Mistform changes means RIP console VRG HM

Avoranti

Perhaps the devs should show Tanks how to do these fights without the current Mist form meta. But, that would require them to actually play the group content they are creating.

In regards of feedback. Why ask for it if they are not going to use it? Far too often I read on forums “we gave them feedback saying this was an issue and it went live anyway”.

The mist form change is still a bad decision. Perhaps they just adjust the encounters like in the patch notes and they can leave mist form alone and maybe do some other changes that allow the vampire skill line to be more useful in pve. Vampires are supposed to be powerful in the Elder Scrolls franchise, right? Only in ESO do they feel weak and to only weaken them even more because a handful of people got clever with their character builds. Instead of fixing the issue that caused this to happen, they punish the entire vampire player base. Unfair.

thadjarvis

The odd thing is that they nerfed the mechanic that isn't difficult to survive (as MT at least) without mist form or magma: Death's Touch. Mist makes it much easier to move though.

The adds' DoTs on the OT are much rougher. I haven't been in portal but they seem to have it rough without mist form (I have no idea if you can learn to not use mist). Death's Touch isn't what makes mist form "required"; it's the other stuff.

irswat

Portal without mist was doable, but slower. Mist form in portal is easy mode. Mist form was a must for MT fot deaths touch, but atro bleeding and behemoth scalding wound does same or more dmg as deaths touch and wasnt nerfed. Making matters worse is that its impossible to maim bahsei because of how the devs designed the encounter

Troodon80

What I don't understand is... Creeping Manifold, on Xalvakka, goes right through Mist Form and Magma Shell, and chews through the high health of Goliath. You can dodge roll it to avoid ticks and you can mitigate some of it with Meditate. Instead of making Mist Form useless in all PvE content, why not just make more mechanic based damage ignore the Mist Form/Magma Shell mitigation, but make it not so severe so a healer doesn't have an aneurysm trying to heal it (not using Mist Form)?

irswat wrote: »

Portal without mist was doable, but slower. Mist form in portal is easy mode. Mist form was a must for MT fot deaths touch, but atro bleeding and behemoth scalding wound does same or more dmg as deaths touch and wasnt nerfed. Making matters worse is that its impossible to maim bahsei because of how the devs designed the encounter

Also, I should like to note that on Bahsei, Death Touch—until fairly recently—came from a completely different version of Bahsei (you are no doubt already aware of that given your statement as to its design), so using Major + Minor Maim + Mending + Weakening + other targetted damage reduction measures, etc. did nothing. People before were using Bani not knowing or understanding that it didn't work. Some of the first hard mode clears had main tanks using it.

Now, it seems, though I haven't put a lot of testing into this (only a single raid where I was spamming Clench while not in Mist Form for Brittle (which does Major Maim)), they "fixed" Bahsei to take various damage reduction measures by including them in the "real" Bahsei casts. Curiously, no mention has been made of this in any of the patches around that time (7.1.5 / 7.1.6).

Here are some log details:

I'll describe these as "real" and "fake":


These attacks come from the "real" Bahsei (03-Sept-2021):


These come from the "fake":


However, (06-Sept-2021), this seemed to change, Death Touch now comes from the "real" Bahsei:


While the "fake" deals with other mechanic, one-shot, wipe, etc. based damage.


Now, the interesting thing is, a patch occured on 07-Sept. This would be after the change. However, there was some downtime, at least on PC-EU (correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it was also PC-NA?), on 06-Sept which might expain this as a server-side change.

Here's a non-hard mode PUG run from June, this is the "fake" Bahsei:


Here's one from 17-Sept (real Bahsei):


Fake Bahsei:

Make of that what you will.

code65536

Troodon80 wrote: »

Creeping Manifold, on Xalvakka, goes right through Mist Form and Magma Shell, and chews through the high health of Goliath. You can dodge roll it to avoid ticks and you can mitigate some of it with Meditate.

