Why was WW made so broken?

P4RM3S4N

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

Werewolves are weak, they are only effective against noobs and bad players

1 Extremely susceptible to immobilize/stun.

2 their spammable is very easy to dodge as it is a ranged projectile not a melee attack, which makes it fully blocked by shield-reflecting abilities.

3 They have harder time chasing people than one might think because they can cast gap closer only once per 2 sec not once per 1 sec like other classes

4 No purge

5 insane 25% poison damage penalty

6 + all the direct and indirect nerfs last patch

1.Everyone is susceptible to these
2. This applies to pretty much every spammable that isn't an aoe
3. they get like 40% increased movement speed
4. nightblade... dk... sorc... also have no purge...
5. doesn't do anything when you're fighting someone who isn't using poison
6. "it was nerfed" does not equal "it is balanced" , if something used to do 8 billion and now it does 4 billion, it's still OP

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Yes that heal tooltip shows 20k, in pvp that is equal to a 9k burst heal with heavy passives, but really that's it for werewolf healing. That burst heal also cost just about 6k magicka in order to cast. In heavy armor and with base magicka recovery a werewolf can cast that heal roughly 3 times consecutively before waiting on magicka regen, you are looking at 1 heal every 12 seconds at that rate without crit heals you are at the equivalent of a little over 1.2k healing tick.

Ok but it's a burst heal which is way stronger than a HoT, when you don't have to cast buffs, you have 50k resist plus 10% damage mitigation plus whatever you put into cp, you take very little damage and you don't have to stop attacking to buff, so you just slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure, and if the other guy manages to get you to half you just bam full health again with a single button press, then back to slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure.

edit: not to mention the cyro healing passive giving another 4k to that heal, and with rally we don't get the luxury of spamming it 3 times if we need to, and it's not like mag doesn't come back

Iriidius

without increased magicka pool and regen it is only 2 times in a row and one heal every 24 seconds(12k magicka 500 regen).
I can also have a 16k dizzy swing on a warden with only defensive sets that i can pair with subterrain assault, dawnbreaker and execute. Arctic blast before nerf was 40% heal(health+10% because of minor thoughness)+aoe+healing a team member or stunning enemy for 4300 magicka. werewolf get a 45% heal + 12%heal and a bit regen(one morph) or a damage boost that also invreases your damage received and is not worth the time to cast it(other morph) for 5800 magicka. I think artic blast was not worse than hircines fortitude and on warden i could also slot vigor what i cant do on werewolf.
As a werewolf berserker in greymoor i only got an execute dot that is rather a disadvantage than an advantage because it prevents me from using gap closer more than once, a buff to the heal and major brutality/force all the time. Would probably give them back if i would get resistance again.

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

I run around pvp just slamming pretty much everyone but the second I come across a ww I feel like I might as well not even try. It's actually broken and I honestly think the people saying it isn't either spend their time in zergs and never actually solo, or they play ww.

I am not playing in a Zerg but attacked by zergs all the time and I already stopped using werewolf because of nerfs so i dont have a disadvantage if it is nerfed again.

Chrlynsch

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Yes that heal tooltip shows 20k, in pvp that is equal to a 9k burst heal with heavy passives, but really that's it for werewolf healing. That burst heal also cost just about 6k magicka in order to cast. In heavy armor and with base magicka recovery a werewolf can cast that heal roughly 3 times consecutively before waiting on magicka regen, you are looking at 1 heal every 12 seconds at that rate without crit heals you are at the equivalent of a little over 1.2k healing tick.

Ok but it's a burst heal which is way stronger than a HoT, when you don't have to cast buffs, you have 50k resist plus 10% damage mitigation plus whatever you put into cp, you take very little damage and you don't have to stop attacking to buff, so you just slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure, and if the other guy manages to get you to half you just bam full health again with a single button press, then back to slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure.

edit: not to mention the cyro healing passive giving another 4k to that heal, and with rally we don't get the luxury of spamming it 3 times if we need to, and it's not like mag doesn't come back

Once again werewolf doesn't "get" 50k resistances, those are specific sets. If you have an issue with being able to get up to 50k resistances ask for nerfs to sets not to werewolf.

Werewolf packleader gets an additional 10% damage mitigation, to their transformation, but werewolfs take 25% more damage from poison, and extra damage from fighter's guild, that is little extra protection in a world filled with poison injections, lethal arrows, dawnbreakers, and sub assaults.

The Cyro healing passive for being next to a keep would give you a 1.8k heal increase. That takes that healing average up to 1.41/sec that's with magicka regen factored in.

Werewolf abilities are designed to be 25% more powerful, 25% more costly. This due to having 50% of the active skills of any other playstyle once transforming. This is on top of not being able to use Ultimates while in form.

