How to fix the "fake tank & healer" problem

Kusto

BlueRaven wrote: »

The best solution would be to make tanks and healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.

Healers are basically mag dps already. Just add couple dps skills on your bar when you overland and you're no different from dps characters. It takes 2 sec.
Now with tanks it takes gear and skills change but if you're on PC then addons take care of that also in 2 sec. No need to change cp, mundus or attributes. With just gear and skills change you can easily pull 20-30k dps single target self buffed, which is enough for anything overland.

BlueRaven

Kusto wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

The best solution would be to make tanks and healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.

Healers are basically mag dps already. Just add couple dps skills on your bar when you overland and you're no different from dps characters. It takes 2 sec.
Now with tanks it takes gear and skills change but if you're on PC then addons take care of that also in 2 sec. No need to change cp, mundus or attributes. With just gear and skills change you can easily pull 20-30k dps single target self buffed, which is enough for anything overland.

So I take it you are in the “nerf tanks then wonder why few people play them” camp…

Tanks can do that sure… OR a player can just NOT be a tank, clear content much faster, have more content open to them, and not have to change gear or skills at all.

So what do you think would be the more popular choice?

peacenote

akl77 wrote: »

I’d hate it if there’s a real healer or real tank in a dungeon, I hope it’s 4 dps for fast run experience and get it done and over with. Your abilities already have self heal, and who needs heal in a dungeon. Taunt is easy by slot inner fire for boss. Put dark convergence on, all adds are grouped why need a tank? Letting 2 dps to do damages in a dungeon takes way longer, not even efficient. If you really wanna see tank and healer fulfill their job and shine, play vet trials.

We eventually won't BE in your vet trials if we aren't welcome in your dungeons, as there won't be any of us left.

BlueRaven

Look, bribing players to play unpopular roles in dungeons is not a solution. All that is doing is trying to fix the after effects of bad game design.

All roles should be equally fun to play, and they are obviously not.

Want the solution? Here it is. For all you non-tanks out there, beyond bribery, think to yourselves what would make you play a tank.

That is the solution.

Grandchamp1989

BlueRaven wrote: »

Look, bribing players to play unpopular roles in dungeons is not a solution. All that is doing is trying to fix the after effects of bad game design.

All roles should be equally fun to play, and they are obviously not.

Want the solution? Here it is. For all you non-tanks out there, beyond bribery, think to yourselves what would make you play a tank.

That is the solution.

This is incredibly spot on!

I remember playing Tanks in Overwatch where Tanks could make a ton of damage..
they usually had to find a good balance between offense and team defense.

Then I started tanking ESO and noticed it is 99% defense.
taunting one enemy at a time, keeping buffs up and use sets that benefit everyone but yourself.

I Can easily see why that is not appealing to a lot of players.

zelaminator

Bjond wrote: »

they really should remove the ability to do the "random bonus" with a full party of four. Pledges are enough of a reason to do dungeons and a 4xQ does nothing for draining the DFQ.

That would probably be THE worst move to make.. removing our RND bonus would remove the best source of transmutation crystals

etchedpixels

akl77 wrote: »

I’d hate it if there’s a real healer or real tank in a dungeon, I hope it’s 4 dps for fast run experience and get it done and over with. Your abilities already have self heal, and who needs heal in a dungeon. Taunt is easy by slot inner fire for boss. Put dark convergence on, all adds are grouped why need a tank? Letting 2 dps to do damages in a dungeon takes way longer, not even efficient. If you really wanna see tank and healer fulfill their job and shine, play vet trials.

That depends how your tank and healer are geared. The debuffs and stacking often outweigh the extra dps advantages, and I've seen so many groups "speed" run a dungeon with no tank and actually take far longer because they are always running in circles rather than actually doing damage and they aren't getting the buff/debuffs right.

For a 4 DPS run you are far better if you put the "healer" in full DPS gear including dark convergence and slot some buffs and a ground aoe heal. You put a DPS in medusa/mother's sorrow but use some of the armour bits you've got 5000 times already farming and slot a taunt. One of you also carries caltrops.

Healer throws an aoe heal over the tank, someone throws caltrops, dark convergence procs, caltrops trashes their resistances, it all goes boom, next pull. If you have higher self heals you can even drop the aoe heal and proc dc with other skills of choice.

You only actually need the "real" DPS for the boss fights.

It also depends on the dungeon. Most fake groups who get scalecaller peak can't even do normal.

