostility towards my idea, that (assuming it were possible, would still leave the easy overland difficulty there (which I still enjoy at times) but would add (assuming it is possible) something for those who want a harder challenge, which is a group I now occasionally fall into.0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There are plenty of people like myself who are hopeful that something can be done, and given ESO is a video game and already has the parts needed to implement this in place, it would be possible to add this without negatively impacting others. Some users are concerned that if anything were to happen then it would be forced on them, and there are some who do not want anything to happen whose post often inflame the concerns in others. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when both ZOS being silent on the matter and some intentionally undermining the discussion. If I, and others like me, weren't to speak up for ourselves clearly and directly the others would drag our intentions through the mud, which is why this thread exists, and several others were rapidly locked before its creation. That is the reason for these responses.3 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are plenty of people like myself who are hopeful that something can be done, and given ESO is a video game and already has the parts needed to implement this in place, it would be possible to add this without negatively impacting others. Some users are concerned that if anything were to happen then it would be forced on them, and there are some who do not want anything to happen whose post often inflame the concerns in others. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when both ZOS being silent on the matter and some intentionally undermining the discussion. If I, and others like me, weren't to speak up for ourselves clearly and directly the others would drag our intentions through the mud, which is why this thread exists, and several others were rapidly locked before its creation. That is the reason for these responses.
Well, part of my issue is that really, bottom line, I don't expect ZOS to do "optional" period. The pushback from others - yeah, I get that there's a lot of stuff going on there, but much of what's posted has "proprietary" written all over it.
And that's really all I'm willing to post.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are plenty of people like myself who are hopeful that something can be done, and given ESO is a video game and already has the parts needed to implement this in place, it would be possible to add this without negatively impacting others. Some users are concerned that if anything were to happen then it would be forced on them, and there are some who do not want anything to happen whose post often inflame the concerns in others. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when both ZOS being silent on the matter and some intentionally undermining the discussion. If I, and others like me, weren't to speak up for ourselves clearly and directly the others would drag our intentions through the mud, which is why this thread exists, and several others were rapidly locked before its creation. That is the reason for these responses.
Well, part of my issue is that really, bottom line, I don't expect ZOS to do "optional" period. The pushback from others - yeah, I get that there's a lot of stuff going on there, but much of what's posted has "proprietary" written all over it.
And that's really all I'm willing to post.
So, the question I asked was this...So, if they were able to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
And given your concern, I would rephrase the question So, if they were able and willing to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
Are you willing to answer my question?0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When an instance is created, it refers to a list of things that particular instance needs to create it. You have fixed instances like Cyrodiil where each instance is fixed, with a clearly defined ruleset and the inability to generate additional instances to support particularly high populations, with more instances needing to be made manually, but that's the only place in game where that's needed.
[omitted housing paragraph]
When an instance is initialized, that is when the server would need to refer to these unique lists, like when a group of players starts up a dungeon, but once it's created it would require nearly the same amount of resources as any other type of the same instance. Something like the different game modes for battlegrounds may differ more heavily, since some game modes likely require more scripts and networked data, but overall not enough to justify not having them. Because you know what else would increase server strain? Having more players online, and I don't think anyone at ZOS is thinking "we could improve server performance by driving away people."
All versions of a current zones instances "all having the same exact mobs at the same difficulty" doesn't matter, go to a dozen different players homes of the same house, each uniquely furnished, and realize the game doesn't explode when initializing these instances with their different unique settings and assets.
That is nice, but what if ZOS does not have the game designed that way?
Frankly, no one really knows how the megaserver works. There are layers of trickery that they do under the covers. I'd love to find out more, but I fear that anyone who found out would be prohibited from telling us.
However, we do know that the mobs are hand tuned. They have said as much. That means that, at minimum, a veteran zone is going to require that someone go in and hand tune whatever mobs are in it. That right there is going to add to the maintenance burden.
