Why PvErs don't like IC

jerj6925

Just make a PVE version of Imperial city and problem solved for everyone.
PVP used to be fun when all classes and builds were a viable option but that has not been the case for over 5 years. Now if you are going to be competitive in PVP you cant play what you want how you want you must play the meta builds meaning you must keep farming new armor and changing your race and class and bla bla bla every update IF YOU WANT TO BE COMPETATIVE, otherwise you just end up as fodder and that’s only fun for one and not the other.

FENGRUSH

jerj6925 wrote: »

Just make a PVE version of Imperial city and problem solved for everyone.
PVP used to be fun when all classes and builds were a viable option but that has not been the case for over 5 years. Now if you are going to be competitive in PVP you cant play what you want how you want you must play the meta builds meaning you must keep farming new armor and changing your race and class and bla bla bla every update IF YOU WANT TO BE COMPETATIVE, otherwise you just end up as fodder and that’s only fun for one and not the other.

Actually 5 years ago all classes weren't viable at all. They all are now, you just have to use the meta sets.

NupidStoob

The main reason PvErs don't like it is not that it's a PvP zone, but because people take advantage of them being ill equipped for PvP.

You never see as many gankers/bombers outside of these events. People literally make toons just to hunt others that are worse equipped/skilled than them. There is no competitiveness. It's just people abusing everything to the max to etch out any little advantage they can get. For many of them that's the only time they can actually have a feeling of success in PvP. It's literally like adults gearing up to beat up children and nobody likes being the child in that scenario.

shadyjane62

I pvp, have always pvp'd and I will never set foot in IC again.

Franchise408

NupidStoob wrote: »

The main reason PvErs don't like it is not that it's a PvP zone, but because people take advantage of them being ill equipped for PvP.

You never see as many gankers/bombers outside of these events. People literally make toons just to hunt others that are worse equipped/skilled than them. There is no competitiveness. It's just people abusing everything to the max to etch out any little advantage they can get. For many of them that's the only time they can actually have a feeling of success in PvP. It's literally like adults gearing up to beat up children and nobody likes being the child in that scenario.

100% agreed

VaranisArano

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

And as we spoke about in the other thread - if something is so widely disliked, as IC is, then should it be the biggest focus of the year's events?

But also... if something is so widely disliked, as IC is, and IC players continue to defend that the things PVE'ers hate about it is the intended form of play in IC, then you also can't be upset when outside of events that funnel people into the zone, it's dead and there's nothing going on in that zone. If that's the sort of gameplay IC players want, then they have to accept that it is going to be a completely dead zone outside of the couple times a year people are funneled in for a ticket.

Don't believe I've ever complained that not many people go to IC outside of Events. Outside of events, IC is very good for dueling and really small scale encounters which aren't going to appeal to everyone.

And you're right, we already talked about the two Midyear Mayhem and Year One events on the other thread. We've had 2 MYM and an Imperial City Event before, so I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. Because if we had to pick the three most widely disliked events, let's be honest, we know exactly which three PVEers would put up on the chopping block.

VaranisArano

NupidStoob wrote: »

The main reason PvErs don't like it is not that it's a PvP zone, but because people take advantage of them being ill equipped for PvP.

You never see as many gankers/bombers outside of these events. People literally make toons just to hunt others that are worse equipped/skilled than them. There is no competitiveness. It's just people abusing everything to the max to etch out any little advantage they can get. For many of them that's the only time they can actually have a feeling of success in PvP. It's literally like adults gearing up to beat up children and nobody likes being the child in that scenario.

Gankers and bombers follow the player population. That's true in Cyrodiil outside of events. If you want to gank people, you set up in the PVP choke points or in transit areas between keeps or you stick to the PVP-objective towns because that way you'll see some players. Cheydinhal and Chorrol are mostly dead outside of events. Ypu could could there for hours and hardly see a player- what ganker wants to do that? It's especially true of bombers, because the whole point of bombing is to kill a large group of players. Outside of events, Imperial City has a lot more small scale groups, so there's not much to bomb in the first place.

What do events do?

