Why PvErs don't like IC

Franchise408

Togal wrote: »

You need to prepare for pve right? you need the right gear and setups right? Thats the same in pvp, the difference is you came in unprepared for it. Just run with 50k health and max resistances if you wanna get your dailies done, heck It takes less than 5 minutes to get a daily done for your event ticket in IC and I got it done without any interruption.

No, you do not need to prepare for PVE

At least the PVE that is required for events.

You don't have to prepare for normal trials (Undaunted), you don't have to prepare for world bosses or delves (any anniversary or zone event). There is no PVE that is used for event tickets that you have to "prepare" for

You do need to prepare if you want to do vet content. But vet content has never been required for event tickets.

So it is a false equivalent

Franchise408

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whoops, draft quote.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Oh, you think event ticket requirements need to be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable? Okay...

So we'll remove the Dark Brotherhood Heists and Sacraments from their event, because I strongly dislike them. It's not fun, engaging, or enjoyable as I look up a guide to figure out that the route I need to get to my Sacrament target requires doing a bit of parkour or won't show up on the map until I'm practically right on top of it.

Actually, we need to cancel the DB/TG events entirely, because goody-two-shoes roleplayers can't be required to do evil things in order to get their event tickets - and yes, these are genuine complaints I've heard on the forums.

We also have to nix the Undaunted Event, because of genuine complaints on the forums for players who hate grouping with others and can't solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1 object to being forced into group dungeons. Then add in the complaints from players who have bad experiences with fake roles or people rushing through the dungeons. Neither fun, nor enjoyable, nor engaging, and after the PVP events, Undaunted probably has the highest level of salt spilled over it.

So sorry, but I repeat that I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. If the playerbase did get to exclude content from every event based on likes/dislikes, it wouldn't be just the PVP events up on the chopping block.

Ultimately, ZOS decides what content makes the cut for events, not your personal likes and dislikes. Events do not cater to you. Or me, for that matter, or I'd never be "forced" to run another Sacrament or Heist ever again for event tickets.

Not a single one of those things I'd required THREE TIMES over the course of a year for tickets.

Hell, not a single one of those things is required even twice.

That is absolutely besides the point of someone saying that content should be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable to be required for an event. If that is the standard that FlopsyPrince wants to hold, then I repeat that a lot more events have to go.

Also, we definitely had a year with double TG/DB events. There were plenty of complaints. [snip] Not to mention that there's functionally zero difference between "do a delve or world boss daily" in various PVE zones. There's functionally no difference between the Jesters and New Life festivals- it's all "get a short quest, do ridiculous holiday festivities, get an event ricket." The scenery changes, the exact boss you fight changes, but the ticket requirements are no different.


And I'm still not convinced by the "Oh, no, I have to do content I dislike three times!" point. The three times are the two Midyear Mayhems and the event that replaced/combined the old Imperial City Event and Orsinium Event.

Which one do you want to remove?

So no, it's completely valid that ZOS "required" it three times in a year. I believe we agree that this event should have included the PVE IC dungeons as ticket requirements as well like they did in the past, but ZOS didn't do that, and that's their privilege to decide.

We've debated this "no other zone is required 3 times" several times now and I suspect it's not getting more convincing for either of us with repetition.

[edited for baiting]

I would question why ZOS has to "force" people into a zone so often to give it any semblance of life.

I would question if it is good for their community long term to continue forcing them to do content that is so widely disliked.

Like, I'm not sure why there is a problem when ZOS continues to push people into a zone that they don't like, to endure a playstyle that they don't like, but then there is so much resistance when they come to the forums to say "we don't like this content"

I would ask why is there so much resistance to the idea that people don't like this content?

SeaGtGruff

I don't think there's resistance to the idea that some people don't like IC, or for that fact any other specific zone or content. If you don't like something, that's fine-- don't eat it, drink it, watch it, read it, listen to it, play it, etc., according to what "it" is. But there's no need to tell everyone "I don't like this, and no one should be trying to force me into eating/drinking/watching/reading/listening/playing it!" No one's forced to do any content in this game; it's all your choice to do it or to not do it.