1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are plenty of people like myself who are hopeful that something can be done, and given ESO is a video game and already has the parts needed to implement this in place, it would be possible to add this without negatively impacting others. Some users are concerned that if anything were to happen then it would be forced on them, and there are some who do not want anything to happen whose post often inflame the concerns in others. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when both ZOS being silent on the matter and some intentionally undermining the discussion. If I, and others like me, weren't to speak up for ourselves clearly and directly the others would drag our intentions through the mud, which is why this thread exists, and several others were rapidly locked before its creation. That is the reason for these responses.
Well, part of my issue is that really, bottom line, I don't expect ZOS to do "optional" period. The pushback from others - yeah, I get that there's a lot of stuff going on there, but much of what's posted has "proprietary" written all over it.
And that's really all I'm willing to post.
So, the question I asked was this...So, if they were able to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
And given your concern, I would rephrase the question So, if they were able and willing to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
Are you willing to answer my question?
I have never had a problem with "optional". I just do not believe that ZOS will do that optional content. And I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to CP5______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭When an instance is created, it refers to a list of things that particular instance needs to create it. You have fixed instances like Cyrodiil where each instance is fixed, with a clearly defined ruleset and the inability to generate additional instances to support particularly high populations, with more instances needing to be made manually, but that's the only place in game where that's needed.
[omitted housing paragraph]
When an instance is initialized, that is when the server would need to refer to these unique lists, like when a group of players starts up a dungeon, but once it's created it would require nearly the same amount of resources as any other type of the same instance. Something like the different game modes for battlegrounds may differ more heavily, since some game modes likely require more scripts and networked data, but overall not enough to justify not having them. Because you know what else would increase server strain? Having more players online, and I don't think anyone at ZOS is thinking "we could improve server performance by driving away people."
All versions of a current zones instances "all having the same exact mobs at the same difficulty" doesn't matter, go to a dozen different players homes of the same house, each uniquely furnished, and realize the game doesn't explode when initializing these instances with their different unique settings and assets.
That is nice, but what if ZOS does not have the game designed that way?
Frankly, no one really knows how the megaserver works. There are layers of trickery that they do under the covers. I'd love to find out more, but I fear that anyone who found out would be prohibited from telling us.
However, we do know that the mobs are hand tuned. They have said as much. That means that, at minimum, a veteran zone is going to require that someone go in and hand tune whatever mobs are in it. That right there is going to add to the maintenance burden.
But as @SilverBride pointed out they used to have harder overland content, that required you to run through the story of the game three times in order to get to the hardest difficulty setting and based on the information I have right now, there seems to have been no way to turn it back down if you wanted it. So, the idea that it was not used might have had nothing to do with there not being a desire for it, but from poor implementation. And either way, they previously had it in the game and there was no problem with maintenance so your concern about maintenance is irrelevant.
All we are asking for, essentially amounts to this, add something similar to what they used to have, but make it possible (if someone wanted to do so, for a player on a new account who has just created their first character to change the difficulty settings. They used to have it in the game. It just was implemented in a way that was essentially designed to fail. Let's give it another try and implement it in a way that is easier to use and less ambiguous for changing afterwards.1 -
Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are plenty of people like myself who are hopeful that something can be done, and given ESO is a video game and already has the parts needed to implement this in place, it would be possible to add this without negatively impacting others. Some users are concerned that if anything were to happen then it would be forced on them, and there are some who do not want anything to happen whose post often inflame the concerns in others. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when both ZOS being silent on the matter and some intentionally undermining the discussion. If I, and others like me, weren't to speak up for ourselves clearly and directly the others would drag our intentions through the mud, which is why this thread exists, and several others were rapidly locked before its creation. That is the reason for these responses.
Well, part of my issue is that really, bottom line, I don't expect ZOS to do "optional" period. The pushback from others - yeah, I get that there's a lot of stuff going on there, but much of what's posted has "proprietary" written all over it.
And that's really all I'm willing to post.
So, the question I asked was this...So, if they were able to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
And given your concern, I would rephrase the question So, if they were able and willing to create an optional increased difficulty, that had no impact on those that did not want to use it, but would allow those who wanted to use it the option to get harder difficulty levels, would you have a problem with that and if so why?
