Why can't ESO appeal to the general TES fan or the greater gaming public?

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

Adernath

Known problems:

- PvP still laggy in certain situations. What I personally also don't like is the really clunky motion, for example one can be stopped in mid-fight by small obstacles like clutter on the ground etc. And the clunky intertia when traveling by horse.
- PvP today in "small scale" is mostly focused by chasing tower-tanks. The heavy armor meta needs to stop! This could be fixed very easily by introducing small but meaningful disadvantages like increased resource consumption, lower movement speed and a gap-closer overwork. This meta is not enjoyable by many people who prefer plain-area kiting as PvP like sorcs and hunter-type builds. The game is grossly imbalanced between different playstiles (imbalance can never be fully removed, but here it is really grossly imbalanaced), so only those PvPers remain who switch to meele HA or play meele HA as their prefered playstile, leading to ghost-towns overall.
- Way too easy overland content for the average solo gamer. No challenge means no positive feeling if one has success and it is boring if compared to solo games. There should be areas with easy content (near main roads and starting zones for new players) and more challenging content in the wild or in dungeons.
- On the other hand, I hardly see much of the end-game PvE content because I am not going to spend countless hours wiping at bosses late night or planning my real-life day with an ESO-raid on the schedule. In my opinion this content should stay but there is too few medium-difficult content for me for the more causal raider. Also some of the group dungeons take way too long to complete.

If these points can be fixed, ESO would be great. There is already a lot content in the game which is well made, but the above points are crucial in my opinion.

Curious_Death

1)LAGS
2)Unbalanced classes
3)PVP that NO1 explains
4)UNBALANCED PVP
4)trash servers that affect performance
5)boring and FORCED quests
6)TOXIC COMMUNITY FRUSTRATED by 1-6 POINTS
7)DEVS that telling us its ok - when its clearly not
8)ppl on forum that doesnt even reach 10th rank in pvp and tell devs what to do ... and devs listen to them.

edit:
all these points are flavoured with animation cancel that works better when u live closer to servers and ALSO can be EXPLOITED with macro - making u 30% "better" player than player who plays FAIR.

JTD

Why can't ESO appeal to the general TES fan or the greater gaming public? Bookmark

Cause the game is in it's core not a traditional TES game. It's limited and setup very much like a giant but shallow lake. The attraction of (most, correct me if I am wrong) TES games is the deeper engagement and moddability?

Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim (declining) were great adventure where you could play what you wanted and how you wanted (and brick the game sometimes). That felt great.

ESO is more of a theme-park which tries to me an mmorpg but in my view is missing the mmo and rpg part a bit but that is subjective I know that. That combined with the inconsistency in performance and balance swings is i guess part of the problem. The (I don't like the word) super casuals won't notice but the moment you step into the more difficult content and go more in depth (which is common in (endgame) mmorpgs) it's very apparent.

I wish they let go of the 'balancing' and just go big. Who cares about balance, make it fun make it whacky. Make gearsets for classes and or archetypes. Make synergies that are bonkers. Don't homogenize all the classes to be safe.

adriant1978

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Interesting thread to check out

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/nivamy/elder_scrolls_online_creative_director_reflects/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Some of it, though, was completely starting from scratch. Rethinking about how we tell stories. The launch was an excellent example. We were so focused on earth-shattering, world-changing events and quests where you go into an area, and it was populated by monsters, and then you complete the objective. You'd save the city and all that other stuff, and yeah, that's great. But a single-player game doesn't work in a multiplayer game because you separate players from each other, and they can't play together. So that was a big area for us to rethink; how do we tell those types of stories and find new ways to do just that without separating players?

General TES fan here and IMO this is one of the worst things they ever did to the game. It's the reason why Bleakrock will be on fire forever, and why half the towns in Tamriel are still overrun by bandits long after we "drove them off".

One of the original things which attracted me to ESO was the idea that you could have a meaningful impact on the world, that if you defeated the monsters attacking a village then you'd be rewarded with an actual village instead of a mob spawning ground. Now we just have a static themepark world where nothing ever changes, because a few people whined about not being able to group up with folks who were in a different phase. Like anyone needs to group for overland content anyway. I for one would love to see them bring area phasing back.