Bring a lot of players around to different places, PVEers and PVPers alike. Of course you see more gankers and bombers in towns and IC during events - that's where the players are.

I'm sorry, but it's worth considering just how much ESO's PVP and Imperial City in particular incentivizes and rewards stealth-based high risk/high reward gameplay like gankers and bombers before you go around throwing out insults based on playstyles that ZOS allows, intends, and designed for.

Ippokrates

VaranisArano wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

The main reason PvErs don't like it is not that it's a PvP zone, but because people take advantage of them being ill equipped for PvP.

You never see as many gankers/bombers outside of these events. People literally make toons just to hunt others that are worse equipped/skilled than them. There is no competitiveness. It's just people abusing everything to the max to etch out any little advantage they can get. For many of them that's the only time they can actually have a feeling of success in PvP. It's literally like adults gearing up to beat up children and nobody likes being the child in that scenario.

Gankers and bombers follow the player population. That's true in Cyrodiil outside of events. If you want to gank people, you set up in the PVP choke points or in transit areas between keeps or you stick to the PVP-objective towns because that way you'll see some players. Cheydinhal and Chorrol are mostly dead outside of events. Ypu could could there for hours and hardly see a player- what ganker wants to do that? It's especially true of bombers, because the whole point of bombing is to kill a large group of players. Outside of events, Imperial City has a lot more small scale groups, so there's not much to bomb in the first place.

What do events do?

Bring a lot of players around to different places, PVEers and PVPers alike. Of course you see more gankers and bombers in towns and IC during events - that's where the players are.

I'm sorry, but it's worth considering just how much ESO's PVP and Imperial City in particular incentivizes and rewards stealth-based high risk/high reward gameplay like gankers and bombers before you go around throwing out insults based on playstyles that ZOS allows, intends, and designed for.

But how it incentivizes anything if most pvers are killed just outside the base, with maybe 100 TV they were able to get? (not mentioning very poor choice of rewards in the event merch).

PvP has many advantages over PvE. It offers a real choices in making your build and challenges in testing it, when you can face an another person, not a pre-made theme park.

But in reality, what can we see now? A bunch of griefers mindlessly attacking everyone, especially in vulnerable position to... do what exactly? Not to gain TV, that is for sure. Or satisfaction, cause you must be a total loser if killing someone not prepared is making you aroused ^^

[snip]

Can't they really invent something more subtle or more diverse that would appeal to broader playerbase? So everyone have chance to do what they like?

Ok, at some point this event has a potential to be such thing, because it offers a really nice bonuses in overland content for collectors & gatherers. But why for Vivec's sake, both tickets cannot be obtained only by overland content? Or PvP content for pvpers?

[edited for bashing]

Franchise408

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

And as we spoke about in the other thread - if something is so widely disliked, as IC is, then should it be the biggest focus of the year's events?

But also... if something is so widely disliked, as IC is, and IC players continue to defend that the things PVE'ers hate about it is the intended form of play in IC, then you also can't be upset when outside of events that funnel people into the zone, it's dead and there's nothing going on in that zone. If that's the sort of gameplay IC players want, then they have to accept that it is going to be a completely dead zone outside of the couple times a year people are funneled in for a ticket.

Don't believe I've ever complained that not many people go to IC outside of Events. Outside of events, IC is very good for dueling and really small scale encounters which aren't going to appeal to everyone.

And you're right, we already talked about the two Midyear Mayhem and Year One events on the other thread. We've had 2 MYM and an Imperial City Event before, so I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. Because if we had to pick the three most widely disliked events, let's be honest, we know exactly which three PVEers would put up on the chopping block.

I never said exclude it, neither here, nor in our previous conversations.

I'm suggesting that perhaps ZOS does not need to require Imperial City more than any other zone in the game over the course of the year.

Imperial City is the only zone that is required 3 times for event rewards. Imperial City is also the most vocally disliked zone of all of the required-for-event-rewards zones.

I'm not suggesting that Imperial City be excluded in events. I'm suggesting that it's a bad decision to require such a disliked zone to be required more than any other zone in the game, and it's a bad decision to reward / encourage more than any other through these events a playstyle that is so vocally detested among the community.