Are you willing to answer my question?
I have never had a problem with "optional". I just do not believe that ZOS will do that optional content. And I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to CP5
I understand that. Right now, and (it seems) that most of this thread is a bunch of people going back and forth with their own ideas seemingly ignoring everyone else.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But as @SilverBride pointed out they used to have harder overland content, that required you to run through the story of the game three times in order to get to the hardest difficulty setting...
I never said that. There was no working towards the hardest difficulty setting. There was Cadwell's Silver and Gold which both consisted of veteran level zones, then there was Craglorn that was described as an adventure zone.Edited by SilverBride on February 2, 2023 1:54AMPCNA1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But as @SilverBride pointed out they used to have harder overland content, that required you to run through the story of the game three times in order to get to the hardest difficulty setting and based on the information I have right now, there seems to have been no way to turn it back down if you wanted it. So, the idea that it was not used might have had nothing to do with there not being a desire for it, but from poor implementation. And either way, they previously had it in the game and there was no problem with maintenance so your concern about maintenance is irrelevant.
All we are asking for, essentially amounts to this, add something similar to what they used to have, but make it possible (if someone wanted to do so, for a player on a new account who has just created their first character to change the difficulty settings. They used to have it in the game. It just was implemented in a way that was essentially designed to fail. Let's give it another try and implement it in a way that is easier to use and less ambiguous for changing afterwards.
The easiest way for them to do Cadwell zones is to just duplicate the base game zone two times and then make them custom zones. This reuses capabilities that already exist in the game, but at a cost of manual labor. From a maintenance perspective, this is a horrible idea, but we already know that not everything they did back in the early days was done with longevity in mind, and ditching Cadwell was one of the first things they did. It is very possible that One Tamriel reduced their zone maintenance burden considerably, and that was an enticing reason to do it.
If any of the above holds water, then I can certainly see why they would not want to make veteran zones using the same methods they used with Cadwell.
0 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »It'd be a separate instance using what they already have in place, just like any currently well populated zone already has.
But it wouldn't. The current instances that are created to handle the amount of players in the zone at the time all have the same exact mobs at the same difficulty.
Veteran instances with harder mobs with different mechanics would have to be created and maintained.
It would be as easy as adding a couple lines of code multiplying a few values. There is nothing to maintain, which has been explained in detail.2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »It'd be a separate instance using what they already have in place, just like any currently well populated zone already has.
But it wouldn't. The current instances that are created to handle the amount of players in the zone at the time all have the same exact mobs at the same difficulty.
Veteran instances with harder mobs with different mechanics would have to be created and maintained.
It would be as easy as adding a couple lines of code multiplying a few values. There is nothing to maintain, which has been explained in detail.
The entire game needs to be maintained as new content is added and changes are made. And it would take a lot more work than just adding a couple of lines and multiplying a few values. Every mob would have to be reworked to have different mechanics.Edited by SilverBride on February 3, 2023 4:14PMPCNA0 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It'd be a separate instance using what they already have in place, just like any currently well populated zone already has.
But it wouldn't. The current instances that are created to handle the amount of players in the zone at the time all have the same exact mobs at the same difficulty.
Veteran instances with harder mobs with different mechanics would have to be created and maintained.
It would be as easy as adding a couple lines of code multiplying a few values. There is nothing to maintain, which has been explained in detail.
The entire game needs to be maintained as new content is added and changes are made. And it would take a lot more work than just adding a couple of lines and multiplying a few values. Every mob would have to be reworked to have different mechanics.
This would be true if everything wasnt already scaled to full homogenization. As it stands now, mobs would simply need damage, damage protection, and health multipliers, and a seperate set of multipliers for world bosses, quest bosses, delve bosses and public dungeon bosses.0 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alternatively, using whichever techniques they use in every dungeon and trial, modify the base templates enemies are spawned off of by replacing which abilities the AI uses with new ones, so you replace a conjurer calling a bubble from the planes of oblivion with, anything else. There isn't a need to rewrite AI, just giving the already existing ones the tools that more recent dungeon and trial npcs have access to would go far in making the content more interesting, and there are so many abilities to draw from, with animations already plentiful that no new assets even need to be made.2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It'd be a separate instance using what they already have in place, just like any currently well populated zone already has.