Adernath

I forgot to mention Imperial City: IC as being pve/pvp is a good concept, but the setting to go there is unattractive:

We all know IC in its current state is a gankfest and personally I don't bother getting ganked during (boss)fights. However, if you wear cloth gear you can forget about farming TV solo in there: The risk of not surving a large burst by some good NB, particular if you do not have full hp all the time, is just not worth it.

And let's be honest: The main reason we go into IC is to farm TV stones. TV lost/gain should be overworked in such a way that (for example)

1) One need to carry a sufficient amount of TV by oneself in order to steal (or remove) it from other players. If player A gets killed by player B and B is only carrying a small amount of TV, then player B should not gain much and A should not lose much TV as well. Otherwise ganking has 0 risk.
2) The problem with TV is further enhanced by the current class imbalance. At the moment tanky builds have a huge advantage than glasscannons because they are built for survivability and can also kill others very effectively.
3) I am wondering if losing TV should be introduced at all and not simply losing the multiplier. Because losing TV is just very frustrating: It equals losing time, which is bad for many people who value time a lot.

VaranisArano

adriant1978 wrote: »

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Interesting thread to check out

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/nivamy/elder_scrolls_online_creative_director_reflects/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Some of it, though, was completely starting from scratch. Rethinking about how we tell stories. The launch was an excellent example. We were so focused on earth-shattering, world-changing events and quests where you go into an area, and it was populated by monsters, and then you complete the objective. You'd save the city and all that other stuff, and yeah, that's great. But a single-player game doesn't work in a multiplayer game because you separate players from each other, and they can't play together. So that was a big area for us to rethink; how do we tell those types of stories and find new ways to do just that without separating players?

General TES fan here and IMO this is one of the worst things they ever did to the game. It's the reason why Bleakrock will be on fire forever, and why half the towns in Tamriel are still overrun by bandits long after we "drove them off".

One of the original things which attracted me to ESO was the idea that you could have a meaningful impact on the world, that if you defeated the monsters attacking a village then you'd be rewarded with an actual village instead of a mob spawning ground. Now we just have a static themepark world where nothing ever changes, because a few people whined about not being able to group up with folks who were in a different phase. Like anyone needs to group for overland content anyway. I for one would love to see them bring area phasing back.

So...because I don't need to group up for overland content, I shouldn't be able to group up with friends who join up to play the game? I shouldn't be able to play with friends who are lower level or haven't done certain quests?

That's one of the main criticisms that led to One Tamriel.

My SO and I started playing ESO, then got another couple into playing too. Except that we were EP and they joined AD. Whoops, can't group up or play together on those characters! So they made EP characters to play with us. Whoops! Instances, quest phases, and level differences mean we couldn't really play together.

We all had to make a whole new set of characters who had to play together just so we could group up and experience the fun of playing together. It wasn't until after One Tamriel that our "mains" could finally meet up and we got to play and roleplay together on our favorite characters.


It may not be your cup of tea, but ZOS is entirely correct to note that separating players creates problems in an MMO.

Tandor

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

Because it's a MMO. Other genre audiences overlap a bit but are definitely not same.

Yeah I don't understand why people don't get this.

For the deep RPG character leveling experience you have your single player TES games (maybe not deep but you get the idea)

For people that enjoy grouping and talking to others we have this. The world overlaps, and there are features that will, but they can't expect ZOS to just make Skyrim Multi player.

I agree, it's strange that some TES players don't really get that ESO is a hybrid RPG/MMO and not simply "Skyrim with friends", whatever that means. I think a lot of the TES players' criticisms of ESO come from people whose entire playing of TES began and finished with Skyrim. Most people who have played every TES title since Arena in 1994 have a balanced view of the series, often preferring one of the earlier games to Skyrim, and see ESO as an entirely separate and different game within the TES family, no more and no less than that.

These sorts of discussions always remind me of my favourite forum posts, they're the ones that say something along the lines of "I've sunk over 12,000 hours into Skyrim and the thing I hate most about ESO is the grind"!

Skyrim with Friends

As in it has the same engine & gameplay as Skyrim (without Shouts) but you can play with others. Not as many people in the same instance as we would see in an MMO but you can still play with people. Sure, it would probably have a different skill system but not the class system we have right now. I think you get the idea.