And more than anything, I am supporting that it is completely valid and legitimate to so dislike Imperial City and its encouraged playstyle. It is a style of gaming that is off-putting for quite possibly the majority of the game's community - not because of the fact that it is PVP, but due to the fact that, as described very wonderfully above, it is a playstyle that encourages preying on helpless people who don't even want to be there in the first place. It encourages a playstyle that goes against a competitive spirit and good sportsmanship, and so it is very understandable and valid that so many people would hate having to go into the zone.

There is no PVE content that gives PVP'ers the same level of frustration and dissatisfaction as what Imperial City and the encouraged ganking gives to PVE'ers.

FlopsyPrince

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Such people do not exist. Don't rely on some mythical "person who was locked out" as the solution. Few zones have a waiting list at all, so this is an incorrect claim.

At certain times-- especially during events, which are usually the only times when many PvErs have any desire at all to enter PvP zones-- the populations are so high that there are waiting queues to enter a given campaign-- so, yes, it's certainly possible for a PvEr who enters one of those campaigns to be "taking the spot" that a PvPer would otherwise have taken.

I have not had a single wait queue for IC this event, for example. The main Cyrodiil area did have a waitlist for me a couple of times, but I was only in there briefly.

That is why I say this is not an issue.

What is an issue is that I go to the campaign where I think my faction is dominant only to get repeatedly ganked, often by roaming groups of the others. They do know where to hunt....

VaranisArano wrote: »

Mandragora wrote: »

I would revert the question - I don't understand why I should go there. I tried, there is a lot of mobs like in any other PVE zone, only here you have players free and encouraged to insta RIP you. Why would you want to do any content there? There are no interesting mechanics, nothing encouraging fair and fun PVP either. I don't get it - why do you want such zone if you are not that kind of player who enjoy cheesing pvp builds to feel powerfull by ganking others?
I believe that the biggest reason why battle royale are so popular is that they are quite fair.

Well, my experience is that most people go to Imperial City because they like it there - when events aren't on, you do get more of the dueling/small scale battles that some PVPers prefer and it's faster than roaming around Cyrodiil looking for like-minded players - or because they want the rewards, quests, leads, skyshards, fish, achievements, etc. that are included in that PvPvE zone.

If you don't want the rewards or other stuff in the zone, by all means, don't go.

If you do, such as the numerous people complaining that they hate Imperial City but they want the skyshards, leads, Tel Var, or event tickets ZOS put in that zone anyway, then it's 100% up to you if it's worth it to you to do content you dislike. If you decided you want the rewards, then go, and don't complain when the zone is exactly as "unfair" as is designed and intended.


I prefer Cyrodiil group battles for PVP and I've learned I'm not particularly good at Tel Var farming. So I'd count myself in the group who goes out to Imperial City for its unique features and rewards like the zone quest (which I loved, but YMMV), the skyshards, the fish, and unique event rewards. The Events give me an excuse to head out to IC for a while, pick up the rewards I want, and then head back to my regular play in Cyrodiil and overland PVE.

I had an extensive amount of Tel Var piled up on the PS4, so I am not quite sure what it is good for. I think the fact I had to go to someplace it was risky to get to so I could use it (or so I believe) kept me from finding the value for it. Fortunately (or not) I am a hoarder, so I just pile it up.

Lumsdenml

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

ZOS should make a white banner pve players can equip that makes them impervious to player damage. this way you can go in the sewers or cyro to do dungeons, dolmens, etc…..

Nothing like making it all the way to the middle of the sewers to fight the boss to be ganked or steamrolled by a ball group.

No. Let's not dumb down the content.

Why would that be "dumbing down the content"? You make the claim, please back it up.

Because any rewards that you receive, be them monster helms, leads, tickets, or anything else, in that zone should be earned. This includes facing other players, which is hard. Should I be able to get skins and titles from a vet trial by doing an easier version of that trial?

FlopsyPrince

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Lumsdenml

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Would you try to solo a vet trial? Of course not.