But it wouldn't. The current instances that are created to handle the amount of players in the zone at the time all have the same exact mobs at the same difficulty.
Veteran instances with harder mobs with different mechanics would have to be created and maintained.
It would be as easy as adding a couple lines of code multiplying a few values. There is nothing to maintain, which has been explained in detail.
The entire game needs to be maintained as new content is added and changes are made. And it would take a lot more work than just adding a couple of lines and multiplying a few values. Every mob would have to be reworked to have different mechanics.
This would be true if everything wasnt already scaled to full homogenization. As it stands now, mobs would simply need damage, damage protection, and health multipliers, and a seperate set of multipliers for world bosses, quest bosses, delve bosses and public dungeon bosses.
How is that going to satisfy the posters asking for mobs not to just be stronger with more health but to actually have new mechanics?
If just making mobs stronger with more health is acceptable, just make a debuff for the player.PCNA2 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Modifying enemy stats is the exact same area as modifying abilities, it's part of the template enemies are spawned from.3 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unless some of you are employed by ZOS/know proprietary info some way, you're just guessing....
I'm not even worried about more difficult overland myself any more; what happens happens. But some of you seem to be indicating you have "insider knowledge".
If you know stuff, uncloak. And if you don't know stuff, quit posting as if you do.______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....5 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It isn't as though ZOS would intentionally have a list of enemy health values in one area, loot tables for what enemies can drop in another, references to their model in a 3rd place and their animation set in a 4th. Only real old games that never were that big were likely to be messed up, but any game of substantial size or with any interest in making the design process not a nightmare keeps these together. If ZOS was able to make an MMO by practicing the worse game design conventions ever then we'd already have a city on the moon, which is to say that there is no reason to assume anything other than them having enemy templates in a neat and organized list where every relevant variable except heavily scripted fights scripts would all be together to make the process of designing and updating entities as easy as possible. Source on this? Literally every single game I've ever cracked open to mod or progam I've used to do so, and even from my own experience making games.
In short, they either have everything neatly together, or their dictionaries have their table of contents out of order and scattered throughout the entire book.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Unless some of you are employed by ZOS/know proprietary info some way, you're just guessing....
I'm not even worried about more difficult overland myself any more; what happens happens. But some of you seem to be indicating you have "insider knowledge".
If you know stuff, uncloak. And if you don't know stuff, quit posting as if you do.
Of course people are guessing. The megaserver architecture is proprietary and anyone who could fill in details would be prevented from doing so.
However, we can determine a lot about what they are doing through observation of what ZOS does and what they say, and how that relates to real world experiences from, say, jobs. Some people in here have background in game design. Some people in here have background in server and database design. Some people have background in software development. There are a lot of smart people in here. This does not reveal precisely what ZOS does, but it does allow for better guesses than rolling dice.Edited by Elsonso on February 4, 2023 3:24PM3 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭There were at least 2 instances of enemy hp alterations even after one tamriel, probably even more.
The one related to overland is changing health of all 40k hp enemies to 60k (was it greymoor patch?), it affected different enemy types like flesh atronachs, clanfears, ogres, nereids and so on across all overland related content.
The most recent one, reducing hp of all vet bosses in group content by roughly 10%.
While those examples don’t demonstrate all the variables which could be altered it seems hp could be changed and it doesn’t seem to involve some sophisticated tuning of every single mob or boss so there is templates of some sort.
That combined with the fact how every other piece of content offers both normal and veteran level of combat makes it seem the possibility of creating similar ruleset for other areas feasible as well.2 -
Blackbird_V✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »It'd be a separate instance using what they already have in place, just like any currently well populated zone already has.
But it wouldn't. The current instances that are created to handle the amount of players in the zone at the time all have the same exact mobs at the same difficulty.
Veteran instances with harder mobs with different mechanics would have to be created and maintained.