I've also seen TES veterans say they would have preferred that approach - also saying "Morrowind/Oblivion with Friends"

We cannot go back at this point but this is what people mean when they say "Skyrim with friends"

Thanks, to be honest that's what I assume people meant - i.e. more like a LAN version of Skyrim, not really a MMORPG game derived from TES.

adriant1978

VaranisArano wrote: »

So...because I don't need to group up for overland content, I shouldn't be able to group up with friends who join up to play the game? I shouldn't be able to play with friends who are lower level or haven't done certain quests?

That's one of the main criticisms that led to One Tamriel.

My SO and I started playing ESO, then got another couple into playing too. Except that we were EP and they joined AD. Whoops, can't group up or play together on those characters! So they made EP characters to play with us. Whoops! Instances, quest phases, and level differences mean we couldn't really play together.

We all had to make a whole new set of characters who had to play together just so we could group up and experience the fun of playing together. It wasn't until after One Tamriel that our "mains" could finally meet up and we got to play and roleplay together on our favorite characters.

It may not be your cup of tea, but ZOS is entirely correct to note that separating players creates problems in an MMO.

One Tamriel (as in the removal of faction-locked & level-locked zones) was and is a great thing, but I do think that when it comes to phasing ZOS were too quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of look for ways to make the system work better.

A simple compromise solution could have been to set the phase according to the group leader's quest progress. That would have allowed newbies to invite veterans along on their quests without completely gutting one of the game's nicer immersion features.

I also started playing ESO along with my SO, in case you think I'm some sort of militant soloist who just wants to play Skyrim II, but it really does make me feel sad when I wander back through some of the base game zones and see the remnants of what could have been compared to now where everything in the overland is static and unchanging.

Iccotak

Tandor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

rpa wrote: »

Because it's a MMO. Other genre audiences overlap a bit but are definitely not same.

Yeah I don't understand why people don't get this.

For the deep RPG character leveling experience you have your single player TES games (maybe not deep but you get the idea)

For people that enjoy grouping and talking to others we have this. The world overlaps, and there are features that will, but they can't expect ZOS to just make Skyrim Multi player.

I agree, it's strange that some TES players don't really get that ESO is a hybrid RPG/MMO and not simply "Skyrim with friends", whatever that means. I think a lot of the TES players' criticisms of ESO come from people whose entire playing of TES began and finished with Skyrim. Most people who have played every TES title since Arena in 1994 have a balanced view of the series, often preferring one of the earlier games to Skyrim, and see ESO as an entirely separate and different game within the TES family, no more and no less than that.

These sorts of discussions always remind me of my favourite forum posts, they're the ones that say something along the lines of "I've sunk over 12,000 hours into Skyrim and the thing I hate most about ESO is the grind"!

Skyrim with Friends

As in it has the same engine & gameplay as Skyrim (without Shouts) but you can play with others. Not as many people in the same instance as we would see in an MMO but you can still play with people. Sure, it would probably have a different skill system but not the class system we have right now. I think you get the idea.

I've also seen TES veterans say they would have preferred that approach - also saying "Morrowind/Oblivion with Friends"

We cannot go back at this point but this is what people mean when they say "Skyrim with friends"

Thanks, to be honest that's what I assume people meant - i.e. more like a LAN version of Skyrim, not really a MMORPG game derived from TES.

Yeah, the harsh truth at launch that many realized is that the average TES fan (or the vocal ones at least) had no interest in a game that was simply an MMORPG that took place in TES.

They wanted the classic TES experience but with friends. Can't say I blame 'em

---

Imagine if that is how the game was designed? Imagine the Sandbox

Imagine when we got around to the Elsweyr expansion with Dragons that acted like Dragons from Skyrim - with more abilities but weren't as stagnant as ESO dragons, who could actually randomly spawn and attack towns??

Imagine if they did that for Dark Anchors...

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

What I mean is that I don't hear anyone leave because things are too hard Post-OT, I hear that things are too easy Post-OT.

As to your point though: Before One Tamriel was also a very different time - most complaints I heard were about loot pools being bad, leveling was Very slow, veteran ranks were broken, etc. also Craglorn was very specifically designed for groups. This is Not an apt comparison. - but yes things weren't good back then.

However, this is comparing two extremes of a pendulum swing. Went too far in one direction but now it has gone too far in the other direction.

Like I've said in the past; being too hard can make something not fun - but the same is true if it is made too easy.