Are you sure about the Meditate part? As I understand it, Manifold is oblivion damage, so of course it bypasses mist, magma, shields, etc., and is just a heal-check.

Troodon80

code65536 wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

Creeping Manifold, on Xalvakka, goes right through Mist Form and Magma Shell, and chews through the high health of Goliath. You can dodge roll it to avoid ticks and you can mitigate some of it with Meditate.

Are you sure about the Meditate part? As I understand it, Manifold is oblivion damage, so of course it bypasses mist, magma, shields, etc., and is just a heal-check.

I've been reliably able to mitigate it, whether intended or unintended. Though other incoming damage makes it not really feasible (e.g. Daedroth incinerate, Deadstar, etc.) to be rooted in place without block mitigation or dodge rolling, so I stopped running it. To clarify, though, it's not technically Oblivion damage in the sense that it's called fire damage and has a fire damage ID. But it is direct health damage that ignores shields. It's oblivion damage without being oblivion damage. Because consistency.

frozzzen101

I don't like the idea of misting trough that fight as much as any other tank, but I don't want this change either. Honestly don't enjoy being stuck as turret in mist, but trifectas have already been done and strategies have already been formed around this fight. It's not the worst thing to leave it as it is because fight is already solved, and new groups progressing some older trials might enjoy the relative safety of mist form in some cutting edge situations. Nerfing Bahsei will leave very sour taste in groups that missed progress in these patches and future trifecta titles will feel meh. And nerfed it must be because dots from Abominations and especially Behemoths can sometimes tick as high as 20k and you can take absolutely mental amount of damage as a tank there.

And yes, mist is strong, only sometimes imbalanced and you can use it to completely mitigate some threats in some easier content, but it's never optimal way to play and I haven't seen it abused on any other fight except Bahsei. You aren't doing anything in mist. You are just afking, not buffing, debuffing or controlling the fight as a tank, and as dd you pretty much never want to be in mist.

Honestly it's knee jerk reaction on part of devs who just don't want to bother making content around this skill when answers are obvious - percentage of your maxhp, oblivion damage, modest oblivion dot ticks on tanks etc. With solutions being straightforward I just don't see any good reason to remove skill from PvE entirely. Rather focus on making future content mist proof and not this nonsense of deleting skills because players are using them. Devs made huge balance mistakes on Bahsei fight and brought mist in spotlight. Own that mistake and leave well enough alone. I'd rather have skill that I can use as a crutch here and there than not having it at all, all because instead of balancing a singular encounter in entirety of the game during duration of its PTS, devs decided to balance it over 150 days later.

Troodon80

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Rather focus on making future content mist proof and not this nonsense of deleting skills because players are using them.

They already did this with Dread Cellar. It was actually refreshing to see a reaction from something, an interaction when you used a certain skill. Just an an example, if they want players to eat the DoT from Bahsei, I don't understand why they can't just modify the behaviour in that if you use Mist Form the boss will lose aggro. Or any of the other suggestions that came up in the Q2 PTS. They don't have to gut a skill and make it completely useless outside of PvP -- a place in which I would argue it is already overused, and not as a means of disengaging but as a means of taking almost no damage while being able to build ultimate in relative safety. The length of time is just so bizarre.

frozzzen101 wrote: »

devs decided to balance it over 150 days later.

It's not just balancing, by the way. They added a journal page to Blackreach over half a year after its release, but it's one that doesn't have a post-quest spot. So if you happened to do the quest in that timeframe you cannot get the book now. Someone put a lot of thought into that change last patch. While not really comparable, I hope this "let's change this thing some 150-200 days after release and break it" does not become a trend.

frozzzen101

Troodon80 wrote: »

They already did this with Dread Cellar. It was actually refreshing to see a reaction from something, an interaction when you used a certain skill. If they want players to eat the DoT from Bahsei, I don't understand why they can't just modify the behaviour in that if you use Mist Form the boss will lose aggro. They don't have to gut a skill and make it completely useless outside of PvP -- a place in which I would argue it is already overused, and not as a means of disengaging but as a means of taking almost no damage while being able to build ultimate in relative safety.