If a PvE event required PvPers to complete a vet trial, then I suppose that would be an apt comparison. Right now, PvEers are expected to compete in trial-level difficulty, while the worst PvPers have to do is a world boss or a normal 4-man dungeon, one of which can be soloed naked, and the other of which can be PUGed naked and still take less than 10 minutes.

No one is REQUIRED to get event tickets. You want Perfected VA weapons, go get them. You want that really cool title from doing a vet trial, go do it. You want an event ticket in IC, go get it. Don't make the content easier because you can't or don't like to do the content to get them. Just like being able to complete a vet DLC dungeon, you have to have skill and gear to complete it. Why should IC be any different?

FlopsyPrince

Lumsdenml wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

akdave0 wrote: »

ZOS should make a white banner pve players can equip that makes them impervious to player damage. this way you can go in the sewers or cyro to do dungeons, dolmens, etc…..

Nothing like making it all the way to the middle of the sewers to fight the boss to be ganked or steamrolled by a ball group.

No. Let's not dumb down the content.

Why would that be "dumbing down the content"? You make the claim, please back it up.

Because any rewards that you receive, be them monster helms, leads, tickets, or anything else, in that zone should be earned. This includes facing other players, which is hard. Should I be able to get skins and titles from a vet trial by doing an easier version of that trial?

I don't get those rewards and have never requested them. Tickets are different.

Though I am facing having no use for mine this time due to foolishness by ZOS.

FlopsyPrince

Lumsdenml wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Would you try to solo a vet trial? Of course not.

If a PvE event required PvPers to complete a vet trial, then I suppose that would be an apt comparison. Right now, PvEers are expected to compete in trial-level difficulty, while the worst PvPers have to do is a world boss or a normal 4-man dungeon, one of which can be soloed naked, and the other of which can be PUGed naked and still take less than 10 minutes.

No one is REQUIRED to get event tickets. You want Perfected VA weapons, go get them. You want that really cool title from doing a vet trial, go do it. You want an event ticket in IC, go get it. Don't make the content easier because you can't or don't like to do the content to get them. Just like being able to complete a vet DLC dungeon, you have to have skill and gear to complete it. Why should IC be any different?

Things that will never be available again are hidden behind tickets. That makes the argument fail.

Lumsdenml

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Would you try to solo a vet trial? Of course not.

If a PvE event required PvPers to complete a vet trial, then I suppose that would be an apt comparison. Right now, PvEers are expected to compete in trial-level difficulty, while the worst PvPers have to do is a world boss or a normal 4-man dungeon, one of which can be soloed naked, and the other of which can be PUGed naked and still take less than 10 minutes.

No one is REQUIRED to get event tickets. You want Perfected VA weapons, go get them. You want that really cool title from doing a vet trial, go do it. You want an event ticket in IC, go get it. Don't make the content easier because you can't or don't like to do the content to get them. Just like being able to complete a vet DLC dungeon, you have to have skill and gear to complete it. Why should IC be any different?

Things that will never be available again are hidden behind tickets. That makes the argument fail.

You are not REQUIRED to get the things that are hidden behind tickets. If you want the thing, go get it.

FlopsyPrince

Lumsdenml wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

Would you try to solo a vet trial? Of course not.

If a PvE event required PvPers to complete a vet trial, then I suppose that would be an apt comparison. Right now, PvEers are expected to compete in trial-level difficulty, while the worst PvPers have to do is a world boss or a normal 4-man dungeon, one of which can be soloed naked, and the other of which can be PUGed naked and still take less than 10 minutes.

No one is REQUIRED to get event tickets. You want Perfected VA weapons, go get them. You want that really cool title from doing a vet trial, go do it. You want an event ticket in IC, go get it. Don't make the content easier because you can't or don't like to do the content to get them. Just like being able to complete a vet DLC dungeon, you have to have skill and gear to complete it. Why should IC be any different?

Things that will never be available again are hidden behind tickets. That makes the argument fail.

You are not REQUIRED to get the things that are hidden behind tickets. If you want the thing, go get it.

You aren't REQUIRED to do almost anything. That makes the argument false.