For PUG runs a templar "tank" seems to work really well as you can stack group buffs, heals, taunts, shields, jabs, AoE damage and an execute on one toon.

etchedpixels

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Then I started tanking ESO and noticed it is 99% defense.
taunting one enemy at a time, keeping buffs up and use sets that benefit everyone but yourself.

Except for the hard content look instead at elements of the PvP builds, where you've got a defensive bar (when the boss gets a bit rough) and a beating the crap out of things bar. For normal content you don't need to give up much DPS on a tank if you choose to build that way. Most normal content you can do easily with 64 in magicka, light armour and maybe chest/legs heavy if you want, providing you can keep shields or heals up. It's slightly harder to do with stam toons but a pure stamina warden in the right mix of gear certainly works well as a DPS/tank.

In fact for all but the harder end game content you can take a DPS. stuff plague doctor on as one set and a taunt and you are able to tank it just fine.

sarahthes

I have actual tank characters but when I do random normals I use a DPS so I can be sure things will actually die. I only tank random normals with people I know.

Amottica

BlueRaven wrote: »

The best solution would be to make tanks and healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.

I have enjoyed questing on my tank. I merely swap some skills and gear, easy enough, and can dps on one bar and still tank a WB on the back bar. It works well.

However, in speaking to tanks in my guilds the reason they refuse to queue solo via the GF is that the DPS of the DDs in the GF is often fairly low. I have to agree with them. They run exclusively with guildmates since even their social guild members will at the least do some decent DPS. As I noted earlier, with low CP I carried GF groups as I did more than 50% of the damage even though I was still healing, sending out orbs, applying magicka steal, and no one died. Sadly that says much.

Redguards_Revenge

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Rofl the reason why healer and tanks don't exist in this game is because ZoS phases them out constantly with gears and make the game a DPS race. The trials usually need tanks, but the regular 4 mans, 3DPS + 1 healer...if your dps is god teir just go 4 DPS and finish the dungeon in minutes.

Now for the DLC dungeons, I am not 100% sure. I haven't been going to DLC dungeons in a while.

Your solution is flawed.

We have DPS that can heal out a lot of damage and so can tank out a lot of damage. In other words, it's abusable and doesn't solve the problem.

I have a solution I wrote it but I deleted it.

It's not sexy to be a Tank or a Healer. DPS get's all the fame.

Where do you see ANY ESO videos saying "50k HEALING CRIT!!!!" or "TANK SURVIVES X!!!" or " HEALER SAVES TEAM FROM WIPE!!!"

What healing builds or tank builds have been created? Most healers and tanks also DPS. Otherwise they are deemed worthless.

PVP = Burst DPS. Who ever get's the shot off first akin to first person shooters. However, instead of ZoS putting in cool pvp things like grenades, land mines, etc, to ward off these trigger happy people. They reinforce it by adding more sets.

Nah, Zos need to change those alliance war skills. grenades do 50% (if you have 25% health, you are dead because it does a static 50% health damage not the remaining of your 25%) of health damage near center and lower further away. Shrapnel from them puts major (whatever is on caltrops) . Can be morphed to increase radius or turned into Heal grenade. 75% Health damage at center land mines. The cost to throw one or set one would be 75% of your highest resource. Would really bring a new dimension to pvp. If we are doing burst damages and ball zergs, give us the SKILLS to ward them off.

Wait I am getting off track here.

It's simply not cool to be Tank or DPS so nobody is going to be it. In the old MMO tanks were needed, healers were needed. I loved being Tank or Healer. In ESO, healing is auto. No decisions are made. 4 DPS 4 The Win.

Troodon80

For people saying that tanking is not enjoyable, I have to strongly disagree. I've done all content in this game and I main DK tank, but have all classes. The "unfun" part comes when you go into veteran Fungal Grotto I and spend an hour waiting for your DDs to kill something because you're doing over 50% of the group DPS with 5k mainly by spamming Stone Giant or Jabs or Crystal Weapon. There's a reason why few end-game tanks solo queue. Solo queue can be a nightmare, but that doesn't make the role "not enjoyable."

The suggestions made by the original poster fails to adequately address the issue. Anyone can slot a taunt. Anyone can slot a heal. In most cases, any system of "reward" would only incentivise even more abuse of an already-faulty system, espcially considering how the stamina range taunt now allows the caster to deal more damage, this even incentivises a DD to use that and gain the "tank" extra-special-bonus-reward-that's-only-meant-for-tanks.

Some other suggestions (not specific to this thread) say "you have to queue with one-hand and shield" -- why? Double ice staff works fine as long as you have a source of Minor Breach; e.g. Templar tank. "You need to queue with an ice staff." Why? Some magicka DDs use a Minor Brittle setup with one ice staff, they technically qualify, right? "You need to queue with certain skills; e.g. melee taunt." So you queue and never use them. Or in the worst case you queue and just swap your gear and skills once you get into the dungeon assuming no checks are done for the duration of the dungeon.

