Why was WW made so broken?

P4RM3S4N

Vevvev wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Pros and Cons of a Werewolf
Pro: Increased Weapon Damage and Stamina abilities do 25% more damage than comparable human abilities.
Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form, abilities cost 25% more than comparable human abilies. Predictable toolkit, loss of weapon passives. Melee only, no sneak or stealth.

Pro: Increased movement speed 30%
Con: no innate way to remove snares.

Pro: Major Resolve always active/10% extra mitigation from packleader.
Con: 25% Extra Damage taken from Poison, extra damage from Fighter's guild abilities.

Pro: Increased resources from heavy attacks/ 15% stamina recovery increased.
Con: Loss of majority of class/guild passives.

Pro: Powerful single target burst heal.
Con: Most expensive single target heal in the game, must invest in health and Magicka regen in order to use reliability for solo survival. Werewolf doesn't have reliable hots, purge or cleansing, dot suppression, projectile absorption, reflection, cloak, or damage shields . This heal is their only source of self preservation. Werewolf has no way to aid allies in terms of healing or damage shields.

Pro: Major Brutality and Major Savagery always active.
Con: Werewolf only has access to one bar in werewolf form, limiting its ability to gain unique damage buffs or survival abilities.

Seams balanced to me. Maybe give it a whirl in game. It might look amazing on paper, but there are reasons that they aren't everywhere.

"Con: Can only use werewolf abilities while in form"
this isn't a con... sorcs can only use sorc skills while they're a sorc, dks can only use dk skills while they're a dk.

Think you missed the point there. A Werewolf cannot get the passives from their weapons and can't use class, guild ,weapon, world, armor, or Alliance War abilities. People think vampire is limiting since it makes all non-vampire stuff more expensive, but it at least lets you use them.

You're right I misunderstood that.

Stx

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

These other classes actually have to use their skills, they have 2 bars which they use at least almost every skill. They don't just press 1 button over and over and do insane amounts of damage when specd completely into resists. If you dump everything into resists in the way the ww I've been using as an example did, you do 8kish with your spammable. That ww does 16600. I can understand thinking I'm wrong about it being too strong but acting like there's nothing wrong with it as it is doesn't make any sense, even if you don't think it's too strong, the build is so shallow you legit just end up spamming.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion of why you think wolves are too powerful other than the two points you keep making? Just because a spec is simple to play doesn't mean it deserves to be bottom tier. Stamplar is a very simple spec, should it be bottom tier? You mention wolves spamming one attack like it's an advantage in some way... it's not. You will actually kill players faster by combining your abilities, like sub assault + stampede + dawnbreaker. Wolves will also run out of stamina much faster than humans if they do spam their attacks. Anyone who has played a wolf knows how incredibly fast wolves run out of resources.

I also wish you would understand that tooltip damage doesn't mean much. You keep focusing on that. For instance, you can get a 16k tooltip on your spammable by stacking stamina/weapon damage.. but the damage you deal with that attack actually increases more by lowering the tooltip but adding penetration.

I can use the same resistance set on my stamina warden as the wolf build you keep showcasing, and using a two hander instead of sword and shield, I got my resistances to 45k. I can still get a 17k tooltip on sub assault, 19k tooltip on dawnbreaker, and 14k on dizzy swing(it would be higher but I built for aoe damage).

So to summarize, tooltip damage isn't everything. Having a smaller toolkit isn't an advantage. I'm not going to list the plethora of weaknesses that wolves have, because I've already done that. Finally, I'll say again.... if wolves were overperforming like you think, you would see a LOT more of them.

P4RM3S4N

Stx wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

These other classes actually have to use their skills, they have 2 bars which they use at least almost every skill. They don't just press 1 button over and over and do insane amounts of damage when specd completely into resists. If you dump everything into resists in the way the ww I've been using as an example did, you do 8kish with your spammable. That ww does 16600. I can understand thinking I'm wrong about it being too strong but acting like there's nothing wrong with it as it is doesn't make any sense, even if you don't think it's too strong, the build is so shallow you legit just end up spamming.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion of why you think wolves are too powerful other than the two points you keep making? Just because a spec is simple to play doesn't mean it deserves to be bottom tier. Stamplar is a very simple spec, should it be bottom tier? You mention wolves spamming one attack like it's an advantage in some way... it's not. You will actually kill players faster by combining your abilities, like sub assault + stampede + dawnbreaker. Wolves will also run out of stamina much faster than humans if they do spam their attacks. Anyone who has played a wolf knows how incredibly fast wolves run out of resources.

