Why can't ESO appeal to the general TES fan or the greater gaming public?

tonyblack

I came to eso after skyrim hoping for engaging solo content but stayed for pvp, dungeons and trials. Overland in this game offers no challenge, it’s not engaging or rewarding and it’s not even repetitive for most parts. Skyrim has difficulty slider but eso default on novice and to have some solo challenge in this game you can do 2 arenas or solo content intended for groups. I just can’t enjoy the story if everything pose no threat and balanced around new lvl 10 players with mismatched gear and wrong skills. Skyrim and fallout 4 on highest difficulty was really fun (as long you don’t abuse console commands), required at least some thinking and i could actually immerse myself to the quests. In eso i just read dialog, go to point a, oneshot any enemy on the way, return to read more dialog, go to point b, instakill more mobs and boss, return to npc and claim tiny amount of gold and useless piece of gear.

SydneyGrey

The type of person who loved Skyrim is also the type of person who loved Oblivion and Morrowind, though, as well. We're all the same person. I loved one just as much as the others.

Faulgor

ESO seems to be the most successful MMO nobody talks about.

But when they do, it's usually not favorably. #1 reason I read again and again why people don't play is that the combat looks like crap. All our staunch defenders of animation canceling and fAsT-pAcEd CoMbAt might not be bothered by it, but the general audience is.

colossalvoids

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO seems to be the most successful MMO nobody talks about.

But when they do, it's usually not favorably. #1 reason I read again and again why people don't play is that the combat looks like crap. All our staunch defenders of animation canceling and fAsT-pAcEd CoMbAt might not be bothered by it, but the general audience is.

Funny enough the only place I hear about "how bad the combat is" are eso forums from same bunch of people over and over again.

Destai

colossalvoids wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Also crown store and eso+ making people to pass this game, those practices aren't even remotely fair for tes sp player, look at skyrim's "content store" even, it's a disaster.

crown store is tame as *** here. you barely need anything except some dlcs. all the other mmos have so much worse crown store and subbing here actually gives you a lot more benefit and even enough currency that you can spend on anything.

It is when compared to other MMOs, but for single player peeps it's just abhorrence and keeping them away as you can still buy triple a games for a horse / dlc price.

I think it's high even compared to other MMOs. Just looking at GW2's store - which they monetize things a bit more at cheaper prices - a bank tab upgrade there goes <$10 USD. An upgrade in ESO is $15, unless on-sale at a moment's notice. $40 skins is an absurd price. The houses are what gets me - $100+. It turns people off knowing they can't earn things in-game in a reasonable time-frame. Or with the constant FOMO offerings, missing it entirely. And by the way, GW2 offers gold-to-currency conversions in game, something ESO won't do.

Ippokrates

Tandor wrote: »

"Why can't ESO appeal to the general TES fan or the greater gaming public? "

It already does.

That's why it's been so successful for 7 years, and continues to be so.

Yeah, with 15 milion users it got a general TES fanbase. Sure, Skyrim got 30 mln but they are issuing the same game from almost a decade and plenty of people bought game mainly for modes xd

Plus, as ZOS admitted some time ago, ESO is not MMO per se but rather RPG. And I agree with that - for someone who wants experience Tamriel, ESO is great. But MMO aspects (like totally lagging pvp or limitations for housing - which could be really good sandbox part of the game or poorly designed RNG making any cooperation pointless and toxic) are extremely weak.

So... I would said more, cause we living in amazing times and we can see how eternal nr 1 MMO is currently losing its position due to constantly disrespecful actions towards fanbase BUT because yesterday I have received a warning for use of commonly used abbreviation for potions (i think so, cause as usually reasons were hide behind typical corporation terms of service blah blah ^^) I would say no more. You know, not sure how zos hermeneutics might interpret the message - which is another example why ESO is not good at one thing that MMO should aspire to: building & maintaining community.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Lack of Advertising.

Skyrim, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft all had/have significant presences in advertisements and media. ESO has ZILCH.

More aptly, Bethesda and Zenimax are TERRIBLE at marketing. They eschew communicating not only with their own player base but also with engaging in active dialogue with gaming publications. That kind of thing may have been fine a decade ago but in today’s world where Steam, Microsoft, and Sony offer so many notable free/cheap game experiences ESO and other Zenimax games are overshadowed and lost.