The "resistance" is to all of the complaining about it. Some of the "resistance" is from people who are tired of listening to the complaints, while other "resistance" is from people who try to offer advice to help players who act like they genuinely want to get that second ticket each day but say they aren't able to get it.

VaranisArano

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whoops, draft quote.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Oh, you think event ticket requirements need to be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable? Okay...

So we'll remove the Dark Brotherhood Heists and Sacraments from their event, because I strongly dislike them. It's not fun, engaging, or enjoyable as I look up a guide to figure out that the route I need to get to my Sacrament target requires doing a bit of parkour or won't show up on the map until I'm practically right on top of it.

Actually, we need to cancel the DB/TG events entirely, because goody-two-shoes roleplayers can't be required to do evil things in order to get their event tickets - and yes, these are genuine complaints I've heard on the forums.

We also have to nix the Undaunted Event, because of genuine complaints on the forums for players who hate grouping with others and can't solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1 object to being forced into group dungeons. Then add in the complaints from players who have bad experiences with fake roles or people rushing through the dungeons. Neither fun, nor enjoyable, nor engaging, and after the PVP events, Undaunted probably has the highest level of salt spilled over it.

So sorry, but I repeat that I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. If the playerbase did get to exclude content from every event based on likes/dislikes, it wouldn't be just the PVP events up on the chopping block.

Ultimately, ZOS decides what content makes the cut for events, not your personal likes and dislikes. Events do not cater to you. Or me, for that matter, or I'd never be "forced" to run another Sacrament or Heist ever again for event tickets.

Not a single one of those things I'd required THREE TIMES over the course of a year for tickets.

Hell, not a single one of those things is required even twice.

That is absolutely besides the point of someone saying that content should be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable to be required for an event. If that is the standard that FlopsyPrince wants to hold, then I repeat that a lot more events have to go.

Also, we definitely had a year with double TG/DB events. There were plenty of complaints. [snip] Not to mention that there's functionally zero difference between "do a delve or world boss daily" in various PVE zones. There's functionally no difference between the Jesters and New Life festivals- it's all "get a short quest, do ridiculous holiday festivities, get an event ricket." The scenery changes, the exact boss you fight changes, but the ticket requirements are no different.


And I'm still not convinced by the "Oh, no, I have to do content I dislike three times!" point. The three times are the two Midyear Mayhems and the event that replaced/combined the old Imperial City Event and Orsinium Event.

Which one do you want to remove?

So no, it's completely valid that ZOS "required" it three times in a year. I believe we agree that this event should have included the PVE IC dungeons as ticket requirements as well like they did in the past, but ZOS didn't do that, and that's their privilege to decide.

We've debated this "no other zone is required 3 times" several times now and I suspect it's not getting more convincing for either of us with repetition.

[edited for baiting]

I would question why ZOS has to "force" people into a zone so often to give it any semblance of life.

I would question if it is good for their community long term to continue forcing them to do content that is so widely disliked.

Like, I'm not sure why there is a problem when ZOS continues to push people into a zone that they don't like, to endure a playstyle that they don't like, but then there is so much resistance when they come to the forums to say "we don't like this content"

I would ask why is there so much resistance to the idea that people don't like this content?

I don't usually see a lot of resistance from players in these various discussions to the idea that some people don't like the content.

I do see a lot of resistance to the idea that because some people don't like the content, therefore, ZOS should not ever require players to do the content in order to get event tickets.

That argument happens every single time ZOS requires going into a PvPvE zone for event tickets as PVEers go to the forums to complain and yet ZOS doesn't change a thing.

Unless you were trying to ask why ZOS is so resistant to the idea that some players really don't want to go to IC and keeps requiring it anyways?

That's a question for ZOS. I wish you luck getting answers before Whitestrake's Mayhem rolls around and we find out if ZOS requires Imperial City Districts again.

Franchise408

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think there's resistance to the idea that some people don't like IC, or for that fact any other specific zone or content. If you don't like something, that's fine-- don't eat it, drink it, watch it, read it, listen to it, play it, etc., according to what "it" is. But there's no need to tell everyone "I don't like this, and no one should be trying to force me into eating/drinking/watching/reading/listening/playing it!" No one's forced to do any content in this game; it's all your choice to do it or to not do it.