I also wish you would understand that tooltip damage doesn't mean much. You keep focusing on that. For instance, you can get a 16k tooltip on your spammable by stacking stamina/weapon damage.. but the damage you deal with that attack actually increases more by lowering the tooltip but adding penetration.

I can use the same resistance set on my stamina warden as the wolf build you keep showcasing, and using a two hander instead of sword and shield, I got my resistances to 45k. I can still get a 17k tooltip on sub assault, 19k tooltip on dawnbreaker, and 14k on dizzy swing(it would be higher but I built for aoe damage).

So to summarize, tooltip damage isn't everything. Having a smaller toolkit isn't an advantage. I'm not going to list the plethora of weaknesses that wolves have, because I've already done that. Finally, I'll say again.... if wolves were overperforming like you think, you would see a LOT more of them.

"Do you have anything to add to the discussion of why you think wolves are too powerful other than the two points you keep making?"
Definitely brought up more than 2 things, not sure why you're so angry, but calm down bud. I'm really tempted to just ignore you after this because you clearly have developed some personal issue with me.

"Stamplar is a very simple spec, should it be bottom tier?"
I have a stamplar. I use vigor, rally, potl, jabs, binding jav, elude, restoring focus, extended ritual, repent, caltrops. I use all 10 of my skills. WW spams 1 skill, MAYBE casts one of their other skills every once in a while but most don't even do that because they don't need to. It sounds to me like you have no idea how to play stamplar if you think these 2 are at all similar.

"You mention wolves spamming one attack like it's an advantage in some way... it's not. You will actually kill players faster by combining your abilities, like sub assault + stampede + dawnbreaker."
First of all, when you do this, you are using your brain and pressing more than 1 button.
Secondly, if I build for full resist like that ww does, and I combo 2 skills that do 8k each and an ult that does idk like 12k + 12k ish, that's all up about 40k. OR I could just be braindead and spam the same button 3 times at about 16600 for around 49800.
Even if these 2 things did equal damage, I would say it's a bit unfair to the person actually putting in the effort to burst someone, when the ww can just spam 1 button and do the same amount of damage. You can't just spam burst, you have to set it up. I understand burst kills faster, that's not the point I'm making. Not to mention you can avoid beetles if you know what you're doing. You can block or even dodge ults, you can't just sit there and block and dodge every single spammable and expect to do anything except run out of stamina and die unless you're a tank.

"I also wish you would understand that tooltip damage doesn't mean much."
It definitely does. It matters a lot more than some of the random points that have been brought up in this thread such as the ww weapon damage passive or other class passives. The tooltip tells you how much damage the skill actually does. If I were to have a passive that gives me 2000 extra weapon damage but my skill only does 10k, whereas you have a negative 2000 weapon damage passive but your skill does 17k, you are still going to do a lot more damage than me.

" Having a smaller toolkit isn't an advantage."
It is when you don't even need anything else because what you do have is so strong. If we are 1v1, and you get snared, if you're hitting me so hard by spamming 1 skill that literally all I can do is heal and dodge WHILE HAVING 50k RESIST AND 10% REDUCED DAMAGE, it does not matter that you're snared. Even if I manage to find an opening to hit you back, you are an actual tank at that point (except you do stupid amounts of damage), and I'm probably not gonna do all that much, and even if I get you low, you just heal with a single button press, and back to spamming.

"Wolves will also run out of stamina much faster than humans if they do spam their attacks."
That ww build I posted has 39k stam, the spammable is like 2800ish, lets just say 3k. You can spam that 13 (assuming you have zero recovery) times before you run out of stam. God forbid you have to heavy attack after 13 16600 hits while having 50k resists and 10% reduced damage, buffs you never have to cast etc...