I low key hated the interaction in Dread Cellar. But it doesn't really matter. There's plenty of things that counter Mistform. Lady Thorn's flyover attack will drop you out of Mistform. In Red Petal Bastion final boss will throw you out of Mistform with its Duplicate Wall attack and he has oblivion damage as well. Mistform is far from end all be all defensive tool. I tried it in various fights and found that it really can't be abused anywhere. it can be used sparingly (for example in vAS if you mess your positioning for a few sec to get your ground) but it's never best option anywhere and at worst it can be abused a bit if your stamina falls low you can mist a bit to get potion off cooldown to reengage encounter properly. It's also kinda good in trash because even if multiple enemies attack you it won't drain your mag like you'd have your stam drained by multiple enemies, but again, you aren't doing anything. Only place where you aren't really abusing it, but relying on it to barely complete the fight is in fact Bahsei HM, and for that reason it needs to be gone.

Honestly there is disturbing trend with devs straight up destroying defensive options in game without thinking much about long term consequences.
Purge? HAHAHAHAHA HAVE A PLAGUEBREAKER BALL GROUP GO BRRRRR. Did it change ball groups? No they are just stacking more heals. its effect on Wardens however? Yeah...
High defenses trough armor rating? HAHAHAHAHA HROTHGAR GO BRRRRR. And not only target suffers from it but its group as well. How inspiring. I've heard people joining enemy alliances to create nice Hrothgar bombs but can't really confirm it.
And now with mist where people used it to barely eek out JUST ONE POORLY BALANCED ENCOUNTER? "Yeah, its' definitively getting changed, enjoy it while it lasts" or something along those lines.
It's in extremely bad taste.

spartaxoxo

This change is truly terrible

spartaxoxo

karekiz wrote: »

Well I mean.

Playerbase has asked for a seperate PvE/PvP system for awhile. This is kinda just that.

People mean separate pvp morphs or separate balancing as in having the skill do different things or numbers in the two modes, rather than just removing skills entirely for either mode.

code65536

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I don't like the idea of misting trough that fight as much as any other tank, but I don't want this change either. Honestly don't enjoy being stuck as turret in mist, but trifectas have already been done and strategies have already been formed around this fight. It's not the worst thing to leave it as it is because fight is already solved, and new groups progressing some older trials might enjoy the relative safety of mist form in some cutting edge situations. Nerfing Bahsei will leave very sour taste in groups that missed progress in these patches and future trifecta titles will feel meh. And nerfed it must be because dots from Abominations and especially Behemoths can sometimes tick as high as 20k and you can take absolutely mental amount of damage as a tank there.

And yes, mist is strong, only sometimes imbalanced and you can use it to completely mitigate some threats in some easier content, but it's never optimal way to play and I haven't seen it abused on any other fight except Bahsei. You aren't doing anything in mist. You are just afking, not buffing, debuffing or controlling the fight as a tank, and as dd you pretty much never want to be in mist.

Honestly it's knee jerk reaction on part of devs who just don't want to bother making content around this skill when answers are obvious - percentage of your maxhp, oblivion damage, modest oblivion dot ticks on tanks etc. With solutions being straightforward I just don't see any good reason to remove skill from PvE entirely. Rather focus on making future content mist proof and not this nonsense of deleting skills because players are using them. Devs made huge balance mistakes on Bahsei fight and brought mist in spotlight. Own that mistake and leave well enough alone. I'd rather have skill that I can use as a crutch here and there than not having it at all, all because instead of balancing a singular encounter in entirety of the game during duration of its PTS, devs decided to balance it over 150 days later.