It would be as easy as adding a couple lines of code multiplying a few values. There is nothing to maintain, which has been explained in detail.
The entire game needs to be maintained as new content is added and changes are made. And it would take a lot more work than just adding a couple of lines and multiplying a few values. Every mob would have to be reworked to have different mechanics.
This would be true if everything wasnt already scaled to full homogenization. As it stands now, mobs would simply need damage, damage protection, and health multipliers, and a seperate set of multipliers for world bosses, quest bosses, delve bosses and public dungeon bosses.
How is that going to satisfy the posters asking for mobs not to just be stronger with more health but to actually have new mechanics?
If just making mobs stronger with more health is acceptable, just make a debuff for the player.
How many times have people posted in this thread where they self-debuff? Where they remove their cp, wield crappy gear and weapons that are of low quality and using no set bonuses, only to find out that they can still nuke delve bosses (basically same trash as quest bosses) in like 8 seconds?
Debuffs for players are just not the answer: it's been tested multiple times.
Edited by Blackbird_V on February 4, 2023 9:19PMDifficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Debuffs isn't the same thing as removing gear, as the developers can introduce much more severe debuffs than the player can currently manage on their own. And since you're using a debuff slider, you can still wear the same gear and keep all your skills and CP. They also can allow for enemies to unleash new attacks, which is also not something accomplishable with gear. This is something that works in another MMO, so its likely to work in this one too.Edited by spartaxoxo on February 4, 2023 9:24PM1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Blackbird_V wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »How is that going to satisfy the posters asking for mobs not to just be stronger with more health but to actually have new mechanics?
If just making mobs stronger with more health is acceptable, just make a debuff for the player.
How many times have people posted in this thread where they self-debuff? Where they remove their cp, wield crappy gear and weapons that are of low quality and using no set bonuses, only to find out that they can still nuke delve bosses (basically same trash as quest bosses) in like 8 seconds?
Debuffs for players are just not the answer: it's been tested multiple times.spartaxoxo wrote: »Debuffs isn't the same thing as removing gear, as the developers can introduce much more severe debuffs than the player can currently manage on their own. And since you're using a debuff slider, you can still wear the same gear and keep all your skills and CP. They also can allow for enemies to unleash new attacks, which is also not something accomplishable with gear. This is something that works in another MMO, so its likely to work in this one too.
Thank you, @spartaxoxo.PCNA1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Debuffs isn't the same thing as removing gear, as the developers can introduce much more severe debuffs than the player can currently manage on their own. And since you're using a debuff slider, you can still wear the same gear and keep all your skills and CP. They also can allow for enemies to unleash new attacks, which is also not something accomplishable with gear. This is something that works in another MMO, so its likely to work in this one too.
So on player specific debuffs alone, what could a slider do that player based self nerfs can't? Skill cost and resource recovery are things a player can modify, and if you want to chug poisons that includes even more things players can do to themselves to nerf themselves. From Risk of Rain 2 there is a game mode where you progress through 8 tiers of challenges that stack on each other, and one of these makes it so whenever you take damage a bit of that damage goes to reducing your maximum health. That sort of thing is a debuff that could work, but as I have mentioned before, if someone is enjoying the game at the difficulty they enjoy, be it a casual player playing as is or a vet player being debuffed, and someone comes by blitzing through the content slaughtering everything, that serves to ruin the player who was otherwise enjoying the content. Expanding situations where this happens isn't ideal.
As for the enemy skills, as I mentioned about enemies being allowed to use skills only with players tagged to be targets, how'd that work with players with different settings enabled? How would an npc healer respond if they were fighting a player with hard mode enabled, and one with it off? How about enemy conjurers, what would they do? Enemies whose attacks could need a larger radius to be impactful? Or would it be like the Hews Bane world bosses, in that if someone pokes the boss they scale up to compensate for the additional enemies, and if that person then dies all they accomplished was making the fight harder for everyone else?