And people aren't asking that others to be Forced to play in their difficulty preference - they're asking for the option to opt into a difficulty that makes the story more fun for them. Leaving others to play the story how they want.

---

these days almost every time I introduce somebody to ESO I hear the same thing about questing being too easy / unengaging, or I'll hear from a guild mate who doesn't even bother questing anymore.

Tandor

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

One Tamriel had many advantages. One often understated one is that people who complain that overland content is too easy for fully geared alts with loads of CPs and a full knowledge of the game forget that prior to One Tamriel if you dared to complete new DLC content as soon as it was launched while still levelling up your main character you would find on returning to the base game that you had completely out-levelled the content you were doing previously, making it trivial. One Tamriel removed any disadvantage in taking on new content "out of turn". That alone has transformed the game for me.

Iccotak

Tandor wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

One Tamriel had many advantages. One often understated one is that people who complain that overland content is too easy for fully geared alts with loads of CPs and a full knowledge of the game forget that prior to One Tamriel if you dared to complete new DLC content as soon as it was launched while still levelling up your main character you would find on returning to the base game that you had completely out-levelled the content you were doing previously, making it trivial. One Tamriel removed any disadvantage in taking on new content "out of turn". That alone has transformed the game for me.

the first part is a major misconception.

People who have voiced this complaints will often have CP turned off and even wear lesser gear - and find that the problem is the gameplay and enemies are very incompetent.

That's part of what a classic difficulty setting does - it made enemies have more health, resistances, damage output in order to make up for the players knowledge and skill of the mechanics.

OT is great for sure but it has a big flaw which is that the only difficulty it has is practically novice. It's centered around level 10 players with no game knowledge and mismatched gear.

Once you have a basic understanding of the mechanics it became a cakewalk - even with no help from alts. Nothing is much of a threat and you are never really at risk.

and Main Story Bosses are very stripped down - bare minimum - encounters. Which made for a disappointing and anti climatic conclusion to the many Storylines

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

What I mean is that I don't hear anyone leave because things are too hard Post-OT, I hear that things are too easy Post-OT.

As to your point though: Before One Tamriel was also a very different time - most complaints I heard were about loot pools being bad, leveling was Very slow, veteran ranks were broken, etc. also Craglorn was very specifically designed for groups. This is Not an apt comparison. - but yes things weren't good back then.

However, this is comparing two extremes of a pendulum swing. Went too far in one direction but now it has gone too far in the other direction.

Like I've said in the past; being too hard can make something not fun - but the same is true if it is made too easy.

And people aren't asking that others to be Forced to play in their difficulty preference - they're asking for the option to opt into a difficulty that makes the story more fun for them. Leaving others to play the story how they want.

---

these days almost every time I introduce somebody to ESO I hear the same thing about questing being too easy / unengaging, or I'll hear from a guild mate who doesn't even bother questing anymore.

My experience is the opposite of yours. I haven't heard anyone in game complain that it's too easy post One Tamriel either. This isn't something that players run around discussing while playing. The conversations I hear are players trolling zone chat, friends asking what I'm up to today, guild chat talking about good drops people have gotten and guild events and forming dungeon groups.

I don't deny that friends you brought to ESO and some of your guild mates find the game too easy, but that is not something I've ever seen discussed in game for as long as I've played.

Tandor

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

One Tamriel had many advantages. One often understated one is that people who complain that overland content is too easy for fully geared alts with loads of CPs and a full knowledge of the game forget that prior to One Tamriel if you dared to complete new DLC content as soon as it was launched while still levelling up your main character you would find on returning to the base game that you had completely out-levelled the content you were doing previously, making it trivial. One Tamriel removed any disadvantage in taking on new content "out of turn". That alone has transformed the game for me.

the first part is a major misconception.

People who have voiced this complaints will often have CP turned off and even wear lesser gear - and find that the problem is the gameplay and enemies are very incompetent.

That's part of what a classic difficulty setting does - it made enemies have more health, resistances, damage output in order to make up for the players knowledge and skill of the mechanics.

OT is great for sure but it has a big flaw which is that the only difficulty it has is practically novice. It's centered around level 10 players with no game knowledge and mismatched gear.