You know what got a lot of casual people into Skyrim? The commercials with the Skyrim Main Theme. Much like Gears of War “Mad World” it captivated those who saw and made them want it. ESO has nothing close to a single definable social or media moment after seven years that can draw players to and corral them around the game.

Well, ZoS took out a Super Bowl Ad for Morrowinds release. I've never seen WoW have a Super Bowl commercial.
What got people into Skyrim was it was just a great game. Period.
(I prefer TES3 myself, but Skyrim was ok).
Just my two drakes.
Huzzah!

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Well, when ESO first came out I found it to be rather unappealing I must say; graphically and the physics.
Over time I became hooked, but that first impression almost had me out.

The game was also very buggy in the beginning and also had a fair few cheaters.

It's our producer's first game after all and it's an online game, making it a rather difficult product to maintain and sell.
I think they've given it all they've got and unfortunately I don't think we are a big enough community for them to take a step back and say: 'Ok, we are going to overhaul all the issues in this game and give you a working and stable product'

I agree with OP; They are certainly trying to get those last fans in, but they also might get frustrated with the game too, so..double edged sword when you think about future projects.

To resume: Marketing is a bit ambiguous here and the game is struggling to find an identity..some say it's an MMO (and there are obvious traits that validate this), whilst others and the producer say it's an Online RPG. They have to choose one and rework in this direction, risky sure, but it would probably pay off to get those last fans they desire.

PS: I'm still a firm believer in that 'less is more' - Quality over quantity.

Kendaric

SilverBride wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

...I like ESO for what it is but I'd never consider it to be a real TES game...

It's not a real TES game... it's based on TES games.

I don't think it would be possible to turn a single player game into a MMO without a lot of restructuring. I admit the only TES game I played before was Skyrim because I just prefer the social aspects of multiplayer games. But I loved Skyrim and was very happy to enter that world with others. I didn't expect it to play the same.

I think ESO has been very successful since One Tamriel and I love the flexibility it provides. If I want to fight mobs, I fight mobs. If I want to decorate my houses, I decorate. If I want to craft, I craft. There is something for all my moods and likes.

It would feel a lot more like a TES game, if classes were implemented differently. That is actually my main gripe with ESO. The class system they have chosen is simply too rigid and limited.

Mind you, I don't expect ESO to play the same as TES 1-5 (or Battlespire) but I think it would have been possible to get closer to the TES feel. Changing how classes and magic work would have been a step in the right direction, for example.
I'm fine with the variety of activities provided and One Tamriel was definitely a step in the right direction, but it's just hard to look at ESO and realizing what could have been.

Wolfenbelle

Alucardo wrote: »

As it stands, the casual crowd is their biggest income, and they aren't going to sabotage that by making the game hard [snip]

Why is it necessary to insult people who play more casually than you do? There are many reasons why some people invest less time and effort in a game -- any game. None of those reasons have anything to do with "brain activity."

Good for people who do enjoy putting a lot of time and effort into a game, but doing so does not make them special in any way. It is a game, after all. You know...something people usually do for fun, entertainment, and maybe a bit of escape from real life for awhile. Maybe there's more "brain activity" in keeping a game in perspective.

[edited to remove quote]

Destai

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Well, when ESO first came out I found it to be rather unappealing I must say; graphically and the physics.
Over time I became hooked, but that first impression almost had me out.

The game was also very buggy in the beginning and also had a fair few cheaters.

It's our producer's first game after all and it's an online game, making it a rather difficult product to maintain and sell.
I think they've given it all they've got and unfortunately I don't think we are a big enough community for them to take a step back and say: 'Ok, we are going to overhaul all the issues in this game and give you a working and stable product'

I agree with OP; They are certainly trying to get those last fans in, but they also might get frustrated with the game too, so..double edged sword when you think about future projects.

To resume: Marketing is a bit ambiguous here and the game is struggling to find an identity..some say it's an MMO (and there are obvious traits that validate this), whilst others and the producer say it's an Online RPG. They have to choose one and rework in this direction, risky sure, but it would probably pay off to get those last fans they desire.

PS: I'm still a firm believer in that 'less is more' - Quality over quantity.