Werewolf has no ability in their kit to help them remove snares.

Regular builds can gain better survivability by increasing their offensive damage. Werewolf can not, they need to diversify their stats in order to have a chance at survival. This is ultimately why most players choose not to use werewolf, they can gain high survivability, high damage and retain more versatility in their kit.

Stx

No matter how much they nerf WW you will always get players who complain about them.

WWs aren't very good. If they were, more players would be playing them. Notice how you see tons of vampires everywhere?

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Yes that heal tooltip shows 20k, in pvp that is equal to a 9k burst heal with heavy passives, but really that's it for werewolf healing. That burst heal also cost just about 6k magicka in order to cast. In heavy armor and with base magicka recovery a werewolf can cast that heal roughly 3 times consecutively before waiting on magicka regen, you are looking at 1 heal every 12 seconds at that rate without crit heals you are at the equivalent of a little over 1.2k healing tick.

Ok but it's a burst heal which is way stronger than a HoT, when you don't have to cast buffs, you have 50k resist plus 10% damage mitigation plus whatever you put into cp, you take very little damage and you don't have to stop attacking to buff, so you just slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure, and if the other guy manages to get you to half you just bam full health again with a single button press, then back to slam slam slam insane amounts of pressure.

edit: not to mention the cyro healing passive giving another 4k to that heal, and with rally we don't get the luxury of spamming it 3 times if we need to, and it's not like mag doesn't come back

Once again werewolf doesn't "get" 50k resistances, those are specific sets. If you have an issue with being able to get up to 50k resistances ask for nerfs to sets not to werewolf.

Werewolf packleader gets an additional 10% damage mitigation, to their transformation, but werewolfs take 25% more damage from poison, and extra damage from fighter's guild, that is little extra protection in a world filled with poison injections, lethal arrows, dawnbreakers, and sub assaults.

The Cyro healing passive for being next to a keep would give you a 1.8k heal increase. That takes that healing average up to 1.41/sec that's with magicka regen factored in.

Werewolf abilities are designed to be 25% more powerful, 25% more costly. This due to having 50% of the active skills of any other playstyle once transforming. This is on top of not being able to use Ultimates while in form.

Werewolf has no ability in their kit to help them remove snares.

Regular builds can gain better survivability by increasing their offensive damage. Werewolf can not, they need to diversify their stats in order to have a chance at survival. This is ultimately why most players choose not to use werewolf, they can gain high survivability, high damage and retain more versatility in their kit.

You keep repeating these points when I've responded to them like 3 times now and you're just ignoring my responses

P4RM3S4N

Stx wrote: »

No matter how much they nerf WW you will always get players who complain about them.

WWs aren't very good. If they were, more players would be playing them. Notice how you see tons of vampires everywhere?

vampire doesn't replace your entire kit, so obviously you will see more of them.....

P4RM3S4N

Iriidius wrote: »

without increased magicka pool and regen it is only 2 times in a row and one heal every 24 seconds(12k magicka 500 regen).
I can also have a 16k dizzy swing on a warden with only defensive sets that i can pair with subterrain assault, dawnbreaker and execute. Arctic blast before nerf was 40% heal(health+10% because of minor thoughness)+aoe+healing a team member or stunning enemy for 4300 magicka. werewolf get a 45% heal + 12%heal and a bit regen(one morph) or a damage boost that also invreases your damage received and is not worth the time to cast it(other morph) for 5800 magicka. I think artic blast was not worse than hircines fortitude and on warden i could also slot vigor what i cant do on werewolf.
As a werewolf berserker in greymoor i only got an execute dot that is rather a disadvantage than an advantage because it prevents me from using gap closer more than once, a buff to the heal and major brutality/force all the time. Would probably give them back if i would get resistance again.

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

I run around pvp just slamming pretty much everyone but the second I come across a ww I feel like I might as well not even try. It's actually broken and I honestly think the people saying it isn't either spend their time in zergs and never actually solo, or they play ww.

I am not playing in a Zerg but attacked by zergs all the time and I already stopped using werewolf because of nerfs so i dont have a disadvantage if it is nerfed again.

"I can also have a 16k dizzy swing on a warden with only defensive sets" Do you have proof of this?
As well as the fact that it is a melee cast time spammable that can easily be interrupted simply by walking through your opp.
Plus yet again not having to cast any of your buffs allows you like 3 more attacks per cycle to slam pressure on an opp, people just gloss over that like it doesn't matter.