Once you have a basic understanding of the mechanics it became a cakewalk - even with no help from alts. Nothing is much of a threat and you are never really at risk.

and Main Story Bosses are very stripped down - bare minimum - encounters. Which made for a disappointing and anti climatic conclusion to the many Storylines

With respect, that is where the misconception lies, not in my point. You are assessing it from the point of view of an experienced player with full knowledge of the mechanics, rather than from the point of view of the average player running overland content. Most such complaints come from players who claim to routinely solo world bosses - most players cannot, and the overland content is tailored for them as it should be, while veteran content like dungeons and trials is tailored for those who can treat overland content as a cakewalk.

As for main storyline encounters, they should never be locked behind elite combat abilities, one of my absolute hates in computer games of any kind is when I sail through the entire game until the final encounter when I get insta-wiped because I don't have the reflexes and dexterity of a player 50 years younger than me, or the desire to spend ages watching videos on You Tube to learn second by second how to finish a game I had no trouble in playing up to that point. The main storyline is first and foremost about the story and should be capable of being completed by anyone who has got to that stage.

Where I am much more sympathetic to the case for optional veteran challenge settings in overland content is in DLC/Chapter releases where I can appreciate that elite players want to be able to experience the new content with a degree of challenge. That is, however, a different case to the one whereby people want veteran gear dropping on their low-level alts from mobs in Khenarthi's Roost.

pklemming

Games were changed to 'Press button, get loot' some years back. There are few 'challenging' games anymore, like the early days of EQ. We just have repeated blandness and regurgitated ideas with new skins. Graphics seem to top list of importance, regardless of whether the game is fun or innovative.

If we consider how long MMOs have been around, the NPC AI is abysmal( not just in this, in most games). You don't feel like you are involved in a world, just running up to another cardboard cutout npc, to skip through the text as fast as possible, so you can get given your next small reward.

Folkb

Be careful what you ask for. You could have had an ESO version of fallout 76 and although I did put hundreds of hrs in 76, that game has a lot more game breaking issues.

PrimeSeptim

I think it's because compared to the solo Elder Scrolls games, everything is just very
shallow and soulless. But that's the same for any MMO. Quantity over quality. The developers
main focus being, 'how much money can we make?'...

It's also missing TES's traditional sandbox/dynamic world (which is really one of the biggest
things that defines ES games and what makes them such a pleasure to play, especially when
you add mods into the equation). ESO is just 100% scripted. There's no forgetting that you're
playing a video game. NPCs just stand there in the same spot or walk the same path forever
- they have no real routine.

The world is not a 'living, breathing world'. There are no NPC ragdoll or object physics and combat
feels like your swinging around cardboard cutouts. It's just missing a lot of stuff that helps make
the world feel more believable and immersive. It's missing that Elder Scrolls magic! The vast majority
simply wanted Skyrim with coop, not a massively shallow, paper thin world with boring and uninspired
quests, excessive micromanaging, grind, repetitiveness, inconsiderate jerks and gatekeepers, or a
cash shop with microtransactions.

Overall, things weren't so bad when the game first released, in my opinion. Many of these issue
were still present but somehow they were much easier to overlook. Nowadays, it's just messy
(e.g. lore and the Crown store)and well, I have to be careful what I say regarding our overlords
but they too have changed.

The only good thing about ESO I think is that you can explore almost the entirety of Tamriel
and enjoy the soundtrack while doing so - still not as good as the other TES games mind you
but eh, it's quite good in its own way. But for the most part, ESO is just another theme park,
skinner box MMO and we're riding the TES rollercoaster. Me, for how much longer, I know not.

Graygirl

Just a comment from a noob, here.

I've been a TES player since Morrowind, and I'm having fun here on ESO, with my monthly subscription and access to most of the game. That said, it's my first MMO, so I have nothing to compare it to.

I do find that the Crown Store prices are abusive, but I'm also not used to games being monetized since this is my first MMO. It's probably the norm.

pklemming

That is another pet peeve. We used to have:

Just buy the game, then;

buy the game, and the expansions;

don't buy the game, but you have this option of micro transactions;

buy the game, buy the expansions and have a monthly fee.

Now we have: buy the game, buy the expansion, have a monthly fee, and here are some things you can buy extra too.

SilverBride

pklemming wrote: »

That is another pet peeve. We used to have:

Just buy the game, then;

buy the game, and the expansions;

don't buy the game, but you have this option of micro transactions;

buy the game, buy the expansions and have a monthly fee.

