Make more overland content like Shada's Tear (in other zone than Craglorn) !

Integral1900

Not interested, but I'm not against it.

It would be good to have more content of that kind of difficulty for solo players, but it is never going to happen. The current Craglorn zone was an utter failure in terms of use and retention, shada’s tear is one of those locations where, outside of an event like this, the studio could remove it from the game entirely and nobody would notice. I’d love to say that’s hyperbole but it isn’t, I tried for years to get players together to run Craglorn content, I might as well have tried to split the atom with a baseball bat.

ZigoSid

Yes, I would love to have this !

Yes as long as it's only ONE or TWO quests in the zone, still soloable (and only needing 2 for those that can't solo it) and repeatable to have one more box per day. Then why not.

But a full Craglorn zone, no, never again.

mocap

Shada's Tear is basicaly full-stuffed dungeon not listed in dungen finder tool and it's waaay better than most of vanila dungeons, especially 1-2 types like Fungal 1-2, Banished 1-2 etc. There are several cool bosses with helluva unique mechanics which you wont see anywhere else. One or two puzzles that needs to be solved.

Such content is very cool and else, problem is - ZOS will not do such content cuz of too much cost. Better to do another pack of $ dungeons.

Oznog666

Yes, I would love to have this !

As I wrote some weeks ago in another thread I loved all of Craglorn. When I was "young" I came first to this zone and was pretty fast finished by some of the overland monsters. So I promised them that I will come back as soon as I'm grown up :-) which I did later on. For many many hours I had a lot of fun with the overland content and the delves, after doing skyreach and the Trials of RahniZa solo the first time I was really happy.

Craglorn itself as region is also nice, I like it more than i.e Elsweyr.

Thoragaal

Yes, I would love to have this !

A lot of people seem to think (maybe I'm wrong) that Craglorn, right now, is just like it was on release. The difficulty of Craglorn on release is probably the biggest reason it was "a fail", but has since then been nerfed, a lot.
IIRC, current Craglorn difficulty is slightly above normal overland, which seems to be the difficulty level OP is talking about.

Being against it, because "on release it was a fail" is a false equivalence, since the difficulty has changed dramatically since then.

WaywardArgonian

Yes, I would love to have this !

I've always thought that Craglorn 'dungeons' such as Shada's Tear are the perfect representation of what this theorized 'vet overland' could look like. Reasonably challenging but not impossible solo content that at the very least requires you to stay on your toes. I would love to see more of it.

Aardappelboom

Yes, I would love to have this !

Like OP, this was one of the best experiences in ESO for me.

Honestly, this game reminds me so much of the good old days of Baldur's gate and Icewind Dale where dungeon crawling and awesome self-contained "dungeon stories" were a big part of the game.

I feel that craglorn did a lot of stuff right, maybe not at launch but ESO could benefit from likewise, dungeon crawling experiences with tons of lore and stories right there in the dungeon.

It's already very clear that ESO wants to cater to TES gamers, tears of Shada, for me, had a good story, good difficulty, fun bosses and an awesome, lore-filled environment that enticed me the entire playthrough and fits into the direction they want to take it.

corrosivechains

Yes, I would love to have this !

Red_Feather wrote: »

Having a group area in each zone isn't the end of the world. Why are people overreacting to the suggestion. It's one group area in a zone. I don't get the big deal. Each zone has it's own theme and it would be nice if a group of players or someone really good at duoing or soloing get to experience a challenge in that themed environment instead of having to go off into a trial instance somewhere over and over again.

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom". Aetherius forbid multiplayer games were actually multiplayer.

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

Darkstorne

Yes, I would love to have this !

Specifically designed vet delves in existing zones would be my dream announcement.

As much as I adore healing in vet dungeons, and really look forward to every single Q1 and Q3 DLC, I'd be really happy if they said "from now on each Q1 and Q3 DLC will add one group dungeon, and one vet delve to the game." I think we have a lot of dungeons already, and I'd rather see the team focus on one dungeon per DLC for extra polish, and flex their creative wings with some solo vet delves alongside them.