"I am not playing in a Zerg but attacked by zergs all the time and I already stopped using werewolf because of nerfs so i dont have a disadvantage if it is nerfed again." You stopped playing it.. so that if it gets nerfed again you won't be at a disadvantage? How is that an argument for it not being broken

Chrlynsch

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

Fischblut

I'm an average werewolf player. I used to run health recovery build, but after Blackwood it's not as good... So I'm learning new build thanks to this thread Here is some compilation of today's battlegrounds in new build. I certainly have to learn to be "coward" and use Line of Sight when needed, now that my health almost doesn't recover by itself. But I'm still trying to be as aggressive as possible (that's why I am werewolf on that character, of course):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRwj_UX1l4w

Most of time I'm low on resources, or low on health. While I can surprise enemy players from time to time, I perform best only together with allies. When in werewolf form, I am also very useless as far as group synergies/buffs go. The only things I can do for allies: be the meat shield and another target for enemies, and annoy enemies with crowd control.

I think werewolf is okay, but I never support any nerfs anyway

P4RM3S4N

Fischblut wrote: »

I'm an average werewolf player. I used to run health recovery build, but after Blackwood it's not as good... So I'm learning new build thanks to this thread Here is some compilation of today's battlegrounds in new build. I certainly have to learn to be "coward" and use Line of Sight when needed, now that my health almost doesn't recover by itself. But I'm still trying to be as aggressive as possible (that's why I am werewolf on that character, of course):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRwj_UX1l4w

Most of time I'm low on resources, or low on health. While I can surprise enemy players from time to time, I perform best only together with allies. When in werewolf form, I am also very useless as far as group synergies/buffs go. The only things I can do for allies: be the meat shield and another target for enemies, and annoy enemies with crowd control.

I think werewolf is okay, but I never support any nerfs anyway

It isn't cowardly to line of sight when you have multiple people on you, it's usually the smart thing to do.
1 on 1 aggression definitely wins the fights that I've had against werewolves, if you give me time to get stabilized and attempt a burst there's a chance you'll die, but if you keep me pressured and run me out of my resources then you're probably gonna win.
Outnumbered it's definitely about kiting and picking people off as you're able.

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

"Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities - abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies"
that is not a fair tradeoff at all, surprise attack - 2295 stam / howl of agony - 2869 Stamina that's not some unbearable increase that justifies "25% increased damage" (and it isn't just 25%, my stamblade with 7k wpn dmg has a 14k surprise attack, whereas we've established an example of ww having a 16600 howl with nothing but resist sets, if I used nothing but resist sets on my stamblade my surprise attack would tooltip for like 8k... which would be around half that howl)

"Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares."
Honestly I don't really care about the movement speed and I'll concede this, sure it probably sucks to not be able to remove snares, but I still don't think that (even in combination with the increased cost of skills) justifies how strong they are overall. In a 1v1 the inability to remove snares barely even matters though because you are almost assuredly in control of the fight applying insane amounts of pressure and if someone gets away from you just gap close on them. your spammable is ranged

"Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields."
to a solo player the ally/group argument is irrelevant. I'm not gonna argue that cloak (being able to reset a fight whenever you want) isn't extremely strong, but I also don't think another class having an ability that's imo too strong is justification for this class to be as strong as it is either, because none of the other classes have that ability. I also think whirlwind is a broken ability but I'm not going to say ww is balanced because they can't use whirlwind. they get a passive constant 10% reduced damage, which is self preservation, just because they don't have to cast it you neglect to consider it as if it doesn't matter, it does. They also have constant major resolve without having to cast it, these things not only offer free time to go offensive but also save the resources that would normally be used to cast them, giving an unseen amount of extra resources.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.
As I said before they have plenty of buffs that they never even have to cast which grants them plenty of extra resources and time to apply pressure with the insane damage they do

here is 1 skill from the ww skill line:
Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them off balance for 7 seconds.
Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Fracture and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical Resistance by 5280 and damage done 5% for 10 seconds.
While slotted you gain Major Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2629.
This 1 skill gives aoe fear, aoe off balance, major fracture, minor maim, and major savagery. to act like ww are at some disadvantage is ridiculous

I fight these people every single day it's not like I just saw a video and started complaining, as I said I just run around slamming people left and right but every single time I run into a werewolf literally all they have to do is spam howl and if I ever manage to overcome the pressure and do any real amount of damage to them they just press 1 button and return to full health. It's not like it's some super skilled player I happened to run across it's every single werewolf (minus one here or there who came from pve and doesn't know how to press the 1 button to heal themselves) and all they do is spam 1 button, it's not like they're setting up a good burst and catching me off guard.

ToxicOutrage

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

Werewolves are weak, they are only effective against noobs and bad players

1 Extremely susceptible to immobilize/stun.

2 their spammable is very easy to dodge as it is a ranged projectile not a melee attack, which makes it fully blocked by shield-reflecting abilities.