The "resistance" is to all of the complaining about it. Some of the "resistance" is from people who are tired of listening to the complaints, while other "resistance" is from people who try to offer advice to help players who act like they genuinely want to get that second ticket each day but say they aren't able to get it.

This is an MMO. The entire design premise around MMO's is about getting rewards. The rewards offered through these events aren't PVE or PVP rewards, they are base character rewards, and unique ones that cannot be obtained in any other way than to log in and do the events for rewards.

PVE events take only the time it takes for a world boss to spawn before it gets nuked down in 5 seconds.

PVP events are entirely dependent on how many people are around when you log in. In my own personal experiences, PVP event activities can take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour or more.

There is not an equivalent here between the 2. PVP'ers forced to engage in PVE for event rewards need to do PVE for literally 5 minutes and don't even need to swap gear for it (no PVE event content requires gearing or preparation, because it is always stuff like delves or world bosses that can be done in sub-160 voidsteel - especially world bosses that will have dozens of people at a time burning them down)

The only event that might take any sort of commitment from a PVP'er is the Undaunted event, and thats only as long as it takes to run through a normal dungeon, which can be done in 15-20 minutes.

PVE'ers going into PVP are subject to not only having to jump through all these hoops just to be able survive, they also have to deal with other players who's sole goal during the event is to grief and annoy PVE'ers as much as possible.

So yes - as someone who is pro PVP (even though I don't often play it), PVE'ers have to go through a whole hell of a lot more for an event ticket than PVP'ers do. There is not equity in the efforts the 2 sides have to take to engage in the other's content, and one of those are subjected to content which is actively and intentionally aggravating and frustrating.

It is *not* the same as having to do a delve quest or a Dark Brotherhood target or anything like that.

So yes, all of the complaints about being forced to do IC are entirely valid.

Especially when it is imposed 3 times a year, when no other single zone gets 3 events a year.

Especially when this event isn't a PVP event, and could just as easily include ICP / WGT

TequilaFire

They probably left ICP and WGT out this time because they haven't had time to fix bugs they picked up.

VaranisArano

TequilaFire wrote: »

They probably left ICP and WGT out this time because they haven't had time to fix bugs they picked up.

That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of. I mean, when one of the two options has a bug that makes the final boss invulnerable, I can see where that's a problem.

On the other hand, they've canceled Midyear Mayhem before because Battlegrounds queue was badly bugged. So there's precedent for canceling the IC portion because one of the event ticket options wasn't working.

SeaGtGruff

Franchise408 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think there's resistance to the idea that some people don't like IC, or for that fact any other specific zone or content. If you don't like something, that's fine-- don't eat it, drink it, watch it, read it, listen to it, play it, etc., according to what "it" is. But there's no need to tell everyone "I don't like this, and no one should be trying to force me into eating/drinking/watching/reading/listening/playing it!" No one's forced to do any content in this game; it's all your choice to do it or to not do it.

The "resistance" is to all of the complaining about it. Some of the "resistance" is from people who are tired of listening to the complaints, while other "resistance" is from people who try to offer advice to help players who act like they genuinely want to get that second ticket each day but say they aren't able to get it.

This is an MMO. The entire design premise around MMO's is about getting rewards. The rewards offered through these events aren't PVE or PVP rewards, they are base character rewards, and unique ones that cannot be obtained in any other way than to log in and do the events for rewards.

PVE events take only the time it takes for a world boss to spawn before it gets nuked down in 5 seconds.

PVP events are entirely dependent on how many people are around when you log in. In my own personal experiences, PVP event activities can take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour or more.

There is not an equivalent here between the 2. PVP'ers forced to engage in PVE for event rewards need to do PVE for literally 5 minutes and don't even need to swap gear for it (no PVE event content requires gearing or preparation, because it is always stuff like delves or world bosses that can be done in sub-160 voidsteel - especially world bosses that will have dozens of people at a time burning them down)

The only event that might take any sort of commitment from a PVP'er is the Undaunted event, and thats only as long as it takes to run through a normal dungeon, which can be done in 15-20 minutes.

PVE'ers going into PVP are subject to not only having to jump through all these hoops just to be able survive, they also have to deal with other players who's sole goal during the event is to grief and annoy PVE'ers as much as possible.

