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How to fix the "fake tank & healer" problem

  • Merforum
    Merforum
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    Merforum wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

    WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

    For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

    This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

    Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

    As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

    I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
    apply for Normal Random dungeons with
    groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
    cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
    question if the reward is for backfilling
    specific queue and helping players should
    premades even get the same reward.

    I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too

    If DPS is too low to complete the dungeon that is already the punishment, and you can kick them and get someone who can complete it. If 'good' DDs stop FAKING and did DD then maybe there would be better DPS all around.

    I never pug as anything but real tank or real healer so saying that bad DDs are ones complain about fakes is projection because it is elitist DDs that fake as tank/healer who are the ones that complain about the non existent low DPS problem. I have never pugged a normal random where the DPS was too low to clear it, this is projection.
  • Merforum
    Merforum
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    LashanW wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
    Completing a tough veteran DLC hardmode pledge gives you 5 transmute crystals. A simple 5-10 minute base game Random normal dungeon gives 10 crystals. That's the same crystal reward as clearing a vet hm trial so well that you get on weekly leaderboard. See the issue here?

    Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.

    This is correct, the reward for random normal should be the 4-10 transmute geode NOT the 10. But keep the 10 for vet random dungeons. And maybe for vet trials too. Maybe add the 4-10 reward to arenas too so there are more ways to get them that doesn't affect other players.
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    And what about fake DDs?
  • Merforum
    Merforum
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    Facefister wrote: »
    And what about fake DDs?

    There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    LashanW wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

    Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.

    Until recently doing dungeons, or even random dungeons, was not a great way to earn crystals. In fact many complained because it was so easy to earn crystals in PvP and PvE seems very neglected. Yet people heavily complained about fake tanks and healers back when this was not a good way to earn crystals. The XP and other bonuses seem very much enough for people to queue as a fake tank or healer.

    So it does not seem that crystals are the driving force.
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    Merforum wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    And what about fake DDs?

    There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
  • orgin_stadia
    orgin_stadia
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    Or perhaps more likely, a bad one :smile:

  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    Merforum wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

    WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

    For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

    This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

    Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

    As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

    I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only apply for Normal Random dungeons with groups of less than 4 otherwise people will cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the question if the reward is for backfilling specific queue and helping players should premades even get the same reward.

    if u would introduce this system like u disribed i would just afk at the spawn and do something else in the meantime lol
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

    WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

    For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

    This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

    Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

    As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

    I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
    apply for Normal Random dungeons with
    groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
    cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
    question if the reward is for backfilling
    specific queue and helping players should
    premades even get the same reward.

    I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too

    If DPS is too low to complete the dungeon that is already the punishment, and you can kick them and get someone who can complete it. If 'good' DDs stop FAKING and did DD then maybe there would be better DPS all around.

    I never pug as anything but real tank or real healer so saying that bad DDs are ones complain about fakes is projection because it is elitist DDs that fake as tank/healer who are the ones that complain about the non existent low DPS problem. I have never pugged a normal random where the DPS was too low to clear it, this is projection.

    yea because there is NO to low dps to clear a dungoen but tbh i dont wanna waste 60min in fungle grotto one cause i do 75% grp dps when i play my normal healer
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    Or perhaps more likely, a bad one :smile:

    than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one
  • Hlaaluna
    Hlaaluna
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    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
  • KhajiitLivesMatter
    KhajiitLivesMatter
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    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.



    than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one

  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.



    than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one

    Stop derailing the thread.

    A fake tank has malicious intent.

    A bad dd just may not understand why they are doing badly.

    The definition of a fake tank (healer) includes the concept that they are playing the system to their advantage by doing a role they have no intention of doing correctly.

