Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina

Jayroo

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire. Now I don't know what the solution is, but its definitely not nerfing off meta sets meta lords like you don't even bat an eyelash at

MrZeDark

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire

Lol..

First doing what I do takes a lot to survive

Second here is last boss vSS 17.5k sp, parse was *** as this predates me breaking 100k parses - only started doing that early this year with gear, ability, trait changes

Jayroo

MrZeDark wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire

Lol..

First doing what I do takes a lot to survive

Second here is last boss vSS 17.5k sp, parse was *** as this predates me breaking 100k parses - only started doing that early this year with gear, ability, trait changes

This is a trial, and yet again ignoring the fact you are a minority, god you are right, you are a clown
nerfing proc sets is a non solution to the overarching problem

MrZeDark

Here is a more accurate dps parse on non hm last boss. Figured I’d share this before another nay say

MrZeDark

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire

Lol..

First doing what I do takes a lot to survive

Second here is last boss vSS 17.5k sp, parse was *** as this predates me breaking 100k parses - only started doing that early this year with gear, ability, trait changes

This is a trial, and yet again ignoring the fact you are a minority, god you are right, you are a clown
nerfing proc sets is a non solution to the overarching problem

Oh I’m a total clown..

I didn’t ignore it, I acknowledged it -

MrZeDark wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MrZeDark you're in the less than 0.1% of people who are running simmering in trials. The vast majority of even the end game community are not running simmering vamp builds. Because they die.

Oh I agree my Build isn’t run by many. As most people can’t deal with the incoming dmg while doing

MrZeDark

@Jayroo

I don’t think they should nerf it in the majority. They should cap it in the least, for people like me who can stack sp or wd excessively

Jayroo

MrZeDark wrote: »

@Jayroo

I don’t think they should nerf it in the majority. They should cap it in the least, for people like me who can stack sp or wd excessively

interesting, it seems to me as if you were debating with me and other people saying "6500 is too much to reach to get base proc damage" but ok.

anyways your parses mean nothing to me. If you say you have 8k sp, great! Parses don't prove that though. But don't worry I'll take your word for it since again, I could care less since the majority of people aren't you and your 1337 damage is not even what we are talking about ITT anyways

Anyron

MrZeDark wrote: »

Oh and ps - my avg spell dmg in trials is 14k…. So..

@MrZeDark
you can have 20k spell damage - that means nothing.

this is clearly in pve where you can damage yourself to proc that high spell damage with vampire. thats clearly not viable in pvp. damaging yourself in pvp means killing yourself. its not viable anywhere than on gank build.
that spell damage isnt what you can have solo. you are buffed by your group too

that what you posted there was ideal scenario with spell damage pushed as high as possible but its just number. unreachable in normal situation.


show me viable no-cp magicka solo setup where you can reach 6,5k spell damage. that means you can stay and fight , not just some gank build

MrZeDark

Anyron wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Oh and ps - my avg spell dmg in trials is 14k…. So..

@MrZeDark
you can have 20k spell damage - that means nothing.

this is clearly in pve where you can damage yourself to proc that high spell damage with vampire. thats clearly not viable in pvp. damaging yourself in pvp means killing yourself. its not viable anywhere than on gank build.
that spell damage isnt what you can have solo. you are buffed by your group too

that what you posted there was ideal scenario with spell damage pushed as high as possible but its just number. unreachable in normal situation.


show me viable no-cp magicka solo setup where you can reach 6,5k spell damage. that means you can stay and fight , not just some gank build

I commented on SP dips in varying content and agreed twice now that my build is a minority.

Though in a no cp situation, no one has CP which is a fair balance. Your edge is purely in exactly what you’re wearing and skills you use, and your skill as a player.

Your procs will be weaker in that case, like everyone else. They should be weaker..

The_Lex

Developers should never balance around super minority situations and niche builds.

karekiz

MrZeDark wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire

Lol..

First doing what I do takes a lot to survive

Second here is last boss vSS 17.5k sp, parse was *** as this predates me breaking 100k parses - only started doing that early this year with gear, ability, trait changes

I mean is that with ROTPO or not? If so it doesn't count. You won't be able to use ROTPO next patch /shrug. Even content creator like Detia <PvP> or Skinnycheeks <PvE> have mentioned the scaling system doesn't entirely work since stam/mag aren't truly actually equal to each other.

Langeston

regime211

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

I saw a magcro with 8300k spell damage.

Anyron

regime211 wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

I saw a magcro with 8300k spell damage.