So yes - as someone who is pro PVP (even though I don't often play it), PVE'ers have to go through a whole hell of a lot more for an event ticket than PVP'ers do. There is not equity in the efforts the 2 sides have to take to engage in the other's content, and one of those are subjected to content which is actively and intentionally aggravating and frustrating.

It is *not* the same as having to do a delve quest or a Dark Brotherhood target or anything like that.

So yes, all of the complaints about being forced to do IC are entirely valid.

Especially when it is imposed 3 times a year, when no other single zone gets 3 events a year.

Especially when this event isn't a PVP event, and could just as easily include ICP / WGT

IMHO, no, they are not really "valid"-- neither in the sense of anyone being "forced" to do anything, nor in the sense of needing to engage in PvP to get the 1 ticket per day in IC.

People have already explained how it's possible to get the Arena daily done without leaving the entry platform, and as long as someone is willing to wait patiently for other players of their alliance to free the citizens near the base of the platform it's still possible (I think) to get credit for freeing them without actually leaving the trapdoor entry point and exposing oneself to being sniped from below.

I understand from personal experience that it's easy to get frustrated or angry, and that it can be satisfying to complain about stuff and vent off some of that frustration or anger. And everyone has the right to like some things and dislike other things, as well as to complain about things they don't like. But people do get weary of listening to other people complain.

TBH, some people quite frankly don't want to be helped. I understand that from personal experience, too, because there are certainly things that I don't want help with.

But when people complain about not being able to do something, and are offered helpful tips, but seem to want to spend their time on complaining about it rather than on trying to do it, it becomes a pointless situation for everyone involved-- a waste of everyone's time and energy.

Franchise408

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think there's resistance to the idea that some people don't like IC, or for that fact any other specific zone or content. If you don't like something, that's fine-- don't eat it, drink it, watch it, read it, listen to it, play it, etc., according to what "it" is. But there's no need to tell everyone "I don't like this, and no one should be trying to force me into eating/drinking/watching/reading/listening/playing it!" No one's forced to do any content in this game; it's all your choice to do it or to not do it.

The "resistance" is to all of the complaining about it. Some of the "resistance" is from people who are tired of listening to the complaints, while other "resistance" is from people who try to offer advice to help players who act like they genuinely want to get that second ticket each day but say they aren't able to get it.

This is an MMO. The entire design premise around MMO's is about getting rewards. The rewards offered through these events aren't PVE or PVP rewards, they are base character rewards, and unique ones that cannot be obtained in any other way than to log in and do the events for rewards.

PVE events take only the time it takes for a world boss to spawn before it gets nuked down in 5 seconds.

PVP events are entirely dependent on how many people are around when you log in. In my own personal experiences, PVP event activities can take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour or more.

There is not an equivalent here between the 2. PVP'ers forced to engage in PVE for event rewards need to do PVE for literally 5 minutes and don't even need to swap gear for it (no PVE event content requires gearing or preparation, because it is always stuff like delves or world bosses that can be done in sub-160 voidsteel - especially world bosses that will have dozens of people at a time burning them down)

The only event that might take any sort of commitment from a PVP'er is the Undaunted event, and thats only as long as it takes to run through a normal dungeon, which can be done in 15-20 minutes.

PVE'ers going into PVP are subject to not only having to jump through all these hoops just to be able survive, they also have to deal with other players who's sole goal during the event is to grief and annoy PVE'ers as much as possible.

So yes - as someone who is pro PVP (even though I don't often play it), PVE'ers have to go through a whole hell of a lot more for an event ticket than PVP'ers do. There is not equity in the efforts the 2 sides have to take to engage in the other's content, and one of those are subjected to content which is actively and intentionally aggravating and frustrating.

It is *not* the same as having to do a delve quest or a Dark Brotherhood target or anything like that.

So yes, all of the complaints about being forced to do IC are entirely valid.

Especially when it is imposed 3 times a year, when no other single zone gets 3 events a year.

Especially when this event isn't a PVP event, and could just as easily include ICP / WGT

IMHO, no, they are not really "valid"-- neither in the sense of anyone being "forced" to do anything, nor in the sense of needing to engage in PvP to get the 1 ticket per day in IC.