3 They have harder time chasing people than one might think because they can cast gap closer only once per 2 sec not once per 1 sec like other classes

4 No purge

5 insane 25% poison damage penalty

6 + all the direct and indirect nerfs last patch

1.Everyone is susceptible to these
2. This applies to pretty much every spammable that isn't an aoe
3. they get like 40% increased movement speed
4. nightblade... dk... sorc... also have no purge...
5. doesn't do anything when you're fighting someone who isn't using poison
6. "it was nerfed" does not equal "it is balanced" , if something used to do 8 billion and now it does 4 billion, it's still OP

1 except other classes can purge snare/immo, as well as have immunity to immo/stun thru means like med armor skill
2 except other it is melee range while having drawback of ranged
3 it is 30% and everyclass can have a mobility buff of 30%
4 they have other means of leaving combat, except dk
5 and when you are, it is a massive disadvantage + poison is a very frequent damage type with stam classes dominating pvp
6 it was nerfed. it is a fact. that it was op and now balanced is just your opinion. big difference

P4RM3S4N

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

Werewolves are weak, they are only effective against noobs and bad players

1 Extremely susceptible to immobilize/stun.

2 their spammable is very easy to dodge as it is a ranged projectile not a melee attack, which makes it fully blocked by shield-reflecting abilities.

3 They have harder time chasing people than one might think because they can cast gap closer only once per 2 sec not once per 1 sec like other classes

4 No purge

5 insane 25% poison damage penalty

6 + all the direct and indirect nerfs last patch

1.Everyone is susceptible to these
2. This applies to pretty much every spammable that isn't an aoe
3. they get like 40% increased movement speed
4. nightblade... dk... sorc... also have no purge...
5. doesn't do anything when you're fighting someone who isn't using poison
6. "it was nerfed" does not equal "it is balanced" , if something used to do 8 billion and now it does 4 billion, it's still OP

1 except other classes can purge snare/immo, as well as have immunity to immo/stun thru means like med armor skill
2 except other it is melee range while having drawback of ranged
3 it is 30% and everyclass can have a mobility buff of 30%
4 they have other means of leaving combat, except dk
5 and when you are, it is a massive disadvantage + poison is a very frequent damage type with stam classes dominating pvp
6 it was nerfed. it is a fact. that it was op and now balanced is just your opinion. big difference

1. you listed immobilize and stun, not snare. Not all classes have purges, this isn't some drawback specific to ww. As for snares, I've replied to this about 5 times now.
2. it's definitely not melee range, and what drawbacks? Nobody is gonna block it unless they're an actual l2 tank, you don't just stand there and block in pvp, you mean the chance of it getting reflected by a magdk or someone with the snb reflect? That's hardly a justification, lets make all ranged skills hit that hard then? Doesn't really sound reasonable.
3. sure, 30, and other classes have to cast it, spending resources and requiring time not spent healing or attacking
4. your argument was no purge, and my reply was that these classes don't. Nothing to do with leaving combat. Sorc also cannot just leave combat, they can streak, but that isn't the same thing. Also, a ww CAN leave combat with invis pots just like any other class if you want to get technical.
5. the difference between the poison disadvantage and the massive strength advantage, is that the poison thing only hurts you while you're fighting someone who is using poison, the strength advantage helps you whether the person is using poison or not. this isn't balance.
6. never said it wasn't nerfed, also never said it's balanced. Currently advocating for the position that it's broken and needs balanced. I assume what you meant to say is that me thinking it's broken is my opinion. Yeah. It is. Because it's broken. Just because "it was worse before" doesn't mean it's not broken now. as I said before, if you make my characters do 8 billion damage for 10 seconds, and then nerf it to 4 billion damage, if your argument is valid, then my character no longer needs nerfed and is balanced because "it was nerfed."

Chrlynsch

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

"Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities - abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies"
that is not a fair tradeoff at all, surprise attack - 2295 stam / howl of agony - 2869 Stamina that's not some unbearable increase that justifies 25% increased damage

"Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares."
Honestly I don't really care about the movement speed and I'll concede this, sure it probably sucks to not be able to remove snares, but I still don't think that (even in combination with the increased cost of skills) justifies how strong they are overall. In a 1v1 the inability to remove snares barely even matters though because you are almost assuredly in control of the fight applying insane amounts of pressure and if someone gets away from you just gap close on them. your spammable is ranged

"Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields."
to a solo player the ally/group argument is irrelevant. I'm not gonna argue that cloak (being able to reset a fight whenever you want) isn't extremely strong, but I also don't think another class having an ability that's imo too strong is justification for this class to be as strong as it is either, because none of the other classes have that ability. I also think whirlwind is a broken ability but I'm not going to say ww is balanced because they can't use whirlwind. they get a passive constant 10% reduced damage, which is self preservation, just because they don't have to cast it you neglect to consider it as if it doesn't matter, it does. They also have constant major resolve without having to cast it, these things not only offer free time to go offensive but also save the resources that would normally be used to cast them, giving an unseen amount of extra resources.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.
As I said before they have plenty of buffs that they never even have to cast which grants them plenty of extra resources and time to apply pressure with the insane damage they do

here is 1 skill from the ww skill line:
Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them off balance for 7 seconds.
Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Fracture and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical Resistance by 5280 and damage done 5% for 10 seconds.
While slotted you gain Major Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2629.
This 1 skill gives aoe fear, aoe off balance, major fracture, minor maim, and major savagery. to act like ww are at some disadvantage is ridiculous

I fight these people every single day it's not like I just saw a video and started complaining, as I said I just run around slamming people left and right but every single time I run into a werewolf literally all they have to do is spam howl and if I ever manage to overcome the pressure and do any real amount of damage to them they just press 1 button and return to full health. It's not like it's some super skilled player I happened to run across it's every single werewolf (minus one here or there who came from pve and doesn't know how to press the 1 button to heal themselves) and all they do is spam 1 button, it's not like they're setting up a good burst and catching me off guard.

To be honest it seams like your build just struggles against werewolf and that is OK. You really just can't trade blows with a werewolf and think you will come out on top. NB brawler has taken a hit over the last couple builds and are simply outmatched by stam wardens, dks, and necros.

Sometimes balance is rock_paper_scissors, hell man if werewolf is OP just backbar it on your stamblade and break it out to take care of the beasts that you come across. As a werewolf main stamblades are one of the trickiest to fight against when they are played well, and a duo of them can make quick work of a pack of wolves working together picking them off.

Try werewolf, you might actually like it, and at the very least you will be able to understand their shortcomings and how to exploit them.

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

"Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities - abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies"
that is not a fair tradeoff at all, surprise attack - 2295 stam / howl of agony - 2869 Stamina that's not some unbearable increase that justifies 25% increased damage

"Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares."
Honestly I don't really care about the movement speed and I'll concede this, sure it probably sucks to not be able to remove snares, but I still don't think that (even in combination with the increased cost of skills) justifies how strong they are overall. In a 1v1 the inability to remove snares barely even matters though because you are almost assuredly in control of the fight applying insane amounts of pressure and if someone gets away from you just gap close on them. your spammable is ranged

"Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields."
to a solo player the ally/group argument is irrelevant. I'm not gonna argue that cloak (being able to reset a fight whenever you want) isn't extremely strong, but I also don't think another class having an ability that's imo too strong is justification for this class to be as strong as it is either, because none of the other classes have that ability. I also think whirlwind is a broken ability but I'm not going to say ww is balanced because they can't use whirlwind. they get a passive constant 10% reduced damage, which is self preservation, just because they don't have to cast it you neglect to consider it as if it doesn't matter, it does. They also have constant major resolve without having to cast it, these things not only offer free time to go offensive but also save the resources that would normally be used to cast them, giving an unseen amount of extra resources.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.
As I said before they have plenty of buffs that they never even have to cast which grants them plenty of extra resources and time to apply pressure with the insane damage they do

here is 1 skill from the ww skill line:
Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them off balance for 7 seconds.
Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Fracture and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical Resistance by 5280 and damage done 5% for 10 seconds.
While slotted you gain Major Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2629.
This 1 skill gives aoe fear, aoe off balance, major fracture, minor maim, and major savagery. to act like ww are at some disadvantage is ridiculous

I fight these people every single day it's not like I just saw a video and started complaining, as I said I just run around slamming people left and right but every single time I run into a werewolf literally all they have to do is spam howl and if I ever manage to overcome the pressure and do any real amount of damage to them they just press 1 button and return to full health. It's not like it's some super skilled player I happened to run across it's every single werewolf (minus one here or there who came from pve and doesn't know how to press the 1 button to heal themselves) and all they do is spam 1 button, it's not like they're setting up a good burst and catching me off guard.

To be honest it seams like your build just struggles against werewolf and that is OK. You really just can't trade blows with a werewolf and think you will come out on top. NB brawler has taken a hit over the last couple builds and are simply outmatched by stam wardens, dks, and necros.

Sometimes balance is rock_paper_scissors, hell man if werewolf is OP just backbar it on your stamblade and break it out to take care of the beasts that you come across. As a werewolf main stamblades are one of the trickiest to fight against when they are played well, and a duo of them can make quick work of a pack of wolves working together picking them off.