This is why I feel using the already in place instancing tech they have everywhere else, to put players in instances who share a similar mindset and expectations, would be the best choice. Why gamble with something that is prone to expanding bad experiences that already happen and would likely only serve to cause confusion when you can use what's already here and already has been used for this exact purpose?3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So on player specific debuffs alone, what could a slider do that player based self nerfs can't?
For one thing, they can be much more severe than player debuffs. For example, for argument's sake let's say a player could at max double the amount of damage they take from enemies by unequipping everything. A debuff slider could instead make that ten times the amount of damage, and make it so pretty much any heavy attack that hits you will one shot you from even the smallest mob.
Beyond that, they can add special attacks that only target the debuff player. The slider can apply such a debuff to you and enemies can then hit you with special attacks that only does damage to the person with the debuff.
For example, NPC healers could hit you with a unique defile attack that reduces your healing to 0 unless you interrupted it. Or the Dragon landing damage could also send out a shockwave that flings you into the air and you'll die if you don't synergize a safe landing. People without the debuff wouldn't get hit by these. A npc could throw a hidden knife at you that could put a severe bleed on you. Etc. Etc.
If they so chose, they could even add environmental debuffs or survival debuffs. Such as giving you a starvation timer that would kill you if you don't eat. A player isn't going to die if they unequip their gear, but they could if a starvation debuff was added. (ETA: I don't really like the idea of a starvation debuff just an example).
Since it's not changing the health of the mob but the amount of damage a player is dealing to it (creating effectively the same scenario for the debuffed player) if they debuffed player dies, any normal mode allies are still fighting the same mob they always were. So their play experience is not impacted, unlike when instead the mob scales such as your Hews Bane example.
Players finding someone else killed something before they got there or running into a more powerful player is inherent to MMOs and will happen regardless of which path they take.
The slider doesn't seem to cause much confusion in LOTRO from what I could tell, seemed mostly celebrated.
The devs there said they did because it was "cheat" they used to reign in the development scope. And the players cited being able to still play together with friends not using it as a strength (although I'm sure there's plenty would have preferred a separate server).
Regardless, the developers of this game have cited both scope and splitting players as a reservation for not giving options. This addresses both of those concerns.
I fully admit that many players would probably find it a bit less immersive than if they were on their own separate instance. But there's a lot they can do with it that unequipping gear simply does not provide.Edited by spartaxoxo on February 5, 2023 6:56AM1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Understandable, and given the number of different skills enemies already have that target specifically labeled players those would make sense. It does limit the scope of how ZOS could empower the enemies, but those examples would make for a more interesting experience.1 -
AlexanderDeLarge✭✭✭✭✭
✭As cool as the Telvanni Peninsula and the endless dungeons look, it's more of the same. $40 for overland content that will bore me to tears, a single trial and veteran dungeons to instance myself away from the content I actually want to engage in.
Arcanist will be fun to play, if and when I have a reason to play it because once again, I refuse to play a MMORPG where 99% of the content being sold to me isn't made for me. It's so extremely frustrating. Give me debuff memento in the meantime until a proper difficulty slider/veteran overland feature is implemented? That can't be that hard to do. Seriously. That is literally all it would take for me to start playing and buy content I skipped.
Meanwhile The Lord of the Rings Online is bringing the landscape difficulty feature to all servers this summer which I have used and can attest to it completely revitalizing the game for much of the community. The Elder Scrolls Online will be extremely easy for me to avoid and ignore in 2023. We'll see what happens in 2024. There's only so long ZOS can delay the inevitable.Edited by AlexanderDeLarge on February 6, 2023 1:35PMDifficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 7 paid expansions. 22 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the vast majority of this game.