People have already explained how it's possible to get the Arena daily done without leaving the entry platform, and as long as someone is willing to wait patiently for other players of their alliance to free the citizens near the base of the platform it's still possible (I think) to get credit for freeing them without actually leaving the trapdoor entry point and exposing oneself to being sniped from below.

I understand from personal experience that it's easy to get frustrated or angry, and that it can be satisfying to complain about stuff and vent off some of that frustration or anger. And everyone has the right to like some things and dislike other things, as well as to complain about things they don't like. But people do get weary of listening to other people complain.

TBH, some people quite frankly don't want to be helped. I understand that from personal experience, too, because there are certainly things that I don't want help with.

But when people complain about not being able to do something, and are offered helpful tips, but seem to want to spend their time on complaining about it rather than on trying to do it, it becomes a pointless situation for everyone involved-- a waste of everyone's time and energy.

I feel like your post proves the point I'm trying to make

PVP'ers "forced" to PVE: travel to whatever zone is being celebrated, wait 5 minutes tops for the world boss to spawn, it gets burned down by dozens of people, and you get an effortless event ticket.

OR

Go through and do a delve that provides 0 danger to anyone in the game at all whatsoever

PVE'ers "forced" to PVP: cheese the game by sitting atop the faction tower, picking off random stray mobs and hope there are enough people down there to finish it off and give you credit, taking who knows how long

OR

Drop down to do the quest yourself and endure gankers for an hour

OR

Farm separate gear sets and spend gold to respec your attributes and CP's to deck yourself out for actual PVP

The burden that both demographics have to carry to participate in event content is not equal, and thus, the complaints about the events are entirely valid.

The fact that there are tips to give for PVP in the first place proves the point that PVE'ers have to carry a heavier load to participate in event content than PVP'ers, because there are 0 tips or prep needed for PVP'ers to participate in PVE events

Sanctum74

Nobody is forced to do events since they are a completely optional part of the game, but pvp players are forced to pve just so we can create a character, get skill lines, skill points, gear, crafting, mats, etc.

The majority of the game is pve as are the majority of the events so there’s nothing wrong with having to put in a little effort for the very few events pvp players are given since we are forced to do pve just so we can play. The gear argument is also meaningless since 99% of the gear used in pvp is all pve gear.

That’s fine if people don’t want to follow any of the helpful tips people have provided or if they want to skip the event altogether since it’s completely optional, but this victim mentality and not wanting to share the game with others really doesn’t help your argument at all.

Franchise408

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Nobody is forced to do events since they are a completely optional part of the game, but pvp players are forced to pve just so we can create a character, get skill lines, skill points, gear, crafting, mats, etc.

The majority of the game is pve as are the majority of the events so there’s nothing wrong with having to put in a little effort for the very few events pvp players are given since we are forced to do pve just so we can play. The gear argument is also meaningless since 99% of the gear used in pvp is all pve gear.

That’s fine if people don’t want to follow any of the helpful tips people have provided or if they want to skip the event altogether since it’s completely optional, but this victim mentality and not wanting to share the game with others really doesn’t help your argument at all.

Its not about not wanting to share with others, it's about not wanting to be "forced" into a certain aspect of the game.

I'm sorry that PVP'ers have to PVE until level 10 before being able to live in PVP, but this is still a PVE centric game, in a PVE centric IP, with a very PVE centric player base / target audience, so in that regard, you kinda gotta know what you're getting into.

This isn't Call of Duty.

kargen27

Franchise408 wrote: »

Togal wrote: »

You need to prepare for pve right? you need the right gear and setups right? Thats the same in pvp, the difference is you came in unprepared for it. Just run with 50k health and max resistances if you wanna get your dailies done, heck It takes less than 5 minutes to get a daily done for your event ticket in IC and I got it done without any interruption.

No, you do not need to prepare for PVE

At least the PVE that is required for events.

You don't have to prepare for normal trials (Undaunted), you don't have to prepare for world bosses or delves (any anniversary or zone event). There is no PVE that is used for event tickets that you have to "prepare" for

You do need to prepare if you want to do vet content. But vet content has never been required for event tickets.

So it is a false equivalent

You can wear the exact same gear and use the exact same skills and finish all the dailies in Imperial City. Plenty of players going in with their PvE builds are finishing the dailies with little effort.