P4RM3S4N

Oops

Stx

You're right. Not worth continuing the conversation. I have nothing against you, just really trying to understand where you're coming from. Wolves are tanky, but thats about it. They aren't difficult to beat, and are nowhere near the top of the spec tier list for pvp right now. I think you hate the spec because it is has a very simplistic kit, that's what it seems like.

Stx

Stam Sorc. 48k Resists, 42% crit resist, 33k HP - 17600 Dizzy swing, 14800 Crystal Weapon, 21000 Dawnbreaker, 24500 Bound Armaments.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=147857

This isn't even an optimal setup, just proving a point.

P4RM3S4N

Stx wrote: »

Stam Sorc. 48k Resists, 42% crit resist, 33k HP - 17600 Dizzy swing, 14800 Crystal Weapon, 21000 Dawnbreaker, 24500 Bound Armaments.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=147857

This isn't even an optimal setup, just proving a point.

Here is that same build without all the procs active and without buffs you wouldn't have standing out of combat, the ww can also do things to buff damage once in combat (Although again most don't even bother because they don't need to). I did put the points that were in health into stam to try to push the tooltips up.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=365171

Much lower damage on dizzy even though it's a cast time skill that can easily be canceled by walking through the person using it. I understand sorcs can burst, and I'm not happy with the changes to stam sorc either, but if a stam sorc chooses to just spam 1 button, they're gonna do less damage with the same build. They do much less damage per skill. Not to mention they have to actually cast their buffs, which in the long term would subtract a dizzy's worth of damage every time they do. The WW I linked and have been referring to is using eternal vigor which could easily be replaced with the same set on this sorc or any other set. This sorc can also spam about the same amount of times the ww can. The sorc can get resources back, sure, but so can the ww with a heavy attack. The differences are that the sorc can do it away from the enemy and it gives around a 4k heal, doubt the ww would just let the person playing the sorc walk away and dd for free though, and the ww will do damage when they heavy attack. The only real heal on this build is vigor, which is a HoT, and still tooltips lower than the instant burst heal on the ww.

Edit: Also 10% reduced dmg.

Casul

WW is fine. Very underused spec now days. Surprise anyone complains about them after the nerfs to defense and proc set changes.

Iriidius

The 7k werewolf spammable you complained about isnt that high if you play nightblade build completely for damage this patch where defense is bad anyway.
You compare werewolf spamming howl with a burst combo of a tank and use your own numbers for the tank although other players told you their much higher tooltips they have on their tank.
And you say your templer should be better because he uses 10 skills. Which of them do you really need to use to get werewolf strenght and which give you an additional advantage? I think extended ritual, javelin, caltrops(except major breach) and elude(except major expedition) and PotL give you advantages that werewolf doesnt have.
And because you are so focussed on tooltips maybe you should compare 45k hp templer jabs tooltip with werewolf howl and not werewolf howl with tanky nightblade surprise attack.

Xarc

Why was WW made so broken?

Because people cried on forum.

Skoomah

Werewolf damage is pitiful. Thanks forum warriors!

DrSlaughtr

ThePianist wrote: »

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

I think WW is fine where it is but comparing it to vamp isn't really fair.

Vamp has been and continues to be used mostly for passives. Especially in PVP but also in PVE most of the skills are useless because of the high health cost. For a time everyone used simmering to parse and that's about it.

Outside a mist form how often do you see people using the other skills? Not often. Frenzy if you're a bomber but honestly most don't use it because they don't need it.

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them. Sure you could run arterial burst but it's very meh unless you're half dead already.

Meanwhile WW gets 5 skills that are all great + pets. It's not really a fair comparison.

I got no issue with WW and haven't since the WW meta ended. But it is a more active "class" where as vampire is more passive.

Chrlynsch

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

Agreed with what the guy above me said. Werewolf haters want to bring WW to the same standard as other transformation ults such as necro and vampire. But they fail to realize that the only thing that carries over in WW form are sets, armor passives, armor traits, mundus stones, glyphs, racial passives and weapon traits.

Mages guild passives doesn’t carry over, slotted normal class skills doesn’t carry over, fighters guild passives doesn’t carry over, Two handed, Bow, SnB passives don’t carry over.

Imagine if WW skills were globally available like Vampire skills because you want WW “to be like other transformation ults and subclasses”. Classes like gankblades would go through the roof, no longer an A tier but in the god tier bracket.