This game's beginning was super rocky because of their original product direction they were amply advised against. I remember being in an AMA with ZOS leadership during beta IIRC and it was staggering how beholden they were to that design. A lot of people told them, and expected, this to be to Skyrim online.

Thankfully, they course corrected and gave us One Tamriel.

And yes, the initial impressions are a bit rough. People've been hammering about the new player experience for years, and for a studio who's always trying to get new players, I don't think they've given as much attention to it as they should. We did get the new tutorial, but I don't feel like it really address the core barriers to getting into the game.

People have to wait an awfully long time to get a sense of a character or build. They then have to wait 60 days before their horse runs at full speed. They then have to juggle all the junk, treasure, crafting materials, sets, surveys, maps, and gods know what else the moment they start the game. It's a lot.

There's a lot of MMO trappings in this game, so I found it disingenuous for them to label it anything but. Millions of people play it online together. There's dungeons and trials, there's guilds. Seems like an MMO to me. Any other label just feels like unnecessary wordplay to me. Meanwhile, explain why two dungeons are $30 to your average player when most other MMOs put them in the yearly expansion. (Sidebar, I love the yearly packages they've introduced to the store)

And like you said, the performance issues are a hinderance to an otherwise deeply rewarding game. Someone gets into the game, sees it through the rocky start, and then deals with frequent performance issues. The whole PS5 situation right now is a great example. A new console just came out and people wanted to see Tamriel but are instead with game-breaking issues. Many people who got the PS5 version have MAJOR issues with it - they can't zone without crashes. I'm one of them. I'm playing this on the PS4 version until that's sorted out. On my PS5.

I'll stay because I love the game, but I simply can't sell any gaming friend on this. It's a shame really. I've tried but for so many it's a hard pass.

Tornaad

When it comes to marketing a product there is a counterintuitive truth you have to face. The broader audience you target, the fewer people you can attract, while the narrower audience you target, the more people you can target.

Let me explain this concept this way,
The more people you try to target with your product, the more products and companies you are competing against, and when it comes to competition there are cases where if you go too broad, your competition might include products and services not even in your industry.

So there is a powerful and smart reason to keep ESO narrow in its target market.

hcbigdogdoghc

Interesting thread to check out

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/nivamy/elder_scrolls_online_creative_director_reflects/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

SeaGtGruff

VaranisArano wrote: »

Also, not gonna lie, I don't understand the appeal of watching ESO streams unless it's PVP (see the aforementioned performance issues for why that has its issues). Why would I want to watch someone else quest when I can quest for myself?

PvP definitely makes much more interesting viewing than quest-related PvE, but group PvE-- vet dungeons and trials-- can also be very fun to watch. However, PvP can be unpleasant to watch if the streamer is constantly griping about the game, and one of the "end-game vet PvE" streamers I was following came across as a braggart, which was a turnoff. PvP streamers can also come across that way. Not all PvP and end-game PvE streamers are like that, but some are. The ones who don't spend a lot of time bragging about their builds and all the content they've cleared, and who don't talk trash about their opponents or fellow group members, can be a great deal of fun to watch.

On the other hand, I don't think I've ever watched a casual ESO streamer bragging about what an awesome housing decorator, or role-player, or overland quester, or master crafter they are; they just stream themselves having fun doing whatever it is they enjoy doing in the game, and a lot of them also spend a good chunk of their stream time chatting with their viewers.

I think streamers who show solo PvE questing are either going through the alliance, guild, and zone questlines because they are playing on one of their many alts and are working on acquiring skill points and achievements, or because they're showing the game to people who aren't familiar with it yet. A lot of ESO streamers are doing the latter right now because of the "World Plays ESO" celebration going on.

SilverBride

Kendaric wrote: »

It would feel a lot more like a TES game, if classes were implemented differently. That is actually my main gripe with ESO. The class system they have chosen is simply too rigid and limited.

Mind you, I don't expect ESO to play the same as TES 1-5 (or Battlespire) but I think it would have been possible to get closer to the TES feel. Changing how classes and magic work would have been a step in the right direction, for example.
I'm fine with the variety of activities provided and One Tamriel was definitely a step in the right direction, but it's just hard to look at ESO and realizing what could have been.

I can't argue with you there. The classes could definitely could use some work, and the Vampire rework was less than stellar. But all in all I think it's been fairly successful.