Of course they can gate things however they want. Bad decisions there can make for a very poor game and hinder its long term prospects, as has been seen with several games, including World of Warcraft as a surprising example.

rbfrgsp

IC is just a bad game mode, pure and simple. PvPvE is a bad idea on a conceptual level and every bit of gameplay you build on top of that flawed foundation makes it stinkier.

Worst of both worlds, guaranteed to please no-one. GG.

SeaGtGruff

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Such people do not exist. Don't rely on some mythical "person who was locked out" as the solution. Few zones have a waiting list at all, so this is an incorrect claim.

At certain times-- especially during events, which are usually the only times when many PvErs have any desire at all to enter PvP zones-- the populations are so high that there are waiting queues to enter a given campaign-- so, yes, it's certainly possible for a PvEr who enters one of those campaigns to be "taking the spot" that a PvPer would otherwise have taken.

I have not had a single wait queue for IC this event, for example. The main Cyrodiil area did have a waitlist for me a couple of times, but I was only in there briefly.

That is why I say this is not an issue.

What is an issue is that I go to the campaign where I think my faction is dominant only to get repeatedly ganked, often by roaming groups of the others. They do know where to hunt....

But your comment that people aren't being locked out of a campaign was in response to someone who used that as one of their objections to why your suggestion about a white "immunity" banner was a bad idea. Speaking in general, it was a valid point. These events where ZOS adds more campaigns to accommodate an increased number of players in an event zone isn't the norm, it's the exception. So no, players being unable to enter a zone due to pop lock isn't some "mythical" situation.

VaranisArano

Whoops, draft quote.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Oh, you think event ticket requirements need to be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable? Okay...

So we'll remove the Dark Brotherhood Heists and Sacraments from their event, because I strongly dislike them. It's not fun, engaging, or enjoyable as I look up a guide to figure out that the route I need to get to my Sacrament target requires doing a bit of parkour or won't show up on the map until I'm practically right on top of it.

[snip]

We also have to nix the Undaunted Event, because of genuine complaints on the forums for players who hate grouping with others and can't solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1 object to being forced into group dungeons. Then add in the complaints from players who have bad experiences with fake roles or people rushing through the dungeons. Neither fun, nor enjoyable, nor engaging, and after the PVP events, Undaunted probably has the highest level of salt spilled over it.

So sorry, but I repeat that I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. If the playerbase did get to exclude content from every event based on likes/dislikes, it wouldn't be just the PVP events up on the chopping block.

Ultimately, ZOS decides what content makes the cut for events, not your personal likes and dislikes. Events do not cater to you. Or me, for that matter, or I'd never be "forced" to run another Sacrament or Heist ever again for event tickets.

[edited for baiting]

Ippokrates

But wouldn't be nice if the forum pops would encourage ZOS to take a little broader approach to those events?

Do not stick to heist or black sacraments but made event for thiefs and assassins in both: overland & pvp (ic/cyro) content. Steal something, kill someone, maybe make some scouting...

Or make unique solo Undaunted challenges & rewards for those who like to beat dungs alone (of course excluding mechanically not possible to pass dungs).

This is the game. Sure, people have a lot of ideas and sometimes it takes a lot of work to implement them (if it is possible in the 1st place), but overall wouldn't be good if ESO would be developing their content instead of repeating the same formula again and again?

Sylvermynx

*shrug* @Ippokrates - the number of people posting on the forum here is most likely a very small percentage of the number of players overall. This has been true for every game forum I've ever spent time on, beginning in 1997 when I spent a good bit of time on Bioware's forum prior to their Baldur's Gate I release. No, that wasn't an mmo.

I also spent a number of years on WoW's forums, as well as RIFT's. The CS people on both acknowledged that the forum pop was less than 1% of the total game player pop (and in WoW's case, it was more like less than 1/10th of a percent). There are many many players of games, both mmos and single player games, who never mess with a game's forum at all, or access only the tech support forum when a problem arises.

I'm an oddball I guess. I like interacting on forums, trying to help people who have questions to which I know the answers. Some of us are weird that way....