Sanctum74

Franchise408 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Nobody is forced to do events since they are a completely optional part of the game, but pvp players are forced to pve just so we can create a character, get skill lines, skill points, gear, crafting, mats, etc.

The majority of the game is pve as are the majority of the events so there’s nothing wrong with having to put in a little effort for the very few events pvp players are given since we are forced to do pve just so we can play. The gear argument is also meaningless since 99% of the gear used in pvp is all pve gear.

That’s fine if people don’t want to follow any of the helpful tips people have provided or if they want to skip the event altogether since it’s completely optional, but this victim mentality and not wanting to share the game with others really doesn’t help your argument at all.

Its not about not wanting to share with others, it's about not wanting to be "forced" into a certain aspect of the game.

I'm sorry that PVP'ers have to PVE until level 10 before being able to live in PVP, but this is still a PVE centric game, in a PVE centric IP, with a very PVE centric player base / target audience, so in that regard, you kinda gotta know what you're getting into.

This isn't Call of Duty.

But it is about not wanting to share with others. The majority of the game and events are pve so it is selfish to want to take away from the little bit that we do have and again you are not forced to do anything, but pvp players are well beyond level 10.

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

spartaxoxo

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

I don't recall it being advertised as a PVP game. I remember they advertised the PVP but that's a lot different than calling it a PVP game.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YlEipFtHw7o

As far as I'm aware, they've always advertised it as a game that has both kinds of combat. And that exploration and PvE were always main attractions.

Sanctum74

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

I don't recall it being advertised as a PVP game. I remember they advertised the PVP but that's a lot different than calling it a PVP game.

Read the back of the game box or watch the many promo videos, it was advertised as both.

_adhyffbjjjf12

this game has 3 types of player broadly speaking:

1. Those that like PVP
2. Those that Like PVE
3. Those that like Both.

IC satisfies 2 of those groups so IC a good thing, and satisfies the 3rd if they are willing to adapt (for e.g visualising other players are high level npc's)

The issue is people who label themselves as PVE players who cant adapt but want what they cant adapt to regardless.

spartaxoxo

Sanctum74 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

I don't recall it being advertised as a PVP game. I remember they advertised the PVP but that's a lot different than calling it a PVP game.

Read the back of the game box or watch the many promo videos, it was advertised as both.

I did. I just linked one. Nowhere does that say it's a PVP game. It says MMO. And they made sure to advertise both.

A PVP game implies that PVP is the primary focus of the game, e.g. Call of Duty.

spartaxoxo

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

this game has 3 types of player broadly speaking:

1. Those that like PVP
2. Those that Like PVE
3. Those that like Both.

IC satisfies 2 of those groups so IC a good thing, and satisfies the 3rd if they are willing to adapt (for e.g visualising other players are high level npc's)

The issue is people who label themselves as PVE players who cant adapt but want what they cant adapt to regardless.

I actually know a lot of PVPers that don't like IC either. IC is often dead outside of events. That's a pretty strong indication that it doesn't actually satisfy many people.

Sanctum74

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

I don't recall it being advertised as a PVP game. I remember they advertised the PVP but that's a lot different than calling it a PVP game.

Read the back of the game box or watch the many promo videos, it was advertised as both.

I did. I just linked one. Nowhere does that say it's a PVP game. It says MMO. And they made sure to advertise both.

A PVP game implies that PVP is the primary focus of the game, e.g. Call of Duty.

“A multiplayer rpg, adventure alone, quest with friends, or join an army of thousands in epic player battles” Soooo like I said it was advertised as both so why do pve players feel that they need to take even more away from pvp players when they already have the majority of the game.

spartaxoxo

Sanctum74 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

I don't recall it being advertised as a PVP game. I remember they advertised the PVP but that's a lot different than calling it a PVP game.

Read the back of the game box or watch the many promo videos, it was advertised as both.

I did. I just linked one. Nowhere does that say it's a PVP game. It says MMO. And they made sure to advertise both.

A PVP game implies that PVP is the primary focus of the game, e.g. Call of Duty.

“A multiplayer rpg, adventure alone, quest with friends, or join an army of thousands in epic player battles” Soooo like I said it was advertised as both so why do pve players feel that they need to take even more away from pvp players when they already have the majority of the game.

