Ishtarknows wrote: »WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.
For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.
This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.
Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.
I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
apply for Normal Random dungeons with
groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
question if the reward is for backfilling
specific queue and helping players should
premades even get the same reward.
I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too
Completing a tough veteran DLC hardmode pledge gives you 5 transmute crystals. A simple 5-10 minute base game Random normal dungeon gives 10 crystals. That's the same crystal reward as clearing a vet hm trial so well that you get on weekly leaderboard. See the issue here?WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.
Facefister wrote: »And what about fake DDs?
WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
Endgame players with multiple characters tend to need a lot of crystals and farming random normal dungeons has become the most efficient way of farming crystals, so they just hop on their DDs and fake queue. They should be able to get the crystals more efficiently from endgame group content, not from beginner group content.
Facefister wrote: »And what about fake DDs?
There's no such thing as a fake DD, there is no real tank or healer Qing as a DD in ESO. That is ridiculous. There is only DDs fake Qing as tank and healer, to jump the Q of other DDs then insult them by calling them fake. I you are a 'good' DD then Q as a DD and show everyone how good your DPS is.
Facefister wrote: »Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.
For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.
This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.
Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.
I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only apply for Normal Random dungeons with groups of less than 4 otherwise people will cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the question if the reward is for backfilling specific queue and helping players should premades even get the same reward.
Ishtarknows wrote: »WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.
For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.
This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.
Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.
I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
apply for Normal Random dungeons with
groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
question if the reward is for backfilling
specific queue and helping players should
premades even get the same reward.
I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too
If DPS is too low to complete the dungeon that is already the punishment, and you can kick them and get someone who can complete it. If 'good' DDs stop FAKING and did DD then maybe there would be better DPS all around.
I never pug as anything but real tank or real healer so saying that bad DDs are ones complain about fakes is projection because it is elitist DDs that fake as tank/healer who are the ones that complain about the non existent low DPS problem. I have never pugged a normal random where the DPS was too low to clear it, this is projection.
orgin_stadia wrote: »Facefister wrote: »Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
Or perhaps more likely, a bad one
Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one
So basically what we need is better loadout system, where each class and character can be any of the roles. Something like Dressing Room addon but with CP/Skill morphs/Gear/Skill bar/ switching. Respecing char for each content is a pain and having 2 many alts gathering same skill shards same public dungeons and same guild skills leveling is amazingly boring after first 3 times.
.. it should hopefully be obvious to everyone involved in especially that run, people are just there for the gear. Like 99.99% of players are just there to get their jewelry and staff. I did it. I ran with others who did it. Please understand that for players farming gear, it's one of the most boring and time consuming runs in the entire game.
It takes NUMEROUS runs to get it all and the same holds true for other gear farming raids as well. No one on that run expects instant gratification... lol we expect quite the opposite actually.
The definition of a fake tank (healer) includes the concept that they are playing the system to their advantage by doing a role they have no intention of doing correctly.
Bobby's_UserID wrote: »Or can I taunt the boss, heal myself and do 60% of the groups dps? (Magblade with Medusa, pFG, 2Crit) Sure, the group will be missing some buffs, but even with buffs, the groups dps will be lower, so why bother?
Do I play the role correctly, when I absorb all the dmg in the dungeon, taunt all bosses and not run away from my group?
Bobby's_UserID wrote: »
What do you think is the correct way to play a tank?
KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
than u also could say a tank without spot is not a fake tank its just a bad one
Stop derailing the thread.
A fake tank has malicious intent.
A bad dd just may not understand why they are doing badly.
The definition of a fake tank (healer) includes the concept that they are playing the system to their advantage by doing a role they have no intention of doing correctly.
Unless they immediately go afk, there is no such thing as a fake dd just one not playing to your standard.
.. it should hopefully be obvious to everyone involved in especially that run, people are just there for the gear. Like 99.99% of players are just there to get their jewelry and staff. I did it. I ran with others who did it. Please understand that for players farming gear, it's one of the most boring and time consuming runs in the entire game.
It takes NUMEROUS runs to get it all and the same holds true for other gear farming raids as well. No one on that run expects instant gratification... lol we expect quite the opposite actually.
Well, with the forthcoming RNG changes - weighted to what you don't have - people will have do do far fewer gear runs. Once you take a high percentage of gear runs out of the mix what effect do you think will this have on the queueing population and their behaviour?
Thannazzar wrote: »2. Gratitude from players who thank you for being a real tank
Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
I’d hate it if there’s a real healer or real tank in a dungeon, I hope it’s 4 dps for fast run experience and get it done and over with. Your abilities already have self heal, and who needs heal in a dungeon. Taunt is easy by slot inner fire for boss. Put dark convergence on, all adds are grouped why need a tank? Letting 2 dps to do damages in a dungeon takes way longer, not even efficient. If you really wanna see tank and healer fulfill their job and shine, play vet trials.
Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.
Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.
Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank
Do your job.
orgin_stadia wrote: »Facefister wrote: »Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
Or perhaps more likely, a bad one
Franchise408 wrote: »Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.
Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.
Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank
Do your job.
It's a game, not work
Has had a few failed normal's but most was because not getting the mechanic and do not respond to chat.Ishtarknows wrote: »WhyMustItBe wrote: »I get it, people are pressed for time and have instant gratification syndrome. But the dungeon runs I have done lately have been totally terrible and if I was a new player it would put me off wanting to be a part of this community or possibly the game. People just rushing ahead, queued as tank, no taunt slotted, not even waiting for group members to reach bosses, not talking at all when people ask to wait for them to grab the quest, just ME ME ME all the way through. It is a truly toxic experience.
A solution I propose is simple: Give extra rewards to REAL tanks/healers.
WoW did something like this years ago to incentivize people playing the tank role, but ESO could do it better. What I suggest is, have a simple code that counts how much healing you do as a healer, how much you taunt and absorb damage as a tank, and if you meet certain metrics for a REAL fulfillment of that role, then at the end of the dungeon you get the option to choose a loot box containing a random piece of one of the non-monster sets dropped in that dungeon.
For example for people farming Medusa gear, you would have an extra RNG roll for the piece you wanted at the end, but only if you actually filled the role you queued for.
This is a better solution than trying to just punish selfish people who queue as the wrong role to save time. Creating real incentives is always more effective than punishment.
Yeah this is a good suggestion. One quick and easy thing ZOS can try is instead of Normal Random having same reward as Vet, to have normal receive the 4-10 transmute you get in BGs rather than the guaranteed 10 transmute one. But Vet always gets the 10. And if that still doesn't work, I have proposed almost the same thing as you many times except I think if someone is considered a Fake tank/healer they should just NOT RECEIVE ANY REWARD at the end, no 100K XP or 10 transmutes.
As you point out the system can super easily test whether the healer is actually even healing anyone (fakes don't even slot a group heal), also you can easily spot a fake tank because they don't taunt and are not blocking any damage (as real healer with fake tank my 'Damage Received' is almost always the highest because with fake tank I always get aggro). I would add one more test that should apply to all roles, that is speedrunning, if someone gets way ahead of the group and/or initiates a fight with any boss while other players are not in the room (like 2-3 times to make sure it is intentional) at the end they should just not receive any rewards.
I think the NOT receiving rewards for toxic players is a better incentive than an extra set piece for doing it correctly. One more thing, not only should they not get the reward but it should act as if they did and if they use same toon again withing 20 hours it will be the lesser reward. And as always you have to make the disclaimer this should only
apply for Normal Random dungeons with
groups of less than 4 otherwise people will
cry about it, even though why would a premade treat each other like the toxic players do anyway. Also you have the
question if the reward is for backfilling
specific queue and helping players should
premades even get the same reward.
I hope that there's space in your no rewards punishment system for dds who don't perform too. If they don't do at least 30% of the damage they should get nada too
If DPS is too low to complete the dungeon that is already the punishment, and you can kick them and get someone who can complete it. If 'good' DDs stop FAKING and did DD then maybe there would be better DPS all around.
I never pug as anything but real tank or real healer so saying that bad DDs are ones complain about fakes is projection because it is elitist DDs that fake as tank/healer who are the ones that complain about the non existent low DPS problem. I have never pugged a normal random where the DPS was too low to clear it, this is projection.
Facefister wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »Facefister wrote: »Facefister wrote: »
Yes there is, if a "DD" does less damage than a tank/healer or even barely more than a tank/healer then that's a fake one.
No, this simply means they aren't very good at their role. They might not even realise it.
Definition of "fake" = not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
A "fake" uses deception to get what they want at the expense of others.
Yes, there are indeed fake-DDs. When "adventurers" with their unique single-bar magicka bow builds queue as DDs. No player inherently takes a role, they actively decide to fulfill such role. And when said "adventurers" with said builds select the "DD" role, then they're faking it. You assume that everyone is a DD from the very beginning, you're wrong.
Healing and tanking roles are somewhat clear.
But here is so much mental gymnastics when it comes to damage dealing.
Low damage causes more risky and lethal situations
Low damage causes that risky and lethal situations prolong for longer
Low damage increases the stress put on the healer and the tank
Do your job.
It's a game, not work
But yet, you expect the tanks to do their job?