And i saw UFO

Langeston

regime211 wrote: »

Arieswar13 wrote: »

As the title says, Magicka builds cannot stack spellpower like stamina builds can stack weapon damage. So do not lump then together. Stamina builds can easily reach over 7k weapon damage. Even in a pve environment, 6300-6400 is pushing the max amount of spell power obtainable. Consider having the adjustments to proc sets scale on a different value of spell power and weapon damage.

To be comparable, it should be closer to the proposed 6574 weapon damage and maybe 5000-5500 spell damage. There is no reason to lump the values together when the magicka and stamina are build to scale differently (armor passives).

I saw a magcro with 8300k spell damage.

And he wasn't wearing proc sets. Point?

MrZeDark

karekiz wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

My argument here is, they don’t care.

They need to balance for clowns like me, PvP, and what is viable in unoptimizable Content (VH, MA). There is a lot to balance beyond our desires of a power curve with in the content we do and subjectively argue - needs to be approved within.

you have a lot of talk talk talk, but no proof, just a dummy cmx, I can smack a dummy on my tank and look good too, REGARDLESS, the solution isn't catering to the minority of people that can pull 8k damage out of thin air on their cheesepire

Lol..

First doing what I do takes a lot to survive

Second here is last boss vSS 17.5k sp, parse was *** as this predates me breaking 100k parses - only started doing that early this year with gear, ability, trait changes

I mean is that with ROTPO or not? If so it doesn't count. You won't be able to use ROTPO next patch /shrug. Even content creator like Detia <PvP> or Skinnycheeks <PvE> have mentioned the scaling system doesn't entirely work since stam/mag aren't truly actually equal to each other.

Without the ring I still break 12k sp on a parse. I do a lot of self healing

marius_buys

WHY am I even surprised, don't tell me the devs don't know what they are doing. THEY KNOW it's much easier for stamina builds to hit the weapon damage requirement than what Magicka builds can for spell damage. LOL the word Balance in pvp is a meme. I challenge any Dev to beat an equivalent Stam build on a Magicka toon. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Anyron

marius_buys wrote: »

WHY am I even surprised, don't tell me the devs don't know what they are doing. THEY KNOW it's much easier for stamina builds to hit the weapon damage requirement than what Magicka builds can for spell damage. LOL the word Balance in pvp is a meme. I challenge any Dev to beat an equivalent Stam build on a Magicka toon. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Do they?
Every patch, every pts is same. Things get overbuffed, then overnerfed. Most bugs from pts goes to live without any fix and most balancing issues is overlooked.

Look at proc sets scaling. They recicled great idea to balance proc sets vs statsets and they completely destroyed it. Procsets were strong before and they make it you can buff their damage above live numbers, sometimes even 200% dmg buff. Just stupid idea. Still not fixed.
Worst thing was health stacking builds to do insane damage and they reworked sets to scale of max health. It was fixed later (partly) just because it was obviously overpowered


There is so many problems in this game that could be easily fixed but they just dont care about it.

Jameson18

I'll just leave this here....

Target:
19,800 armor. (30%+/- mitigation). 50% Battle Spirit.

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 0 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2800

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Basic math is fun.

FlamingBeard

Jameson18 wrote: »

I'll just leave this here....

Target:
19,800 armor. (30%+/- mitigation). 50% Battle Spirit.

Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 0 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2800

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

Basic math is fun.

This math is extremely flawed as it totally ignores Maul and Minor Breach penetration that stam have on 2H builds, and Major Breach from Sword/Shield which is a popular secondary weapon. In addition, spell resistance is much higher on average than physical resistance, but for argument's sake I'll use your false equivalency for my math.

Not to mention light armor (source of that spell pen you're so enamored with) makes you take 1% more damage from stam builds per piece worn, which should also count toward the stam side's calculations since you're putting the two against each other.


Stam:

2974 or 4.5% penetration (minor breach)
+ 3300 or 5% penetration (maul)
+ 5948 or 9% penetration (major breach)
____________________________________________
12222 or 18.5% penetration


+ 4% (4 pieces of light armor worn by mag target; only using 4 pieces because you only need a few to be debuffed a lot)
____________________________________________
~22% damage modifier


Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 12222 Penetration and target wearing 4x Light Armor
Hits Target for: 4600

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

So not only is stam's tooltip even higher, but their base stats give much more healing and base skill damage options than what can be achieved by mag builds building the same way.