Now we have: buy the game, buy the expansion, have a monthly fee, and here are some things you can buy extra too.

I look at it this way. When I'm on vacation and take a trip, first I pay for airline tickets. Then I book a room and pay for lodging. Then I pay for experiences, such as tours of the area. Then there are meals, and souvenirs, etc..

Well I consider ESO my vacation from the world. I expect there will be added costs here and there, but they are all optional depending on how much of an experience I am looking for.

ESO is entertainment for us, but for ZoS it's a business that needs a steady revenue to remain afloat.

adriant1978

SilverBride wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

That is another pet peeve. We used to have:

Just buy the game, then;

buy the game, and the expansions;

don't buy the game, but you have this option of micro transactions;

buy the game, buy the expansions and have a monthly fee.

Now we have: buy the game, buy the expansion, have a monthly fee, and here are some things you can buy extra too.

I look at it this way. When I'm on vacation and take a trip, first I pay for airline tickets. Then I book a room and pay for lodging. Then I pay for experiences, such as tours of the area. Then there are meals, and souvenirs, etc..

Well I consider ESO my vacation from the world. I expect there will be added costs here and there, but they are all optional depending on how much of an experience I am looking for.

ESO is entertainment for us, but for ZoS it's a business that needs a steady revenue to remain afloat.

The way they weaselled out of their "ESO+ members get all the DLC" pledge by deciding that a "Chapter" was somehow not "DLC" still leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but it is what it is and yes the game has to make money. I guess if they hadn't done that we might be seeing even more aggressive microtransaction and gambling stuff.

Iccotak

Tandor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

One Tamriel had many advantages. One often understated one is that people who complain that overland content is too easy for fully geared alts with loads of CPs and a full knowledge of the game forget that prior to One Tamriel if you dared to complete new DLC content as soon as it was launched while still levelling up your main character you would find on returning to the base game that you had completely out-levelled the content you were doing previously, making it trivial. One Tamriel removed any disadvantage in taking on new content "out of turn". That alone has transformed the game for me.

the first part is a major misconception.

People who have voiced this complaints will often have CP turned off and even wear lesser gear - and find that the problem is the gameplay and enemies are very incompetent.

That's part of what a classic difficulty setting does - it made enemies have more health, resistances, damage output in order to make up for the players knowledge and skill of the mechanics.

OT is great for sure but it has a big flaw which is that the only difficulty it has is practically novice. It's centered around level 10 players with no game knowledge and mismatched gear.

Once you have a basic understanding of the mechanics it became a cakewalk - even with no help from alts. Nothing is much of a threat and you are never really at risk.

and Main Story Bosses are very stripped down - bare minimum - encounters. Which made for a disappointing and anti climatic conclusion to the many Storylines

With respect, that is where the misconception lies, not in my point. You are assessing it from the point of view of an experienced player with full knowledge of the mechanics, rather than from the point of view of the average player running overland content. Most such complaints come from players who claim to routinely solo world bosses - most players cannot, and the overland content is tailored for them as it should be, while veteran content like dungeons and trials is tailored for those who can treat overland content as a cakewalk.

As for main storyline encounters, they should never be locked behind elite combat abilities, one of my absolute hates in computer games of any kind is when I sail through the entire game until the final encounter when I get insta-wiped because I don't have the reflexes and dexterity of a player 50 years younger than me, or the desire to spend ages watching videos on You Tube to learn second by second how to finish a game I had no trouble in playing up to that point. The main storyline is first and foremost about the story and should be capable of being completed by anyone who has got to that stage.

Where I am much more sympathetic to the case for optional veteran challenge settings in overland content is in DLC/Chapter releases where I can appreciate that elite players want to be able to experience the new content with a degree of challenge. That is, however, a different case to the one whereby people want veteran gear dropping on their low-level alts from mobs in Khenarthi's Roost.

1. This has been said before - but this complaint is not exclusive to "Elite Players" it was the top critique from all of my friends I introduced to the game who did not stick around very long - and many average casual and even New players have voiced this criticism.
This is not coming from people who just solo World Bosses, Dolmens, and Dungeons. This is not an Elitist issue - it never was.