    Unless they immediately go afk, there is no such thing as a fake dd just one not playing to your standard.
  • Deter1UK
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    Jamdarius wrote: »
    So basically what we need is better loadout system, where each class and character can be any of the roles. Something like Dressing Room addon but with CP/Skill morphs/Gear/Skill bar/ switching. Respecing char for each content is a pain and having 2 many alts gathering same skill shards same public dungeons and same guild skills leveling is amazingly boring after first 3 times.

    Coming in next update (kinda)
    Edited by Deter1UK on September 20, 2021 11:59AM
  • Deter1UK
    Deter1UK
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    Nagastani wrote: »
    .. it should hopefully be obvious to everyone involved in especially that run, people are just there for the gear. Like 99.99% of players are just there to get their jewelry and staff. I did it. I ran with others who did it. Please understand that for players farming gear, it's one of the most boring and time consuming runs in the entire game.

    It takes NUMEROUS runs to get it all and the same holds true for other gear farming raids as well. No one on that run expects instant gratification... lol we expect quite the opposite actually.

    Well, with the forthcoming RNG changes - weighted to what you don't have - people will have do do far fewer gear runs. Once you take a high percentage of gear runs out of the mix what effect do you think will this have on the queueing population and their behaviour?

  • mekops_ESO
    mekops_ESO
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    by the time i get done slotting skills for fake-healer im actually just a solid magcro dps/heal hybrid. even thats overkill sometimes. there isnt a single non-dlc vet dungeon that Intensive Mender cant readily handle while looking bored next to you(though i usually dont push it. team is the HM in most pugs).

    its the fake tanks without a taunt that bother me
    they mess up my whole little plan XD
    that and leaving the dungeon with +50% group dps as healer with only half my damage abilities slotted
    hate it
  • Bobby's_UserID
    Bobby's_UserID
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The definition of a fake tank (healer) includes the concept that they are playing the system to their advantage by doing a role they have no intention of doing correctly.

    What do you think is the correct way to play a tank? Should I just stand there before the boss, hold block and hope my 15k group dps will burn it eventually? Cause that's whats happening on my "real" tank (DK with PA, pYolna, Encratis's). Fun gameplay, also the reason I will never pug as a real tank again.
    Or can I taunt the boss, heal myself and do 60% of the groups dps? (Magblade with Medusa, pFG, 2Crit) Sure, the group will be missing some buffs, but even with buffs, the groups dps will be lower, so why bother?
    Do I play the role correctly, when I absorb all the dmg in the dungeon, taunt all bosses and not run away from my group?

    And the only intent that I have, is to get my reward for the day before I die of old age. I could not care less for transmutes nor do I care for any dungeon gear, even less so with the new rng system next patch. One very simple way that would stop fake tanks is to give the 100k xp reward for completing the first dungeon, regardless of grouping for it or just soloing it. Or make a "I don't care about the group composition, just give me 3 other people for my daily reward"-queue, where you just group with the first other 3 people that queue there. Let us have 4 dd's, if we are all contempt with it.
    Edited by Bobby's_UserID on September 20, 2021 12:30PM
  • Deter1UK
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    Or can I taunt the boss, heal myself and do 60% of the groups dps? (Magblade with Medusa, pFG, 2Crit) Sure, the group will be missing some buffs, but even with buffs, the groups dps will be lower, so why bother?
    Do I play the role correctly, when I absorb all the dmg in the dungeon, taunt all bosses and not run away from my group?

    I'd say you do.

    I thought the definition of tank was Taunt + ability to absorb damage and stay on your feet plus enough knowledge of mechanics to keep boss turned away from group and so on. Everything else is icing on the cake isn't it?.
  • orgin_stadia
    orgin_stadia
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    What do you think is the correct way to play a tank?

    For me it would be taunting.

    I don't know how many annoying runs I've done with everyone else in the group is just standing around waiting for me as a DD to jump in first and then me having to kite around everything just focusing on not getting one shotted rather than actually putting in those deeps.

    I'm cp 1470+, which isn't particularly impressive ofc, but I get the impression that a lot of players think that anyone with higher cp than themselves can jump in and tank it for them regardless of role.