The suggestions made by some others saying that incoming damage needs to be high enough that only a real tank can take it are also off-point. ZOS has started doing this in more recent content with health scaling damage, be it direct damage or from unavoidable and unpurgeable DoTs. This is not fun. Watching your health bounce around like a yo-yo (even as a DD in Dread Cellar) hoping the healer is sufficient to keep you alive while you spam shields, self-heals, etc... I repeat, this is not fun or engaging or entertaining. Please stop asking for this.

The thread, by the way, as well as the underlying issue, should encompass all "fake" roles, including DDs who cannot meet a minimum DPS, thus making the tank role less desirable to play in solo queues. But, likewise, such a system would quite frankly be impossible to implement.

The simple fact is, the system is flawed. Considering the game's mantra of playing how you want, there is no easy way to fix it -- if there even is a way at all -- and almost all suggestion threads about this fall considerably short of making any real dent in the issue when put under scrutiny. This isn't WoW or FFXIV. Their roles, their jobs and classes, their queue systems are fundementally different on a completely incomparable level. Either the mantra of playing how you want needs to change or you, the player, need to embrace the system for what it is.

The basic take-away from this, the TL;DR version: Find friends, join guilds, and do the content together. That's really the only way to "fix" it.

/End wall of text

Bealeb319

This is only really an issue for some vet dungeons honestly most dungeons you should be able to get through without a tank or healer and honestly you are better off for it because it makes the dungeons go faster...there shouldn't be a reward for queing up as a real tank or real healer maybe get rid of the vet que and force people to recruit groups or give a 5 minute grace period where you can leave the group without penalty in the case it is clear that the group will fail.

Ashenkin

IMO This all comes down to difficulty and role significance. If the dungeon you're running imposes little to no threat on you as a DD to pull and stack the mobs then burn them down with the boss... why not do it?

to not wait for others is just people being selfish, but it has nothing to do with fake tanking/healing... it's a totally different thing. I run as a fake tank to get a faster queue but I wait for others to do their quests and loot chests and stuff ofc while trying not to bolt ahead before I make sure they're keeping up, also I slot inner beast for bosses which increases my dmg + taunts them.

I think ZoS made a mistake when they made transmute crystals farm tied to doing random normal dungeons... it created this situation we have.

LashanW

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

Completing a tough veteran DLC hardmode pledge gives you 5 transmute crystals. A simple 5-10 minute base game Random normal dungeon gives 10 crystals. That's the same crystal reward as clearing a vet hm trial so well that you get on weekly leaderboard. See the issue here?

Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.

Xebov

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

The solution is making Healers and Tanks playable outside of Dungeons and Trials.

Everytime such an idea pops up ppl try to solve the issue of fake Tanks/Healers for DDs, but nearly noone tries to solve the reason why there are so few Tanks and Healers in the first place. Most of the game is DD focuses. The only exceptions are Dungeons, Trials, Team Arenas. Every real Tanks and Healer is more or less forced to maintain a DD build for everything else because even Questing is nearly unplayable as a real Tank/Healer.

Arkew

if you want stop dd from tag as fake tank healer do spirit buff/nerf like in pvp but for each role , you nerf tank and healer dmg with the nerf of role by 90 % and they gonna be useless and fastly kicked

tripp

Dedicated tanks & healers are only necessary for the hardest content. I will tank normals using 2h and while wearing only pants and boots and there's nothing you can do about it.

Arkew

and accessory i not tag with my real tank/healer for 2 reason

as tank you can have all armor /health + magma shell, the one shot still a one shot so a tank is not really a tank if he die from one hit.

as healer it's frustrating to can't save ppl when he got one shotted.

zelaminator

Arkew wrote: »

if you want stop dd from tag as fake tank healer do spirit buff/nerf like in pvp but for each role , you nerf tank and healer dmg with the nerf of role by 90 % and they gonna be useless and fastly kicked

Another bad suggestion.. if they did that, what about groups of friends wanting to play together.. people easily capable of doing the content with 4 DD's.. A nerf is not the solution..

Troodon80

zelaminator wrote: »

Arkew wrote: »

if you want stop dd from tag as fake tank healer do spirit buff/nerf like in pvp but for each role , you nerf tank and healer dmg with the nerf of role by 90 % and they gonna be useless and fastly kicked

Another bad suggestion.. if they did that, what about groups of friends wanting to play together.. people easily capable of doing the content with 4 DD's.. A nerf is not the solution..