But I completely get that this is just me and my weird desires for this game to lean even harder towards solo content, despite being a big fan of group dungeons

Sylvermynx

Not interested, but I'm not against it.

Only issue I'd have with it is the time/dev resources and money going to something perhaps not many would use.

Artim_X

Yes, I would love to have this !

Would be nice if every other year we got an adventure zone like current Craglorn with group instances that technically can be done solo, regular overland questline, multiple trials, and a arena. *crosses fingers for argonia adventure zone*

zelaminator

No, ..(+reasons)

Darkstorne wrote: »

Specifically designed vet delves in existing zones would be my dream announcement.

As much as I adore healing in vet dungeons, and really look forward to every single Q1 and Q3 DLC, I'd be really happy if they said "from now on each Q1 and Q3 DLC will add one group dungeon, and one vet delve to the game." I think we have a lot of dungeons already, and I'd rather see the team focus on one dungeon per DLC for extra polish, and flex their creative wings with some solo vet delves alongside them.

But I completely get that this is just me and my weird desires for this game to lean even harder towards solo content, despite being a big fan of group dungeons

Vet delve, go nuts.. just let it stand alone, story wise.. I am 100% of the mindset that everyone should be able to finish the story/zone quests solo, if they so choose

Amottica

Vhozek wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

There is a REASON why ZOS has said they will not make any more 'group zone' content outside of dungeons... because Craglorn was an utter failure for the majority of players. Sure 'a lot' of players want more difficulty at least according to the vocal minority on the forums, but the majority apparently do not. Craglorn was a DEAD zone before they completely revamped it to make it solo friendly... and I believe they also tamped down the difficulty of "+delves" as well to make it more solo-friendly.

It costs $$ and resources to make zones and content, content that only a minority of players will play ONCE and then probably never again. That's how Craglorn became a ghost zone, and it wasn't until the revamp that players started going there again with all their alts... [snip]

Difficult overworld was never given a fair chance. The game had a couple thousand players at launch and they based their decisions for One Tamriel around those few people. The game then gained a ton more players after relaunching. I had completely forgotten about ESO up until they announced One Tamriel. We can only attribute the increase in players at that point to the relaunch, not the decrease in difficulty. [snip]
Craglorn did bad because anyone looking for an interesting overworld didn't make it past their starting zone and never made it to Craglorn. The people who did, made it to Craglorn because the game allows you to make it literally anywhere unscathed and Craglorn was the only test they faced.

[snip]

Complaints about Craglorn came in as soon as it was dropped. This was well before One Tamriel as it was the most fervent ESO player base that started supporting this game from the start.

[edited to remove quote]

luen79rwb17_ESO

My proposal for this hot topic would be adding more solo arenas like VH or a new mode called: solo dungeons! Instances made for solo players and their companions!

SilverBride

No, ..(+reasons)

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

I've always thought that Craglorn 'dungeons' such as Shada's Tear are the perfect representation of what this theorized 'vet overland' could look like. Reasonably challenging but not impossible solo content that at the very least requires you to stay on your toes. I would love to see more of it.

It is not soloable for many players, and even paired up it can take a couple of hours. Spending that much continuous time on one activity is something I find tortuous, not fun. This is why I don't do arenas.

corrosivechains wrote: »

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom".

I find it equally as bizarre that some gamers think MMO means forced grouping.

corrosivechains wrote: »

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

Forced grouping in Craglorn is why I quit for a few years. I trudged through the vet overland zones for Cadwell's Silver and Gold and Craglorn was all that was left. There was not a single thing you could do solo so you grouped and played how the group wanted, not how you preferred.

It was a nightmare and I get defensive when others suggest turning the game I now love back into that mess again.