By the way, chances are mag builds are reduced close to 0% physical resistance on actual popular offensive builds by minimal penetration investment from stam builds, while most meta builds (whether stam or mag) have way higher innate spell resistance from passives and armor types across the board and will still have usable spell resistance even after penetration debuffs are accounted for, so spell penetration is even weaker than you give it credit for.

Jameson18

FlamingBeard wrote: »

This math is extremely flawed as it totally ignores Maul and Minor Breach penetration that stam have on 2H builds, and Major Breach from Sword/Shield which is a popular secondary weapon. In addition, spell resistance is much higher on average than physical resistance, but for argument's sake I'll use your false equivalency for my math.

Not to mention light armor (source of that spell pen you're so enamored with) makes you take 1% more damage from stam builds per piece worn, which should also count toward the stam side's calculations since you're putting the two against each other.


Stam:

2974 or 4.5% penetration (minor breach)
+ 3300 or 5% penetration (maul)
+ 5948 or 9% penetration (major breach)
____________________________________________
12222 or 18.5% penetration


+ 4% (4 pieces of light armor worn by mag target; only using 4 pieces because you only need a few to be debuffed a lot)
____________________________________________
~22% damage modifier


Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 12222 Penetration and target wearing 4x Light Armor
Hits Target for: 4600

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

So not only is stam's tooltip even higher, but their base stats give much more healing and base skill damage options than what can be achieved by mag builds building the same way.

By the way, chances are mag builds are reduced close to 0% physical resistance on actual popular offensive builds by minimal penetration investment from stam builds, while most meta builds (whether stam or mag) have way higher innate spell resistance from passives and armor types across the board and will still have usable spell resistance even after penetration debuffs are accounted for, so spell penetration is even weaker than you give it credit for.

Obviously not flawed then? Its a base number to display a ratio. Basic math. Which you then did also.

You missed the point, then built further on the point, all at the same time.

FlamingBeard

Jameson18 wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

This math is extremely flawed as it totally ignores Maul and Minor Breach penetration that stam have on 2H builds, and Major Breach from Sword/Shield which is a popular secondary weapon. In addition, spell resistance is much higher on average than physical resistance, but for argument's sake I'll use your false equivalency for my math.

Not to mention light armor (source of that spell pen you're so enamored with) makes you take 1% more damage from stam builds per piece worn, which should also count toward the stam side's calculations since you're putting the two against each other.


Stam:

2974 or 4.5% penetration (minor breach)
+ 3300 or 5% penetration (maul)
+ 5948 or 9% penetration (major breach)
____________________________________________
12222 or 18.5% penetration


+ 4% (4 pieces of light armor worn by mag target; only using 4 pieces because you only need a few to be debuffed a lot)
____________________________________________
~22% damage modifier


Proc Monkey A:
Medium armor. 8000 weapon damage. 10k proc damage tooltip. 12222 Penetration and target wearing 4x Light Armor
Hits Target for: 4600

Proc Monkey B:
Light armor. 4000 spell damage. 5k proc damage tooltip. 19,800 Penetration.
Hits Target for: 2500

So not only is stam's tooltip even higher, but their base stats give much more healing and base skill damage options than what can be achieved by mag builds building the same way.

By the way, chances are mag builds are reduced close to 0% physical resistance on actual popular offensive builds by minimal penetration investment from stam builds, while most meta builds (whether stam or mag) have way higher innate spell resistance from passives and armor types across the board and will still have usable spell resistance even after penetration debuffs are accounted for, so spell penetration is even weaker than you give it credit for.

Obviously not flawed then? Its a base number to display a ratio. Basic math. Which you then did also.

You missed the point, then built further on the point, all at the same time.

Your point was what? That mag builds are worse? Because that's what I helped you prove.

Jameson18

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Your point was what? That mag builds are worse? Because that's what I helped you prove.

Sure did! Thanks!

Tommy_The_Gun

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Yep. You get like 5K pen just by running 5pcs light armour. Medium armour users have to run sharpened weapon just to have 3K. If you want more on a stamina build, you have to use Mauls or lover mundus.

Penetration is probably the best offensive stat in the game. It is worth more than weapon / spell dmg. Besides, when maxed, medium armour gives you 2% weapon dmg per armour peace, so 14% when maxed or 10% on a build using 5/1/1 (Undaunted passive).

The thing about this medium armour weapon passive is that you have to have large amount of weapon dmg stacked for it to be as effective as 5K penetration (or 7K if you run 7 light), so I guess it kinda evens itself out. Besides, magicka can have significantly better healing with procs as it is easier to stack max magicka than max stamina. So again, it kinda eaves itself out...