Gankblades with cloak? Check, a WW Major defile skill on a gank blade? Check, a WW burst heal on a gankblade? Check, a WW unblockable stun on a gankblade? Check...I mean people these days don’t know how to critically think. Keep WW as it is, period.

I think WW is fine where it is but comparing it to vamp isn't really fair.

Vamp has been and continues to be used mostly for passives. Especially in PVP but also in PVE most of the skills are useless because of the high health cost. For a time everyone used simmering to parse and that's about it.

Outside a mist form how often do you see people using the other skills? Not often. Frenzy if you're a bomber but honestly most don't use it because they don't need it.

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them. Sure you could run arterial burst but it's very meh unless you're half dead already.

Meanwhile WW gets 5 skills that are all great + pets. It's not really a fair comparison.

I got no issue with WW and haven't since the WW meta ended. But it is a more active "class" where as vampire is more passive.

I can definitely agree with you on this, I am more than down for boosting up vampire abilities, just need to slightly tame down some of the passives. A vampire should want to use the Vamp abilities because they are powerful, unique, and engaging. One thing is for sure though them mortals are going to be slamming dawnbreaker more often now that is more effective on all targets.

ThePianist

One person’s crusade to nerf WW again is going to result in failure. As a matter of fact, I am betting money that WW will get a buff in the future.

Because it is the least played at the moment. Go into the most populated Cyrodiil server during prime time, when each faction has 3 bars. Observe a bottleneck battle like Lessy bridge, and please tell me how many WW do you see. Little to none. It’s the same reasoning pattern when it comes to old sets that nobody uses, it gets buffed.

Also another reason why it’s going to get buffed, it’s because WW is a paid for subclass. Yeah I said it. Nerf it to the ground= no sales. Figure that one out. “Oh but you can ask for a WW bite in chat” Nah. WW bite in crown store is probably selling the same as race change and alliance change tokens, because people are always changing builds and theory crafting.

DrSlaughtr

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

Chrlynsch

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

?

DrSlaughtr

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

?

Currently on pts if you slot revealing flare you get perma major protection. If memory serves if that's on your WW bar the buff carries over.

Chrlynsch

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

?

Currently on pts if you slot revealing flare you get perma major protection. If memory serves if that's on your WW bar the buff carries over.

Nope, any benefits of slotted abilities do not carry over when Transforming. You can not slot any non werewolf abilities to your werewolf bar. *edited for clarification

DrSlaughtr

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

?

Currently on pts if you slot revealing flare you get perma major protection. If memory serves if that's on your WW bar the buff carries over.

Nope, any benefits of slotted abilities do not carry over when Transforming.

Gotcha. I thought buffs did, like major resolve. I haven't played WW in a hot minute

Chrlynsch

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Well based on pts they very likely will have major protection at all times so...

?

Currently on pts if you slot revealing flare you get perma major protection. If memory serves if that's on your WW bar the buff carries over.

Nope, any benefits of slotted abilities do not carry over when Transforming.

Gotcha. I thought buffs did, like major resolve. I haven't played WW in a hot minute

Before Major Resolve could carry over to your werewolf form if you casted it before you transformed but only persisted for the length of the buff. Currently werewolves gain Major Resolve through their passive "savage strength", this passive used to grant werewolf 10000 armor and allowed them to stack with major resolve by using sets like mighty chudan or a nearby warden's frost cloak.

Amerises

TLDR however it's pretty rare I die 1v1 or 1v2 against a wearwolf, yet a decently played vampire can kill me 1v1. 30% speed boost for quick cloak which provided me 20% aoe mitigation and 6% more mitigation and 6% more damage while proc'ing back bar enchants/poisons, is not "and extra skill I have to cast," in fact I'd be playing pretty poorly to be caught flat footed without it on ... 4 well played werewolves can win at of BGs, but BGs are pretty unorginized, so it doesn't necessarily mean it werewolves, but just a well originated group. Most of them time 1 person can carry a whole team to victory.

ThePianist

People that I know that played WW a lot, are playing other classes. The WW you see running around Cyrodiil are WW mains that have been playing for a long time and are good at the class.