"ESO doesn't need a harder overland" on YouTube for a video of a naked level 3 character AFKing in front of a bear for a minute and a half before dying3 -
AlexanderDeLarge✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »Rich's Quote on Overland Content
"That's a difficult one because difficulty is definitely subjective. We have millions of players that play The Elder Scrolls Online, and a large portion of them find the game hard and the Overland content challenging, especially as a new player when you don't have gold, all the gear, and Champion Points. Ultimately it comes down to, if we make the game harder, what are the incentives for players to play it at the harder level? That opens up a whole huge can of worms. I also look back and remember we had harder Overland content. We had Cadwell Silver, we had Cadwell Gold, and players really didn't like it. It was too hard for them, and when we did One Tamriel, we ripped all that out based on player feedback. Like, nobody did it. So it's a challenging subject and a difficult question to answer. All I can really say is we're definitely looking at it, but we don't have any major changes planned for the Overland difficulty."
I continue to take issue with Rich's stance on the matter for a variety of reasons.
1.) Every other aspect of the game has veteran phasing along with different reward tiers. Veteran dungeons. Veteran trials. Veteran arenas. Drawing the line at overland PvE content is both convenient and arbitrary. Especially when it's the majority of content I'm being sold every year.
2.) Cadwell Silver and Gold were not veteran overland and playing devil's advocate, even if they were, the game was broken beyond belief and the base game's content wasn't enjoyable to run through once let alone two or three times over at level 50 scaling. Nobody did it because it wasn't fun because the content itself wasn't fun and so was much of the game at the time. One Tamriel's relaunch didn't happen for no reason. It's not like they overhauled a game that was perfectly fine and healthy and breaking records. They implemented One Tamriel to recover from a disastrous launch and a massive overhaul is exactly what they needed to convince people who tried it two years prior to give it another chance.
Just to illustrate my point, it took me 39 scrolls on this page on a 4K monitor at 100% render scale in my browser to 'go back in time' through the major releases that have happened since Cadwell Silver/Gold.
3.) We've had 35 game-changing updates since the days of Cadwell Silver/Gold including A Realm Reborn-tier relaunch of the game. Ancient history and I'm sick of hearing it used as a retort when we're 153 pages into discussing it nearly ten years later. Once again, it's not a fringe minority of neckbeards contained exclusively on the forums in this thread. Everywhere you go, "I stopped playing because the overland PvE content is braindead easy". Why is "feedback" from the launch version of the game being used to justify a lack of action almost a decade later when there's an overwhelming amount of feedback coming in now saying the exact opposite?
4.) Difficulty is subjective, so give us a difficulty slider. The Lord of the Rings Online did it and it's great. Problem solved.
Like seriously, can we just admit that the game has changed significantly and the content being designed post-1.0 has gotten better to the point where the topic is worth revisiting instead of immediately deflecting with a decade-old argument?Edited by AlexanderDeLarge on February 6, 2023 2:02PMDifficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 7 paid expansions. 22 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the vast majority of this game.
"ESO doesn't need a harder overland" on YouTube for a video of a naked level 3 character AFKing in front of a bear for a minute and a half before dying7 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »Cadwell Silver and Gold were not veteran overland and playing devil's advocate, even if they were, the game was broken beyond belief and the base game's content wasn't enjoyable to run through once let alone two or three times over at level 50 scaling. Nobody did it because it wasn't fun because the content itself wasn't fun and so was much of the game at the time. One Tamriel's relaunch didn't happen for no reason. It's not like they overhauled a game that was perfectly fine and healthy and breaking records. They implemented One Tamriel to recover from a disastrous launch and a massive overhaul is exactly what they needed to convince people who tried it two years prior to give it another chance.
Cadwell's Silver and Gold were veteran level zones for veteran level players and they were much more difficult than the players' own alliance zones that they played through first. Players weren't doing them because of the difficulty.
The content didn't change with One Tamriel. It's the exact same today as it was then only not at veteran levels.
Also, there was no playing through the same content 2 or 3 times. Each alliance has their own zones and stories and it was those that were played through with Cadwell's Silver and Gold.Edited by SilverBride on February 6, 2023 5:05PMPCNA1 -
hashii✭✭✭Hi! I copied this from another thread I made. Figured this is a good place to put this idea out there.
Overland Hardmode is interesting, and I would like to see that implemented in someway shape or form. I'm trying to figure out how they could do so. This is how I think they could do it, while catering to casual/new-players and seasoned-veteran players looking for a challenge. And doing it this way could open an entirely new game-mode/achievement and reward system.
