How to fix the "fake tank & healer" problem

WhyMustItBe

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Deep_01

Isn't it easier to pre-group with guild/zone players?

gariondavey

Here we go again...

Eiregirl

That may have worked well on your server in WOW but the servers I played on after the first couple of months of an expansion it was back to normal especially when people got geared up.

As it has been mentioned several times on these forums there really is only one way fake tanks, healers or even dps in a random will ever be fixed and that would be to make every dungeon absolutely require an actual tank to take damage from multiple mobs and from bosses that is to high for anyone other than a true tank to survive. An actual healer to heal the tanks missing health back up and spread some out to the dps that with the new system have learned they need to let the tank go first or they will absolutely die.

This has been talked about for years on the forums and without something like this to change the communities mindset it will not happen.

GET OVER IT BECAUSE WITHOUT A SYSTEM LIKE THIS IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

You have people that enjoy solo play or like to play with one or two friends only. So I would suggest putting this kind of system in the game for the group finder only but would be fine with it being for all group dungeons but then there would be another uprising because people would say the dungeons are to hard.

Ballermfrau

Make daily random dungeon rewards account wide.

I'm sure some people have 18 toons all "healers" or "tanks"


About gear farming, make a perfected version of dungeon gear for vet. So people actually have to do something for the gear besides brain afk farming

Folkb

Meh. Seems overly complicated of a solution.

kargen27

Sometimes in a good group healing isn't needed as much. healer does more buff and debuff than healing. So what happens to the healers rewards in that situation?
Arx is one of those dungeons where healing really isn't needed. I could see a scenario where DPS is in short supply because everybody queues as a healer and slots one spam heal on their backbar hoping for the extra drop.

I suggest we allow players to opt out of traditionally formed groups. If a player doesn't care what roles are in the group they can queue for a group that might end up all DPS. The group finder would fill traditional groups first prioritizing players that want the traditional group then just start sticking people together first come first serve no matter the role. If DPS could opt for a non traditional group maybe they wouldn't feel the need to fake a role.

ixthUA

Healers and tanks arent really needed in normal dungeons. If there was an extra reward i would still continue doing vet dungeons.

wolfie1.0.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Sure, but depending on the dungeon, normal/vet and the circumstances I have characters that can preform all 3 roles and solo it.

At the heart of the matter is that with the balancing changes ZOS has made over the last few years they have effectively made it so that in all but the hardest content you don't need a tank. Mainly because you can in many instances bypass mechanics by dpsing the mobs and bosses down before the mechanics trigger. Similarly the game provides multiple means of self healing, taunting, damage mitigation and still allow you to do adequate dps while still sustaining resources. Which means that a classic tank and healer roles don't have as much value.

This is why you have pvp builds that can 1 v x people.

Right now if you don't like fake tanks/healers don't pug. Go with premises. If you don't like speed runs then don't pug go with premades.

Long term ZOS needs to look at and consider how the roles they have function because as it stands they are effectively endorsing the status qou of fake roles

thorwyn

So put yoooooour little hand in miiiine!

Merforum

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only apply for Normal Random dungeons with groups of less than 4 otherwise people will cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the question if the reward is for backfilling specific queue and helping players should premades even get the same reward.

Lady_Galadhiel

Just came here to see what is new and here we go again...
Top 3 subjects what are here each week:
Overland content too easy
Fake tank/healer problem
Game too hard need to be easier so everyone can solo literally everything.

Kusto

How to fix fake tank/healer issue?
Roll one yourself.

lolo_01b16_ESO

How exactly do you think the game could detect a "real" healer?

I'm pretty sure when I play my magicka nb dd in an inexperienced group, my healing done is higher than when I play with a true healer in a group with experienced players.

Hapexamendios

I don't think this would solve anything. People would still line of as fakes regardless.

kojou

Here is how you fix it...

If you queue as a healer or tank your damage is nerfed by 90%.

Indigogo

kojou wrote: »

Here is how you fix it...

If you queue as a healer or tank your damage is nerfed by 90%.

I think this is already in effect by the look of the fakers I encounter.

Amottica

Deep_01 wrote: »

Isn't it easier to pre-group with guild/zone players?

Very true.

As for the suggestion presented, WoW has very defined tank builds where ESO has only one requirement for a tank build and that is having a taunt available. Even requiring a certain percentage of taunt uptime is not a good measure meant as most stuff in the dungeon dies too fast to make taunting worthwhile unless the DPS is bad.