Arunei

corrosivechains wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Having a group area in each zone isn't the end of the world. Why are people overreacting to the suggestion. It's one group area in a zone. I don't get the big deal. Each zone has it's own theme and it would be nice if a group of players or someone really good at duoing or soloing get to experience a challenge in that themed environment instead of having to go off into a trial instance somewhere over and over again.

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom". Aetherius forbid multiplayer games were actually multiplayer.

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

I think what you, and a lot of people who claim they want harder overworld, aren't considering is the fact that a majority of people playing ESO aren't playing it for the MMO aspect. They're playing it because it's a game in the TES universe that happens to be an MMO. That means a majority of people playing are coming from the single-player TES games. The devs themselves apparently are even steering from calling ESO an MMO, though I've only seen other people claim this and can't remember having ever read it myself (but then again my memory is horrible so that's not saying much). Why do you think so many people play solo? It's because they're here for the TES aspect, not the multiplayer aspect.

Parasaurolophus

Yes, I would love to have this !

Arunei wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Having a group area in each zone isn't the end of the world. Why are people overreacting to the suggestion. It's one group area in a zone. I don't get the big deal. Each zone has it's own theme and it would be nice if a group of players or someone really good at duoing or soloing get to experience a challenge in that themed environment instead of having to go off into a trial instance somewhere over and over again.

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom". Aetherius forbid multiplayer games were actually multiplayer.

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

I think what you, and a lot of people who claim they want harder overworld, aren't considering is the fact that a majority of people playing ESO aren't playing it for the MMO aspect. They're playing it because it's a game in the TES universe that happens to be an MMO. That means a majority of people playing are coming from the single-player TES games. The devs themselves apparently are even steering from calling ESO an MMO, though I've only seen other people claim this and can't remember having ever read it myself (but then again my memory is horrible so that's not saying much). Why do you think so many people play solo? It's because they're here for the TES aspect, not the multiplayer aspect.

In fact, claims that most teso players are fans of the Scrolls universe is completely false. No one has any statistics. I personally know a lot of teso players who haven't even played Skyrim. And I know for sure that for many players teso is simply the best MMO on the market. However, many are already preparing to leave for the NW. Many have returned back to WoW. Not even all of those tens of millions of players. that played in Skyrim - are not necessarily fans of tes.
Well, let's say, even I'm a fan of the universe and lore of the Elder Scrolls, then I can't play other MMOs and be a high end player? Nonsense ...
I don't understand why the prevailing opinion on the forum is that eso is a purely niche game for casual tes fans. Games like MMOs are always big projects that aim to take over as many players as possible.

corrosivechains

Yes, I would love to have this !

Arunei wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Having a group area in each zone isn't the end of the world. Why are people overreacting to the suggestion. It's one group area in a zone. I don't get the big deal. Each zone has it's own theme and it would be nice if a group of players or someone really good at duoing or soloing get to experience a challenge in that themed environment instead of having to go off into a trial instance somewhere over and over again.

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom". Aetherius forbid multiplayer games were actually multiplayer.

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

I think what you, and a lot of people who claim they want harder overworld, aren't considering is the fact that a majority of people playing ESO aren't playing it for the MMO aspect. They're playing it because it's a game in the TES universe that happens to be an MMO. That means a majority of people playing are coming from the single-player TES games. The devs themselves apparently are even steering from calling ESO an MMO, though I've only seen other people claim this and can't remember having ever read it myself (but then again my memory is horrible so that's not saying much). Why do you think so many people play solo? It's because they're here for the TES aspect, not the multiplayer aspect.

That's fine if they do so with the understanding that it's still an MMORPG and they wont be able to solo every single thing in the game. The trend of people buying games that were 100% advertised as something then constantly demanding that it's changed to cater to them and chasing away the parts of the player base that bought the game understanding and wanting the game to be what it was advertised as really needs to be bucked. Especially when they are extremely toxic in their demands, purposefully turn people off to the game in whatever venue they can, then point to their own actions as proof that people didn't like the things they themselves didn't like.