Combined New-Game-Modes Proposal: Overland-Difficulty: This is a tricky problem, and I propose handling it in multiple targeted ways. Each of these are individual separate game-modes that combine together to solve the overland difficulty problem.- First New Game-Mode: Beast-Hunter (couldn't call it Monster Hunter for obvious reasons haha)
Basically, it's like a zone-wide event - just like how Dragons roam around or Harrowstorms are triggered. In a cyclical pattern, one or two world-bosses in the zone becomes Enraged at the same time. This means they glow with a fiery aura, and are harder and stronger. Also, they are also visually bigger and have a new Title next to their name/or new name. This happens in the overland and it reuses the existing assets already created, but they are scaled to be bigger, with glowing animated effects to signify that they are harder. These enemies are equivalent to regular veteran dungeon bosses with new mechanics.
For Public dungeons and Delves, there is an option now to choose between Normal or Veteran mode, just like group dungeons. And if you choose Veteran mode, once again, you face Enraged final-boss(es) at the end of the delve/public dungeon. - Second-New Game-Mode: Bestiary Achievement System This is where it gets interesting. In your Collections/Journal Menu, there is a new tab called Bestiary. This is a new type of achievement system. It is essentially a book that you open, and it has a neatly drawn sketch of the world-boss that is enranged. It gives some lore about the boss, and interesting info. Plus, it also has a check mark whether you killed it or not. If you did not kill it, the boss would be grayed out, and it just has their new name only. If you killed it, you unlock the art and the lore.
If you click the Bestiary Achievement button, this has new achievement rewards that players can strive for. Dyes, Mounts,
Pets, Body Markings, Tattoos, Personalities, Furnishings, Etc. - Third-New-Game-Mode: Unique Enraged Bosses: These vary between zone-to-zone. Each Zone has different collection of Uniques. What this means is, killing a regular Enraged World-Boss triggers a rare event that summons a Unique Enraged Boss that is somewhere on the map. You now have to go to that location and you will be given the opportunity to kill that. It is equivalent to a hard-mode veteran dungeon world boss. Once again, these are special pages within your Bestiary that you can collect which supports the new achievement system.
I think this Bestiary system incentivizes people to collect the missing pages in their book. If they want to feel that sense of completion, they have to go to the different zones and tackle these new bosses and unlock the new art and lore, while unlocking the achievements associated with it. And the good thing about ESO is, there are so many Zones available, with so much open space for bosses to pop up.
Now the only thing to handle next is, how do you implement Hardmode Story option in ESO. I'd love to have stronger story bosses. It would have to flow smoothly with the whole role-playing experience too. Why would your character who already saved the world, need to do it again but this time it's harder? Perhaps, this too calls for a new game-mode.
Fourth-New-Game-Mode: Nightmares of the Dreamstride: This is a good time to add Vaermina into the mix for added lore. Essentially, once you finish the main-story in regular difficulty, you now have the option to relive that experience in harder-difficulty. This new hardmode storyline doesn't happen in your normal Tamriel reality, but it is a fake-reality caused by Vaermina's dreams and illusions. This can tie into a background story about Vaermina and her plans for something nefarious. It is not a full-fledged storyline like regular Chapters, but mini quests that join together like puzzles to create a bigger storyline.- For each Alliance Faction, it can have some distinct extra storyline about the consequences of your actions once you finished the story in veteran hard mode. Each fake-reality of Vaermina, for each alliance storyline, needs to have a separate mini-storyline-quest. Again for the DLC storylines, it has to be a separate mini-storyline as well. It essentially provides the role-player a lore-friendly way to make sense of all of this.
- Perhaps from a development point of view, new mini-stories are unlocked every Q4-with the release of the new game-modes ZOS is planning in the future. Nightmares of the Dreamstride can be a slow, but expanding storyline that offers veteran mode difficulty to existing storylines.
0 - First New Game-Mode: Beast-Hunter (couldn't call it Monster Hunter for obvious reasons haha)