You didn't argue both at first though. You called it a PVP game. And I pointed out that it was both. Now you're trying to correct me by stating my own point back at me, as if you made my point from the beginning. Like, I know it's both. That was my argument from the beginning.

In the genre of MMO, it's common for PVE to be done to gear up for PVP. That's like standard to the genre. If this were a strictly pvp game it would be like you're arguing "Why are people complaining about being forced to play the competitive game mode to do events, you don't see me complaining about having to play against shotguns."

PvE gear farming for PVP is pretty standard for the genre. On the surface they are the same but it's not actually a 1 to 1 comparison.

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

this game has 3 types of player broadly speaking:

1. Those that like PVP
2. Those that Like PVE
3. Those that like Both.

IC satisfies 2 of those groups so IC a good thing, and satisfies the 3rd if they are willing to adapt (for e.g visualising other players are high level npc's)

The issue is people who label themselves as PVE players who cant adapt but want what they cant adapt to regardless.

I actually know a lot of PVPers that don't like IC either. IC is often dead outside of events. That's a pretty strong indication that it doesn't actually satisfy many people.

It was really popular for a while. That changed when they added the flags. Before it was easy to get back into a fight. Big battles could last for a very long time without one faction getting a huge advantage. Now with the flags if your faction doesn't own the flag you are at a disadvantage because of how long it takes to get back into the zone.

Merforum

WOW, it is interesting to hear them saying 'it is really important that PVP isn't just veteran...it's got to be something people can do from the very beginning'...'even at level 10 you can go into PVP area and have a great time'. HOLY MOLY I bet they never thought it would turn into less than 200 people who have no interest in any of the objectives of the actual PVP mode but just killing beginner players. And creating a vicious cycle of people not getting good at PVP and not playing it because the experience is so bad.

One way to save PVP at this point is to create a much more slowed down version, maybe 1 bar only. NO CP is not an answer because it allows the same sweaty gankers and griefers to go in and ruin the experience for beginners. They need a very much more casual player friendly version if they hope to keep PVP. Slow down the action may also reduce lag since there will be less calculations for server to handle and slower movement will make network ping and framerates properly display on everyone's screen, which is the key to having a legit experience (EVERYONE seeing the exact same thing at the exact same time on each of their screens and input from client reaching the server equally reliably).

https://youtu.be/YlEipFtHw7o?t=471

Tried to save at 7:50 in clip but that is where quote it.

BTW low pop in PVP has nothing to do with the rewards.

stefj68

still think their should be no leads in pvp zone. a pvper should be skilled enough to kill any pve overland contents. but vise versa is not true!

FENGRUSH

These threads have popped up for years every event. It's always a fun read watching people spend more time justifying easy street than just doing the quests. People get super worked up when a player kills their character.

IC events used to have a lot of fun in the center. Not a single fight at molag bal this event. Pretty sad. But it'll be my last, and a lot of other pvpers with new world coming.

People wanting a pve only event has been there for years. The recent turns of balance has made the game less inviting to new players. So while they call pvpers grifers, you can kinda understand because sets are pretty busted, along with this meta. But to call pvpers griefers for killing other faction members in a pvp zone...? These are just people that shouldn't have entered a pvp zone to begin with.

I forsee the pve only zones could happen in the next 1-2 years. There may not be that much population left to warrant its upkeep. The audience has mostly shifted to a bold casual majority. A lot of people that stuck around from 2014-2016 played a much different game now.

Thannazzar

As a PVEr I loved this year's IC event. All the PVPrs are in IC and I managed to get the Cyrodil fishing achievement unmolested

VaranisArano

Thannazzar wrote: »

As a PVEr I loved this year's IC event. All the PVPrs are in IC and I managed to get the Cyrodil fishing achievement unmolested

Congrats!

Franchise408

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Nobody is forced to do events since they are a completely optional part of the game, but pvp players are forced to pve just so we can create a character, get skill lines, skill points, gear, crafting, mats, etc.

The majority of the game is pve as are the majority of the events so there’s nothing wrong with having to put in a little effort for the very few events pvp players are given since we are forced to do pve just so we can play. The gear argument is also meaningless since 99% of the gear used in pvp is all pve gear.