As I stated in the comment you posted, the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused. Most of those who quit ESO before One Tamriel did so LONG before they even got to that point. Starting crusades against an aspect of a game and chasing away the people who enjoy those aspects of the game isn't proof that no one wanted those aspects of the game, and too often you see this false equivalency used by toxic fans.

Sindrik8x

Yes, I would love to have this !

Shada's Tear is and always will be one of my favorite, "dungeons". My guild and I (third iteration thereof) ran that years and years ago for the first time. Probably 4 years back. When we noticed the difficulty for low CP players was pretty tough if you did not get mechanics, we were encouraged to learn it and beat it. The poison nereid boss, the poison cloud rooms, the final boss (omg first go at her...), all were challenging. When we beat it, we made it a monthly ritual to get back in there and play it because it was so fun. Rock the daily, improve our time, do better with mechanics, take other guildies through, etc.

It will always hold a place in my heart for sure. But, Craglorn is actually my favorite zone revamp or not. I just really enjoy it.

SilverBride

No, ..(+reasons)

corrosivechains wrote: »

That's fine if they do so with the understanding that it's still an MMORPG and they wont be able to solo every single thing in the game.

We already have plenty of group content with dungeons, trials and arenas, and also World Bosses and Harrowstorms.

"corrosivechains wrote: »

the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused.

This thread I started back in September 2014 shows otherwise. And you have to consider that back then you went through zones in a linear manner. By the time you reached Craglorn it was the ONLY option to continue leveling.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/132207/please-give-us-a-solo-questing-for-vet-levels-11-14

Red_Feather

Yes, I would love to have this !

One thing Bless Unleashed does that is cool is that there are corrupted versions of every world boss in the game that can appear randomly.

They don't last forever. There is a window in which they appear corrupted and then eventually return to normal. You start a fight with a corrupted boss and hold on to your lunch cause the ride is wild.

For example a 'twisted void' version of the Cyclops is a super powered version of that world boss and it is bonkers absurd strong. It's attacks are modified to be nuts and the telegraphed attacks are usually all one hit kills. It is like the developers just said 'let's go nuts with this thing and see if anyone can beat it'.

It is hilarious watching 30+ players trying to fight that thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtM-Ik__mZQ

[Deleted User]

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Thoragaal

Yes, I would love to have this !

SilverBride wrote: »

"corrosivechains wrote: »

the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused.

This thread I started back in September 2014 shows otherwise. And you have to consider that back then you went through zones in a linear manner. By the time you reached Craglorn it was the ONLY option to continue leveling.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/132207/please-give-us-a-solo-questing-for-vet-levels-11-14

I'm not following your reasoning.
Are you saying that those 18 agrees and 1 awesome was the majority of the playerbase and that those players quit due to Craglorn?
What your thread is showing is a group of people that didn't like how Craglorn was designed in 2014. I didn't like it either btw (even if it had its "charm"). But it doesn't show 1) The majority of the playerbase, and 2) The majority quitting.
By that standard, the "76 yes / 21 no" (shown in this thread, as of right now) is telling that a majority of players in ESO wants current Craglorn difficulty to spread to more areas.
And who knows how many people have already quit because they find the overland areas too easy. The sample data used, in both examples, is biased.

A lot of people didn't like how Craglorn was designed in 2014, and I'm one of them. But most of the players back then probably didn't quit because of Craglorn exclusively. The game was a buggy mess back then. Nobody today is being "forced to level up" in Craglorn (like back then). The difficulty of Craglorn then isn't the same as of today.

katanagirl1

Yes, I would love to have this !

I guess I don’t understand why Shada’s Tear wasn’t added to the group finder, since it’s a 4 man group dungeon.

I wonder if another zone like Craglorn, with both overland and group activities would be more successful now. There are plenty of calls for more difficult overland, but I don’t think raising the difficulty of existing zones is a good idea.

I don’t generally feel like the Craglorn overland enemies are more difficult than other zones now (wasn’t around when they were), maybe it is because I’ve spent so much time there that I’m used to it. Of course the group delves are more difficult than regular delves and the Rahni’Za group area is more challenging.