2. No one is saying to lock the story behind elite combat skills - people have asked for an optional difficulty setting for Story Bosses.
As they are right now Story bosses are not mechanically engaging for anyone who isn't a beginner (and even then it's debatable) so people have asked for the option to have a fight more on par with their skill level. Because that makes the story more fun for them.

3. I don't know what you mean by veteran gear drops exactly. Like a color upgrade? Because I have not seen anyone argue for dungeons sets to drop in overland. Personally I don't care about rewards and don't like getting into that discussion because it always leads to purity test strawman arguments - I just want a better gameplay experience for overland and story content that I can look forward to and enjoy.

Tandor

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

We obviously have had very different experiences. I left because it was too hard and I didn't return until One Tamriel. Outside these forums I have never heard a single person say the game is too easy, but I know many who left when I did because it was too difficult and because of Craglorn's forced grouping. One Tamriel is what revived this game and kept it alive.

One Tamriel had many advantages. One often understated one is that people who complain that overland content is too easy for fully geared alts with loads of CPs and a full knowledge of the game forget that prior to One Tamriel if you dared to complete new DLC content as soon as it was launched while still levelling up your main character you would find on returning to the base game that you had completely out-levelled the content you were doing previously, making it trivial. One Tamriel removed any disadvantage in taking on new content "out of turn". That alone has transformed the game for me.

the first part is a major misconception.

People who have voiced this complaints will often have CP turned off and even wear lesser gear - and find that the problem is the gameplay and enemies are very incompetent.

That's part of what a classic difficulty setting does - it made enemies have more health, resistances, damage output in order to make up for the players knowledge and skill of the mechanics.

OT is great for sure but it has a big flaw which is that the only difficulty it has is practically novice. It's centered around level 10 players with no game knowledge and mismatched gear.

Once you have a basic understanding of the mechanics it became a cakewalk - even with no help from alts. Nothing is much of a threat and you are never really at risk.

and Main Story Bosses are very stripped down - bare minimum - encounters. Which made for a disappointing and anti climatic conclusion to the many Storylines

With respect, that is where the misconception lies, not in my point. You are assessing it from the point of view of an experienced player with full knowledge of the mechanics, rather than from the point of view of the average player running overland content. Most such complaints come from players who claim to routinely solo world bosses - most players cannot, and the overland content is tailored for them as it should be, while veteran content like dungeons and trials is tailored for those who can treat overland content as a cakewalk.

As for main storyline encounters, they should never be locked behind elite combat abilities, one of my absolute hates in computer games of any kind is when I sail through the entire game until the final encounter when I get insta-wiped because I don't have the reflexes and dexterity of a player 50 years younger than me, or the desire to spend ages watching videos on You Tube to learn second by second how to finish a game I had no trouble in playing up to that point. The main storyline is first and foremost about the story and should be capable of being completed by anyone who has got to that stage.

Where I am much more sympathetic to the case for optional veteran challenge settings in overland content is in DLC/Chapter releases where I can appreciate that elite players want to be able to experience the new content with a degree of challenge. That is, however, a different case to the one whereby people want veteran gear dropping on their low-level alts from mobs in Khenarthi's Roost.

1. This has been said before - but this complaint is not exclusive to "Elite Players" it was the top critique from all of my friends I introduced to the game who did not stick around very long - and many average casual and even New players have voiced this criticism.
This is not coming from people who just solo World Bosses, Dolmens, and Dungeons. This is not an Elitist issue - it never was.

2. No one is saying to lock the story behind elite combat skills - people have asked for an optional difficulty setting for Story Bosses.
As they are right now Story bosses are not mechanically engaging for anyone who isn't a beginner (and even then it's debatable) so people have asked for the option to have a fight more on par with their skill level. Because that makes the story more fun for them.

3. I don't know what you mean by veteran gear drops exactly. Like a color upgrade? Because I have not seen anyone argue for dungeons sets to drop in overland. Personally I don't care about rewards and don't like getting into that discussion because it always leads to purity test strawman arguments - I just want a better gameplay experience for overland and story content that I can look forward to and enjoy.

Whenever players have asked for a veteran option in overland content because they want a challenge, and I've said "that's fine if you only want the challenge and aren't really just after a veteran reward" some of them have always answered that of course they're not going to opt for a higher difficulty level if they don't get a higher level reward too. It always separates those like you who are just looking for challenging gameplay and those for whom the challenging gameplay is really just a means to an end, namely top gear.