While I do agree that it's not a great suggestion, it is one of the better/more feasible ones.

There is already a little-known dungeon queue bonus (whether it works or not has been hotly debated over the years) that was/is supposed to act in a similar way to Battle Spirit in PvP, giving certain bonuses for that area (dungeon); adding weapon/spell damage and such when getting teleported into a dungeon from the Group & Activity Finder. Such a system could also be implemented in a way that full pre-made groups are unaffected and that a "debuff" as such would only apply if the group is under 4 players (after all, the server has to determine who is in a group when queuing so you don't all get thrown into your own, different, individual groups), and would reinforce the traditional trinity outside of full pre-made groups.

4DD random normal groups would then be unaffected (whether friends, guild members, or zone chat groups), while those solo queuing would see queuing as their appropriate role more desirable.

ssewallb14_ESO

Make the base game dungeons hurt again.

If you ran into a trash pack on banished cells back in early 1.6 and were not a tank you would instantly die in 7k archer fire. There weren't many fake tanks back then. This would also deal with the DPS that run past everything to the boss.

sharpshooter2342

The real reason real tanks don't que is because of low dps. Nobody wants to spend 30 minutes on 1 boss in a base game dungeon. This includes normals. I main a tank and for that reason alone I will not que without at least 1 friend that has great damage. Maybe there were more explanation in game on learning a rotation for dps and light attack weaving and how buffs work it would be better. There are people that literally just stand and only light attack or spam 1 skill. No dots nothing. Just 1 skill or light attack. Therefore they are not doing their job as dps. There are way too many guide videos out there for anyone to be a bad dps. Low dps makes painfully slow and boring on tanks also makes it much more difficult. As OP suggested about the healing done or damage absorbed there equally needs to be one for damage done. Combat metrics after dungeons would be wonderful and would maybe show players they need to work on stuff.

Soulshine

LashanW wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

Completing a tough veteran DLC hardmode pledge gives you 5 transmute crystals. A simple 5-10 minute base game Random normal dungeon gives 10 crystals. That's the same crystal reward as clearing a vet hm trial so well that you get on weekly leaderboard. See the issue here?

Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.

THIS^^^ about 1000% this.

I am pretty sick of dungeon dailies, and really detest having to grind them just for transmutes. They long since lost their luster. I find it really pitiful that you can get transmutes from pvp, from dungeons, but you basically get squat rewards from trials beside gear and some measly gold. Heck even xp gain is terrible, despite the oodles of trash you might kill, which are often more of a pain to do sometimes than the bosses, lol.

Mandragora

I prefer healer over dps because for some reason I never get high enough dps, while healer is fine and I just like to heal people. I do have a tank, but I don't use it because it does require good knowledge of dungs (random can get you into the ones I never did), good orientation in the dung (mod for minimap) and if anything goes wrong they blame tank and vote for kick, which can be quite often if you don't know the boss mechanics and there is no aoe taunt, so you can taunt the wrong mob.

Dauntess13

It's a combination of things as to why there's so few tanks. I've mained tanks in MMOs for a long time and this is the least fun tanking or had. Once I found tormentor, Templar combo with AoE taunt did I start to enjoy it somewhat. They need to start off by giving an AoE and give tanks more access to AoE pulls. Those two things will help speed up dungeons and make tanking more fun by letting them focus on other things.

As far as the "fakes", I think normal content should got a little harder and you always require who ever ques as tanks to have a taunt on their bar, but I can see how that limit players loadouts.

midgetfromtheshire

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

So what's the arbitrary number for minimum healing or taunting that makes you a real healer/tank? DD's that queue as DD, wipe everything and run ahead means you just penalised what you consider real tanks/healers because they couldn't keep up.

KhajiitLivesMatter

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

easy play mag blade flag as healer = u heal more than most randos and can still solo nearly every boss

THERE IS NO FIX FOR FAKE ROLES LIVE WITH IT

Nogawd

It's not a "problem" with gameplay, but more a personal problem with these complainers.

In normals of course no roles matter. 4 decent dps will clear the dungeon faster than any other group.

In most of these threads they are not even talking veteran runs so that's irrelevant discussion.

It's back to it just being a personal problem.

I think it's from low dps players that want protection from a tank and a healer, even in easy mode dungeons.

It's like they want dungeons to be like overland content.

Ishtarknows

Merforum wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
apply for Normal Random dungeons with
groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
question if the reward is for backfilling
specific queue and helping players should
premades even get the same reward.

I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too