I find it hard to find a group for activities, asked around in guild for anyone doing DSA today and didn’t get a response and hung out in zone for a while but got bored waiting for anyone running it. So if new group content was made I would hope I could enjoy it. I still like farming Craglorn and enjoying the view and just relaxing, though.

It’s just a beautiful zone, and the storyline made it feel mysterious and unique.

Arunei

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

In fact, claims that most teso players are fans of the Scrolls universe is completely false. No one has any statistics. I personally know a lot of teso players who haven't even played Skyrim. And I know for sure that for many players teso is simply the best MMO on the market. However, many are already preparing to leave for the NW. Many have returned back to WoW. Not even all of those tens of millions of players. that played in Skyrim - are not necessarily fans of tes.
Well, let's say, even I'm a fan of the universe and lore of the Elder Scrolls, then I can't play other MMOs and be a high end player? Nonsense ...
I don't understand why the prevailing opinion on the forum is that eso is a purely niche game for casual tes fans. Games like MMOs are always big projects that aim to take over as many players as possible.

If you're going to say that claims of most ESO players coming from the single-player games is "completely false", you can't contradict yourself by saying no one has statistics. By the very definition of no one having statistics, you can't say the claim is false OR true. You also claim many are preparing to leave for NW; do you have accurate statistics for that, or just hearsay from a small portion of players? Let's keep in mind that even if you talk to a few hundred players, that's comparable to a drop of water in the ocean to the number of players in the game. I've also seen and heard people say NW is awful, in fact there was a thread here on the forums not all that long ago and most people who posted in it seemed to think it wasn't all that great.

ESO might be the most successful MMO, but that doesn't mean anything. Without those statistics you mentioned us not having, there's no way for us to know if a majority of those people are coming from the single-player titles or not. You said you "know tons" of people who never played Skyrim that play ESO, but...well, I already mentioned the number of players any of us talk to is neglible compared to the overall playerbase. Beyond that, Skyrim isn't the only TES game out there, so even if a lot of them hadn't played Skyrim, that doesn't mean much of anything.

I also never said that people aren't capable of playing other MMOs. I said most people who came to this game don't play it for the MMO aspect, but rather came to it for the TES aspect. Nothing in that statement says people can't be a high-end player or enjoy other MMOs, and I'm honestly not sure how you came to that conclusion. I also never said ESO is a "casual-only niche game". Nothing in what I said implies that, either, it only states most people have come for the TES aspect. Sure, I'll admit that maybe that common belief is wrong, but then again if that's the case, why would the game director claim they don't consider ESO an MMO? I decided to look into it and yep, apparently Matt did indeed say himself and the studio don't seem ZOS as an MMO as traditionally defined. Here are a few articles in case anyone is interested:

Source 1
Source 2

corrosivechains wrote: »

That's fine if they do so with the understanding that it's still an MMORPG and they wont be able to solo every single thing in the game. The trend of people buying games that were 100% advertised as something then constantly demanding that it's changed to cater to them and chasing away the parts of the player base that bought the game understanding and wanting the game to be what it was advertised as really needs to be bucked. Especially when they are extremely toxic in their demands, purposefully turn people off to the game in whatever venue they can, then point to their own actions as proof that people didn't like the things they themselves didn't like.

As I stated in the comment you posted, the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused. Most of those who quit ESO before One Tamriel did so LONG before they even got to that point. Starting crusades against an aspect of a game and chasing away the people who enjoy those aspects of the game isn't proof that no one wanted those aspects of the game, and too often you see this false equivalency used by toxic fans.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm certain most people are aware they can't solo all content, and I wasn't trying to imply people are demanding that. I was simply saying a lot of people prefer to play solo, since a lot of them come from the single-player games. I...haven't really seen anyone demanding ESO be changed so that everything can be made solo, but I would like to point out that plenty of people have demanded content that's supposed to be accessible to everyone be made harder. Yes, a lot of people have suggested things like optional sliders and toggles so you would only get the harder content if you opted in, or make vet versions of overland, but I mean...think about how much money and how many more resources it would cost for ZOS to make more difficult overland versions. Plus, how do they handle optional sliders for making content harder? What if a person who has their game set to Easy and a person who has their game set to Hard try to fight the same boss? Which players gamemode is picked? Are both applied? How would the coding for that work? We don't have that problem with things now because sub-50 players are scaled to CP160.