Amottica

kojou wrote: »

Here is how you fix it...

If you queue as a healer or tank your damage is nerfed by 90%.

Sadly this would not be a good "fix". As a new player ( not very high CP) when I queue solo as a healer my damage is often more than 50% and I am still healing and no one is dying. Basically, I am carrying the group so nerfing the healer's damage contribution is not such a great idea.

From what I have heard from tanks is they avoid using the GF because of the low damage they often find in GF groups. Solve this issue and the healer's damage will not be as important and tanks may start using the GF again. Everyone's problem is solved.

Nagastani

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

Let's just take a step back and think about this because I don't think you really understand why this is happening...

- Let's start by assuming that the actions of other people, especially running ahead, swapping heals for DPS, Tanks who are also DPS, not waiting for group members or communicating regularly, no taunt slotted etc... Let's start by assuming that none of this stuff is intended to be a personnel thing against anyone else necessarily. I am guilty of doing this also and will continue to be so. Why? Am I being selfish, well perhaps a little bit. But that's not the point.

You brought up the Medusa run for farming that set... it should hopefully be obvious to everyone involved in especially that run, people are just there for the gear. Like 99.99% of players are just there to get their jewelry and staff. I did it. I ran with others who did it. Please understand that for players farming gear, it's one of the most boring and time consuming runs in the entire game.

Adding a few extra rewards won't matter because it's not about that for these types of farming runs. People are looking for gear not trying to maintain a traditional group when the run itself is so easy it can be solo'd. Its just really boring and time consuming but we have to do it. You talk about instant gratification right... how is that even possible on this run? Like think about it. Even if we get one or two pieces we need, hah that's not enough.. not even close. It takes NUMEROUS runs to get it all and the same holds true for other gear farming raids as well. No one on that run expects instant gratification... lol we expect quite the opposite actually. In getting my full set of Medusa I had to run it like 35 times and we booked it thru there FAST but then again, that allowed A-LOT of other players to get their gear as well because while not being united as a group, in being there we was -ALL- united under the same *PURPOSE*. And that's why the conflict because the purpose for being there is not the same for everyone yet I think its safe to say it actually is for most.

However I know this can be difficult to understand, especially for new players and I certainly respect everyone's feelings on the matter. But that's just how it goes. Antiquity runs are the same thing, even worse haha. If the Medusa farming run is too much... better stay out of lead hunting in Shadowfen or DSA.

People want their gear and for all practical purposes a group is just par for the course and folks would go in there farming solo if they had to - group or not. I hope that makes sense because this will never change and ppl go there for the gear, not for "general" rewards. I know when I was on round 35 of AC all I was thinking about WAS myself and finally being done with that farming run. Same for Shadowfen, DSA, Imperial City Boss stuff, Badman's Hollow, Imperial City Prison, Bleakrock, Wrothgar and many other memorable locals where I was farming for leads or gear.

akl77

I’d hate it if there’s a real healer or real tank in a dungeon, I hope it’s 4 dps for fast run experience and get it done and over with. Your abilities already have self heal, and who needs heal in a dungeon. Taunt is easy by slot inner fire for boss. Put dark convergence on, all adds are grouped why need a tank? Letting 2 dps to do damages in a dungeon takes way longer, not even efficient. If you really wanna see tank and healer fulfill their job and shine, play vet trials.

Saieden

I'm not really bothered by it much anymore, at least for normal. Sure there are few dungeons where it can be annoying, but as long as everyone can at least hold their own and screw up the mechanicsbwhile those that know them can do them (like grabbing oil in Cauldron and not blowing up conduits), it's whatever.

What I do find infuriating however is when players rush ahead and lock you out of completing the quest. Selenes Web is a good example as its easy to lock the group in combat all the way to first boss, preventing you from being able to talk to the npc.

It's really simple to fix: remove skill points from dungeon quests, add them to Vanquisher achievements. You also remove the problem of having to do the entire dungeon again because someone ran into an arena and locked you out from getting the boss kill.

ResidentContrarian

Community problems must be solved by the community with community solutions. You cannot look to the dev team to solve every issue you have.

zelaminator

Yet another horrible idea rolls out.. "counts how much healing you do as a healer".. I have many many times ended up in a dungeon with 3 people using pale order.. And that ring is only getting more popular.. so now I can't heal, therefore your "fix" will see me as a fake healer.. bad idea

DestroyerPewnack

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

How exactly do you think the game could detect a "real" healer?