Anyone can use Lycanthropy Gaming’s WW 1vx build but are they going to be good at it? As a matter of fact, go ahead and follow his video build. Go to Cyrodiil and go capture an enemy resource by yourself. Let’s see how you handle fighting outnumbered. Enemy magsorc is throwing frags in the back of your head, enemy NB is flanking you with Surprise attack and spec bow ult, while the npc guards are throwing negates, bubbles and stuns at you every 4 seconds lol. Oh and btw, someone might be throwing meatbags, caltrops and cold fire ballistas while you’re dealing with the things above.

I always like to call battlegrounds as a bootcamp. People have not graduated yet and are not ready for open world pvp. There’s only two classes that can 1v100 or buy enough time for your faction to do something...Magsorc and NB. Go siege Arrius, Glade or Fare by yourself, the 1v1’s will turn into 1v100 in 3 minutes. Werewolf is not up there unless you’re really good at it.

Iriidius

The 16650 howl tooltip you are talking about is only a 13300 tooltip + 25% if the enemy is feared or looking in your direction. Attacks from the flank or from behind arent buffed.
You are also comparing buffed werewolfes and unbuffed chars but normal chars are always buffed in combat. If werewolves are not stronger than unbuffed 1 bar builds then there is no reason to use them. Is the effort to use brutality and armour buff every 20 seconds that big? In group you can get them from warden and dk as group buff.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them.

<.<;

May or May not be that DK.

When people do the roll dodge thing now I try to use Engulfing Flames. Repeatedly casting BfB against a dodge rolling foe isn't good for one's health.

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them.

<.<;

May or May not be that DK.

When people do the roll dodge thing now I try to use Engulfing Flames. Repeatedly casting BfB against a dodge rolling foe isn't good for one's health.

Nope but your average player doesn't understand evasion so they'll keep hitting that skill to their doom.

Vevvev

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them.

<.<;

May or May not be that DK.

When people do the roll dodge thing now I try to use Engulfing Flames. Repeatedly casting BfB against a dodge rolling foe isn't good for one's health.

Nope but your average player doesn't understand evasion so they'll keep hitting that skill to their doom.

True, true... I always saw the vampire's active skills as a more high skilled player's type of ability. Build it right and your sustain goes up, but it's so easy to make mistakes with it. Remember back in no-proc when I no longer had the Pale Order Ring I did very well until I cast BfB and got locked out of cross healing for 5 seconds lol. Had to be more aware of my surroundings before using it.

DrSlaughtr

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Blood for blood? Every now and then a DK will try to hit me with this. I roll dodge them until his health is under 75% then one shot incap them.

<.<;

May or May not be that DK.

When people do the roll dodge thing now I try to use Engulfing Flames. Repeatedly casting BfB against a dodge rolling foe isn't good for one's health.

Nope but your average player doesn't understand evasion so they'll keep hitting that skill to their doom.

True, true... I always saw the vampire's active skills as a more high skilled player's type of ability. Build it right and your sustain goes up, but it's so easy to make mistakes with it. Remember back in no-proc when I no longer had the Pale Order Ring I did very well until I cast BfB and got locked out of cross healing for 5 seconds lol. Had to be more aware of my surroundings before using it.

Yeah the health costs are just flat out for roleplay. Which hurts their usage.

DrSlaughtr

What they could have done was give vamp a fourth resource bar - blood, which fuels the abilities. And make the only way to fill it is by feeding similar to WW.

chuckythexii

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

P4RM3S4N wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Really werewolf has been nerfed pretty hard over the last year. Lots of indirect nerfs and a few werewolf specific nerfs.

They change to their armor buff makes it so stacking armor isn't as easy, they traded their 10k armor buff for the 6kish granted by major resolve that they got in its place. This means werewolves can no longer gain a lot resistance of by pairing it with a set like Chudan, or gaining the additional buff from say a warden.

Health regen was also completely gutted for pvp, Werewolves have been using sets to help provide them with a source of healing over time. Allesian Order was the major culprit, but zos not only nerfed ww Armor but also health regen in pvp. Killing part of the trollish werewolf playstyle.

Heavy armor has also taken a heavy hit, werewolves in pvp have used heavy armor for a lonnnng time due to the magicka sustain, increased health, and increased healing received, these now come at a pretty high cost, with increased roll cost and slower sprint speeds.