Ideally, RG should've never went live in its current state. We firmly told ZOS during the Blackwood PTS that Mist Form was required for HM, and that this was not okay. And not only did it go live like that, the problem went unaddressed for two whole patches. But what's done is done, and although adjusting it now creates all kinds of problems: forcing people to relearn the fight, bringing up issues of fairness for groups that got the achievement with the help of Mist Form, etc., it's still something that needs to be done.

I just wish we had never gotten to this point in the first place. This should've been nipped in the bud during the Blackwood PTS, and it's extremely frustrating that it was not.

frozzzen101

code65536 wrote: »

Ideally, RG should've never went live in its current state. We firmly told ZOS during the Blackwood PTS that Mist Form was required for HM, and that this was not okay. And not only did it go live like that, the problem went unaddressed for two whole patches. But what's done is done, and although adjusting it now creates all kinds of problems: forcing people to relearn the fight, bringing up issues of fairness for groups that got the achievement with the help of Mist Form, etc., it's still something that needs to be done.

I just wish we had never gotten to this point in the first place. This should've been nipped in the bud during the Blackwood PTS, and it's extremely frustrating that it was not.

I agree with majority of your post, but just can't agree with your ultimate conclusion. Is there any chances they are reverting mistform changes? I really doubt it. It's already coded and I felt distaste for Mistform coming from Rich. Might be my interpretation but it felt that way.

Yes, Bahsei fight is aberration in terms of what is expected from many roles in that fight. If Mistform ultimately remains scraped, which I suspect it will, fight will change also in a good ways. As tanks we'll get a lot more active role and will actually have ability to use our GCDs again, but we'll lose solid defensive tool, probably permanently. And Bahsei is not only specific fight where we had "use X or you won't clear it". At the peak of their relevance AS and Cloudrest were pretty much mag or gtfo, and this still stands today. There is some nuance to it but generally it's true. Those fights weren't altered to become more melee friendly as time passed despite this being clearly in favor of play style that excluded far more people than couple of disgrunted tanks having to use vamp (which armory will help with a lot in next patch). It alienated many stamina mains for long period of time and I know several that never returned to the game. But ZoS never went back and changed this content despite it being aberrations from the norm. After 150 days of Bahsei, this for me feels like legacy fight already, together with its kinks and accepted strategy. To nerf it at this point or to change is significantly would feel like we wronged this content, especially with it being current and most relevant content in the game. It's much different than nerfing HoF after 5 years to allow more groups to try and tackle it. I know that post Mist change Planesbreaker will be different achievement, for better or worse.

I agree with you that I wish we never got to this point, and I realize that I'm probably just screaming in the wind with these posts, but in the off chance that mist gets saved I'll go ahead and do it.

Alexium

I know it! Devs want return vampires back to their graves. It is poor strategy of making new content and then removing all things that can do this content too easy? Mist Form is one of oldest vampire skills in the game. If Devs wants nerf it to the ground, then probably they should give something else as a compensation.

There are very sad minds in my head. I should write it here. Oh no, it mat be too rude... I will unhappy now. Even if I not using Mist Form in its full power.

IronWooshu

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

lol, I'm sorry but the over exaggerations and the extremes people take changes to is often hilarious.

Does it suck Mist Form got nerfed for PVE? Yes, Was it breaking features unintended? Yes, Was it restricting to other players not running Vampire from completing content? Yes

Do you see the problem(s)?

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

siddique

TequilaFire wrote: »

PvP had nothing to do with the nerf.
Been trying to point out for years devs don't like PvE content cheesed.

Its not cheese if there's less than 0.01% playerbase with the latest trifecta with that skill.

Besides, what will mistform do in PvE now? Stop you from getting healed? Like what sort of a skill does that?

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

I'm very interested in hearing strategies for surviving aboms/behemoths without mistform if ZoS isn't doing anything about their damage. How will groups clear HM?

MrGhosty

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

lol, I'm sorry but the over exaggerations and the extremes people take changes to is often hilarious.