Faulgor

Sorbin wrote: »

Why spend the time creating balanced, engaging content when the same boring, copy and paste overland zones sell every year? Why bother writing a unique story or fleshing out the lore in meaningful ways when you can sell "Vestige teams up with intrepid young galpal who thwarts obviously evil traitor in service to dragon/Daedric prince/generic fantasy demigod on the way to realizing her true destiny" three years in a row? Why fix your PvP when you can simply take advantage of the convenient fact that there's almost no competition on the market in the genre (though this is changing)?

That's the most succinct summary of last years' content I've read so far (ever since they started the year-long-story thing).

I think many of ESO's drawbacks could be overlooked if it had a reputation for outstanding stories. Several other games do. It would seem a relatively simple area to improve as it requires little technical changes (although, in my opinion, NPC interactions should be improved vastly beyond just flipping through dialogue boxes), but if anything, ESO's stories have stagnated or even gotten worse.

Considering half of all content updates per year are sold on the story, that's a big blunder.

FlopsyPrince

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

People have said the game is doomed since closed beta before launch, and every month since launch.
"Game is dying". Well, it's still here and yes, it's lore is canon.
My two drakes. Huzzah!

The same was what people said about World of Warcraft.

It took a few years, but they are finally facing their own doom. Don't think ESO is immune. In fact, it would probably be closed down even quicker than WoW would....

FlopsyPrince

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

You would lose far more people if you made the game hard enough to please most of these people. I don't want to get killed multiple times running from one city to another, sorry to all of you. Which would lose more money could be a question, but player base size matters too. Few of those who want harder overland content would keep running overland for a long time, after they got their fill of that hard content.

SilverBride wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

That is another pet peeve. We used to have:

Just buy the game, then;

buy the game, and the expansions;

don't buy the game, but you have this option of micro transactions;

buy the game, buy the expansions and have a monthly fee.

Now we have: buy the game, buy the expansion, have a monthly fee, and here are some things you can buy extra too.

I look at it this way. When I'm on vacation and take a trip, first I pay for airline tickets. Then I book a room and pay for lodging. Then I pay for experiences, such as tours of the area. Then there are meals, and souvenirs, etc..

Well I consider ESO my vacation from the world. I expect there will be added costs here and there, but they are all optional depending on how much of an experience I am looking for.

ESO is entertainment for us, but for ZoS it's a business that needs a steady revenue to remain afloat.

True, but they really need to think through how to make things work for as many as possible to keep the money coming in. Whales may pay more, but they won't continue to play if lots of casuals/cheap players leave.

A comprehensive strategy is vitally important for them, but I doubt they really think that way, especially since few companies do.

Tandor

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

People have said the game is doomed since closed beta before launch, and every month since launch.
"Game is dying". Well, it's still here and yes, it's lore is canon.
My two drakes. Huzzah!

The same was what people said about World of Warcraft.

It took a few years, but they are finally facing their own doom. Don't think ESO is immune. In fact, it would probably be closed down even quicker than WoW would....

I see what you did there! Whether you see it too, I'm not too sure...

VaranisArano

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO is not for everyone. No game is. But it works for a lot of players. Changing a working formula would not be a good business move.

adding a difficulty option instance would hardly "Change a Working Formula" or make it a totally different game - again it's really not that radical of a concept.

EDIT: I would also say it's a good business move to ensure long term engagement of its players - and I hear way more stories about people leaving because the overland/story is too easy - I hardly hear anyone leaving because something was "too hard".

You would lose far more people if you made the game hard enough to please most of these people. I don't want to get killed multiple times running from one city to another, sorry to all of you. Which would lose more money could be a question, but player base size matters too. Few of those who want harder overland content would keep running overland for a long time, after they got their fill of that hard content.

I'm not sure how you think an option would lose players, but okay. You don't want it; you don't have to use it.

And considering that some of the current complaints are "I don't run the new Chapters because it's too easy", I find it hard to believe that the players asking for a veteran option who decide not to use it.

One of the reasons my SO quit ESO was that we couldn't quest together anymore with our main characters. We'd hit the point where if we were together, we just slaughtered enemies and were competing for targets. There was no challenge. We'd definitely use the Veteran option if it were available.