Personally I would prefer to see their heal changed to a HOT and scale it off of Max Stamina & Weapon damage. This would help remove more of the troll werewolf playstyles.

Human builds can build survival and damage though stacking their stam/weapon damage or Magicka/ Spell Damage, Werewolves can not.

The only real benefit that werewolf has gained recently is their ability to use damage proc sets, this comes from their bonus to stamina and Weapon damage.

I can agree that the heal becoming a HoT would take them down quite a bit. I'm not really speaking of recent changes either by the way I'm looking at where they were about 2 years ago basically just being OP light attack builds that couldn't really heal themselves but put out enough pressure that it was hard to pressure them back and now being able to kill a capped resist player in 2 or 3 hits while healing from 25% to full with a single button press and still having 50k resist.

I think I mentioned it in my previous comment but they ain't running around with 50k resistances... they have the same resistance capabilities as human players now. And if they do build to 50k resistances they aren't 2 shoting a cap resistant player in 2-3 hits unless the player is running around with 10k health.

Ok but I can pull up the video in my history... and yep there it is... 50k resist and 13.3k + 25% spammable, which would be 16,625 aka 8k+ in pvp unbuffed, which doesn't include the dots.

Link your video, I assume it is from an old patch before their resistance nerfs.

Also you are talking about tooltips, so even in pvp looking at a 16625k tooltip you still need to factor in your enemy's resistances, that would take that hit down from 8k to 4k at cap... that is before any other cp reductions or mitigation buffs.

It's from 17 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bryUxK0uQek&amp;t=425s

and yes that's before buffs and before they lower your resists

I mean that video doesn't seem to show that WW are that OP, the guy has a bunch of gold kit that synergizes very well in a well thought out balanced build but it has its weaknesses. For one no pen, which shows just how squishy his opponents were, the guys he killed in the beginning were almost certainly wearing full gank kit with little to no mitigation.

He got quick early kills because he caught them unaware, that happens pretty often and is by no means unique to WW. Once the enemy got their *** together it was a long drawn out fight where he did nearly die. It's worth noting that one of his opponents was also a WW so if they are so OP why was he so useless? The other two also weren't using their ultimate, so they were playing inefficiently you can see that one of them only used it once in the course of a several minute fight that makes a big difference because they weren't using one of their main advantages against WW, they have ultimates to use and he doesn't. The WW just had a well balanced tanky build that was able to outlast his opponents which should be expected when you choose the right tool for the job and use it well.

I would be reasonably confident that my nightbow could beat him one on one, its a decent build and I do well with it in battlegrounds. It happens to be a hard counter to WW in general and to that build in particular. Builds aren't OP they just do well at what they are made for. It also uses basically just one bar, because I'm still fairly new to the game and simple suits me better than complex, the bar is also simple because my mouse only has two additional buttons so I can only consistently use two skills when under pressure and needing to focus on moving. Simple isn't bad, tbh it takes skill and forethought to set up a simple build that can be used well under pressure and that will serve far better in pvp than a complex build made to get the best theoretical parse on a dummy.

ThePianist

https://youtu.be/yE8F4ZoU5xg

Chuky, I also have 700 pen on my WW and still clap people. WW is going to become even more irrelevant next patch since everyone will be slotting Revealing flare and get major protection for free. But I’m still going to play WW, as I have when I was on pc, and now on console.

The people who complain about WW, especially how it’s not so op this patch, have run into some very good WW players and got reckt. They either get humbled or get mad.

I don’t consider myself as a 1vxer but I do play outnumbered a lot. It’s my choice to go deep behind enemy lines, flag an enemy keep and I expect to 1v100 within minutes. I die a lot, and I clap people a lot. I don’t hate them for tbagging me or zerging me down lol.

Zos could nerf WW to the ground and make it utterly useless. WW mains like me are going to find ways and build around it, but someone will always cry op out there.

As a matter of fact, if you guys hate fighting WW, just play magdk. I hate fighting magdk’s. Their coagulating blood isn’t affected by major defile, 3 patches now where that skill hasn’t been looked at. Every other class I can nuke their healing but magdk’s coagulating blood will always be a problem.

But anyway, that’s my final thoughts.