Try werewolf, you might actually like it, and at the very least you will be able to understand their shortcomings and how to exploit them.

I don't just play nightblade, I have 9 characters.

"You really just can't trade blows with a werewolf and think you will come out on top"
Aka.... WW is broken.....

"hell man if werewolf is OP just backbar it on your stamblade and break it out to take care of the beasts that you come across"
The "if it's broken just use it" argument is terrible, why instead doesn't it get fixed?

This game used to be so amazing, a good player that knew how to play could literally face tank and stomp a group of 50 people that didn't know how to play. Nowadays you are unlikely to survive a fight with 10 people spamming random skills on you.

Instead of teaching players how to fight, this game has slowly slid down the hill into playing the game for them. Instead of teaching people how to kill that guy, let's just nerf him into oblivion, lets push damage to insane heights so people just explode. lets add healing negation so these people that just light attack from the middle of a group can kill that guy, because the guy in the middle of a 20 man group definitely needed help against the 1 solo guy. instead of making ww a good and balanced class, let's just make it broken, lets make it so u get rewarded for using a transformation that makes it to where u can be that guy that just spams and actually get kills doing it.

I'm not just saying nerf ww, I'm saying balance it. Bring it in line with other classes. Add more skills for it, make it a 2 bar class that has to keep up buffs and use more than 2-3 skills, give it burst instead of stupid high spam damage. It's not like I just come on the forum and complain when anyone kills me. I'm here because WW imo is genuinely broken and every single time I encounter one, it's an incredibly difficult fight even though literally all they're doing is spamming howl and pressing the heal button if I manage to get them low.

"Try werewolf, you might actually like it, and at the very least you will be able to understand their shortcomings and how to exploit them."
I've played this game for about 5 years, I've played ww, I know what it's like. You spam. Not the most fun playstyle.

Kory

My issue is that there is no access to purge of negative effects in WW form, I've got to LoS and hope for the best while I spam hircine's fortitude. (and by spam I mean repeatedly press the button and hope the skill goes off and then realize my magicka is gone after two uses lol) It would be nice if purge was on Hircine's Rage (the heal that no WW uses), I'd actually would slot Rage.

I'm not complaining though, I'm getting better and do just fine in BGs. But I do know why a lot of WWs build very tanky.

Chrlynsch

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

"Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities - abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies"
that is not a fair tradeoff at all, surprise attack - 2295 stam / howl of agony - 2869 Stamina that's not some unbearable increase that justifies 25% increased damage

"Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares."
Honestly I don't really care about the movement speed and I'll concede this, sure it probably sucks to not be able to remove snares, but I still don't think that (even in combination with the increased cost of skills) justifies how strong they are overall. In a 1v1 the inability to remove snares barely even matters though because you are almost assuredly in control of the fight applying insane amounts of pressure and if someone gets away from you just gap close on them. your spammable is ranged

"Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields."
to a solo player the ally/group argument is irrelevant. I'm not gonna argue that cloak (being able to reset a fight whenever you want) isn't extremely strong, but I also don't think another class having an ability that's imo too strong is justification for this class to be as strong as it is either, because none of the other classes have that ability. I also think whirlwind is a broken ability but I'm not going to say ww is balanced because they can't use whirlwind. they get a passive constant 10% reduced damage, which is self preservation, just because they don't have to cast it you neglect to consider it as if it doesn't matter, it does. They also have constant major resolve without having to cast it, these things not only offer free time to go offensive but also save the resources that would normally be used to cast them, giving an unseen amount of extra resources.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.
As I said before they have plenty of buffs that they never even have to cast which grants them plenty of extra resources and time to apply pressure with the insane damage they do

here is 1 skill from the ww skill line:
Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them off balance for 7 seconds.
Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Fracture and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical Resistance by 5280 and damage done 5% for 10 seconds.
While slotted you gain Major Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2629.
This 1 skill gives aoe fear, aoe off balance, major fracture, minor maim, and major savagery. to act like ww are at some disadvantage is ridiculous

I fight these people every single day it's not like I just saw a video and started complaining, as I said I just run around slamming people left and right but every single time I run into a werewolf literally all they have to do is spam howl and if I ever manage to overcome the pressure and do any real amount of damage to them they just press 1 button and return to full health. It's not like it's some super skilled player I happened to run across it's every single werewolf (minus one here or there who came from pve and doesn't know how to press the 1 button to heal themselves) and all they do is spam 1 button, it's not like they're setting up a good burst and catching me off guard.