Also, I could have overlooked posts about it, but I don't recall reading anything about people leaving ESO simply because of Craglorn. There were a BUNCH of problems back before 1T that caused people to leave; if anyone left because of Craglorn, it would have been a minority of players. Could you explain where you're getting this idea from? Honesty question I swear, not trying to be sassy or anything. Is it because a lot of people point at how Craglorn originally was and state how the zone failed because of being too hard? It was ridiculously difficult, I remember a single wasp being able to wipe you if you weren't prepared for the zone's difficulty. It also wasn't a beginner zone, though, but was meant to be end-game group content, iirc. I don't think too many people would be opposed to one or two zones being harder, what many people are opposed to is all of overland being made harder.

There's another point I'd like to bring up, too, but this post is already long enough, so I'll save said point for another time.

SilverBride

No, ..(+reasons)

Arunei wrote: »

I...haven't really seen anyone demanding ESO be changed so that everything can be made solo, but I would like to point out that plenty of people have demanded content that's supposed to be accessible to everyone be made harder.

👍

Amottica

corrosivechains wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Having a group area in each zone isn't the end of the world. Why are people overreacting to the suggestion. It's one group area in a zone. I don't get the big deal. Each zone has it's own theme and it would be nice if a group of players or someone really good at duoing or soloing get to experience a challenge in that themed environment instead of having to go off into a trial instance somewhere over and over again.

For some bizarre reason the modern gamer thinks "MMO" means "Single-player with chatroom". Aetherius forbid multiplayer games were actually multiplayer.

Also a LOT of false equivalencies. The game wasn't a failure before One Tamriel because one zone in the game most of those who quit playing never even saw was geared toward grouping.

I think what you, and a lot of people who claim they want harder overworld, aren't considering is the fact that a majority of people playing ESO aren't playing it for the MMO aspect. They're playing it because it's a game in the TES universe that happens to be an MMO. That means a majority of people playing are coming from the single-player TES games. The devs themselves apparently are even steering from calling ESO an MMO, though I've only seen other people claim this and can't remember having ever read it myself (but then again my memory is horrible so that's not saying much). Why do you think so many people play solo? It's because they're here for the TES aspect, not the multiplayer aspect.

That's fine if they do so with the understanding that it's still an MMORPG and they wont be able to solo every single thing in the game. The trend of people buying games that were 100% advertised as something then constantly demanding that it's changed to cater to them and chasing away the parts of the player base that bought the game understanding and wanting the game to be what it was advertised as really needs to be bucked. Especially when they are extremely toxic in their demands, purposefully turn people off to the game in whatever venue they can, then point to their own actions as proof that people didn't like the things they themselves didn't like.

As I stated in the comment you posted, the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused. Most of those who quit ESO before One Tamriel did so LONG before they even got to that point. Starting crusades against an aspect of a game and chasing away the people who enjoy those aspects of the game isn't proof that no one wanted those aspects of the game, and too often you see this false equivalency used by toxic fans.

The reality is that Craglorn was designed for grouping, not solo. Zenimax changed that because the player base balked at the forced grouping (and it most certainly had quests that could not be completed by anyone solo). This is also why Zenimax has not repeated such a design since. Zenimax does a good job catering to group and solo play and overland questing has pretty much leaned toward solo play with some open content for small groups of players to enjoy.