That’s fine if people don’t want to follow any of the helpful tips people have provided or if they want to skip the event altogether since it’s completely optional, but this victim mentality and not wanting to share the game with others really doesn’t help your argument at all.

Its not about not wanting to share with others, it's about not wanting to be "forced" into a certain aspect of the game.

I'm sorry that PVP'ers have to PVE until level 10 before being able to live in PVP, but this is still a PVE centric game, in a PVE centric IP, with a very PVE centric player base / target audience, so in that regard, you kinda gotta know what you're getting into.

This isn't Call of Duty.

But it is about not wanting to share with others. The majority of the game and events are pve so it is selfish to want to take away from the little bit that we do have and again you are not forced to do anything, but pvp players are well beyond level 10.

The game was highly publicized as a pvp game and that’s fine if you prefer the pve side, but to continue to discount that and expect the game to be catered to you is kind of silly.

The majority of the game is PVE because it's a PVE game first and foremost, an addition to a PVE IP, and it's target audience is a PVE crowd.

Nobody is asking for PVP events to be excluded - I'm sure not at least.

I'm simply saying that perhaps one of the most disliked zones in the game shouldn't be getting the heaviest focus of a year's events over any other zone.

But we're arguing in circles at this point, so I'll leave my side at that.

Parasaurolophus

@Franchise408

The majority of the game is PVE because it's a PVE game first and foremost, an addition to a PVE IP, and it's target audience is a PVE crowd.

Most of this game is casual. These are the same players who complain that they cannot pass the normal dungeon without the actual tank and healing. These are the same people who complain about the difficult of dragons and harrow storms. Of course, for these people, pvp is something completely inaccessible. I am a high end pve player and all my friends and raid mates do not treat pvp as badly as on the forum. Everybody plays pvp one way or another sometimes and nobody complains.
PVE is at least a veteran dungeons. Overland, housng and questing are not pve.

VaranisArano

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

@Franchise408

The majority of the game is PVE because it's a PVE game first and foremost, an addition to a PVE IP, and it's target audience is a PVE crowd.

Most of this game is casual. These are the same players who complain that they cannot pass the normal dungeon without the actual tank and healing. These are the same people who complain about the difficult of dragons and harrow storms. Of course, for these people, pvp is something completely inaccessible. I am a high end pve player and all my friends and raid mates do not treat pvp as badly as on the forum. Everybody plays pvp one way or another sometimes and nobody complains.
PVE is at least a veteran dungeons. Overland, housng and questing are not pve.

Eh, if it's player vs environment, it's PVE.

But yes, I think there's a fairly good overlap between PVP and Endgame PVE, if only because dedicated PVPers often want the perfected weapons and gear they get from endgame PVE.

It's why I kinda chuckle over the "A Modest Proposal" style posts about "Well, why not require Vet Trials for Events? That'll really show those PVPers!"

Eh, pretty sure that's going to spite the really casual PVEers far worse than it will most PVPers...

Parasaurolophus

VaranisArano wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

@Franchise408

The majority of the game is PVE because it's a PVE game first and foremost, an addition to a PVE IP, and it's target audience is a PVE crowd.

Most of this game is casual. These are the same players who complain that they cannot pass the normal dungeon without the actual tank and healing. These are the same people who complain about the difficult of dragons and harrow storms. Of course, for these people, pvp is something completely inaccessible. I am a high end pve player and all my friends and raid mates do not treat pvp as badly as on the forum. Everybody plays pvp one way or another sometimes and nobody complains.
PVE is at least a veteran dungeons. Overland, housng and questing are not pve.

Eh, if it's player vs environment, it's PVE.

But yes, I think there's a fairly good overlap between PVP and Endgame PVE, if only because dedicated PVPers often want the perfected weapons and gear they get from endgame PVE.

It's why I kinda chuckle over the "A Modest Proposal" style posts about "Well, why not require Vet Trials for Events? That'll really show those PVPers!"

Eh, pretty sure that's going to spite the really casual PVEers far worse than it will most PVPers...

It's not just that pvpers have to farm their gear in dungeons and trials. They can farm it in normals. It's just a different attitude to the game, looking for interesting gameplay and challenge.