To be honest it seams like your build just struggles against werewolf and that is OK. You really just can't trade blows with a werewolf and think you will come out on top. NB brawler has taken a hit over the last couple builds and are simply outmatched by stam wardens, dks, and necros.

Sometimes balance is rock_paper_scissors, hell man if werewolf is OP just backbar it on your stamblade and break it out to take care of the beasts that you come across. As a werewolf main stamblades are one of the trickiest to fight against when they are played well, and a duo of them can make quick work of a pack of wolves working together picking them off.

Try werewolf, you might actually like it, and at the very least you will be able to understand their shortcomings and how to exploit them.

I don't just play nightblade, I have 9 characters.

"You really just can't trade blows with a werewolf and think you will come out on top"
Aka.... WW is broken.....

"hell man if werewolf is OP just backbar it on your stamblade and break it out to take care of the beasts that you come across"
The "if it's broken just use it" argument is terrible, why instead doesn't it get fixed?

This game used to be so amazing, a good player that knew how to play could literally face tank and stomp a group of 50 people that didn't know how to play. Nowadays you are unlikely to survive a fight with 10 people spamming random skills on you.

Instead of teaching players how to fight, this game has slowly slid down the hill into playing the game for them. Instead of teaching people how to kill that guy, let's just nerf him into oblivion, lets push damage to insane heights so people just explode. lets add healing negation so these people that just light attack from the middle of a group can kill that guy, because the guy in the middle of a 20 man group definitely needed help against the 1 solo guy. instead of making ww a good and balanced class, let's just make it broken, lets make it so u get rewarded for using a transformation that makes it to where u can be that guy that just spams and actually get kills doing it.

I'm not just saying nerf ww, I'm saying balance it. Bring it in line with other classes. Add more skills for it, make it a 2 bar class that has to keep up buffs and use more than 2-3 skills, give it burst instead of stupid high spam damage. It's not like I just come on the forum and complain when anyone kills me. I'm here because WW imo is genuinely broken and every single time I encounter one, it's an incredibly difficult fight even though literally all they're doing is spamming howl and pressing the heal button if I manage to get them low.

"Try werewolf, you might actually like it, and at the very least you will be able to understand their shortcomings and how to exploit them."
I've played this game for about 5 years, I've played ww, I know what it's like. You spam. Not the most fun playstyle.

I can definitely have the discussion with you a about expanding the skill line and bringing it in line with other playstyles.

As is Werewolf has access to fewer passives, and fewer abilities at its disposal. If the damage of each ability/functionality was brought in line with human form without giving them access to more diverse abilities and passives their simply would be no reason to use them behind RP.

You can't start saying werewolf is broken and say it needs balanced, and not expect people to think that you dont want them nerfed. I think that is why not very many people are agreeing with you in your thread. If you would have came at the discussion a different way like asking for a redesign I don't think you would be met with much opposition.

Stx

-no cleanse
-no snare suppression (race against time, forward momentum) or snare removal
-no heal that scales with main resource
-no damage shields, no heal over time
-no teleports for escape
-same exact HP and armor as non wolf players
-increased damage from poison and fighters guild abilities... of which some of the most burst in the game comes from
-one bar of skills, plus no ultimate ability
-skills cost much more than normal skills

Yes wolves get a boost to stamina, weapon damage, and 15% to stamina recovery (which most classes get the recovery anyway) Their abilities do more damage to make up for how expensive they are and that they have half the total abilities you would normally have. So yes, with the added passive stats they hit hard.. but they come with a massive amount of weaknesses.

You have to build for passive defense as a wolf to make up for not having any cleanse, anti snare mobility, damage shield, or teleport. You have to build for sustain because your abilities cost a ton. You need to build for stamina and magicka sustain because your only heal costs magicka. You can't cover up all the weaknesses of wolf with one build. It's balanced, and evidenced by the fact that you don't see many wolves out there, or at least I haven't.

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

-no cleanse
-no snare suppression (race against time, forward momentum) or snare removal
-no heal that scales with main resource
-no damage shields, no heal over time
-no teleports for escape
-same exact HP and armor as non wolf players
-increased damage from poison and fighters guild abilities... of which some of the most burst in the game comes from
-one bar of skills, plus no ultimate ability
-skills cost much more than normal skills

Yes wolves get a boost to stamina, weapon damage, and 15% to stamina recovery (which most classes get the recovery anyway) Their abilities do more damage to make up for how expensive they are and that they have half the total abilities you would normally have. So yes, with the added passive stats they hit hard.. but they come with a massive amount of weaknesses.

You have to build for passive defense as a wolf to make up for not having any cleanse, anti snare mobility, damage shield, or teleport. You have to build for sustain because your abilities cost a ton. You need to build for stamina and magicka sustain because your only heal costs magicka. You can't cover up all the weaknesses of wolf with one build. It's balanced, and evidenced by the fact that you don't see many wolves out there, or at least I haven't.