  • Xebov
    Xebov
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.



    than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one

    Stop derailing the thread.

    A fake tank has malicious intent.

    A bad dd just may not understand why they are doing badly.

    The definition of a fake tank (healer) includes the concept that they are playing the system to their advantage by doing a role they have no intention of doing correctly.

    Unless they immediately go afk, there is no such thing as a fake dd just one not playing to your standard.

    Every argument why someone is a fake Tank or Healer and not a bad one can be used on DDs as well. Every argument why a DD is bad and no fake can be used on Tanks and Healers as well. Its purely based on the individuals point of view.

    If you believe that every player is natively a DD, no matter how little they bring to the team then fake DDs dont exist for you, but fake Healers and fake Tanks do by the definition that they dont perform the role.
    If you believe that a fake player is a player that does not intend to fill his role propperly and simply dont cares then fake DDs exist in that context for players that simply dont care about their performance and expect others to compensate, be that actively or passively.

    If you are a DD you get impacted more by Tanks (primary) and Healers (secondary) but not so much by bad/fake DDs. If you are a real Tank its the other way around. You get heavily impacted by bad/fake DDs (primary, especially when they come in pairs) and only in some situations by Healers (secondary). Since DDs make up the wast majority and even many Tanks start being off tanks to compensate or use their DDs all together we always end up in these situations.
    Deter1UK wrote: »
    Nagastani wrote: »
    .. it should hopefully be obvious to everyone involved in especially that run, people are just there for the gear. Like 99.99% of players are just there to get their jewelry and staff. I did it. I ran with others who did it. Please understand that for players farming gear, it's one of the most boring and time consuming runs in the entire game.

    It takes NUMEROUS runs to get it all and the same holds true for other gear farming raids as well. No one on that run expects instant gratification... lol we expect quite the opposite actually.

    Well, with the forthcoming RNG changes - weighted to what you don't have - people will have do do far fewer gear runs. Once you take a high percentage of gear runs out of the mix what effect do you think will this have on the queueing population and their behaviour?

    On the behaviour nothing. It works for them and tehy will still need their daily dungeons. For the population it has to be seen, i think you will see a raise at first to fill collections and then maybe drop a bit over time.
  • Thannazzar
    Thannazzar
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    TBH, I got frustrated with this for months, having come through the other end of the rage I can recommend:

    1. Roll a tank
    2. Make sure they have 27k resists,45k+ Health, A taunt, a pull and an enemy armor debuff
    3. If you can make it a self healing tank so much the better

    Queue randoms and get:

    1. Sub 10 second queue times
    2. Gratitude from players who thank you for being a real tank
    3. Never having to cope with a fake tank in your group again
  • Xebov
    Xebov
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    Thannazzar wrote: »
    2. Gratitude from players who thank you for being a real tank

    Thats a good joke you where hiding there.

  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.

    Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.

    Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
    But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.

    Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
    Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
    Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank

    Do your job.
  • HalfDragoness
    HalfDragoness
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    One of the things I have wished for, and think it would be a good idea, would be a 'Story Mode' dungeon queue. There is no difference combat wise between a rnd and a story mode dungeon except that every time you do the dungeon the orginal quest story is available to play through (but you only get the initial skill point and quest reward the first time you complete the story).
    I'm in favour of this because it would be an excellent starting place for new players, and it is nice for veteran players if they want to re-experience the story of a particular dungeon.

    Story mode would allow players of all experiences to just come together, slow down, and appreciate the story and lore. I often want return to dungeons I've completed but just to focus on the story without creating a new character just to do so. And, sure I could queue with guildies to do a dungeon, but if I've already completed the dungeon quest there's no way to go back and do so again.