I think the person you quoted is mistaken about the player base as we likely have a mix of TES fans and those that were not heavy into TES. At the end of the day, most players are probably here to play an MMORPG that is set in TES lore which is specifically what the developers intended this game to be. None of us know where the dividing line is and it is probably not important.

Arunei

Amottica wrote: »

I think the person you quoted is mistaken about the player base as we likely have a mix of TES fans and those that were not heavy into TES. At the end of the day, most players are probably here to play an MMORPG that is set in TES lore which is specifically what the developers intended this game to be. None of us know where the dividing line is and it is probably not important.

You're basically saying the same thing I am; a lot of players are drawn more by the TES aspect than the MMO aspect. That's not to say there aren't a lot of people who like it because it's TES lore in an MMO format. My point was the main factor and draw IS the TES aspect of the game and less so the fact that it's an MMO set in the TES universe. I'm sure plenty of people who've only played maybe one or two previous TES titles play because they wanted an MMO they could enjoy regardless of the franchise. Like is stated in those articles I linked, even the game director and devs and all don't consider ESO an MMO in the traditional sense, and more emphasis is placed on the RPG aspect. I also decided to do a search about whether people play ESO for the lore/franchise or for the MMO aspect, and even though it's a small sample size, numerous posts in various threads here on the forum and on Reddit seems to point towards more people playing ESO for the lore/franchise aspect than the MMO one. It's late though and I meant to go to bed like 3 hours ago, so I'll have to look through more threads later once I'm not braindead from tiredness.

I will, however, take this time to make the point I mentioned before. Let's say ZOS does decide to go ahead and make overland harder. Let's say by like...10%? Not too much, right? But here's where the problems start. I see so many people claim you can't die even if your character is naked and you don't do anything, but this is 1000% false. My main is an Argo templar who I've got like 3.2k hours on. My CP is approaching 1.3k (my sig is wrong, I thought I was 1.3k already but I'm actually like 1,270-some, I'm just too lazy to edit it when I'll be there soon anyway haha), I have passives for increasing my Health and stuff, after a Sugar Skulls and all the CP and stuff my health is a little over 25k. I can easily wind up dead if I have to afk where enemies spawn in aggro range of me, and have come back to being dead multiple times. So here's where the first problem comes in: Mobs hit harder than most experienced players remember.

This ties in directly with the second problem; there are already numerous instances where people have come here and mentioned they do have a hard time with overland and delves and stuff. Let's remember overland includes WBs, too. I've seen people say they've gotten people into the game who have found it too easy, and this may be true, but that doesn't invalidate the people who are on the opposite spectrum and struggle with the content. If we make the game just 10% harder, that leads to the second problem: The people already having a hard time will be locked out of the main portion of the game.

Next is that whole experience thing, and it's probably the second biggest problem. Things in life get easier with practice, and as you become more experienced, you'll never be challenged by things that you once found hard when you weren't as good, only by things that push what you beyond what you know and are comfortable with. The same holds true for ESO; the more you play, the more you learn, the better you get at the content you prefer. A person who's gone through the process of leveling just one character already knows a lot more than someone just starting out, and a person who's leveled ten characters will know even more. The more you play, the more gear you get, the more gold you get, the more resources you have. And what happens after you reach a certain point? The main content of the game doesn't hold a challenge for you. It can't, once you reach that level. Many games are like that, once you reach a certain threshold, the game stops being a challenge unless you make your own challenge. Which is the third problem: Experience leads to having more knowledge and resources, something many beginning players don't have, especially if they don't have people they know who already play the game that can help.