Does it suck Mist Form got nerfed for PVE? Yes, Was it breaking features unintended? Yes, Was it restricting to other players not running Vampire from completing content? Yes

Do you see the problem(s)?

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

This isn't on the players, it's not like the issues of putting one piece of gear on until you get a certain buff than swapping gear while getting to keep the buff. This was a skill that was working as intended. If Boss HMs were where the problem lies it seems simple to make that boss damage go through mistform which leaves it to be useful for all the other players not pushing HM completion.

I don't personally use the skill, as I only play my vamp in overland stuff for the jollies, but it annoys me to no end that they are gutting a skill just for Pve. If it's a broken skill, replace it, or fix the bosses, etc. Mobs don't really do enough snares/immobilzations to make this skill worth having. There are however several vamp related skills mobs use that would be cool to have access to so if they're dead set on keeping this change I'd rather they just remove it completely. The main thing is to not finger wag at players, the only people we should be pointing to are the devs themselves.

Amottica

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Who the hell decided that? the ability is now useless and there is no reason to use it anymore, why would they make it unusable or did ZOS forget PvP is barley 5% of the games content, I do not even bring my Vampire into PvP.

Technically speaking the skill still does something which means Zenimax can say it still has a use. However, I agree that it is now pretty lame in PvE since the main functionality of the skill is gutted. I cannot imagine using the skill merely for snare relief let alone still paying the same cost and lose magicka regen.

I would suggest the HM difficulty of this trial is not tuned properly if it cannot be cleared on all three platforms without the use of this skill. I have not cleared it as I am probably two new to ESO for that so I do not know if the skill is actually required or not.

Mumbles_the_Tank

IronWooshu wrote: »

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

Absolute rubbish - plain and simple.

From the start of Blackwood PTS the feedback was consistent that incoming damage on Bahsei was way too high. The only action by the devs during the cycle was to remove potential options when they made everything undodgeable.

There is no “might have been” at all here. It was pointed out repeatedly, only to be ignored or brushed off. Then left to fester for two whole patches. When they finally get around to tinkering with the fight, it’s only along with a sledgehammer to a niche but iconic skill and snide commentary implying that this is all somehow our fault.

No one I know really wanted to have to vamp up and float around in raid every night but their inaction and poor balancing left folks with little choice. What were we supposed to do in your eyes? Just not bother with the centrepiece of annual content we pay for?

Vevvev

Amottica wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Who the hell decided that? the ability is now useless and there is no reason to use it anymore, why would they make it unusable or did ZOS forget PvP is barley 5% of the games content, I do not even bring my Vampire into PvP.

Technically speaking the skill still does something which means Zenimax can say it still has a use. However, I agree that it is now pretty lame in PvE since the main functionality of the skill is gutted. I cannot imagine using the skill merely for snare relief let alone still paying the same cost and lose magicka regen.

I would suggest the HM difficulty of this trial is not tuned properly if it cannot be cleared on all three platforms without the use of this skill. I have not cleared it as I am probably two new to ESO for that so I do not know if the skill is actually required or not.

As someone who did the Bahsei fight on just veteran.... It's insane. There's so much that can straight up kill you and there's even anti-ball group tactics that DPS have to worry about making the fight very mobile and "on your toes". You blink and you're dead basically.

Alexium

If someone must be a vampire to play some content this is not a problem of Mist Form. This is content problem. Bad design.

You know... I don't play in trials, dungeons and that hard content. But I post in this topic because I want to defend my play style. I will fight against that nerf!

temerley

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

ajkb78

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Tbh using it for vmoshm hunt phase seems far more like cheese than using it in vRG. As long as you have a source of speed (whether major expedition or CP or streak or whatever) and means of regenerating stamina (dark deal, consuming trap, igneous shield spam etc) then you don't need anything else.

ajkb78

frozzzen101 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I know that post Mist change Planesbreaker will be different achievement, for better or worse.