VaranisArano

Ippokrates wrote: »

But wouldn't be nice if the forum pops would encourage ZOS to take a little broader approach to those events?

Do not stick to heist or black sacraments but made event for thiefs and assassins in both: overland & pvp (ic/cyro) content. Steal something, kill someone, maybe make some scouting...

Or make unique solo Undaunted challenges & rewards for those who like to beat dungs alone (of course excluding mechanically not possible to pass dungs).

This is the game. Sure, people have a lot of ideas and sometimes it takes a lot of work to implement them (if it is possible in the 1st place), but overall wouldn't be good if ESO would be developing their content instead of repeating the same formula again and again?

I think we're starting to see some of that with Endeavors.

One of the issues with broadening the event tickets is that ZOS has had issues when they've given out tickets for non-quest or non-collectible activities. More people lose tickets when it's a looting requirement, with the most notable fiasco being the first Elsweyr event. I think that's why most overland PVE and even PVP events have dropped back to "Do a specific quest for tickets." Only Undaunted and Witches Festival still require boss killing/looting for tickets, IIRC.

Now, maybe they could do with implementing a better system to collect tickets, like the Endeavors UI. They could even include a Ticket Counter in the same UI element, so less people lose tickets due to already having a full set. But they haven't yet.

Franchise408

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whoops, draft quote.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Oh, you think event ticket requirements need to be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable? Okay...

So we'll remove the Dark Brotherhood Heists and Sacraments from their event, because I strongly dislike them. It's not fun, engaging, or enjoyable as I look up a guide to figure out that the route I need to get to my Sacrament target requires doing a bit of parkour or won't show up on the map until I'm practically right on top of it.

[snip]

We also have to nix the Undaunted Event, because of genuine complaints on the forums for players who hate grouping with others and can't solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1 object to being forced into group dungeons. Then add in the complaints from players who have bad experiences with fake roles or people rushing through the dungeons. Neither fun, nor enjoyable, nor engaging, and after the PVP events, Undaunted probably has the highest level of salt spilled over it.

So sorry, but I repeat that I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. If the playerbase did get to exclude content from every event based on likes/dislikes, it wouldn't be just the PVP events up on the chopping block.

Ultimately, ZOS decides what content makes the cut for events, not your personal likes and dislikes. Events do not cater to you. Or me, for that matter, or I'd never be "forced" to run another Sacrament or Heist ever again for event tickets.

Not a single one of those things I'd required THREE TIMES over the course of a year for tickets.

Hell, not a single one of those things is required even twice.

[edited to remove quote]

Iriidius

GreasyDave wrote: »

Imagine you were a very good chess player and there was a chess festival and lots of other great chess players plan to show up and play each other. Wouldn't you want to go to that event and test yourself against them? A mature good player would. Except you don't join those guys, you spend your time in the room where the new players tend to go, beating them in two moves and then climbing on top of the table and simulating some kind of sex position with the chess board? Remorselessly, every evening, you and your buddy or buddies.

That's why I don't like IC and I'm a pvper

There are many, many players better than me in Cyro (most of the playerbase probably). I die, like everyone, all the time. There are also idiots in Cyro. But Cyro is a big, big place and you can avoid them.

In IC you can't. Every evening this week I've watched a handful of (and really it is the same 5-6 players every night ) manchildren who know every exploit on the map, every "safe" location, how to jump from buildings to the overlook "safe" entry balconies, where they can stand and not take damage, farm the casual players mercilessly. And they don't seem to feel any kind of discomfort or self-doubt about this because they keep coming back every day.

If you are a great player at any sport - a mature adult would want to play against other highly skilled plaers. Only children or folks with limitations to their self-awareness and social skills would want to showboat and screw beginners.

It's an MMO. It's the internet. What can I expect? nothing more than what we have tbh. In Cyro I can avoid the worst of them. In IC you can't.