You've made the same arguments that I've replied to like 6-7 times now.

P4RM3S4N

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I can definitely have the discussion with you a about expanding the skill line and bringing it in line with other playstyles.

As is Werewolf has access to fewer passives, and fewer abilities at its disposal. If the damage of each ability/functionality was brought in line with human form without giving them access to more diverse abilities and passives their simply would be no reason to use them behind RP.

You can't start saying werewolf is broken and say it needs balanced, and not expect people to think that you dont want them nerfed. I think that is why not very many people are agreeing with you in your thread. If you would have came at the discussion a different way like asking for a redesign I don't think you would be met with much opposition.

I don't think it would be too much to ask even if I was saying "just nerf it." Not everything needs to be used in pvp. There are plenty of sets and skills that don't get used in pvp. It doesn't make sense to me to force ww to be viable by just making it OP just so people who wanna rp as a ww can do that in pvp. They can do it outside whether it's balanced for pvp or not. However I would rather everything gets balanced, which I don't think would be too hard if zos asked people who actually know how to fight 1v1/outnumbered as opposed to just listening to the zerg.

Stx

Mission accomplished, its balanced. Hence why you don't see many wolves out there. Having a limited kit makes for a simple playstyle but it also makes it very difficult to counter things.

P4RM3S4N

Stx wrote: »

Mission accomplished, its balanced. Hence why you don't see many wolves out there. Having a limited kit makes for a simple playstyle but it also makes it very difficult to counter things.

It's definitely not, just proclaiming it's balanced doesn't mean it is.

Stx

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Mission accomplished, its balanced. Hence why you don't see many wolves out there. Having a limited kit makes for a simple playstyle but it also makes it very difficult to counter things.

It's definitely not, just proclaiming it's balanced doesn't mean it is.

[snip] WW has been nerfed over the last year and you barely see any in existence certainly doesn't mean that it's imbalanced either.

[edited for baiting]

Stx

[snip]
I did. My post listing wolf weaknesses is much more organized and comprehensive than any of your posts in this topic. All you've posted is that wolves don't have to re-cast buffs, so that makes them powerful, and wolves can get a large tooltip on their spammable while being tanky, so that makes them powerful. Most of your posts have incorrect information, and you have yet to actually acknowledge any of WW major weaknesses.

[snip] a WW who can't remove snares, can't stealth, can't teleport, and can't cleanse spamming his spammable at you while being 'tanky'.

[snip] where no one plays tanky builds, because they are out there for most classes. You can get a 20k tooltip on jabs which also procs 7k burning light while having 50k HP and a 24k vigor tooltip on your backbar as a stamplar, and that's easy to do with cheap sets. [snip] where no one combos their abilities.. where a warden doesn't queue up his sub assault, and smacks you with sub assault, stampede, and dawnbreaker all at once. Not to mention stam sorc crystal weapon combos.

But yeah tanky wolves with their auto buffs and 16k tooltip spammables and 5k magicka 8k heals are in immediate need of nerfing, despite AS MANY HAVE SAID, you don't see many wolves in pvp. For a reason.

[edited for baiting]

Stx

[snip]

Kristofer on youtube has a brawler build for stamplar, 50k HP backbar, 7800k wep damage for a 20k jabs tooltip and 24k vigor. I think he has changed it to add vateshran GS (Oh another thing wolves cant use, arena weapons!) and more pen, so the tooltips might not be that high (imagine that, tooltips arent everything).

[edited for baiting]

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings!

We've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting. We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Vevvev

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

Think you missed the point there. A Werewolf cannot get the passives from their weapons and can't use class, guild ,weapon, world, armor, or Alliance War abilities. People think vampire is limiting since it makes all non-vampire stuff more expensive, but it at least lets you use them.

ThePianist

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

P4RM3S4N

ThePianist wrote: »

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

These other classes actually have to use their skills, they have 2 bars which they use at least almost every skill. They don't just press 1 button over and over and do insane amounts of damage when specd completely into resists. If you dump everything into resists in the way the ww I've been using as an example did, you do 8kish with your spammable. That ww does 16600. I can understand thinking I'm wrong about it being too strong but acting like there's nothing wrong with it as it is doesn't make any sense, even if you don't think it's too strong, the build is so shallow you legit just end up spamming.

"Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket."
If they let you use the ww skills globally, they would almost guaranteed tone them way down and I would be happy with that.

"Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over. "
Doesn't matter when you do like twice the damage of a normal character... have 10% reduced damage always, don't have to cast your buffs.. etc...