I agree with you that I wish we never got to this point, and I realize that I'm probably just screaming in the wind with these posts, but in the off chance that mist gets saved I'll go ahead and do it.

Not sure about that. If mitigation and damage both get nerfed the achievement probably ends up not much different, besides which while Bahsei might be an unpleasant fight to survive isn't the real crux of planesbreaker being able to pass the extreme DPS check on Xalvakka? The difficulty of these kind of things waxes and wanes every patch anyway as achievable DPS goes up and down.

code65536

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Mist Form is pretty broken OP in PvE. You easily reach the 90% mitigation cap with it. Mist Form needed to be changed for PvE.

And Mist Form was a problem even before Rockgrove existed. For example, you can use it to ignore the bug bomb mechanic in BRP. You can use it to completely ignore the spirit scream mechanic in BRP. You can use it to AFK-tank the statues on Nahviintaas. You can use it for the static on Lokkestiiz. Etc. There are a lot of mechanics in all sorts of places that can be trivialized with Mist, not just in Rockgrove. So, yes, Mist is way OP in PvE and this change was completely justified, regardless of what happened with Rockgrove.

What Rockgrove did was open the door. The vast majority of players never even considered using Mist for PvE. And then we got a piece of content that was so grossly overtuned that players got "creative" and came up with Mist as a solution. Once everyone vamped up and slotted Mist for Rockgrove, they started thinking, "where else could I try using this?" So what Rockgrove did was shine a bright spotlight on this issue.

Yes, Rockgrove's balance is a cruel joke that needed to be addressed. But Mist Form in PvE is also grossly out of whack and needed adjustment, and that brokenness was there all along--it just never got any attention until Rockgrove.

Vevvev

code65536 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Mist Form is pretty broken OP in PvE. You easily reach the 90% mitigation cap with it. Mist Form needed to be changed for PvE.

And Mist Form was a problem even before Rockgrove existed. For example, you can use it to ignore the bug bomb mechanic in BRP. You can use it to completely ignore the spirit scream mechanic in BRP. You can use it to AFK-tank the statues on Nahviintaas. You can use it for the static on Lokkestiiz. Etc. There are a lot of mechanics in all sorts of places that can be trivialized with Mist, not just in Rockgrove. So, yes, Mist is way OP in PvE and this change was completely justified, regardless of what happened with Rockgrove.

What Rockgrove did was open the door. The vast majority of players never even considered using Mist for PvE. And then we got a piece of content that was so grossly overtuned that players got "creative" and came up with Mist as a solution. Once everyone vamped up and slotted Mist for Rockgrove, they started thinking, "where else could I try using this?" So what Rockgrove did was shine a bright spotlight on this issue.

Yes, Rockgrove's balance is a cruel joke that needed to be addressed. But Mist Form in PvE is also grossly out of whack and needed adjustment, and that brokenness was there all along--it just never got any attention until Rockgrove.

Then it should be balanced accordingly instead of outright removed. Not saying you're wrong but the approach here, and why people are up in arms, is due to how ZOS went about "fixing the problem".

code65536

Vevvev wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Mist Form is pretty broken OP in PvE. You easily reach the 90% mitigation cap with it. Mist Form needed to be changed for PvE.

And Mist Form was a problem even before Rockgrove existed. For example, you can use it to ignore the bug bomb mechanic in BRP. You can use it to completely ignore the spirit scream mechanic in BRP. You can use it to AFK-tank the statues on Nahviintaas. You can use it for the static on Lokkestiiz. Etc. There are a lot of mechanics in all sorts of places that can be trivialized with Mist, not just in Rockgrove. So, yes, Mist is way OP in PvE and this change was completely justified, regardless of what happened with Rockgrove.