Malthorne

I love ESO, but at the same time I’m realistic about the current state of the game. It’s just not good enough to appeal to a massive audience. The performance, the combat, the yo yo balancing, the recent writing/storytelling, and all the other major issues listed in these forums have been mostly getting worse since 2018ish.

It’s like the higher ups at ZOS don’t care about creating an incredible experience for its players. They are more than fine milking the whales for $130 houses along with all the other convenience items usually associated with free to play games. I’m not anti-cash shop btw. It’s just obvious where the priority is for ZOS.

Contrast that with FFXIV. Shadowbringers writing from its 5.0 launch through 5.3 was simply stellar. The story in an mmo was better than most single player games in the last decade. The developers have made clear that they care about their players. Not just through words, but by their actions. And they have been building momentum over the course of the expansion to the point that they had to halt digital sales because too many people were playing the game... which was met with an apology from Square Enix this morning.

Is FFXIV perfect? No. But it is doing so much right at the moment. They are reaping the huge benefits of what comes with creating a game that puts the player experience first. I hope ZOS is watching how Yoshi P and square are handling FFXIV at the moment. They could learn a lot, and it would be to the benefit of everyone.

SirPaws

I don't know whether ESO is successful or not at attracting their target audience, but it always surprises me these days when I come across people dismissing the game despite claiming to be TES fans. A few cite the lack of immersion as being the reason they're put off by ESO, others say the combat, while others claim it's the monetization aspect and ruthlessness of the crown store.

It's been a while since I was a new player, but I remember my frustrations and can empathise with a few of their sentiments. I think too much is outsourced to the community and that the learning curve can be too steep - if a player has to leave the game and research in order to understand something, it can't be good for the game. Hell, real life meant I had to take a long break after the CP update last year. When I got back to the game and looked at my CP, I was lost. Luckily, lots of great content creators were there to fall back on and guide me, but the question remains in my mind whether that is good or bad.

Immersion is a bit harder to understand, and part of me wonders how much of that is less about not getting immersed but being constantly reminded that other's have better things. If there is any truth to that feeling, then the CS surely exacerbates it. I had a friend who tried the game and really wanted a Sovngarde apex mount from the crates. There was no easy way for them to get that mount, or that if they were to get lucky enough, no way of guaranteeing they'd get the exact one they wanted.

That creates a resentment. Consciously or not, a player with that frustration is battling with themselves, especially if they feel the crate system is unethical. They want it but refuse to break their moral code, yet are surrounded by people riding the object of their desire. How can they have a positive view of the game when they're not allowed to buy what they want when they want it?

Immersion wouldn't be so much of a problem if they could as there would be immediate gratification and the ability to start playing the character they want right off the bat. I might be totally off-base and the data analysts know how wrong I am, but even a long time player like me gets frustrated at having to wait until I'm told I'm allowed to buy something. I'm an adult with a disposable income, am accustomed to the freedom of being able to make my own mind up and get the things I want. Yet not in ESO, and I resent that.

I think these things stand in the way of being able to appreciate the things the game does well. The base game has its problems but the story and acting in the MQ is still really good, while the lore adds so much to the setting and only got better and better with each expansion from Orsinium through to Southern Elsweyr.

That said, I cant shake the feeling ESO is dumbing down, though. In the last two years, only Markarth has delivered the level of depth and complexity I've come to expect from a major update. I can overlook overland content being too easy if I'm invested in a story, but otherwise the lack of challenge leaves me jaded. Again, I might be in the minority, but I genuinely enjoy meaningful dialogue: The opportunity of learning something new or uncovering a secret, hint, or glimmer of depth is engaging, but both Greymoor and Blackwood seem to have fallen into the trap of giving me reams of dialogue but nothing to really pique my interest. If I need to spend five minutes talking to a character in order to exhaust all dialogue points, I need to be leaving richer than when I started. I need to have learned something, or been given fresh insight into the setting, or had my perspectives challenged, or just simply entertained.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and appreciate all the hard work the developers and writers put into it. I always find something I enjoy which justifies my time and money, even if those enjoyable things seem less than they once were. I'm neither a writer nor developer so can only vaguely empathise with the pressure they must feel to release content to a tight schedule. Part of me suspects those very deadlines could well be the heart of the issue.