This is an interesting Comparision. But you forgot that these good chess players arent playing chess against the beginner 1v1. Instead they come with their friends and for every move the bad player each of the good players move once too.
Another example is a good boxer that instead of fighting other good boxers prefers fighting boxers that recently started or random people on street that doesnt even wear boxing gear. A duell of an experienced boxer against a starter is unfair of course, so you arent duelling them: you are coming with your friends and beating them up in group.
Seems like these good players are winning most of their fights because they outnumber their opponent, not because they are better players.

Togal

You need to prepare for pve right? you need the right gear and setups right? Thats the same in pvp, the difference is you came in unprepared for it. Just run with 50k health and max resistances if you wanna get your dailies done, heck It takes less than 5 minutes to get a daily done for your event ticket in IC and I got it done without any interruption.

VaranisArano

Franchise408 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Whoops, draft quote.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

It's a war zone. It's not supposed to be pleasant flower picking...

It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging.

Not every part of the game is going to be the same level of fun, enjoyable, and engaging for everyone, right?

Because if we're excluding content from events based on what players universally find fun, enjoyable, and engaging, there's going to be a lot on the chopping block.

The parts that are required for events should be. No event requires trials or arenas to get a ticket as the only option that I am aware of.

Oh, you think event ticket requirements need to be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable? Okay...

So we'll remove the Dark Brotherhood Heists and Sacraments from their event, because I strongly dislike them. It's not fun, engaging, or enjoyable as I look up a guide to figure out that the route I need to get to my Sacrament target requires doing a bit of parkour or won't show up on the map until I'm practically right on top of it.

Actually, we need to cancel the DB/TG events entirely, because goody-two-shoes roleplayers can't be required to do evil things in order to get their event tickets - and yes, these are genuine complaints I've heard on the forums.

We also have to nix the Undaunted Event, because of genuine complaints on the forums for players who hate grouping with others and can't solo Normal Fungal Grotto 1 object to being forced into group dungeons. Then add in the complaints from players who have bad experiences with fake roles or people rushing through the dungeons. Neither fun, nor enjoyable, nor engaging, and after the PVP events, Undaunted probably has the highest level of salt spilled over it.

So sorry, but I repeat that I do doubt that ZOS agrees that "It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, enjoyable, and engaging" means that players get to exclude certain content from events based on what they like and dislike. If the playerbase did get to exclude content from every event based on likes/dislikes, it wouldn't be just the PVP events up on the chopping block.

Ultimately, ZOS decides what content makes the cut for events, not your personal likes and dislikes. Events do not cater to you. Or me, for that matter, or I'd never be "forced" to run another Sacrament or Heist ever again for event tickets.

Not a single one of those things I'd required THREE TIMES over the course of a year for tickets.

Hell, not a single one of those things is required even twice.

That is absolutely besides the point of someone saying that content should be universally fun, engaging, and enjoyable to be required for an event. If that is the standard that FlopsyPrince wants to hold, then I repeat that a lot more events have to go.

Also, we definitely had a year with double TG/DB events. There were plenty of complaints. [snip] Not to mention that there's functionally zero difference between "do a delve or world boss daily" in various PVE zones. There's functionally no difference between the Jesters and New Life festivals- it's all "get a short quest, do ridiculous holiday festivities, get an event ricket." The scenery changes, the exact boss you fight changes, but the ticket requirements are no different.


And I'm still not convinced by the "Oh, no, I have to do content I dislike three times!" point. The three times are the two Midyear Mayhems and the event that replaced/combined the old Imperial City Event and Orsinium Event.

Which one do you want to remove?

So no, it's completely valid that ZOS "required" it three times in a year. I believe we agree that this event should have included the PVE IC dungeons as ticket requirements as well like they did in the past, but ZOS didn't do that, and that's their privilege to decide.

We've debated this "no other zone is required 3 times" several times now and I suspect it's not getting more convincing for either of us with repetition.

[edited for baiting]

Darrett

Togal wrote: »

You need to prepare for pve right? you need the right gear and setups right? Thats the same in pvp, the difference is you came in unprepared for it. Just run with 50k health and max resistances if you wanna get your dailies done, heck It takes less than 5 minutes to get a daily done for your event ticket in IC and I got it done without any interruption.