What Rockgrove did was open the door. The vast majority of players never even considered using Mist for PvE. And then we got a piece of content that was so grossly overtuned that players got "creative" and came up with Mist as a solution. Once everyone vamped up and slotted Mist for Rockgrove, they started thinking, "where else could I try using this?" So what Rockgrove did was shine a bright spotlight on this issue.

Yes, Rockgrove's balance is a cruel joke that needed to be addressed. But Mist Form in PvE is also grossly out of whack and needed adjustment, and that brokenness was there all along--it just never got any attention until Rockgrove.

Then it should be balanced accordingly instead of outright removed. Not saying you're wrong but the approach here, and why people are up in arms, is due to how ZOS went about "fixing the problem".

It's hard to balance this skill for both PvE and PvP because PvE and PvP are not the same.

PvE enemies are "dumb" by design: I mean, if a boss was smart, he'd ignore taunt, kill the healer and then all the DDs and save the tank for last. If a boss was smart, he'd move right out of all the ground DoTs that are used. And if a boss was smart, he'd ignore the misting players and unload everything the instant the players exit mist. These are all things that actual players would do, but PvE enemies will not do.

So what do you do? Do you nerf the defensive power of mist? PvPers will hate that. Do you code PvE enemies to be smart about mist? That's really hard, and there are a lot of different enemies and mechanics that'd need to be redesigned to take this into account.

People on the forums have long asked for a separate balance between PvE and PvP, and guess what? This is exactly what ZOS is doing. They're balancing PvE and PvP separately in the case of mist, and frankly, I think what they did makes sense and is the right move.

Vevvev

code65536 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Mist Form is pretty broken OP in PvE. You easily reach the 90% mitigation cap with it. Mist Form needed to be changed for PvE.

And Mist Form was a problem even before Rockgrove existed. For example, you can use it to ignore the bug bomb mechanic in BRP. You can use it to completely ignore the spirit scream mechanic in BRP. You can use it to AFK-tank the statues on Nahviintaas. You can use it for the static on Lokkestiiz. Etc. There are a lot of mechanics in all sorts of places that can be trivialized with Mist, not just in Rockgrove. So, yes, Mist is way OP in PvE and this change was completely justified, regardless of what happened with Rockgrove.

What Rockgrove did was open the door. The vast majority of players never even considered using Mist for PvE. And then we got a piece of content that was so grossly overtuned that players got "creative" and came up with Mist as a solution. Once everyone vamped up and slotted Mist for Rockgrove, they started thinking, "where else could I try using this?" So what Rockgrove did was shine a bright spotlight on this issue.

Yes, Rockgrove's balance is a cruel joke that needed to be addressed. But Mist Form in PvE is also grossly out of whack and needed adjustment, and that brokenness was there all along--it just never got any attention until Rockgrove.

Then it should be balanced accordingly instead of outright removed. Not saying you're wrong but the approach here, and why people are up in arms, is due to how ZOS went about "fixing the problem".

It's hard to balance this skill for both PvE and PvP because PvE and PvP are not the same.

PvE enemies are "dumb" by design: I mean, if a boss was smart, he'd ignore taunt, kill the healer and then all the DDs and save the tank for last. If a boss was smart, he'd move right out of all the ground DoTs that are used. And if a boss was smart, he'd ignore the misting players and unload everything the instant the players exit mist. These are all things that actual players would do, but PvE enemies will not do.

So what do you do? Do you nerf the defensive power of mist? PvPers will hate that. Do you code PvE enemies to be smart about mist? That's really hard, and there are a lot of different enemies and mechanics that'd need to be redesigned to take this into account.

People on the forums have long asked for a separate balance between PvE and PvP, and guess what? This is exactly what ZOS is doing. They're balancing PvE and PvP separately in the case of mist, and frankly, I think what they did makes sense and is the right move.

They can already differentiate players from NPCs. 75% against players, and 30-35% against NPCs sounds fair enough. ZOS's 75% against players and 0% against NPCs is silly.