FlopsyPrince

rpa wrote: »

Because it's a MMO. Other genre audiences overlap a bit but are definitely not same.

Look at all the attention FF XIV is getting now, with lots of subs.

None of the WoW Exodus is going to ESO. Shows you the marketing is poor, among other things. (Not being flexible at transferring purchased items across platforms doesn't help make some of us who would be natural helpers to want to push things either!)

FlopsyPrince

colossalvoids wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

ESO seems to be the most successful MMO nobody talks about.

But when they do, it's usually not favorably. #1 reason I read again and again why people don't play is that the combat looks like crap. All our staunch defenders of animation canceling and fAsT-pAcEd CoMbAt might not be bothered by it, but the general audience is.

Funny enough the only place I hear about "how bad the combat is" are eso forums from same bunch of people over and over again.

I am getting really annoyed now at the number of times I should be attacking on the PC and just end up standing there doing nothing for some reason. Did my staff misfire? That is bad combat.

Supreme_Atromancer

Well, I'm an end-game PvPer and an end-game PvEer AND a "general TES fan", having jumped into ESO because of the franchise 7 years ago.

I don't agree that Skyrim players are the only ones ZOS are trying to attract. A huge amount of the way the game is balanced is around the needs of a primarily MMO audience. As has been mentioned, the TES class system was done away with because ZOS, in their wisdom decided no one playing THEIR game would ever want to play an orc barbarian or a frost mage. We instead have a system built around simple, iconic colour system and abstract power sources that don't feel anything like Skyrim or any Elder Scrolls game. And the one saving grace that might have given us "Elder Scrolls people" the opportunity to ignore the whacky class system and play a proper elder-scrollsey mage -Spell Crafting- is so far off their radar now that they actively *groan* when their "elder scrolls" fans ask what happened to that promise. Why? Because they need to balance the game for an MMO audience and as the forums will tell you over and over: there's no room for anything fun or interesting because absolute balance cannot handle new things.

Can you "play how you want" in a dungeon? No. The meta community owns dungeons, and if you aren't completing content in the most efficient way possible, you are wasting meta-game player's precious time. Can you play as a frost mage? Well gimp yourself and ignore two thirds of the warden animals-healing-vaardenfell abomination and use the staff that zos decided belonged to tanking, and for all that be prepared to cop crap in dungeons. Want to queue up as a burly, magic-eschewing nord warrior with the rest of the "skyrim fans that are the only ones being designed for?" You're going to be laughed right out of the dungeon.

trackdemon5512

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Lack of Advertising.

Skyrim, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft all had/have significant presences in advertisements and media. ESO has ZILCH.

More aptly, Bethesda and Zenimax are TERRIBLE at marketing. They eschew communicating not only with their own player base but also with engaging in active dialogue with gaming publications. That kind of thing may have been fine a decade ago but in today’s world where Steam, Microsoft, and Sony offer so many notable free/cheap game experiences ESO and other Zenimax games are overshadowed and lost.

You know what got a lot of casual people into Skyrim? The commercials with the Skyrim Main Theme. Much like Gears of War “Mad World” it captivated those who saw and made them want it. ESO has nothing close to a single definable social or media moment after seven years that can draw players to and corral them around the game.

Well, ZoS took out a Super Bowl Ad for Morrowinds release. I've never seen WoW have a Super Bowl commercial.
What got people into Skyrim was it was just a great game. Period.
(I prefer TES3 myself, but Skyrim was ok).
Just my two drakes.
Huzzah!

You see virtually no promotion of ESO. A Super Bowl commercial is nothing if it doesn’t grab attention AND keep it.

ESO players may think they see advertisements but that’s because ZOS markets almost exclusively to them. Streams, announcements, emails.

But compare that to WOW and FFXIV. Both have feature upon feature, new updates, and advertisements plastered across websites like IGN, Kotaku, Polygon, and Eurogamer. Both have regular articles that look at life in those games between major updates. Tales of a lack of housing crisis in FFXIV, level squashing and the community of WOW and WOW Classic. Players interacting with players. EVE Online players engaging in multimillion dollar wars.

Skyrim’s runaway success is a major outlier amongst the other Elder Scrolls titles. Oblivion and Morrowind sold nowhere near as well in total nor on their respective consoles, accounting for Skyrim being rereleased several times over. With ESO people won’t invest in getting a title that they hear nothing about.

