How to fix the "fake tank & healer" problem

Vhozek

If player in Tank role doesn't take more than X amount of damage, no loot, no exp.
If player in Healer role doesn't heal more than X amount of damage, no loot, no exp.

josiahva

Speaking as a tank who has now stopped playing ESO....the reason I stopped playing is because of the constant punishments for playing tank roles. These changes were aimed for the most part at PvP, but I have given up on ESO because ZOS makes it absolutely miserable to play a tank. The new CP system was the last straw for me, it shoehorned you way too much into a specific box, it used to be I could off-DPS or off-heal as I tanked...but after that change that was no longer viable at all...now you do pitiful damage as a tank even if geared as off-DPS...which is one of the reasons those that queue for the tank role are now pure DPS, because they can no longer do both like they used to. Obviously I am not speaking about trials where a real tank is needed, just dungeons and the like where you could multi-role. At this point the problem is structural with ESO, so I decided to pursue other MMOs. I don't really expect it to be much better there...but it sure can't be worse.

M0ntie

ZOS does need to do something to either motivate or prevent players not even attempting to fulfil a role that they signed up for. Especially normal dungeons don't need tanks and healers that are spec'd as pure tank / heal, but if you queue as a role, you should come prepared to fulfil it. As a bare minimum, as a tank you need to hold taunt and as a healer you need to heal other people. I pug random normal dungeons every day with the healer role - I'm on a dps spec'd character but I always have at least 2 group heals (and I get thanked for being a "real" healer).
ZoS are making dungeons need all roles more - DLCs even on normal are mostly horrible without a tank who at least holds taunt. And about 30% of the time if the queue pops a DLC, the tank leaves - so sick of that.
I don't think there is a silver bullet fix to this, but ZoS could do somethings to help.
My suggestions:
To queue as a tank, you must have a taunt equipped. To queue as a healer you must have at least 1 group heal equipped.
Make the cool down for abandoning a random normal in the first 10 minutes account wide and 30 minutes.

Merforum

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And what about fake DDs?

There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.

Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

This is a bald faced lie, I like how you change it to compare the damage between tank and healer to the DDs instead of just saying DDs are only doing X DPS. First of all if the fake tank/healer is an experienced DD obviously they will be doing more DPS than a beginner player (who almost all start out playing as DD) BECAUSE THEY AREN'T doing their proper role.

When I first started doing dungeons, I was a beginner DD and the tank and healer were ALWAYS REAL and usually quite experienced and NEVER bitched about our DPS (even though THEIR DPS WAS HIGHER, while still healing and tanking) but instead would spend many hours training and helping others get through it. Those days are over and those cool people have been replaced by extreme selfish people.

Facefister

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And what about fake DDs?

There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.

Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

This is a bald faced lie, I like how you change it to compare the damage between tank and healer to the DDs instead of just saying DDs are only doing X DPS. First of all if the fake tank/healer is an experienced DD obviously they will be doing more DPS than a beginner player (who almost all start out playing as DD) BECAUSE THEY AREN'T doing their proper role.

When I first started doing dungeons, I was a beginner DD and the tank and healer were ALWAYS REAL and usually quite experienced and NEVER bitched about our DPS (even though THEIR DPS WAS HIGHER, while still healing and tanking) but instead would spend many hours training and helping others get through it. Those days are over and those cool people have been replaced by extreme selfish people.

Let me translate that,
"It doesn't matter how much DPS I do! I am a DD and that's that! I often decided to join group content without proper preparation and exercise, and much more experienced people carried my deceptive ignorance. Furthermore, I am mad now because people in general are fed up, and I have a hard time to insert myself into dungeon runs, where I don't even contribute the bare minimum of performance."

Nagastani

Introduce a simple but private rating system. So if you're a Tank, then at the end of run (only at certain times, like at the very end of a run or if the group disbands early) your group can choose to rate your performance between 0 to 5 stars. Comments can be optional if the player will allow them.

And so anyone part of a group, has access to view everyone's rep per dungeon, even before joining a group and then a separate avg rating overall for every player that provides a signature of their successes without violating anyone's right to privacy. Players can opt out of this however... in doing so they cannot claim anything special against proven 4 and 5 star roles. PvE Credit Score baby.

There, everyone thank me later I have just exorcised yo demons with the flip of a switch. Should think about setting this up for PvP too lol.