And so that brings us to "well hey wouldn't it be better to make things harder so experienced people keep getting challenged?", and unfortunately, the answer is no. The reason is what, in my opinion, is the biggest problem, which is when is it enough? As I already mentioned, people tend to get better at things the more they do them, it's just part of learning and gaining experience. So let's say ZOS did that 10% increase, and let's also assume that it's still just easy enough for the people who already struggle to still progress. Well...what happens when people grow accustomed to that little difficulty increase and claim the game is too easy again? Does ZOS increase the difficulty again? And what about when people claim overland is too easy again after that? How much do they keep making the game harder? The people who claim things are too easy now will only keep finding the game too easy as they continue to learn and improve, while the people who have a hard time will fall behind. And then it gets to a point where overland is too difficult for new people period. This is the biggest problem: No matter how much overland difficulty gets increased, it will never be enough to make everyone happy, because experienced and dedicated players will simply keep getting better until overland is as hard as end-game trials, while everyone else gets left behind and can no longer play the majority of the game.

These reasons are often why the common response to "we want harder overland" threads is "go do vet dungeons and trials if you want a challenge". Veteran content is meant to be that challenge people are looking for, whether you prefer to play solo or with others. Overland is meant to be accessible to everyone, from the clueless newb just starting out to the pro who's been playing since beta and has all the achievements in the game.

There was something else I wanted to add here but my brain is mush and I can't rememeber it now, I'll post it later if I do haha.

Parasaurolophus

Yes, I would love to have this !

@Arunei Players cannot progress endlessly as there is a powercreep. So no one asks for differential overland as in trials, no one ... Most people simply point out the problem that overland is some kind of joke, visual novel, children's content, walking and reading simulator. Call it whatever you want.

corrosivechains

Yes, I would love to have this !

Thoragaal wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

"corrosivechains wrote: »

the majority of people who quit ESO before One Tamriel didn't do so because one zone in the entire game was group focused.

This thread I started back in September 2014 shows otherwise. And you have to consider that back then you went through zones in a linear manner. By the time you reached Craglorn it was the ONLY option to continue leveling.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/132207/please-give-us-a-solo-questing-for-vet-levels-11-14

I'm not following your reasoning.
Are you saying that those 18 agrees and 1 awesome was the majority of the playerbase and that those players quit due to Craglorn?
What your thread is showing is a group of people that didn't like how Craglorn was designed in 2014. I didn't like it either btw (even if it had its "charm"). But it doesn't show 1) The majority of the playerbase, and 2) The majority quitting.
By that standard, the "76 yes / 21 no" (shown in this thread, as of right now) is telling that a majority of players in ESO wants current Craglorn difficulty to spread to more areas.
And who knows how many people have already quit because they find the overland areas too easy. The sample data used, in both examples, is biased.

A lot of people didn't like how Craglorn was designed in 2014, and I'm one of them. But most of the players back then probably didn't quit because of Craglorn exclusively. The game was a buggy mess back then. Nobody today is being "forced to level up" in Craglorn (like back then). The difficulty of Craglorn then is the same as of today.

exactly this, which I seem to remember posting but memory is a spotty thing.

But for some information on this particular subject since apparently the burden of proof is no longer on those who actually make claims, here is an article about box sales of ESO on it's release and the speculation on the number of digital sales it more than likely had, as that information wasn't given:

https://elderscrollsonline.info/news/number-of-subscribers-and-success-rate-of-elder-scrolls-online

So, a conservative estimate, we'll say 1.5 million people on it's initial release.

Now, here is a link with a graph showing the number of active players over the past 5 years. Keep in mind One Tamriel dropped in October 2016:

https://mmo-population.com/r/elderscrollsonline/stats

That's less than 150,000 active players at the time of OT's release. So it's pretty safe to assume 1,350,000 players, or even a majority of those 1,350,000 players didn't quit because of one single group oriented zone. Now if you base your assumptions on the copious amounts of information available at the time, such as reviews, video reviews, let's plays, and the like...we can safely say most quit before even getting to that point, and those who had not quit for many other reasons.

Now, if we look at that graph with a bit more scrutiny, it is also safe to assume that as more new content released with a higher difficulty, as many who are against adding more difficult areas to existing overland content are VERY quick to point out no less, that the demand for more group oriented content and social activities have been a big contributor in drawing players back into the game and is the fiscally advisable route for ZOS and M$ to take in their online gaming sphere. That's definitely where the money seems to be.