Parasaurolophus

There are several main problems for me with this game:
1) Casual. No, too much casual overland. So much has been said about it that I don't see the point in repeating it all here. I'll just say that even after One Tamriel, this game still hasn't turned into Skyrim Online.
2) Few people talk about this, but this is the first time I see that there is too much skill gap between players. Someone gets the most difficult triple achievements from dungeons without heals. Someone cannot go through normal dungeons without a tank and heal. And this is not a problem for beginners. I often see 1.5k + cp players who do not understand how to play at all, do small dps and have the wrong setups. It is sad. It is for this reason that seasoned players never use the veteran group tool. It just turns into torment, and it's better not to even try about DLC HM. Overland is too easy, dungeons and trials are too complex. Nobody wants to play with newbies after the first dls dungeon is bursted with experienced players. This game has created a competitive pve.
3) Farming weapons in dungeons is the biggest torture in this game. Medusa indefno staff, bsv staff and many other weapons.

Destai

SirPaws wrote: »

I don't know whether ESO is successful or not at attracting their target audience, but it always surprises me these days when I come across people dismissing the game despite claiming to be TES fans. A few cite the lack of immersion as being the reason they're put off by ESO, others say the combat, while others claim it's the monetization aspect and ruthlessness of the crown store.

It's been a while since I was a new player, but I remember my frustrations and can empathise with a few of their sentiments. I think too much is outsourced to the community and that the learning curve can be too steep - if a player has to leave the game and research in order to understand something, it can't be good for the game. Hell, real life meant I had to take a long break after the CP update last year. When I got back to the game and looked at my CP, I was lost. Luckily, lots of great content creators were there to fall back on and guide me, but the question remains in my mind whether that is good or bad.

Immersion is a bit harder to understand, and part of me wonders how much of that is less about not getting immersed but being constantly reminded that other's have better things. If there is any truth to that feeling, then the CS surely exacerbates it. I had a friend who tried the game and really wanted a Sovngarde apex mount from the crates. There was no easy way for them to get that mount, or that if they were to get lucky enough, no way of guaranteeing they'd get the exact one they wanted.

That creates a resentment. Consciously or not, a player with that frustration is battling with themselves, especially if they feel the crate system is unethical. They want it but refuse to break their moral code, yet are surrounded by people riding the object of their desire. How can they have a positive view of the game when they're not allowed to buy what they want when they want it?

Immersion wouldn't be so much of a problem if they could as there would be immediate gratification and the ability to start playing the character they want right off the bat. I might be totally off-base and the data analysts know how wrong I am, but even a long time player like me gets frustrated at having to wait until I'm told I'm allowed to buy something. I'm an adult with a disposable income, am accustomed to the freedom of being able to make my own mind up and get the things I want. Yet not in ESO, and I resent that.

I think these things stand in the way of being able to appreciate the things the game does well. The base game has its problems but the story and acting in the MQ is still really good, while the lore adds so much to the setting and only got better and better with each expansion from Orsinium through to Southern Elsweyr.

That said, I cant shake the feeling ESO is dumbing down, though. In the last two years, only Markarth has delivered the level of depth and complexity I've come to expect from a major update. I can overlook overland content being too easy if I'm invested in a story, but otherwise the lack of challenge leaves me jaded. Again, I might be in the minority, but I genuinely enjoy meaningful dialogue: The opportunity of learning something new or uncovering a secret, hint, or glimmer of depth is engaging, but both Greymoor and Blackwood seem to have fallen into the trap of giving me reams of dialogue but nothing to really pique my interest. If I need to spend five minutes talking to a character in order to exhaust all dialogue points, I need to be leaving richer than when I started. I need to have learned something, or been given fresh insight into the setting, or had my perspectives challenged, or just simply entertained.
....

Honestly, it needs to dumb down a little in some areas, just not in story-telling. If @ZOS_RichLambert is going to tout how valuable community is and how flexible the skills and combat are - well animation cancelling is in direct conflict with that. It honestly stifles the ability for people to enjoy a lot of content and explore non-conventional builds in a group setting. The meta's dictating the game. A lot of people express that. On here, on reddit, in guild chats, all over.