This isn’t a good comparison. Level 1 characters can easily complete the PvE ticket components.

NupidStoob

VaranisArano wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

The main reason PvErs don't like it is not that it's a PvP zone, but because people take advantage of them being ill equipped for PvP.

You never see as many gankers/bombers outside of these events. People literally make toons just to hunt others that are worse equipped/skilled than them. There is no competitiveness. It's just people abusing everything to the max to etch out any little advantage they can get. For many of them that's the only time they can actually have a feeling of success in PvP. It's literally like adults gearing up to beat up children and nobody likes being the child in that scenario.

Gankers and bombers follow the player population. That's true in Cyrodiil outside of events. If you want to gank people, you set up in the PVP choke points or in transit areas between keeps or you stick to the PVP-objective towns because that way you'll see some players. Cheydinhal and Chorrol are mostly dead outside of events. Ypu could could there for hours and hardly see a player- what ganker wants to do that? It's especially true of bombers, because the whole point of bombing is to kill a large group of players. Outside of events, Imperial City has a lot more small scale groups, so there's not much to bomb in the first place.

What do events do?

Bring a lot of players around to different places, PVEers and PVPers alike. Of course you see more gankers and bombers in towns and IC during events - that's where the players are.

I'm sorry, but it's worth considering just how much ESO's PVP and Imperial City in particular incentivizes and rewards stealth-based high risk/high reward gameplay like gankers and bombers before you go around throwing out insults based on playstyles that ZOS allows, intends, and designed for.

Insults? I simply explained what they do, it's you who put the moral compass on it [snip]

As for my comment regarding the feeling of success it's true. There are many people who never PvP except for ganking/bombing during these events.

"High Risk/High Reward", yeah big risk oneshotting some unaware guy with 20k HP and stealthing away again.


ZoS allowing something doesn't make it morally right. Same is true for any law or rule. People judge you for your actions whether you like it or not.

[edited for baiting]

SeaGtGruff

One thing that I think helps me survive more than I would otherwise in IC is mounting up and riding around as much as I can. Did you know that you can usually mount up while you're on the safe platform? Try it. Then when you jump down you'll already be mounted and might be able to withstand getting attacked and dismounted-- as long as you keep moving.

Yesterday I had a rather comical encounter where I'd gotten killed in the Elven Gardens district and had to rez in a district one over because the enemy controlled Elven Gardens. I managed to ride through that district and get to a safe balcony, mounted up on the balcony, jumped down-- and then rode around totally lost and confused because I kept running into dead ends that I'd thought were going to let me through, all the while being attacked by AD, EP, and NPCs. Then I realized I hadn't been on the balcony I thought I'd been on, and was racing along the "outer" circumference wall instead of the "inner" circumference wall. Once I stopped being stupid, I was able to make my way to where I needed to be to burn the ballistas.

The other thing that helps me is coming to terms with the knowledge that I'm going to get killed, probably a lot. I could fight back if I wanted to-- and in past events I did occasionally fight back, and once in a blue moons actually won the fight-- but I'll usually either just stand there and let the other player(s) keep attacking me until I'm dead; or if I was trying to kill something like Daedroth, Flame Atronachs, Legion Zero troops, or the guys with Important Legal Documents, then I'll just keep attacking whatever I need to kill while AD or EP is attacking me. If I'm lucky, I'll make my kill just before I'm killed, then I'll either quickly loot the corpse if I can or go back to loot it after rezzing. In a few cases I'll go into a blocking stance while being attacked, but that only rarely helps so most of the time I don't even bother.

As long as you keep your head and keep a good attitude, you can usually make it through a quest and get it turned in for your ticket-- although you might get killed several times before you're able to complete the quest. Keeping a good attitude is very important to keeping your head, because if you let it upset you then you're going to lose your head. Yes, adrenaline will kick in and your heart and is going to beat like crazy, but that doesn't mean you have to freak out and panic. Just let the "excitement" wash over you (it helps to think of it as excitement rather than terror) and keep plugging away. If you get killed, just go back and try to get a little more of the quest done, as many times as it takes until you can finish it.