I'm pretty sure when I play my magicka nb dd in an inexperienced group, my healing done is higher than when I play with a true healer in a group with experienced players.

It could be calculated relative to other players in your group. Tracking healing and damage done already exists in battlegrounds. Not saying I think OP's suggestion is a good one. Just saying, it could be done, and wouldn't require much effort by the devs.

Bjond

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

This works in FFXIV very well, but that game has a plethora of bonuses designed around the DFQ: bonus for Q'ing as mentor, as the "class most missing from the DFQ right now" (usually tank, sometimes healer), and even a bonus for everyone else if you queue as a newbie (a lesson/carry bonus).

It's an amazing system that works phenomenally well. It works so well, that newbies are cheered when they enter a group. You'll get 4~5 tells as a brand spanking new player there asking if you need help with anything. It's crazy. It's like being love-bombed by a cult.

~=~=~=~=~

The above is just how it works in FFXIV. ESO has different issues. Tanks are superfluous in normal. An extra gear reward is pointless for most chars and absolutely pointless as a reward for RANDOM queueing. Bonus XP would have me Q'ing my tank or heal non-stop if it was as much or more than the current daily bonus, but once I have over 1600~2k CP, I likely won't care. What else is left as a bonus? Motifs might do it.

But as much as I'd currently enjoy an XP bonus, I think progress here can be made without bonuses. For ESO, I'd start VERY small and add just ONE new feature lifted from other MMOs: if you put someone on /ignore, you are never put into a DFQ with them again or vice versa. It's the most basic social engineering feature you can add to support the players using the DFQ.

IMHO, adding that feature will seriously cut down on all kinds of anti-social play styles, especially queue-jumping.

Jamdarius

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

You see the problem but you cannot nail where it is exactly.

The problem is tanking in ESO is not fun for most players, they would need to change it to something else because while it is certainly unique people clearly do not like to tank as much, because of that the queue times go up and people who want to let's say pop into dungeon do a fast run before/after work/school and be done with the bonus have to queue as fake tank or heal. Another problem is DPS classes have 2 easy access to self-healing, I mean why do I even need a healer for normal random non dlc again? I can run them solo unless some specific mechanics need 2 players..., that makes no sense although I like it personally I know it is bad for keeping healthy group content. The solution is not making being tank get more rewards or something like that, they just need to change the way tanking works and make playing it be more fun for players.

ESO is the only mmo game in which I hate to be tank and I simply do not have tank.

BlueRaven

The best solution would be to make tanks and healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

But hey, let’s keep nerfing their damage so it takes forever to burn down a regular overland mob, then collectively scratch our heads wondering why no one plays them.

svendf

Only way to fix it, do as FF14. There are players, who will do it their own way and don´t want to or feel they have to respect other group members need for quest or relaxing gameplay or deep into roles (tank, healer, DD).

People, who feel they don´t need to or want to respect other group members needs should form their own groups and not as now - being all over the place.

An official tool as DF is, should not be a playground for griefing and asocial behavior. If people want to run their own version of buiilds or other special wishes can do so through premade groups.

Sad to say or not. FF14 have been to become my savior. No more dungeons in ESO for me until change or never ever again.

Jamdarius

So basically what we need is better loadout system, where each class and character can be any of the roles. Something like Dressing Room addon but with CP/Skill morphs/Gear/Skill bar/ switching. Respecing char for each content is a pain and having 2 many alts gathering same skill shards same public dungeons and same guild skills leveling is amazingly boring after first 3 times.

Bjond

BlueRaven wrote: »

The best solution would be to make tanks and healers fun to play, and that includes being fun when NOT in a group environment.

Back in FFXIV, I would literally queue my tank over and over and over because it was so fun to play AND it got this great bonus for "queue is short on tanks right now" and it just felt great doing it after hitting mentor level for helping folks.

I'd probably do the same here in ESO if the random bonus was the same as the daily bonus for a tank or heal.

~=~=~=~=~=~

I did think of another perhaps even easier way than adding bonuses: adjust the data people self-provide to the queue to include OTHER paradigms; eg. expand the role list to include dps/tank and heal/tank. Then add match criteria: "OK with anything", "Want real tank & real heal", "OK with heal/tank or dps/tank", etc..

As a teeny tiny first step, they really should remove the ability to do the "random bonus" with a full party of four. Pledges are enough of a reason to do dungeons and a 4xQ does nothing for draining the DFQ.