And I agree, the timed sales are just so unattractive. There's been some things in there I really want, but nope, I refuse. If you can't leave it in, i can't buy it sorry. So you're not the only one that resents that. There's been so many times where I see something that I'd buy from the crown store, but can't, because it's not available. And I don't want to wait for endeavors or whatever else. I want to literally give ZOS money for something and I can't. That discourages me from wanting to invest in the game beyond basics like outfit slots and bank slots. @ZOS_RichLambert Hope you're listening!

Soulshine

To be perfectly frank here, I am glad that it doesn't "appeal to the general TES fan or the greater gaming public."

I have been here since the beginning, actually since even before since I was in beta. Seen a lot of changes in the game, many that have been quite good, many that have been and still are terrible.

Yet the one constant has been our player community and the way we have weathered all that, along with some amazing trial experiences when they were new, and pvp battles which make my time in the game worth it.

If I want a "true MMO" and real raids, etc., I do have plenty of other games to play and do. So that would make me part of "the greater gaming public" as well as an ESO player.

Having a one game to rule them all... so to speak, lol... is really not especially realistic let alone feasible. ALL mmo's fail at providing the right fit of every thing for every one. They excel at niche offerings of some type or another and depending on that type, their audiences will ebb and flow.

From a business standpoint, the game has been a massive success - a surprising accomplishment since in the beginning it seemed it would completely flop. Eight years later and the ship is solid on that score.

I get that you are disappointed with the larger elements you listed and why, I just don't agree that they are what makes a game viable or successful over the long term. ESO never really was a game made for a mass audience to begin with, so the fact we have even grown to the size we are now speaks volumes on how they have manage to direct a wide scope of appeal across many types of players, including many TES players who are here - one of my guilds is full of them.

An btw, regarding Twitch, I am a supporter of Deltia and Xynode both (go Nuggets; go Ninjas!), who not only have awesome streams of PVE and PVP content, but host many other Twitch streamers. They have produced YT content for years and, along with many others I won't all list here, have helped to build awareness of ESO and engage new players for giving much effort and heart in what they do.

SkaraMinoc

Even if ESO if very focused on Solo PVE, it's still an MMO and that is not the same as a singleplayer RPG like Skyrim. When you add other players to your game it changes the experience entirely. Look at Fallout 76 compared to Fallout 4.

Also, MMOs tend to get a bad reputation due to low quality, repetitiveness, and the game shutting down within a year or two after launch.

Folkb

Probably because it doesn't feel open even with one tamriel. A good chunk of the game is still the base map which suffers horribly by being very much on rails and there's plenty of places you can't traverse and maps feel pretty small.

If the game was more open and offered more random exploration people might like it more.

Also cyrodiil is pretty fail overall with lag and an outdated seige system that was innovative in 2001 with DAOC.

Gaebriel0410

Having played about every TES game since Arena, I'm pretty sure I'm part of the 'general TES fanbase' the OP talks about, and they definitely captivated me. I daresay this became my favourite Elder Scrolls game, because the world is ridiculously huge and diverse (and for the first time ever, elves don't look like they're from outer space or call of the chthulhu).

Sure, being an MMO means you can't have some stuff that only works in singleplayer games, but imo they've done a stellar job with immersion, quest writing, dialog, voice acting, world design and everything. It's why it's been my fave online game since it came out, as it has all the detail and exploration of the mainline TES games.

ESO might not have the same sudden influx from former WoW players as FF14 currently has, but that's because it's an entirely different game. FF14 and WoW are very similar games in style, both very traditional MMO's, where ESO is not.

If I would try to find a game to escape Sylvanas Sue and still satisfy my WoW cravings, I'd go for FF14 too without a doubt. In fact I've played it now and then, very fun game. But it's almost a different genre, to me the only similarity to ESO is that they're both online RPG's really.

I just enjoy ESO for being ESO, I wouldn't want them to try and be more like other games.

Amottica

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Interesting thread to check out

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/nivamy/elder_scrolls_online_creative_director_reflects/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

That thread does not change the fact ESO is very popular and doing well, as many have pointed out. Many that are TES fans as well as new to the IP enjoy this game.

Faulgor

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Well, I'm an end-game PvPer and an end-game PvEer AND a "general TES fan", having jumped into ESO because of the franchise 7 years ago.