    The other problem with rnd queues is that you have 2 types of people:
    • The people who want a quick rnd, get ti done in 5 - 10 mins for daily rewards
    • The people who are just starting out, or who want to enjoy the story of a dungeon

    There is nothing wrong with either of these mentalities when entering a dungeon, but when you put them together that's when the problems arise. People from the first group are thinking: Why is that person taking so long? What are they doing? Are they AFK? they'll get bored waiting and will run off and just kill everything.
    Peopl from the second group are thinking: Why are they running off? I need them to wait. I need to wait for this quest NPC. I actually have no idea where I'm going/what I'm doing. They'll run to try and keep uo, but all the mobs are dead... etc... which makes their dungeon experience really unsatisfying and horrible.

    TL;DR: Bring in a Story Mode queue for dungeons so that people who want to have a slower playthrough can queue for that. People queueing for Story Mode should then not end up playing with fake tanks and healers
  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    akl77 wrote: »
    I’d hate it if there’s a real healer or real tank in a dungeon, I hope it’s 4 dps for fast run experience and get it done and over with. Your abilities already have self heal, and who needs heal in a dungeon. Taunt is easy by slot inner fire for boss. Put dark convergence on, all adds are grouped why need a tank? Letting 2 dps to do damages in a dungeon takes way longer, not even efficient. If you really wanna see tank and healer fulfill their job and shine, play vet trials.

    Incorrect.

    The buffs added by tanks and healers outweighs the DPS from 2 extra DD's, not to mention the organization and security that come from having tanks and healers that know what they are doing.

    I dread getting into dungeons that have fake roles. Never once has it ever made a run smoother in my experiences.
  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.

    Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.

    Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
    But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.

    Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
    Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
    Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank

    Do your job.

    It's a game, not work
  • Ishtarknows
    Ishtarknows
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    Or perhaps more likely, a bad one :smile:

    Still underperforming though, and since we're talking about people not performing the role they queued for **all** roles must be looked at and that includes dds.
  • Facefister
    Facefister
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.

    Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.

    Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
    But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.

    Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
    Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
    Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank

    Do your job.

    It's a game, not work

    But yet, you expect the tanks to do their job? :)
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Merforum wrote: »
    Merforum wrote: »
    I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.

    A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.

    WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.

    For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.

    This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.

    Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.

    As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.

    I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
    apply for Normal Random dungeons with
    groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
    cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
    question if the reward is for backfilling
    specific queue and helping players should
    premades even get the same reward.

    I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too

    If DPS is too low to complete the dungeon that is already the punishment, and you can kick them and get someone who can complete it. If 'good' DDs stop FAKING and did DD then maybe there would be better DPS all around.

    I never pug as anything but real tank or real healer so saying that bad DDs are ones complain about fakes is projection because it is elitist DDs that fake as tank/healer who are the ones that complain about the non existent low DPS problem. I have never pugged a normal random where the DPS was too low to clear it, this is projection.
    Has had a few failed normal's but most was because not getting the mechanic and do not respond to chat.
    One memorable one was normal Scalecaller Peak, i was farming it for Jorvuld's Guidance Set and did then on pledge.
    Now I got an very low cp group, one below 50, highest was just past cp 200.
    Real tank but he was the cp 100 something and squishy. I was on my magplar healer / dd.

    After half an hour and slow progress even if we chatted a lot I asked the logical question: you don't need this dungeon?
    I did but could only use gear from one, this was before cp 2.0, I did not need an random normal but they was very cool.
    So the did another random normal and got fungal 1.

    Now one of the guilds I'm in has has an group of friends who tend to focus on dlc dungeons, from vet HM and achievements to farming normal dlc for weapon drops.
    One fun was then we did random normal's and if we did not get an dlc we ported to one :)
    Yes this was an 4 man group set up for farming dlc dungeons.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Franchise408
    Franchise408
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    Lillutu wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »

    Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.

    No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.

    Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.

    A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.

    Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.

    Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
    But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.

    Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
    Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
    Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank

    Do your job.

    It's a game, not work

    But yet, you expect the tanks to do their job? :)

    I am a tank :)
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