Tbh, now that I think of it, It is a shame that they did not make medium / light to give universal bonus (higher offensive stat or higher weapon / spell dmg, crit, pen etc).

That way, magicka builds could use medium and stamina could use light - giving us more options.

Urzigurumash

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Spell pen.

Yep. You get like 5K pen just by running 5pcs light armour. Medium armour users have to run sharpened weapon just to have 3K. If you want more on a stamina build, you have to use Mauls or lover mundus.

Penetration is probably the best offensive stat in the game. It is worth more than weapon / spell dmg. Besides, when maxed, medium armour gives you 2% weapon dmg per armour peace, so 14% when maxed or 10% on a build using 5/1/1 (Undaunted passive).

The thing about this medium armour weapon passive is that you have to have large amount of weapon dmg stacked for it to be as effective as 5K penetration (or 7K if you run 7 light), so I guess it kinda evens itself out. Besides, magicka can have significantly better healing with procs as it is easier to stack max magicka than max stamina. So again, it kinda eaves itself out...

Tbh, now that I think of it, It is a shame that they did not make medium / light to give universal bonus (higher offensive stat or higher weapon / spell dmg, crit, pen etc).

That way, magicka builds could use medium and stamina could use light - giving us more options.

Yeah, as we discussed in another thread on this subject, the underlying issue here is that Light Armor has an integer bonus to Penetration, while Medium has a percentile bonus to Weapon Damage. Things don't all scale the same way between the armor types on account of that difference. Of course there are also discrepancies between the weapon passives. Skills are also subject to these same discrepancies, and that has nothing to do with procs, that's an element of overall balance, for better or worse, depending on the build.

Proc scaling was a devised as a way to balance procs against other game elements, like skills. Nobody was complaining about Molag Kena and Simmering Frenzy Proc builds, it was all about Heavy Armor, 40k HP, high regen Proc Tanks. Tooltips do not equal combat text, combat text in a static test does not equal combat text in a live environment.

It seems ideal to us that all proc sets got dual stat scaling like skills, but instead they split procs into two categories. This is a new game element, really. Tooltips and character sheets alone aren't enough to provide evidence that the balance sought by proc scaling has not been achieved - at least good enough to go live and see how it works out. We need evidence from combat testing.

Urzigurumash

One last thought about this -

If more people are seriously thinking about running a Simmering Frenzy build, then great. Sounds like some balance has been brought to the game, and Vamp might have some offensive potential in PvP outside of the Ult. We've all tried Eviscerate or Blood for Blood builds, we all know why we never see them in our recaps.

Procs hit harder in LA armor on live. Nobody has cared or talked about that recently because it didn't matter, people were running proc stacks in Heavy Armor.

Just looking at a character sheet of this new phenomenon of ultra high weapon damage, single proc builds - I can't measure balance if I'm only given one side of the scale.

FlamingBeard

Urzigurumash wrote: »

One last thought about this -

If more people are seriously thinking about running a Simmering Frenzy build, then great. Sounds like some balance has been brought to the game, and Vamp might have some offensive potential in PvP outside of the Ult. We've all tried Eviscerate or Blood for Blood builds, we all know why we never see them in our recaps.

Procs hit harder in LA armor on live. Nobody has cared or talked about that recently because it didn't matter, people were running proc stacks in Heavy Armor.

Just looking at a character sheet of this new phenomenon of ultra high weapon damage, single proc builds - I can't measure balance if I'm only given one side of the scale.

You know why people don't talk about procs in light armor on Live? Because it forces you to take extra damage from stamina builds and it's 100% worse than medium armor offensively.

If you read my post above you'll see that light armor mag proc builds are actually inferior in every function compared to stam proc builds in general (damage, healing, sustain, mobility, etc).

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

It's just like Scalebreaker all over again. Buff dots too high, then nerf them to an EVEN WORSE STATE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE. Now procs. Procs were fine, they buff procs to too high a level, and now... with magicka being realistically unable to use them well, they are again WORSE THAN THEY WERE BEFORE. This has happened so many times by now. This is not balance.

Urzigurumash

FlamingBeard wrote: »

You know why people don't talk about procs in light armor on Live? Because it forces you to take extra damage from stamina builds

That's a separate issue though. Again dual stat scaling was preferred, but instead we got split stat scaling for the two categories of procs. How it's going to work out - relative to the specific imbalances on live regarding proc sets - we can't tell just from tooltips.

karekiz

PA buff and Alkosh debuff should scale off the same system implemented. 7.5K to reach the current value for alkosh and 7.5K to reach the current buff value for PA.