I don't agree that Skyrim players are the only ones ZOS are trying to attract. A huge amount of the way the game is balanced is around the needs of a primarily MMO audience. As has been mentioned, the TES class system was done away with because ZOS, in their wisdom decided no one playing THEIR game would ever want to play an orc barbarian or a frost mage. We instead have a system built around simple, iconic colour system and abstract power sources that don't feel anything like Skyrim or any Elder Scrolls game. And the one saving grace that might have given us "Elder Scrolls people" the opportunity to ignore the whacky class system and play a proper elder-scrollsey mage -Spell Crafting- is so far off their radar now that they actively *groan* when their "elder scrolls" fans ask what happened to that promise. Why? Because they need to balance the game for an MMO audience and as the forums will tell you over and over: there's no room for anything fun or interesting because absolute balance cannot handle new things.

Can you "play how you want" in a dungeon? No. The meta community owns dungeons, and if you aren't completing content in the most efficient way possible, you are wasting meta-game player's precious time. Can you play as a frost mage? Well gimp yourself and ignore two thirds of the warden animals-healing-vaardenfell abomination and use the staff that zos decided belonged to tanking, and for all that be prepared to cop crap in dungeons. Want to queue up as a burly, magic-eschewing nord warrior with the rest of the "skyrim fans that are the only ones being designed for?" You're going to be laughed right out of the dungeon.

Very on-point. 7 years later it's still completely baffling to me how they missed virtually all marks of what people would expect from an Elder Scrolls title. Forget the trappings of the MMO genre for a moment, of the 4 base classes only 2 are from previous TES games (which had 18-21), Nightblade and Sorcerer, and the Sorcerer is unlike heavily armored TES Sorcerers. It would have been trivial to call the Templar a Crusader, Monk or Pilgrim for example, but they didn't even do that. There are recognizable crafting materials in TES, like Glass and Ebony, but their crafting system is so convoluted that Ebony is the least used material out of all. Not to mention Enchanting is a total departure from trapping souls and binding them to objects like in TES. I could go on...

Besides blaming the obvious higher ups at ZOS, Matt Firor and Paul Sage at the time, I think this is also a blunder by Todd Howard at BGS and Todd Vaughn at Bethesda Softworks. When they sat down with Firor to hammer out what ESO could look like, they should have established more firm ground rules for a game with the Elder Scrolls IP. But outside of certain parts of the lore they gave Firor pretty much a chèque blanc.

Even as much as in the art style, they should have aimed for a more recognizable TES look. We all remember the marketing with the Nord, Breton and Altmer hero. How do these characters tell anyone that this is TES? They look generic as hell. And the art style in the game itself was incredibly cartoony.
But I mention this because it's not just ESO, the card game TES Legends had the same problem. Elder Scrolls just has terrible brand recognition beyond its name, and they should have figured that out before starting on ESO.

DreamyLu

I can share my experience: I came recently to ESO and play it as a side game only. Even if I found a way to play bringing fun to me , it couldn't be my main game.
Main reason is (for me personally) that there are too many QoL issues. Honestly, without the addons, I would not play it. Additionally, there are a few conceptual things annoying me.

Example of the - for me - main issues:
- The long time needed to load as well as generally to travel and even to go through doors.
- The non sharing of plants/trees/ores.
- The impossibility to use mouse left button to move because it overwrites every standard actions of the button.
- The maintenance sessions
- No trading system (it has to go via guilds and addons).
- And so on...

Don't misunderstand me: I get fun in ESO the way I play it. So it fits to purpose to be a game where I can chill solo with no objectives. However, fact is that all those things above - and several others I don't list yet to keep it short - are a roadblock to me to do more in ESO. And that although I'm an "old" player used to old games!

I therefore tend to believe that the new generation of gamers, used to "modern" games, where everything go fast, and who have so many choice of games available, can't cope with ESO. I suppose that only a minority find in that game something motivating them enough to stay and go for the "struggle" (because at the beginning, sorry but it's really a struggle).
Even older gamers, friends of my, have given it a try and gave up rapidly, with statement that QoL is just not possible for them and they refuse to start the "hassle" (their word) with the addons.

Again, sorry for what I say above, but that's really how I feel about it. It doesn't prevent that I play it and get fun at it, but as said, not as a main game. I can imagine that for many players, that's not sufficient.