If for example it was at 30% that's worse than the standard 50% block, but we both know it'd be mitigating DoTs and ground AoEs as well. This would be more balanced because Mistform eliminates resource regeneration, healing except for Blood Mist's specific heal, and you're not able to do anything else. If it was at 30% it'd only be used in more niche scenarios and I doubt the bloodmist heal would outpace Bahsei's damage if it was at 30% over 75% which is 3/4ths of the damage.

code65536

Vevvev wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

temerley wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Avoranti wrote: »

wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

EDIT: This is on the players fault for abusing game mechanics with it, you all need to look into the mirror and put the blame on yourselves for this nerf. It might have been an oversight on part by ZOS but it also created a club of "You have to be vampire to run with us (Insert Content).

LMAO, what?? Mistform have been the same before vRG, no abuse because it's working as intended. It's just a solution that ZOS does not want the player base to use on bahsei and now all use on PVE content outside vRG suffers (like using it on vMoShm hunt phase for ex)

Mist Form is pretty broken OP in PvE. You easily reach the 90% mitigation cap with it. Mist Form needed to be changed for PvE.

And Mist Form was a problem even before Rockgrove existed. For example, you can use it to ignore the bug bomb mechanic in BRP. You can use it to completely ignore the spirit scream mechanic in BRP. You can use it to AFK-tank the statues on Nahviintaas. You can use it for the static on Lokkestiiz. Etc. There are a lot of mechanics in all sorts of places that can be trivialized with Mist, not just in Rockgrove. So, yes, Mist is way OP in PvE and this change was completely justified, regardless of what happened with Rockgrove.

What Rockgrove did was open the door. The vast majority of players never even considered using Mist for PvE. And then we got a piece of content that was so grossly overtuned that players got "creative" and came up with Mist as a solution. Once everyone vamped up and slotted Mist for Rockgrove, they started thinking, "where else could I try using this?" So what Rockgrove did was shine a bright spotlight on this issue.

Yes, Rockgrove's balance is a cruel joke that needed to be addressed. But Mist Form in PvE is also grossly out of whack and needed adjustment, and that brokenness was there all along--it just never got any attention until Rockgrove.

Then it should be balanced accordingly instead of outright removed. Not saying you're wrong but the approach here, and why people are up in arms, is due to how ZOS went about "fixing the problem".

It's hard to balance this skill for both PvE and PvP because PvE and PvP are not the same.

PvE enemies are "dumb" by design: I mean, if a boss was smart, he'd ignore taunt, kill the healer and then all the DDs and save the tank for last. If a boss was smart, he'd move right out of all the ground DoTs that are used. And if a boss was smart, he'd ignore the misting players and unload everything the instant the players exit mist. These are all things that actual players would do, but PvE enemies will not do.

So what do you do? Do you nerf the defensive power of mist? PvPers will hate that. Do you code PvE enemies to be smart about mist? That's really hard, and there are a lot of different enemies and mechanics that'd need to be redesigned to take this into account.

People on the forums have long asked for a separate balance between PvE and PvP, and guess what? This is exactly what ZOS is doing. They're balancing PvE and PvP separately in the case of mist, and frankly, I think what they did makes sense and is the right move.

They can already differentiate players from NPCs. 75% against players, and 30-35% against NPCs sounds fair enough. ZOS's 75% against players and 0% against NPCs is silly.

If for example it was at 30% that's worse than the standard 50% block, but we both know it'd be mitigating DoTs and ground AoEs as well. This would be more balanced because Mistform eliminates resource regeneration, healing except for Blood Mist's specific heal, and you're not able to do anything else. If it was at 30% it'd only be used in more niche scenarios and I doubt the bloodmist heal would outpace Bahsei's damage if it was at 30% over 75% which is 3/4ths of the damage.

Okay, I suppose a small number that's not quite as small as zero could work too. Psijic channels grant 30%, so that seems it should be fine.