Nagastani

josiahva wrote: »

Speaking as a tank who has now stopped playing ESO....the reason I stopped playing is because of the constant punishments for playing tank roles. These changes were aimed for the most part at PvP, but I have given up on ESO because ZOS makes it absolutely miserable to play a tank. The new CP system was the last straw for me, it shoehorned you way too much into a specific box, it used to be I could off-DPS or off-heal as I tanked...but after that change that was no longer viable at all...now you do pitiful damage as a tank even if geared as off-DPS...which is one of the reasons those that queue for the tank role are now pure DPS, because they can no longer do both like they used to. Obviously I am not speaking about trials where a real tank is needed, just dungeons and the like where you could multi-role. At this point the problem is structural with ESO, so I decided to pursue other MMOs. I don't really expect it to be much better there...but it sure can't be worse.

I have a confession to make ... I'm right here on the same page with this ^

There are many conflicts to be ironed out, many solutions that I can no longer get out of the CP system, such as structuring my Mitigation *exactly* as I need it to be. Gosh this sounds like another discussion I just had about DPS. But anyways, yes there are lots of gaps now and I think I'll also be forced to retire from Tanking as well.

Hey it was fun, was a good run, I enjoyed what I was doing and also liked helping possibly hundreds of different groups over the years, this includes carries, norm and vet. But as they said, all good things must end but death and taxes are here with us forever.

Nagastani

The problem is this and I'll let it drop.

If you look around the forums or listen closely in game, everyone wants a Traditional Tank.

Alright stop right there. So what people are really asking for is a Tank who provides similar performance in blocking 'like a Traditional Tank'. But alas, these are not the same. They cannot be.

A Traditional Tank requires what... a Traditional Group right? Its not just about the Tank its about how the group performs. But the problem is the groups don't perform. And whose to say why, maybe they don't know how or they don't really want to do the run just want the loot. I'm not here to judge.

What I can tell you though, is this CP is not sufficient for think of it like a Red Tank whose living on the edge running ppl thru 4 man raids or popping in to help with improv trial runs. Ok, that is NOT a Traditional Tank. But thru these limited CP options we have now a Red Tank cannot continue to exist without trying to make up for the difference in mitigation and regular bonuses lost from CP with sets they would not normally need. In other words, once again we're forced to go in a foreign direction trying to build something that we already know from experience will NOT serve anyone well.

And some will argue and say well tough they shouldn't get a free pass... but the thing is, everyone in their minds is looking for a Traditional Tank yet this 'thing' only exists in certain well-organized guilds and groups. My point is this. For most runs in game, you don't need a Traditional Tank... you do need someone to take point who acts as a Tank but is not necessarily a Tank. As a case in point, as I've noticed others mentioning, a 3rd or 4th DPS is what... taking up the role of what was the Red Tank. So Healer and Tank are now DPS for many groups. I respect anyone who thinks that isn't so... but it is. And if I may, that's why your Tanks are going away. Because the new CP favors dmg over tanking and its not at all friendly to tanking, we can't reasonably hit certain numbers we need to inspire confidence in the role. So your Tanks of yesterday have evolved into a 3rd or 4th DPS today.

As long as ZOS keeps running with the crowd who is seeking to scale back our options, the game will continue to have breaks. Because there is no point in me running a Traditional Tank build intended for a well organized group on simple 4 man runs. There needs to be a reset here where we being given back our options to make the builds that we need rather than chasing ideas that sound good on paper yet are not applicable to every situation even though they are thought to be.

Merforum

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And what about fake DDs?

There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.

Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

This is a bald faced lie, I like how you change it to compare the damage between tank and healer to the DDs instead of just saying DDs are only doing X DPS. First of all if the fake tank/healer is an experienced DD obviously they will be doing more DPS than a beginner player (who almost all start out playing as DD) BECAUSE THEY AREN'T doing their proper role.

When I first started doing dungeons, I was a beginner DD and the tank and healer were ALWAYS REAL and usually quite experienced and NEVER bitched about our DPS (even though THEIR DPS WAS HIGHER, while still healing and tanking) but instead would spend many hours training and helping others get through it. Those days are over and those cool people have been replaced by extreme selfish people.

Let me translate that,
"It doesn't matter how much DPS I do! I am a DD and that's that! I often decided to join group content without proper preparation and exercise, and much more experienced people carried my deceptive ignorance. Furthermore, I am mad now because people in general are fed up, and I have a hard time to insert myself into dungeon runs, where I don't even contribute the bare minimum of performance."

This is pathetic projection. I ONLY do pugs as REAL tank or healer. DD is for beginners and is boring.

I'll translate: you are DD who is jumping the Q as a FAKE tank or FAKE healer, you know it is wrong and stupid and know that nobody agrees that this is OK, so you lash out at anyone who brings up the subject by making up a PHONY 'fake DD' complaint that does NOT EXIST. Then without any evidence accuse people who bring up this topic as being the phantom 'fake DD' that you just made up. Nobody believes this so don't make yourself look silly by repeating this.

Thealteregoroman

josiahva wrote: »

Speaking as a tank who has now stopped playing ESO....the reason I stopped playing is because of the constant punishments for playing tank roles. These changes were aimed for the most part at PvP, but I have given up on ESO because ZOS makes it absolutely miserable to play a tank. The new CP system was the last straw for me, it shoehorned you way too much into a specific box, it used to be I could off-DPS or off-heal as I tanked...but after that change that was no longer viable at all...now you do pitiful damage as a tank even if geared as off-DPS...which is one of the reasons those that queue for the tank role are now pure DPS, because they can no longer do both like they used to. Obviously I am not speaking about trials where a real tank is needed, just dungeons and the like where you could multi-role. At this point the problem is structural with ESO, so I decided to pursue other MMOs. I don't really expect it to be much better there...but it sure can't be worse.

Very interesting…

Grandchamp1989

After Greymoor my experience with the dungeon finder soured quite a bit.

Now a day my experience with the dungeon finder is utter and pure anarchy even in vet.

Rarely any role perform to any sort of minimum standard in vet.

I don't know what the solution is but I hope Zos takes a look at it and start to implement.. something to start fixing the problem.

I'm not sure if the solution is to start increasing QoL for tanks instead of making it harder every patch (This patch alone mistform and soft taunt is gone) or to regulate transmutes or to look at role requirement. At this point I don't even care but I would love for Zos to re-visit the dungeon finder.

spartaxoxo

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And what about fake DDs?

There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.

Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

This is a bald faced lie, I like how you change it to compare the damage between tank and healer to the DDs instead of just saying DDs are only doing X DPS. First of all if the fake tank/healer is an experienced DD obviously they will be doing more DPS than a beginner player (who almost all start out playing as DD) BECAUSE THEY AREN'T doing their proper role.

When I first started doing dungeons, I was a beginner DD and the tank and healer were ALWAYS REAL and usually quite experienced and NEVER bitched about our DPS (even though THEIR DPS WAS HIGHER, while still healing and tanking) but instead would spend many hours training and helping others get through it. Those days are over and those cool people have been replaced by extreme selfish people.

Let me translate that,
"It doesn't matter how much DPS I do! I am a DD and that's that! I often decided to join group content without proper preparation and exercise, and much more experienced people carried my deceptive ignorance. Furthermore, I am mad now because people in general are fed up, and I have a hard time to insert myself into dungeon runs, where I don't even contribute the bare minimum of performance."

This is pathetic projection. I ONLY do pugs as REAL tank or healer. DD is for beginners and is boring.

I'll translate: you are DD who is jumping the Q as a FAKE tank or FAKE healer, you know it is wrong and stupid and know that nobody agrees that this is OK, so you lash out at anyone who brings up the subject by making up a PHONY 'fake DD' complaint that does NOT EXIST. Then without any evidence accuse people who bring up this topic as being the phantom 'fake DD' that you just made up. Nobody believes this so don't make yourself look silly by repeating this.

Fake DDs DO exist and ARE a problem. I have a real tank but I barely ever play it. The reason is simple. I tried playing a real tank but got too many fake dps in my pugs. I would much rather fake tank for one less key than endure the horrendous dps that comes from fake dps. They are not trying to fulfil their role and playing however they want. So they have no right to get mad at others doing the same. That they are fakes largely due to negligence or (largely willful) ignorance rather than intentional deceit does NOT excuse that they are not fulfilling their roles.

You don't have to be a fraud to be a fake.